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In the next 20 years, I foresee the dissolution of the United Kingdom. In its place, I would love to see a coming together of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland in an economically-viable and equitable political union.
Unlikely, I know, but worth dreaming about. Yes? No?
Discuss.
Why would flourishing Ireland want to do that?
No thanks.
Don't make this an anti English thing, I really want us to be independent, to make our own choices that will benefit our country.
Not compromises with other countries that we don't even have a land border with.
What happens to Northern Ireland? We're not touching that one with a bargepole.
What happens to Northern Ireland?
I figure a Celtic Union would solve that. The Loyalists in NI are all historically Scottish anyway, aren't they? That is, before Queen Elizabeth I coerced them with the plantations...
The Loyalists in NI are all historically Scottish anyway, aren’t they
We don't want them!
Too right we don't, there's enough loonballs here as it is!
I’m struggling to see why someone with the username ’SaxonRider‘ would want to stir up a shitstorm around Celtic separateism.
To quote a tee shirt I bought at a gig, ‘why can’t we just get along, bitch’.
Wales wanted Brexit didn't they?
Aren’t you Canadian?
Aren’t you Canadian?
Half British half German, born in Canada, living in Wales. 🙂
As for Wales wanting Brexit:
Work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.
“If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”
From this article in the Guardian.
Why do you think it's even an idea worth considering? Why have you excluded Brittany and Cornwall?
I can't really see any reason for it. As a Scot, I'd see a union with Wales and Ireland as a sort of "middle way fallacy". It has the same issues as the UK union but with fewer of the benefits. If you are pro Scottish independence (I'm not) I don't see how you could be pro a Celtic union without some serious mental gymnastics.
Based on my likely very biased experiences of visiting Wales and Ireland I have never detected much warmth for the Scots. In Ireland it's kind of obvious - the Scots were the middle management of the empire. Wales is just wales, they seem to dislike a lot.
@saxonrider so what you're actually trying to say is, you want to flush out tbe genuine Welsh feom the pretend ones? How many generations in the graveyard to qualify as genuine?
The natural advantage is the obvious pincer movement when they invade what is left of England after ten years of Brexit negotiations.
Based on my likely very biased experiences of visiting Wales and Ireland I have never detected much warmth for the Scots
Really? It's funny how our perceptions are formed and skewed so that we can have such different experiences.
Any "Celtic Union" is more likely to take the form of the Nordic Council, promoting cooperation and helping to resolve disputes. It would be bizarre to exclude an England/RUK in any such organisation.
If you are pro Scottish independence (I’m not) I don’t see how you could be pro a Celtic union without some serious mental gymnastics.
A lot of pro independence voters are actually just anti English, on that basis it is not such a leap
A lot of pro independence voters are actually just anti English, on that basis it is not such a leap
You got a source for that statement?
As for that Dorling piece, a similar post-Indyref study (by Manchester Uni IIRC) showed that the "No" vote was carried by non-native Scots. English/Welsh/Irish obviously concerned about family and internal border and (ironically) EU nationals concerned about the Scotland-EU relationship. However, that's a dangerous road to go down. We can't on the one hand say " welcome to Scotland - you're Scottish as long as you want to be" and then say "but you don't get a vote".
A lot =/= 2
A lot of pro independence voters are actually just anti English, on that basis it is not such a leap
Baws.
A lot of pro independence voters are actually just anti English, on that basis it is not such a leap
I'm not sure it's "a lot" but they do exist. It's a really shaky argument for independence. Especially if you try and ask what it is they hate about the English, and then go down the path of all the other groups those things apply to. But then Nationalism is a bit weird and this the dark underbelly of it.
There are a few ****s in Scotland? You say that like it's news.
I haven't seen anyone argue that anti-Englishism is a good argument for independence, though I guess the OP comes close - by inference.
I honestly know more anti-Scots than anti-English.
Ridiculously.
One nice thought since it's easy to get sucked into all the UK and EU strife.
One of the greatest philosophers of the middle ages was a Scot called John Duns. He died in 1308 and his tomb in Cologne has the inscription:
Scotland brought me forth. England sustained me. France taught me. Cologne holds me
Hopefully we'll all manage to keep the links between different countries regardless of whatever arbitrary political unions are in place.
