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What I want to know is... If people can be convinced to go to another country and join a terrorist organisation in order to marry an older man they've never met and raise their kids in poverty, why can't I even get a handjob?
While I deplore her stated beliefs, do we know what she’s actually done?
Well we know she saw the horrific crimes against totally innocent people of the kind I posted above on the news and thought "Yeah, that's for me." and took steps to get there to join in. We know it wasn't an impulse decision it was planned.
We know that having lived the reality of a death cult she has no regrets and we know she stayed 'till the very bitter end.
We know she claimed that she was glad an anti Isis fighter was killed because he would have raped and killed - and yet she and her husband did surrender to anti-Isis fighters and they seem to have been well treated.
But yeah, I doubt there will be any hard evidence to convict them of anything in Syria and I suspect very little in the Uk. Membership of a proscribed organisation maybe but was she a member? Did Isis really keep good enough records to prove she was a member? So yeah. Probably innocent of any crime. But that's not really what this is about. We all agree that legally and morally this family are the UK and Hollands liability. All we're arguing about is whether that's a good thing or not. I think it's not because the less bigoted murderers there are in the UK the better AFAIC.
do we know what she’s actually done?
Of course we don't. Doesn't stop the pitchfork brigade though.
What I want to know is… If people can be convinced to go to another country and join a terrorist organisation in order to marry an older man they’ve never met and raise their kids in poverty, why can’t I even get a handjob?
Have Cove stopped making it then Northwind?
Out of breath, you and myself literally have no idea how the young woman got to the position of being unfazed by what she saw and may have taken part in. She may have been conditioned. You don't know who she associated with and whether there was duress involved. What is her state of mind? Hard to say without proper examinations. Since you know the babies name and weight what was her relationship with her husband like, or others she conversed with. YOU TRUTHFULLY HAVE NO IDEA.
You jump to conclusions but don't engage enough in critical thinking.
How do you know what will be going on in the house or classroom in four years time of a child that has yet to be born to a woman you have never met?
Sorry, I should have said, *if* Syria deport the child to the UK with its parents then in 4 years time this September there’s going to be a classroom of Reception year primary School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS and who is probably being told at home that Gay people should be murdered.
How does one go about joining a top terrorist organisation these days?
Some people bring horrendous prejudice to bear on a topic
Hence the question earlier about her getting a fair trial? I reckon with the media coverage your going to have to be an Eskimo to not be a teensy bit biased
School kids who will have a classmate who was conceived specifically to serve ISIS
Has she said that's why she was having the baby? I missed that if she did.
Hence the question earlier about her getting a fair trial? I reckon with the media coverage your going to have to be an Eskimo to not be a teensy bit biased
Also hence my question that if she committed a criminal act and was under the age of 18 would she not be tried as a juvenile and a decision made by a judge rather than a jury? Nobody answered that one.
Also, perhaps you would have to be an Inuit to not have heard of her come a trial, but I would have hoped that there were enough people in this country capable of making a reasoned judgement and leave prejudice at the door on such a criminal case if a jury is required, but going by this thread and what is going on around the country at the minute we may be stuffed on that front.
people are just making * up to suit their prejustice.
Yep. Sadly it doesn't take much these days for someone to put 50p into the *hole and for them to give us all the benefit of their broad moral outlook.
Actually going out there to support ISIS is a crime, and she's expressed no remorse about that, or some of the things she witnessed, the comment about heads in bins bring the obvious one.
If she still has British citizenship, she can come back, and the justice system will do what it has to do.
But I very much doubt she'll be allowed to keep the baby.
How does one go about joining a top terrorist organisation these days?
...and if you were going to join a terrorist death cult, what would the best tyres be?
Actually going out there to support ISIS is a crime
Yup, you're right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I'd have thought extreme homophobia in a women's prison wouldn't go down too well, there's nothing else to do FFS!)
The act of being a member of, or supporting such a group, or wearing an item of clothing such as "to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation" is sufficient to be prosecuted for a terrorist offence.
The Terrorism Act seemed a bit illiberal to me, still does. A jury has to decide beyond reasonable doubt if there's reasonable suspicion! The latter kind of lets you off the former!
Yup, you’re right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause.
You are making stuff up again. Do you have a beef with the judicial system in the country as well? Does your imagination normally run this rampant? No more chocolate milk before bedtime story for you. How would you feel if she ended up in a young offenders Institute? Slobbering over your Daily Mail I expect.
What Morecash writes is all that I and most others would expect. Her apparent lack of remorse may be a mitigating circumstance as is her age and many other factors that would come out during a trial. I am not expecting her to get a palatial council house a 52 inch telly and and £400 a week benefit.
