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Not seeing much evidence of anything apart from toddlers throwing a tantrum because they didn’t get their own way.
Good job I didn't rely on you worrying about my mental health, huh. 🙂
Remainers need to get over it and start thinking about how to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s of this world instead of licking their wounds and crying about how unfair it all is.
Ww've been trying for five years and here we are. 🙂 I don't know if anyone's particularly crying about the unfairness of it, more venting about what a stupid crock of shit it all is. And if leavers were allowed 40 years of bitching about the EU, why can't remainers bitch about leaving?
So the best way to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s “of this world” is not too draw any attention to the damage they are causing.
Where did I say that? By all means expose the lies of brexit, but if you think standing on the sidelines hoping and praying it's as bad as you think it's going to be so that you can then claim a moral victory is going to get one over on the brexiteers then you're sadly mistaken. That's what they want you to do, because it's an easy excuse to carry on with the 'remoaner' narrative.
We need to move on. Start identifying the benefits (yes, there are some whatever you may think), use them to build support for an alternative to US style capitalism, make a distinction between neo-liberalism and social democratic progressive capitalism, use the idea of 'sovereignty' against the capitalist ultras, we didn't give up our EU membership with all it's benefits to hand power to the billionaires etc. There are any number of ways labour and the wider liberal remainer left can attack the tories, but they need to abandon the EU nostalgia and look forwards. From what I can see Starmer whipping his MPs to vote for the deal is a signal that he wants to do that. He may well win back my support if he does.
And if leavers were allowed 40 years of bitching about the EU, why can’t remainers bitch about leaving?
Feel free, if you want to behave like they did.
I actually think Starmer should've voted against on the basis of this deal being worse than no deal. The deal is excellent for the EU and appalling for us. He would've lost but could make an oppositional argument without falling into a "remoaner" trap.
hoping and praying it’s as bad as you think it’s going to be
Well, I for one have never done that, and have actively criticised those that do. You on the other hand come up with lies such as "it's just about tariffs"... by all means hope for the best, we all are... but people are not about to "move on"... because there are years of dealing with the fallout of this ahead, and pretending that things aren't changing will not help people deal with the changes, or help unseat the people who have taken the reigns of power almost exclusively off the back of all this.
Start identifying the benefits
Please... do elaborate... there are bound to be benefits for some... I'd love to hear the ones you've identified, and who exactly benefits.
use them to build support for an alternative to US style capitalism
Say what now? Have you been asleep for 4 years?
On a practical level what does this mean for mountain biking? How much is insurance going to cost now for 10 days in Morzine, will I need a carnet for my bike? Etc etc
by all means hope for the best, we all are…
I don't think that's true at all. I get a very strong sense of people itching to say "told you so".
Feel free, if you want to behave like they did.
The "winners"? I neither need nor want your permission, but sure, why not?
Well at least it gives all the whiners something different to blame all their ills on, it’ll make a change from the miners strike or Maggie or whatever else. Whereas others will find a way to make it work and get on with their lives.
What else could he have done? He’s leading a minority, their voters deserted them in big numbers due to the various failings of the Labour Party. He’s stuck, and cant do anything else.
Voting against it would do nothing, apart from giving the Conservatives more fuel for their media attacks against the Labour Leader. He also has many Leave voters who support his Party, so would upset them even more if he had voted against.
Simple, abstain.
Not that tricky a question really. Make a statement that this Brexit agreement is entirely owned by the Tories and leave them to vote it through.
Job done.
this deal being worse than no deal
I worry about your mental health, and would expect that kind of nonsense from a toddler.
[not really, just trying on your approach to see how it feels... it feels pretty hollow]
I worry about your mental health, and would expect that kind of nonsense from a toddler.
Gosh, my comment about mental well-being (not mental health, please try to quote accurately in future) really pushed your buttons, didn't it?
I was serious by the way: if the vitriol here is anything more than sounding off then I don't think it's at all good for you. Which is why I've resolved to look forward: others can make their own decisions.
The “winners”? I neither need nor want your permission, but sure, why not?
Because it's equally pathetic. But your choice, as you say.
Controversial view:
Those who put Corbyn at the top of the Labour Party are at least as culpable as those who put Johnson at the top of the Tories. An unelectable opposition was a green light for the most ridiculous of brexits.
And some good news now that we have left - Tampon VAT to be abolished as from today.