It makes sense for smaller countries to work together on some issues. And gives them more influence internationally, without being dominated by larger countries. So it could be worthwhile to have a group excluding England.
There is a "Forum of Small States" within the UN.
Why would it be necessary to exclude England? Bigger maybe but with a shared border and equal standing at the table I see no reason to ever exclude them by default.
It's easy to hate on the English, just as easily as it is to hate on anyone else for whatever slight they may (or may not) have caused you.
We need less bigotry, not more. Thanks.
It makes sense for smaller countries to work together on some issues. And gives them more influence internationally
Population wise the combination of Scotland, Wales and Ireland puts us somewhere around the size of the Netherlands.
We would combine three international non entities into a non entity. I'd imagine in terms of economic clout we'd be punching in the top 20 to 30 though.
Population wise, Scotland is about the size of Slovakia, Denmark, Norway or Ireland. I'm not sure any of those consider them selves to be a "non-entity".
You got a source for that statement?
Yep, I love in Scotland and I speak to people.
I wouldn't call it a lot but there are certainly people with those sentiments.
That aside, anecdote =/= data.
We would combine three international non entities into a non entity
To be fair only Scotland and Wales are international non-entities.
We would combine three international non entities into a non entity.
Right, yeah.
Working together when it makes sense, makes sense. I don't see any sort of country type relationship after the collapse of the UK but I can definitely see a little union within the big union.
so what you’re actually trying to say is, you want to flush out tbe genuine Welsh feom the pretend ones? How many generations in the graveyard to qualify as genuine?
No, actually, I'm not saying that at all.
It's not for nothing, however, that Pembrokeshire gets called 'Little England Beyond Wales'. Rich Home Counties folk who buy second homes in Cornwall, then retire there, don't become Cornish just because of their new postcode either.
Having lived in the Caribbean for a while as well, I also think that the Islands should band together and become a "United Islands of the Caribbean", including especially those islands marginalised by US trade policies.
...just as Canadians living in Wales dont become Welsh just because they live there either ( I suppose ? ) ...
Population wise, Scotland is about the size of Slovakia, Denmark, Norway or Ireland. I’m not sure any of those consider them selves to be a “non-entity”.
No but then a little yappy dog thinks it's the business, doesn't mean anyone else takes any notice. That's why nearly all the small central and Eastern European countries are acutely aware of how important it is for them to be integral members of the EU and NATO, rather than create a different minor union between themselves.
If you genuinely wanted a Celtic union type thing, you'd be better off going all out for Scottish independence then join the EU and use the tools that come with that to build closer links with Ireland. Sort of like how the EU has facilitated close cooperation between the Baltic countries.
nobody wants a celtic union / UK minus england. Its a stupid idea. Scotland wants to be independent within the EU
We would combine three international non entities into a non entity
I'd love to live in a non entity country. It would be so much better than what we currently have: a country that thinks it's an entity and bases it's decision making and foreign policy on the dream that it still is.
It would have been better to have close cooperation as independent countries within some kind of Pan-european network, but that idea has gone... for now.
Also the op seems to have forgotten the Manx folk and Asturians, Galicians, Bazques😊
Basques
Another stealth Brexit thread!
Please keep all the nonsense on the official Brexit/Looney Thread.
Six nations would be a bit shite
Also I think a federalised England plus Wales, Scotland & NI would be a better way to go.
@saxonrider if they register that house as their place to vote then I'm afraid they do legally become Welsh/Cornish!
Scotland’s doesn’t need a federal UK. It needs to be independent and a member of the EU.
Anti-English sentiment has always been a part of Scottish life, it’s a low key marker of frustration. But it’s not the driver for independence. The driver for independence is the unbalanced power relationships that have existed historically between Westminster and the Scottish people.
Brexit has demonstrated a significant cultural divide across the UK. It’s not unreasonable to ask the question whether it wouldn’t be appropriate for the Scots, Irish and Welsh to seek common purpose. What that might look like is an open question.
ctk
Also I think a federalised England plus Wales, Scotland & NI would be a better way to go.
With the best will in the world, it wouldn't work.
To address the issues we currently have, the states would have to have equal weight in a joint senate, and that would be unfair to England because democratically it outweighs all the others.
That is why we need independence, because at the moment England interests rightly get priority (democracy) within the UK, hence the situation where Scotland's democratic interests get over-ridden and we get taken out of the EU against the express will of Scotland's population.