Please tell us the babies name though as I might put £10 on it.
It blows my mind how people can just ignore the things that happened over in Syria and then scold others for having no compassion. Nobody cares about what happened to the yazidis here, same as when they were actually being slaughtered. British government did **** all. Let it slide.
Funny, because I don’t think people are necessarily doing so. I have had a huge problem with it - hence writing to MP’s, writing to businesses exporting and supporting agencies who are assisting victims.
Post-1945, the majority of the international community supported the creation of the United Narions and a new international legal framework.
It wasn’t done for fun. Action was taken following the hardest lessons humanity has ever had to learn.
Are we really prepared to throw away the lessons learnt by people who had literally seen the worst humanity could do - without effective controls?
You are making stuff up again.
I quoted the law:
The act of being a member of, or supporting such a group, or wearing an item of clothing such as “to arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation” is sufficient to be prosecuted for a terrorist offence.
Based on that, rightly or wrongly I think Morecash is right and I was wrong - she does meets that test.
Do you have a beef with the judicial system in the country as well?
Broadly no, all I said was that The Terrorism Act seemed a bit illiberal to me a the time and still does. "arousing reasonable suspicion" alone shouldn't get you 10 years inside, IMHO.
Must admit, I wanted to give the father of one of the girls on BBC a hug though. Poor bloke, seemed a soft type. The amount of hurt that these girls have put their families through is easy to underestimate.
Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I’d have thought extreme homophobia in a women’s prison wouldn’t go down too well, there’s nothing else to do FFS!)
No outofbreath you have not quoted the law. You have created your own little narrative. You have assumed she will be be convicted of a crime, sentenced to 10 years, she will be well behaved and out in half her term. You have also generalised that she will radicalise fellow inmates display homophobic tendencies before being converted to lesbianism as there is nothing else to do in an all female prison.
Have I missed anything?
No outofbreath you have not quoted the law.
Ok, I quoted *some* of the law.
Here's the entire section on support. You can navigate to the rest from there:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/12?view=plain
Must admit, I wanted to give the father of one of the girls on BBC a hug though.
Me to, absolutely heart breaking.
Outofbreath, I think it's probably agreed by all that she'll get charged with something, personally I think it'll be more specific than general association with terrorists. They were high profile, there will be plenty of evidence uncovered about their activities would be my thoughts.
But that's all by the by, in the public arena, there's scant information so it's pure speculation there's really no point in talking about what she'll get charged with, it'll be more than you can come up with after a few googles at the terrorism acts.. I can sit here and think of 100 different scenarios.
My question is, what would you do with her, if she hands herself in at a British consulate?
outofbreath, you are one of the laziest and most easily defeated of posters I have seen on here. Thought I would post your comments again for a laugh below. What have a bunch of women got to do when they are stuck together in prison but become lesbians eh? They have nothing else to do otherwise.
Yup, you’re right and my post above was wrong. Bang to rights. Only ten years though so out in five and lots of disaffected fellow prisoners to convert to the cause. (Although I’d have thought extreme homophobia in a women’s prison wouldn’t go down too well, there’s nothing else to do FFS!)
I notice that whenever I point out an inaccuracy in one of your posts you then have to make an adjustment or correction.
For the third time,
Does your link account for the possibility of a charge as a juvenile?
Does your link say she will be convicted and receive the maximum 10 year sentence?
Does your link say she is guaranteed release after 5 years?
Does your link say she will radicalise fellow inmates?
Does your link say she is homophobic?
Does your link say that she will become a lesbian through boredom?
You know the answer to the above, so perhaps you should navigate it rather than me.
As others note atgray,including today’s press; she is almost certain to be charged. Apologies for pointing this out while you are trying to win your wee personal battle with oob.
Outofbreath, I think it’s probably agreed by all that she’ll get charged with something, [snip] But that’s all by the by,
Yeah, I only brought up the Terrorism Act Stuff to concede the point that there's something she could be charged with after I'd suggested there might not be. Then I got sucked down a massive Terrorism Act rabbit hole. I agree it's all by the by.
My question is, what would you do with her, if she hands herself in at a British consulate?
She's British, she's our problem morally [1] and legally [2], so we'll have to take her back. [5] The only argument is whether this is good news or not. I think not, [3] the fewer people in the UK who prefer a society who throw gay people off buildings to a liberal Western Democracy the better AFAIC.[4]
So that's everything I think about this topic in one post.
[1] Not fair to dump our problem on Syria or anywhere else.