Tampon Tax -BBC report.
because there are years of dealing with the fallout of this ahead, and pretending that things aren’t changing will not help people deal with the changes
What changes do you mean? For the vast majority in this country, and certainly in brexit voting areas, very little will substantially change. Some will lose out, some will gain, most will see little difference in the drudgery of everyday life, and they'll wonder what all the fuss is about.
Whereas others will find a way to make it work and get on with their lives.
See, we've had this for years as well. The people pointing out what is going on are very often the people getting on with dealing with it. It is not either or. I worked last night, and I'm about to get back to it, making sure that changes are bedded in for the new way we sell to EU customers. Getting on with dealing with the years of changes ahead does not prevent us talking about those changes... in fact awarenesses of what is happening is essential to deal with it. Ignorance is not bliss I'm afraid.
What changes do you mean?
There are two long threads about them already... let's not do it all again here. They absolutely touch everyone's lives... but many will choose to blame something other than Brexit, and this "get Brexit done" government, for the negative impact on their lives.... and the newspapers will help them. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to go all ostrich like to make them feel better about themselves.
Maybe the “scum” voted the way they did because partly they sensed many of their “betters” regarded them as scum.
So they had to go and prove it by voting in line with Farage and his 'long line of brown skinned people' poster.
Hats off to them for confirming their status.
Those who put Corbyn at the top of the Labour Party are at least as culpable as those who put Johnson at the top of the Tories. An unelectable opposition was a green light for the most ridiculous of brexits.
Corbyn's great failure was to give in to the remainers in his own party and the other opposition parties. If he'd stuck to his guns we would've been out with Theresa May's deal, which would've been far preferable to what we have now. As shadow brexit secretary during that period, Starmer also has much to answer for.
Because it’s equally pathetic. But your choice, as you say.
If it isn't already obvious, I could not give one tiny turd what your sanctimonious arse thinks from so high a horse. 😉
IMO....
Brexit was sold as many things to many people but at the end of the day, it was never really about "an ideaology" or anything else, it was about money. It's always about money. Nationalism, xenaphobia, waving flags, singing patriotic songs - all things used to "sell" Brexit, but not what Brexit was actually about.
Maybe even the "divisions in the Tory party " were a part of the very early prep work put in place by the people with the ultimate goal in sight. Not Brexit, money.
People like to say "Turkeys don't vote for Christmas" - but what happens when the Turkeys DO start voting for Christmas?
Those who put Corbyn at the top of the Labour Party are at least as culpable as those who put Johnson at the top of the Tories. An unelectable opposition was a green light for the most ridiculous of brexits.
Agreed. But at the back of my mind I have a nagging doubt about whether the problem was Corbyn being unelectable or the right wing press painting him as such.
Interested in your views on this? ( I still think the former)
So they had to go and prove it by voting in line with Farage and his ‘long line of brown skinned people’ poster.
Hats off to them for confirming their status.
If you're going to criticise people for behaving in a particular way, it's probably best if you stop behaving that way yourself.
If it isn’t already obvious, I could not give one tiny turd what your sanctimonious arse thinks from so high a horse. 😉
We both know that's not true, because you keep replying to me. It's a classic case of cognitive dissonance.
And some good news now that we have left – Tampon VAT to be abolished as from today.
Here is your reminder that Ireland already has 0% tax on tampons, and they are an EU country.
Remainers need to get over it and start thinking about how to combat the Rees-Moggs and Raab’s of this world instead of licking their wounds and crying about how unfair it all is.
2 issues with that statement:
1: We won't have a chance to change our government for 4 years.
2: If we 'get over it' we lose our voice.
We need to keep our voices so that we can hold this government to task at every opportunity we can, namely when their lies are exposed or they have to concede on a point they said we wouldn't have to. It is only by doing this can we have a hope of getting them out of power at the next election.
We. Will. Remind. You. Of. It. Forever.
Like it, even has the three word slogan x2 in there so beloved of the architects of it too.
Just out of interest, does @molgrips still support his previous assertion that it is ok to prioritise UK investment to London because that's what gives the highest rate of return?
Does anyone here fear the legitimisation of the far right and their views? Lets face it, the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit did it on a purely populist/racist ideology. It has happened in the US over the last four years and certainly hasn't been dealt with in anyway, whats to stop it from creeping in here? I don't see it selling any newspapers, and the Tories have got what they wanted, so I can't see either of them openly pushing the far right agenda, unless they seek a bogeyman (EU, Jonny foreigner )to blame for the Brexit sh!t show to follow. Either way, there is a big white Elephant in the room that will need addressing.