I don't see any need for a Celtic Union when there is the EU or EFTA.
It’s not for nothing, however, that Pembrokeshire gets called ‘Little England Beyond Wales’. Rich Home Counties folk who buy second homes in Cornwall, then retire there, don’t become Cornish just because of their new postcode either.
Pembrokeshire is called that because of its history - nothing to do with second home owners.
@epic when I said a federalised England I meant England being split up to parts aswell.
London, SE, SW, Midlands, NE, NW or whatever makes sense population wise maybe the Midlands need to be split in half aswell?
we get taken out of the EU against the express will of Scotland’s population
There are other parts of the UK that feel just as strongly. I guess for all of them the question is whether there is a legal, viable and justified administrative reorganisation that can address the grievance.
Anti-English sentiment has always been a part of Scottish life, it’s a low key marker of frustration.
Speak for yourself, because you're certainly not speaking for me or anyone I know.
Yet you are allowed to speak for everybody in Scotland.
Anti-English sentiment has always been a part of Scottish life, it’s a low key marker of frustration.
Its wrong to deny it exists among the population. Its not particularly widespread or overt.
My personal preference is for a properly federal uk. As Ctk said - an England split into it parts - units of 5-10 million perhaps? Northumbria Wessex etc- revive the old names Greater london becomes a city state in effect.
However thats pie in the skye and I have never seen a federal UK solution that look remotely feasible
Otherwise Scotland will vote for independence sooner or later and personally - I'd rather do it sooner. the less time we spend out of the EU the better.
I am sure a united Ireland is not far away as well
Bit of a silly idea, particularly since an IS would rejoin the EU anyhow. So a Celtic union is a bit redundant.
And Wales, looks like is forever locked to England anyhow..
Basques
The Basques aren't Celtic.
In that case let's forget about Celtic and make it all about Totally Awkward Bastards. Kills three birds with one stone- broadens the possible partnerships, maintains the essential trade access to Mondraker bikes, and means that TJ will always have a home here regardless of extradition treaties, pogroms etc.
The Huns will never go for it.
🙂
My mistake Seosamh.
And Wales, looks like is forever locked to England anyhow..
Maybe, maybe not.
The U.K. / England has a weird relationship with the Celtic Nations. Whenever Independence or devolution comes up it’s always “you’re a drain on the rest of us, you get more than you put in, you’ll be doomed without us” you’d think they’d being dying to get rid.
If Scotland goes, and I reckon given a ref they will and the Eu welcomes them with open arms, Wales my follow.
If there’s a fundamental difference between England and the rest of the U.K. it’s that England is the only part that wants to a big deal on the world stage. A lot of the rest would be happy being a smaller nation that doesn’t ‘have’ try to throw its weight around on the world stage.
P-jay
...A lot of the rest would be happy being a smaller nation that doesn’t ‘have’ try to throw its weight around on the world stage.
Especially when that involves killing people in distant countries in their own homes.
epicyclo
Subscriber
P-jay
…A lot of the rest would be happy being a smaller nation that doesn’t ‘have’ try to throw its weight around on the world stage.Especially when that involves killing people in distant countries in their own homes.
Aye the Scots have never been involved in that. 😆
seosamh77
Aye the Scots have never been involved in that.
Indeed, we were sold that as Britannia bringing enlightenment and civilisation to the savages while we ripped off their resources, and I'm sure we still have some knuckle-dragging types who think that's a good thing.
But nonetheless, being able to avoid being party to extra-territorial aggression and wars with our large neighbour for the [s]benefit of large corporations[/s] glory of the Empire can only be a good thing.
If there’s a fundamental difference between Tory England and the rest of the U.K. it’s that Tory England is the only part that wants to a big deal on the world stage. A lot of the rest of the population of the uk inc a fair amount of English would be happy being a smaller nation that doesn’t ‘have’ try to throw its weight around on the world stage.
FTFY.
Wee Krankie wants to be the first president of that there Scotland, not some spread-out Union.
globalti
Wee Krankie...
Sure you want to out yourself as a Daily Mail reader? 🙂
TBH he already has.
epicyclo
Subscriber
seosamh77
Aye the Scots have never been involved in that.Indeed, we were sold that as Britannia bringing enlightenment and civilisation to the savages while we ripped off their resources, and I’m sure we still have some knuckle-dragging types who think that’s a good thing.