[2] We can't legally make her stateless and no other country will take her.
[3] I don't buy the idea that she's a victim of Isis. She went to join the perpetrators and she was one of the least brainwashed people in Isis. Most Isis members from the local area will have had far more brainwashing and many of them will have been coerced to join Isis. In contrast she had the internet and the Western Media to research Isis from every point of view and she concluded after a far more balanced set of evidence that they were for her. Children forced to fight with Isis didn't have that luxury, nor did women forced to be concubines for them.
[4] PS: walking into the Consulate? Is that how this is going to go down? The anti-Isis forces have made it clear that they have more Ex-Isis folk than they can handle (they fear a massive breakout). So will they really wait for her to walk to a Consulate (with a baby on the way it could be months or even years) or will Syria be deporting every foreign Isis volunteer as soon as they can? I'd have thought that latter.
[5] I guess we *might* be lucky and this family might choose to go to the Netherlands, or even luckier and the Syrians might prosecute her locally and imprison her long term there - she'll have been living in buildings that her side have vacated by murdering or displacing innocent families so there's perhaps a minuscule chance that Syria have some evidence she was part of that and will be willing to take action on it. But yes, the 99.999999% likelihood is that the UK will end up taking this family, and that *is* our responsibility due to the Mother's nationality.
"In fact she’s probably half-way here."
Read all about her journey in the Sunday Times?
I've decided she should come back , especially if she can shed some light on who it was in her school or community that persuaded and assisted 4 schoolgirls to join up. Which imo is the elephant in the room.
She may well have some information on John Cantile that'd prove useful.
A lot of reports painted her and foreign joinee's of Isis as the ultra hardline religious enforcers/police, so if she made it back I'd really want to make sure she would be charged in full for any of the horrific stuff she might have been involved with. She absolutely must not be able to get away with it or continue to inflict those believes on others.
My other concern is that our government and judicial system at the moment doesnt appear to be competent enough to deal with this sort of thing, and our services aren't funded enough for the outcomes.
From my objective point of view it is very simple.
She comes back because she is a UK citizen
She get's questioned and then tried for any crimes she has actually committed
If found guilty of any crimes she may have committed then serve what is is given
The end
She’s British, she’s our problem morally [1] and legally [2], so we’ll have to take her back. [5] The only argument is whether this is good news or not. I think not, [3] the fewer people in the UK who prefer a society who throw gay people off buildings to a liberal Western Democracy the better AFAIC.[4]
Nobody is saying this is good news. This certainly isn't a good news story, and everyone is keen to have as few ISIS sympathisers as possible.
Importantly you say that morally we should take her back. This means that based on our values this is the correct and right thing to do. End of. That is all that I and others expect.
I am finding it hard to stamp down on any sympathy I have for her. She was 15 ! Brainwashing via the internet can be very powerful, plus the "mass hysteria" affect of having the three of them conspiring with each other. Kind of like a live version of Heathers, with less fashionable clothing.
Then straight away three babies, two of whom died of things that were totally avoidable.
All before 19.
Somebody from channel 5 needs to send a reality TV camera crew to the refugee camp immediately to film her experience trying to get back into the UK. They could gather up a bunch of ISIS brides, put them on a coach and they all get to vote a person off each day, until the last three reach the British Consultate in Turkey. I would watch that.
And lastly - has anybody set up a crowdfunding page yet to get Northwind a Handjob ?
This way Madam, if you care to step onto this plane chartered by Cardiff City FC
Not my joke of belief ... but still funny.
If you can give an example of anyone on this thread ‘almost’ going as far as to run off to a facist state in support of a group of violent extremists then fair enough..i must have missed that post.
@tpbiker, sorry, been a bit busy. @jamj1974 already gave one response, i would just add that you are arguing an action as opposed to a belief.
out of breath, I don't really disagree with anything much there, I guess where we really differ is at the emotive end of the scale. I tend to look at these things without any where as you are clearly more emotive about it.
Anyhow, not much to argue about. and fair point on the deportation.
Traitor to this country. If she ever steps foot on British soil she should be shot imo. Popular opinion, probably not. Let’s ask the parents of anyone unfortunate enough to get in Isis way. Too much of a risk and it shouldn’t have got to the stage of the news. Just get rid.
Aside from the obvious stupidity in that statement,
If it were possible and we did that, the ISIS propaganda machine would be milking it for years. It'd play right into their hands, everyone loves a good martyr.
Traitor to this country. If she ever steps foot on British soil she should be shot imo. Popular opinion, probably not.
On the contrast, it’s massively popular unfortunately.
