[Closed] British and Irish Lions 2021

Smith plays the chip over the top really well when he wants to slow pressure. Not enough pressure yesterday. Hogg needs to not be captain I don't think he can play well AND lead. He's also too keen to move upfield . I don't really get the mako love. He looked out of breath running into the pitch and seems to spend a lot of scrums have a lie down.

With a team like the lions so chock full of very experienced internationals then is the on field captain that important that you would want to play a lessor player to get your preferred captain on the pitch?

I'm pretty sure that Garland has said no to this in the past. I don't think either Murray or AWJ are guaranteed to play, I can see neither of them being in the first Test team. Ali Price looks favourite to start to me.

I could see smith starting given how well he settled in in the second half.

I could see Biggar starting and Smith coming on later, or vice versa depending on the days game plan. Much like Gatland did with Biggar/Anscombe, Biggar/Sheedy.
Perhaps (based on nothing) with someone like Hogg to cover Biggar if something should happen to him, but it's not a good time for Smith to come on.

(based on nothing)

Hogg is a reasonable makeshift 10. I wouldn't like to be relying on him to do so

for Scotland they usually do not have a second 10 on the bench so when Finn has been having his 10 mins rest Hogg steps up, he also started a midweek lions game at 10 and one of the recent scotland games.

Its more of an issue for scotland of course where we only have Finn at 10 worth playing there

If only the teams in the prem/ hiney cup had thought of trying that…he gets emptied every week, just bounces up and still plays right on the gain line.

Oh I agree about that - he’s always looked good in the Premiership. What we don’t know is how good he is when he’s playing with unfamiliar players and systems, and yesterday showed nothing in that respect. The Lions looked very ordinary against a poor team. (But they often look different in the warm-up games when they are testing their game plans.)

I’m withholding my man crush until Smith proves himself next weekend.

Gatland says he thinks the toughest decisions will be made in "the back three and the loose forwards".

"We will go through the process over the next 72 hours and there will be some robust debate," he added.

Dawson also has his selection on the BBC website - seeing how he has got pretty much everythig wrong so far I think we can disregard that. Its a really weird selection

A lot of teams I'm seeing have had Williams at 15 over Hogg, I haven't been 100% invested in watching games but has he looked that good? Hasn't been on fire this season.

Its a really weird selection

Does that mean not enough Scots?

Saw his selection and wouldn't be surprised if he's got 13 out of 15.

Loose head and eight he's gone for English flair, mako and Simmonds, where I reckon garland will go for more grunt, but if awj is fit enough then it might just be pretty close.
No one's really nailed 1 and 8 as their own yet, garland more likely to go with Faletau and which ever prop they decide has best scrum chance- WJones or Sutherland.

Think Williams is popular as the player "in possession", with Hogg having a bit of time out.

Mako who spends most scrums flat on his face. Murray who has been poor, Farrell on the bench as utility back, Curry and Simmonds in the back row. those are the daft picks IMO

williams at 15 is not an odd pick - I rate him highly the bandy legged git. But he is not as good as HOgg IMO and I would have Williams on the wing but that one is a bit of a toss up

I am unconvinced about Daly at 13 as he has had a really mixed bag so far costing at least two tries with wayward kicks but again not a really daft pick

I bet half of them are wrong!

Dawson even says Makos scrummaging is not up to scratch but says he can be subbed off if he gets pummeled. FFS against the Bokke you need a really solid scrum

A lot of teams I’m seeing have had Williams at 15 over Hogg, I haven’t been 100% invested in watching games but has he looked that good? Hasn’t been on fire this season.

He has looked OK but not as good as Hogg.

So you agree about mako and Simmonds, and your other two are Curry and Murray - both world class big game players. Ok

Sweet pass to Hill notwithstanding,Hogg's form has dropped from his own high standards and he was in isolation so I couldn't complain if Williams played, but I suspect Williams on a wing with either a countryman or a saffer on the other. I would be gutted for Price if Murray started ahead of him, Murray is a shadow of the player he was 2 years ago and Price is playing so much better than most Scots ever imagined he could.