But nonetheless, being able to avoid being party to extra-territorial aggression and wars with our large neighbour for the benefit of large corporations glory of the Empire can only be a good thing.
I wouldn't rule it out tbh, not beyond the imagination that scotland will be up for tagging along on a few jollies.
seosamh77
I wouldn’t rule it out tbh, not beyond the imagination that scotland will be up for tagging along on a few jollies.
I suspect we'd sooner spend the money making life better for our own people rather than spending it on ending the lives of people living in distant lands.
Three countries that are physically unconnected would struggle to form a union.
Add in their geopolitical disadvantages and it looks somewhat harder.
That’s why nearly all the small central and Eastern European countries are acutely aware of how important it is for them to be integral members of the EU and NATO
This exactly.
Let's not forget that as independent countries they would need some form of military even if they weren't planning on going to war.
epicyclo
I suspect we’d sooner spend the money making life better for our own people rather than spending it on ending the lives of people living in distant lands.
You would, didn't know you spoke for the whole voting public though...
Alot of things will happen post independence that I suspect alot of nationalists are gonny take the hump at!
Alot of things will happen post independence that I suspect alot of nationalists are gonny take the hump at!
I look forward to that day Seosamh, Scotland can then start to function like any normal country
If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas
You just need to look across the water to see how arguments like that work out.
Where is the new boarder(s) going to be, or are you just suggesting ethnic cleansing?
Let’s not forget that as independent countries they would need some form of military even if they weren’t planning on going to war.
Ireland has an army which deploys regularly for the UN, not a massive one but Ireland is a neutral state.
From the op;
equitable political union.
I would say not a chance.
It’s all quite a novel idea, Scotland and Wales never gave much of a toss, quite the opposite when they as Britain occupied Ireland, but now you’ve shot yourselves in the foot that was just an English thang and we’re all celts together 🙂
seosamh77
You would, didn’t know you spoke for the whole voting public though…Alot of things will happen post independence that I suspect alot of nationalists are gonny take the hump at!
I don;t speak for the whole voting public, just like you don't. But as you well know there is little support for offensive military spending amongst those supporting independence, eg opposition to Trident, seeing no point in having aircraft carriers etc so we can "punch above our weight".
I don't know any independence supporters who are not realistic about post independence. For starters the Frankenstein party of the SNP will fracture along normal political lines, but the nice thing is we'll be getting the government we choose.
Independence is normal.
From a neutral (live in Manchester) point of view I'm not sure what a celtic union would practically improve because all nations within it would want their own parliament, unless it's just to share a President ? It'll be hilarious watching the royal family get the hump when they realise they aren't going to be wanted in Scotland. Take Balmoral and all the land back 🙂
Ads678 got it right, most people in England are thoroughly dissatisfied with the Westminster clique too.
all nations within it would want their own parliament, unless it’s just to share a President
That's the biggest thing I have never understood about the UK: the non-federalist assumption.
In Canada, where I originally come from, you have ten provinces and three territories. The provinces each have their own parliamentary assemblies with their own prime ministers, their own tax-raising powers, their own approach to education (the limits for which seem to be imposed by Canadian convention alone), their own right to budget for and administer 'medicare' (as long as every citizen can access it free at point of use), etc., etc.
The Parliament in Ottawa, then, deals with monetary policy, foreign affairs, the military, the national police and security, facilitating inter-provincial relations, national highways, national parks, etc.
And to be clear, not every province is even close to equal in terms of population, history, economy, etc. Appointments to the Upper Chamber (the Senate) equalise the regions at the national level, as to 'equalisation payments' to the provinces from national coffers, in order to bolster the economic life of provinces with smaller budgets.
Why couldn't this work in a hypothetical Celtic Union, or even in today's UK? We make such a big deal of devolution, but it actually works in federated countries. Then Scotland could fly the EU flag all it wanted, because it would have right to do so.
You have not explained why, after hundreds of years of fighting for independence, one million dead in the famine a massive diaspora but now a relatively vibrant, much more tolerant than the UK, society Ireland would want to throw its hat back in with 2/3s of the oppressors when it is perfectly happy with the EU.
I thought Quebec wanted out anyway?