Every comments section on the internet is full of arseholes competing to come up with the most barbaric method of dealing with what is really quite a straightforward issue.
and her child? Left to die in her belly as her life ebbs away around it? Delivered while she's still warm? Or delivered first and then the mother shot?
I know hyperbole / reductio ad absurdum but in seriousness there are others' lives here as well, and the child is a british citizen, guilty of nothing other than having a terrorist as a mother.
out of breath, I don’t really disagree with anything much there, I guess where we really differ is at the emotive end of the scale. I tend to look at these things without any where as you are clearly more emotive about it.
If there was any emotive tone in my posts it was not intentional and certainly doesn't reflect my state of mind when making the post.
and her child......You mean like the other 2 she doesn’t seem to care about losing when she talks so flippantly about her enjoyable time there.
Get rid in the quickest manner possible, it shouldn’t even be news.
The dudes frothing up about killing traitors should probably go and join Isis. They like that kind of thing.
There was no news of the missing teenager until last month, when reports emerged that Isis militants beat her to death with a hammer after catching her trying to flee the group’s Syrian stronghold of Raqqa.
No leave her their, don't let her become a recruiter over here.
But I very much doubt she’ll be allowed to keep the baby.
and her child? Left to die in her belly as her life ebbs away around it? Delivered while she’s still warm? Or delivered first and then the mother shot?
It's an innocent so will go straight to paradise according to their strongly held religion, so I don't see a problem 😕
They (fundamental islamists) certainly don't seem to have a problem killing kids for precisly that reason.
We know she claimed that she was glad an anti Isis fighter was killed because he would have raped and killed
this just shows how little faith she really has, or that she knoes she has sinned.
Being raped wouldn't have lasted long, then she would have been killed and therefore martyred and gone straight to paradise. A good trade for a little bit of suffering, surely ?
I always think this when you see all those muslims wailing and crying about their dead, surely they should be happy because they have just taken the shortcut to paradise.
I reserve my sympathy for the aetheists that have lost someone, as they know that they have gone nowhere.
Quite a lot of detail about how these people are processed here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47252164
One thing's for sure, she shouldn't be in a refugee camp- she's not a refugee, full stop, she has a place where she can legally and safely return (and she wants to go to). Those desperate few resources in the camp shouldn't be spent on her and her child.
Right here goes... Traitor to their country? She didn't join ISIS in order to attack or harm the UK, she did it to fight and support them in the Syrian civil war against the Syrian government.
She joined in 2015. In 2015, we were still supporting the anti-government forces with non-military aid and intelligence. We'd had a vote in parliament about lending military support too. Now we never directly supported ISIS but we were working directly against their biggest enemies in the area, so that was a very messy line to draw.
In late 2015, we decided that actually, the anti-government forces were baddies, and decided to enter the war on a different side.
So if the UK government was damn nearly bombing ISIS's enemies (and would have done if not defeated in the 2013 vote), how horrified can we be that someone went to fight on their side, against the Syrian government which is unquestionably awful and which the governemnt and the UK press had spent the last several years (rightly) criticising?
It's not a war with goodies and baddies or even neatly 2 sides, it's a load of awful bastards indiscriminately killing each other in a small room full of innocent bystanders. That's the bewildering background against which she chose to go to war, same as the UK. I think of all the bastards, she backed the worst but to depict that as "treason" or being anti-UK just seems absurd to me. She's never (as far as we know) done anything against the UK.
@Northwind, agree Treason would never stand up for the reasons you state. (In fact it would really amuse me if they did try to get her for Treason and she used the fact the UK had been on ISIS's side as her defence.)
However we shouldn't think that because the UK government had seriously and openly considered action to support ISIS et al against Assad that there was doubt if ISIS were the *really* bad guys in Iraq and 5 way civil war in Syria in 2015. James Foley was the first of several people beheaded starting in August 2014 and that was very widely broadcast. Numerous other atrocities had already taken place in 2015 and had been massive news stories including the famous killing/enslaving of Homosexuals, Jews & Christians. By 2015 ISIS were quite blatantly a genocidal death cult and every serious media outlet had taken that line. (I'm not suggesting you think otherwise, I just think it's worth spelling out.)
I’ve decided she should come back , especially if she can shed some light on who it was in her school or community that persuaded and assisted 4 schoolgirls to join up. Which imo is the elephant in the room.
You are aware of how the internet works, and how to use a search engine?
Thelittlesthobo
Traitor to this country. If she ever steps foot on British soil she should be shot imo. Popular opinion, probably not. Let’s ask the parents of anyone unfortunate enough to get in Isis way. Too much of a risk and it shouldn’t have got to the stage of the news. Just get rid.