Loum - its when you look at the selection as a whole that Dawson made - its just daft. its not a team to beat the Bokke and the idea that you only have two backs on the bench and one of them is Farrell thats ridiculous. 15 pts down, 30 mins to go. You need someone to come on and change the game. so you bring on Farrell riiiiiight

Murray has been pure mince adn Curry is just a poor mans mish with added headless chicken and penalties and in combination with Simmonds I just do not see it working.

Mish - player of the 6N and continuing in fabulous form

Curry is just a poor mans mish with added headless chicken

Curry is a very very good player...and you accuse me of one eyedness!

He is - but he is not as good as Mish - player of the 6Ns so he is a poor mans Mish!

Same sort of player - just not as good.

Player of the 6N remember.

but he is not Scottish

FTFY

Bore off Kryton Projecting much?

Watson was player of the 6N and has continued his cracking form. Curry is a very good player yes and unfortunate to be up against such a class act. very similar sort of player but without Watson experience and Curry does too much headless chicken. 4 years time for him IMO

so who really has nailed down a place in the starters? its still really open IMO and as the quote I put from gatland above some really tricky selections

the only folk that have really been significantly better than their rivals IMO are:

Furlong, LCD and Price. Obviously the best in the tour party in their position maybe ad Adams to that

Mish has Curry and while i still say Mish is better i accept there is very little in it and it could go either way and neither will let the team down.

Hogg / Williams is a similar story

second rows no front runners but we all assume AWJ will get the nod

Back rows any 3 from the group will not let you down

Standoff Biggar is the front runner But Smith is coming screaming up on the outside

Centres Henshaw maybe the closest to securing a place Harris the safe option Daly the high risk high reward option

wings? pays yer money and takes yer choice

Its really opon and really fascinating

Only 3 guys have played themselves out of contention IMO - Vunipola ( and he looked better int eh last game) Murray and Farrell

Itoje plays. That is nailed on. The bloke is a freak. Yes he gets things wrong sometimes but he is an extremely good player.
All the arguments over selection seem to be about what a player can’t do as to what they actually do well.

All the arguments over selection seem to be about what a player can’t do as to what they actually do well

Not all of them, have you seen Dawson's test team? That one is based entirely on your nationality. 😀

He’d fit in well here then!

I think Itoje is a fabulous player but somehow what I have seen on this tour so far he just seems to be below his best. too many penalties and not as effective as he can be. trying too hard? In the 6N I thought that was his downfall - england were poor and I think he tried to do too much

I would be perfectly happy if he was in the test side tho and he probably will be

I just think on what we have seen so far he is not clearly better than the other 2nd rows.

As an aside I gained respect for him from "the battle of scotston" Sarries V Glasgow a couple of years ago Were he was critised for being unsporting. However he spent the entire game with Ryan Wilson trying to wind him up, was on the receiving end of some pretty unsporting play and not a word of complaint from him nor did he loose his temper despite Wilsons best efforts

The team I'd pick

Hogg
Williams
Daly
Henshaw
Adams
Smith
Price
Faletau
Watson
Bierne
Itoje
Henderson
1/8th Mile
LCD
Sutherland

Vunipola
George
Sinkler
Lawes
Simmonds
Davies
Farrell
DVdM

What I hope Gatland will pick for shits a giggles
Williams
Adams
Henderson
Farrell
Watson
Murray
Faletau
Curry
Bierne
Itoje
Jones
1/8th Mile
Owens
Wyn Jones

I think itoje has suffered from being in the championship, he's stood still while the game has moved on in the prem, might be by a tiny amount but now he's chasing. I'd still start him with AWJ as supersub, there were worries months ago about the hard ground, big hits and his shoulders.
I'd start suzz (not just because he comes along to the pumptrack and can actually ride a bike well) LCD yep, Simmonds nailed on, Price fast enough both in delivery and of foot to not get caught by faff, Smith will operate best with price's fast ball. "Mish" he's disruptive enough to cause the big SAs issues, Henshaw solid and carrying first phase ball in the defensive back line, DvdW 14

Shit what if, in a dramatic twist, DvdW seconds before KO takes off his lions shirt to reveal a SA shirt beneath and then take his place on their wing?

We have previous for that, you aren't allowed 16 players on the park at one time...ARE YOU AA?

We have previous for that, you aren’t allowed 16 players on the park at one time…ARE YOU AA?

Eh? My first selection has 15, second one has no 10 I'd pick Faz to boil the most piss!!