It may be popular. It certainly is morally repugnant.
Regardless of who a person is, and any crime they have allegedly committed they should always receive a fair trial. It is a corner stone of our civilised society.
(Don't say "did they give that to their victims", because that is not a valid argument)
Good Observer opinion piece about this in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/17/the-observer-view-on-shamima-begum
Only about one in 10 of 400 or so British returnees from Syria have been successfully prosecuted
Shocking.
It's a boy!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47270857
The 19-year-old told Sky News from a Syrian refugee camp "a lot of people should have sympathy towards me".
"I didn't know what I was getting into when I left," she said.
She said she made a mistake "in a way" by going to Syria, but added: "I don't regret it because it's made me stronger."
Sure.
Rene59 is working really hard on getting the title of STWs most populist, reactionary, sexist... .
Well the biggest troll title was already taken...
Well, that's a turnip for the books.
How's that "stateless" thing work, again?
What a nasty little country we have become. Or maybe we always were 🙁
Govt actually doing something right for once, she should've thought about any consequences before she left to breed future terrorists, but she didn't. I am struggling to give any ****s about her
Shit. We haven't really made someone stateless have we? What the ****.
What a nasty little country we have become.
Have you seen the interviews she done the past few days?
Govt actually doing something right for once
The government breaking the law is the right thing?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/09/terror-suspect-british-nationality-illegal
Isn't it illegal to make someone stateless? Besides being morally disgraceful.
I reserve my sympathy for the aetheists that have lost someone, as they know that they have gone nowhere.
I'm an atheist but I don't know what happens to a person after death . My belief is that their soul goes on to inhabit another being . So nobody KNOWS what happens after death and religion or lack of it does not dictate your beliefs .
The government breaking the law is the right thing?
Is it a fact that she wasn't a dual national?
Isn’t it illegal to make someone stateless?
I believe so. Rights are pretty pointless if we withdraw them from people we dislike.
Tories attempting(it'll not hold up) to appease the rabid masses, who'd a thunk it.
The government breaking the law is the right thing?
In this case yes, I fully support whoever made that decision
This'll be fun in the courts.
In this case yes, I fully support whoever made that decision
Rights according to the whims of the Daily Mail brigade. What a good idea.
She not be taking her case to the ECJ ... I guess thats another benefit of Brexit
Isn’t it illegal to make someone stateless?
I thought so too. I was thinking "can open, worms everywhere." But I did a bit of digging and found this:
In January 2014, the Immigration Bill 2013–14 was introduced to extend the powers of the Home Secretary to declare certain terrorism suspects stateless.
Not quite sure how domestic law can trump International law, but there you are. I don't think we've heard the last of this by a long chalk. UNHCR anyone?
Rights according to the whims of the Daily Mail brigade. What a good idea.
She had dual citizenship
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1097943132082196485
Is it a fact that she wasn’t a dual national?
^^^this...my betting she's a dual national which i would imagine made the home secretarys decision easier as it wouldn't leave her stateless
:edit: ...and as bruneeps post, now confirmed
Relax all you woke bros, she has Bangladeshi citizenship.
Have you seen the interviews she done the past few days?
I've seen a mess of a girl who jumped off a cliff when she was too young and naive to understand what she was doing.
On the other hand when I look at Sajid Javid I see an nasty evil little man who will sacrifice whoever it takes if it advances his career by a millimetre. If someone had to be banished from the country, why can't it be him?
Relax all you woke bros, she has Bangladeshi citizenship.
Sauce?
"The family's lawyer, Tasnime Akunjee, told The Independent Begum had been a sole British national and had "never had a Bangladeshi passport"."
Not that that is the point.
Aha.
1.2. The power under review may be exercised only if:
(a) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the
public good because the person, when a British citizen, “has conducted him
or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of
the United Kingdom” or associated territories; and
(b) the Secretary of State has “reasonable grounds for believing that the person
is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to
become a national of such country or territory”.
(Seems this was a late addition to the bill by someone we've probably never heard of by the name of Theresa May...)
Besides being morally disgraceful.
& the Special Snowflake award goes to.....Ewaaaan!
She should be ****ing shot. It's the only thing terrorists like her seem to understand, plus she'll be happy cos she'll go to paradise.
Been here before:
I’ve seen a mess of a girl who jumped off a cliff when she was too young and naive to understand what she was doing.
I seen a young woman with a new interest in religion, having seen some beheading videos online and images of a place to raise a family under strict Sharia Law went to get married to a man who shares her views and raise kids who could later contribute to the cause.