In more serious talk I think Faletau still gets picked at 8 over Simmonds even though he's been a bit below par, its a gamble but Faletau is simply too good a player not to gamble on, he is also a tremendous asset in defence with a phenomenal work rate and that side of his play hasn't been needed...some big calls though, no doubt. TBH I think The Irish Barbarian has been the best 8 on your but the Faletau has a much higher ceiling and Simmonds has more potential.

yer teams no bad AA - Not sure Sutherland has convinced that much and maybe conan at 8?

AA; Wales had 16 players on the pitch in a 6N game a few years ago.

Not sure Sutherland has convinced that much

Vunipola has scrummaging issues, and Wyn Jones is bang average throughout, picked Sutherland by default!

Fair enough. I don't really understand those nasty smelly front row types but many folk have been calling for Wyn Jones

I played at hooker once as a schoolboy. never again. Nasty smelly uncouth ogres in the front row *shudders*

FFS dude - is that really needed? You really peed me off and I thought I had annoyed you so tried to make peace. that post is bang out of order.

Come on kids, just laugh at each others bias and move on!!

Deleted - pointless.

So, the 'boks have named their team:

15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cheslin Kolbe, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Handre Pollard, 9 Faf de Klerk; 1 Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, 3 Trevor Nyakane, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 5 Franco Mostert, Siya Kolisi (c), 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 8 Kwagga Smith.

Replacements: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Frans Malherbe, 19 Lood de Jager, 20 Rynhardt Elstadt, 21 Herschel Jantjies, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Damian Willemse.

Looks, chunky, although no 6:2 bench

Smallest Bok eight ever?

Smallest Bok eight ever?

Maybe, but the bench forwards are huge!

Sorry, I mean Number Eight, not the pack in general.

Two out and out sevens.
Maybe they've had a tip off that were going Watson Curry for 7 and 8

the times apparantly has a "leaked" team I wouldn't be surprised if its not more Gatland mischief making or just nonsense but:

Hogg, Watson, Daly, Henshaw, VDM, Biggar, Price

Jones, Cowan-Dickie, Furlong, AWJ, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Conan

Reps

Owens, Sutherland, Sinckler, Beirne, Watson, Henderson, Murray, Farrell.

If that really is the team Adams will be very unlucky I think. I can see the thinking behind that back row but its not what I would have gone for but that a big back row. Nothing really hugely controversial tho IMO
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-irish-lions-ali-price-picked-at-scrum-half-with-elliot-daly-at-13-but-no-starting-place-for-owen-farrell-ngcwgd7kn

Is the team that uncontroversial?

the only bit that really worries me is the bench. 20 minutes to go - you need someone to shake things up so you bring on.......Farrell?

I sort of get the logic with Farrell covering 10 and 12 and thus being able to shuffle Daly or Watson around to cover any backs position

Obviously gone for power in the back row ( and the rest of the team) rather than speed or jackaling. Leave curry a lot to do at the breakdown. clearly he has decided to try to match the bokke power game rather than trying to run them around and run past them hence VDM rather than Adams

Still - over all a decent selection I think

The Times seem confident this is the side

Expected British & Irish Lions team to face South Africa

S Hogg; A Watson, E Daly, R Henshaw, D van der Merwe; D Biggar, A Price; W Jones, L Cowan-Dickie, T Furlong, A W Jones (c), M Itoje, C Lawes, T Curry, J Conan.

Replacements K Owens, R Sutherland, K Sinckler, T Beirne, H Watson, I Henderson, C Murray, O Farrell.

Seeing it written down on paper I can't see them winning TBH

Hmmm, Adams omission is a worry, his defence is better than Duhan. I guess Gatland wants smash rather than skills.

Although the official announcement is now at 10am today. It could change. I’m surprised to see Henshaw over Aki as well.

Aki isn't very good. What worries me is I look at that backrow and think, well Faletau, Tipuric and Navidi all fit could match that, Liam, LRZ and Adams could match that back 3. Tomos Williams and Biggar, beat that half back pairing. England and Ireland could match that front 5. Looks a bit light on true world class to me

AA - glass half empty again? the other way to look at is we have so many class players someone misses out.

told you price could force his way into the test side - an underrated player - even in Scotland. I also said duhan could get a game - again underrated and Gatland like big wingers and his defensive frailties are overstated.

I would prefer a 5:3 bench with someone capable of shaking the game up there. Murray, smith, Adams bench with that team

TBH I am not that convinced by Price. Murray is by far the best option. Is he on the bench? Smith whilst awesome in Prem still has to prove international credentials.

Murray is on the bench if that leaked team is right. I think you might be surprised by price. clearly the form SH on tour and underrated IMO

the proof of the pudding is in the eating tho

The actual team - not the leaked one

SOUTH AFRICA v THE BRITISH & IRISH LIONS

15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783

14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816

13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824

11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841

10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821

9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

1. Wyn Jones (Scarlets, Wales) #842

2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851

3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818

4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825

5. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761

6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826

7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853

8.Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

Replacements:

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829

17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840

18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814

19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838

20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847

21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790

22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780

23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

ooh Murray, Farrell and Williams(at 15) have my heart racing. That would be a hell of a combo.

I think you might be surprised by price. clearly the form SH on tour and underrated IMO

the proof of the pudding is in the eating tho

Being in form against the Sharks/Lions/Japan whatever is like saying you played amazing against Italy.
I am skeptikal. We got beaten by SA - A and whilst it was obviously a decent SA 1st team not and A side, I think the saffers are only going o get better...

We got beaten by SA – A

Who played 9 and 10 in that game?

Prefer that bench, never rated Lawes at 6 I'd have gone with Bierne but can see the sense in him as a bench option.
I wouldn't have started AWJ or wyn Jones and DVdM.
Ali Price is the best 9 in squad but he's not a Dawson, Howley or Phillips type.

Makes you wonder if Henderson was the leaker!

Bench does look better with williams there.

Why engage with the troll TJ?
Just for a laugh 5plus8, explain why Murray would be a better selection that Price. I will start for you...

He isn't Scottish.

Over to you

Now now duckman - I was trying to get this thread back to more even tempered 🙂

I have to say the the Farrell / Murry combo makes me want to cry.

Why engage with the troll TJ?

Calls me a troll. Tells others not to engage..

Just for a laugh 5plus8, explain why Murray would be a better selection that Price. I will start for you…

Engages.

You are a bitter man. There are plenty of great scots players. I just don't think Price is all that. and I mentioned DVH as being a defensive risk (which is all over the papers.) Thats it.
I like Sutherland, I would have liked to see Cherry on the plane, but unfortunately there are also a few other really good hookers.
Mish was good in 6N, but I am also skeptikal that it will translate.
I also rate Hogg, I don't think he has his best game at Exeter, he seems to paly way better in internationals than he does in prem.

If I upset you, use that forum blocker tool.

5plus8 - even AA knows Price is the best 9 on tour. DVMs defensive frailties are a myth. It all stems from one huge blunder in the 6N which was totally his fault and the inside defense left him exposed. I have watched every game he has played for 3 years and his is simply not a defensive liability - certainly not compared to A Watson who was at fault for two tries in the warmup game

DVH as being a defensive risk (which is all over the english papers.)

fixed that for you

In the 6 nations - A Watson - 15 tackles made, 7 missed DVDM - 13 made 3 missed thats a significant differnce. Of course its easier playing in a better team

So you can't explain why Murray is better then? No worries.

What worries me is I look at that backrow and think, well Faletau,

AA; Faletau has looked like carrying Bath last year has emptied him, he has looked knackered. I had picked him as a bolter when the squad was announced but Conan has simply been better.

After last couple of games I'd have young Marcus in place of 22, but I like that squad. Getting tingles of excitement about the test.
(No response required, thanks whingers)

It’s just my opinion

He's got to get a run out sometime to prove himself against the big boys. will be very interesting, lets hope its the making of him.

Also AA - I am not sure why Lawes is in the squad, he has misfired for England for a long time now.
And simmonds notable absence, I am not convinced by him either, so glad he isn't there.

I would agree DezB

Agreeing with my edit, obviously TJ 😛

Certainly not the team I’d picked, but Gatland obviously has a game plan & wants players that fit it.
Lawes in the back row probably points to the line out strength of SA.
Daly at 13 - expecting lots of kicking.

Front row - I’m pleased for Luke C-D , the rest are all good players, could have been any combo.

Lions Rugby tends to keep it simple, with the odd flash move. They don’t play together enough for any other way. Biggar is the right choice for that.

Josh Adam’s must feel unlucky. He’s always scared me as an opponent. Am I right in thinking he isn’t very tall? How is he under the expected barrage, as that’s the only reason I can think of?

Finally, I’m really glad all nations are properly represented. On merit too. For the first time in ages I feel all home nations are strong.

How is he under the expected barrage, as that’s the only reason I can think of?

Catching??? High ball? He is imperious. I dunno why he has been left out.

I am not sure why Lawes is in the squad, he has misfired for England for a long time now.
And simmonds notable absence, I am not convinced by him either, so glad he isn’t there.

Lawes was in the ascendancy again and then got injured. When on form he’s hugely disruptive in defense. But let’s see.

Also not convinced by Simmons on this tour, I was hoping we’d see more of his magic, but we haven’t. Maybe EJ saw it before we did.

Luckily VDM has Watson to help with his catching. 😉

Adams can feel very unlucky I think. He could not have done any more. I think DVDM has got in purely on his size. Gatland likes big wingers

An Englishman an Irishman and a Welshman went into a scrum front row.... Love it. 🙂

When on form he’s hugely disruptive in defense.

He is also good line out option, but I often felt his ball in hand, attack etc was too easy to stop. That's my issue with him.

Simmons on this tour, I was hoping we’d see more of his magic, but we haven’t.

He was the first to admit his try record this season is due to the Exeter machine putting him there.

but Conan has simply been better

I agree he has.

but Duckman thinks I am not allowed to, well **** him.

No, I was just pointing out your constant anyone but Scotland posting. I have at no time said you aren't allowed to post and was just reminding TJ of your bias( he pointed it out to you himself during the 6n if you recall.) By the way; your "reasons" for preferring Murray are exactly why Price was picked in front of him.

Seems a reasonable team. Murray is luck to be on the bench, his form has not been good and surprised that Farell made the bench - expect because he can cover 10 & 12 and his goal kicking.

Very unsurprised that Simmonds not included - I always thought his selection was a little strange. For Exeter he is a star, but concern about having to perform at higher level without the Exeter machine was always going to be a stretch. In any case Conan is the form 8 and Curry can cover him

Based on the SA A game, think the Lions may do well to old it to a 14 point loss. Lions always do better in late tests when they have had a chance to meld in tough games.

It does amuse me that the two of the most biased posters on this thread get so upset and lash out all the time.

I mean we all are biased but if AA ( who is as one eyed as any of us) makes a strong statement about a welsh player I tend to believe him despite his bias - because he knows the player better

the idea that someone can call DVDM out for being "weak defensively" when he has hardly seen him play but I cannot defend DVDM even tho I have seen every game he has played and know he is not I have Watched DVDM in 40+ games.

Based on the SA A game, think the Lions may do well to old it to a 14 point loss.

See, I think the Saffers will gas,so the replacements made at 50 can win the test.I think the way to beat them is to contain them but also if we can make them play at a faster pace that they are conditioned for we will win. Hence Lawes in the back row and a huge winger who will be cutting in to make the SA back 5 work, first half; cope/survive the physicality while moving the point of contact when we have possession to make them work, thats why DvM got the nod. At 50, Watson, Adams, Sutherland/Sinkler.

It does amuse me that the two of the most biased posters on this thread get so upset and lash out all the time.

Sorry who are you talking about?

the idea that someone can call DVDM out for being “weak defensively”

He is, he turns light a cart horse and his positioning is poor, he has a lot of strengths obviously but Adams or Loopy would be better defenders and Williams especially is much better under the high ball. SA will try to test him early under the high ball, it's not to say he's a bad player, he has just been picked to start a Lion's test for god's sake, but it's a gamble from Gatland for sure, safer less attacking options are available

It does amuse me that the two of the most biased posters on this thread get so upset and lash out all the time.

I thought you were doing much better now tj, and I've not seen you lash out. 😉
A_a is more critical of the Welsh players than anyone!

Ps there were a lot of people in the press choosing Murray over Price for the first Test, whilst acknowledging that he had not been playing well and that Price is currently playing the best of the three on tour. The reasons given include: he has better tactical awareness, at his best he was a much better player than Price, he has a lot of experience.