Looking on the bright side for a minute, though.
When the pound drops even further in value there will be much less chance of running into hordes of pissed up, boorish british yobs on holiday abroad.
Every cloud and all that....
If you’re going to criticise people for behaving in a particular way, it’s probably best if you stop behaving that way yourself.
Not when their way is stupid and based on bigotry, no it isn't.
And some good news now that we have left – Tampon VAT to be abolished as from today.
Here is your reminder that Ireland already has 0% tax on tampons, and they are an EU country.
Not quite what you were intending I think:
Ireland levies no value-added tax on tampons, panty liners, and sanitary towels. Ireland is the only EU country to have a zero tax rate on sanitary goods. While other European Union countries are barred from creating zero-rated value added taxes, Ireland's exemptions are grandfathered.
But there is hope for 'them'.
Unlike their bigotry there is a way to avoid mine.
To avoid their bigotry would involve all sorts of difficult stuff. Skin lightening treatments, renouncing religions etc.
To avoid mine, they don't need any of that. They just need to stop acting like ****s.
The door is always open!
😘🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
Ireland’s exemptions are grandfathered
Indeed. "We" choose not to zero rate here, and "we" chose not to back proposals to exempt these products when floors were added at the EU level. Unlike other products where "we" zero rated and/or made the EU exclude them from the flooring. All UK decisions. The 5% floor is only there for these products because of UK government decisions. "We" made the decisions... [and if you think those were the wrong decisions, I throughly agree]
Not when their way is stupid and based on bigotry, no it isn’t.
Obviously it's your choice to carry on calling people " scum" and "stupid" if they disagree with you. But as a way of winning the argument, it doesn't seem to be working terribly well.
Does anyone here fear the legitimisation of the far right and their views? Lets face it, the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit did it on a purely populist/racist ideology. It has happened in the US over the last four years and certainly hasn’t been dealt with in anyway, whats to stop it from creeping in here?
It scares the crap out of me to be honest. My uncle has always been a racist bigot but we, as a family, have always known this and just ignored what he says. Over the last 2-3 years though my parents, especially my mum who spends a decent amount of time talking to him, have started to use the same rhetoric and language as him when the subject of Brexit has come up. I've called them both out on it a number of times and they both deny they've changed. I've seen similar changes in others too so the far right views are taking hold in society more than they did before in my little world.
Not when their way is stupid and based on bigotry, no it isn’t.
Obviously it’s your choice to carry on calling people ” scum” and “stupid” if they disagree with you.
Smart people can chose a stupid way based on bigotry.
We've done this to death in the other two threads though.
I’ve seen similar changes in others too so the far right views are taking hold in society more than they did before in my little world.
Every now and then I watch a bit of an episode of Question Time, or some other political rant type show, from the last century. The extremists of then are pretty much indistinguishable from some of the mainstream politicians of today. And that movement of social and political norms isn't over... sadly... the next decade could get very messy here.
Does anyone here fear the legitimisation of the far right and their views? Lets face it, the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit did it on a purely populist/racist ideology.
Yes. And if history teaches us one thing it is that a failing economy benefits the far right.
The ones who thought they were ever so clever in appearing just racist enough to won the referendum vote, mostly, don't give a shit one way or the other. The racist thugs are just useful idiots for them.
But they will be off in some sun-kissed paradise with their loot when the political crack-up comes. For them this was a one-off, last chance at a payday from the postwar consensus. That they easily hoodwinked and duped a lot of the people who are going to be worst affected is highly amusing, but only for a while. But make no mistake about it, for a lot of people voting for Leave was the start of what they hope is a far right 'project'. When they finally realise they've been stitched up, the consequences could be dire.
Just out of interest, does @molgrips still support his previous assertion that it is ok to prioritise UK investment to London because that’s what gives the highest rate of return?
I don't think I ever made that assertion. I do remember pointing out that particular argument though. That's not the same as me asserting anything. The world is too complex for such black and white thinking.
Does anyone here fear the legitimisation of the far right and their views? Lets face it, the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit did it on a purely populist/racist ideology. It has happened in the US over the last four years and certainly hasn’t been dealt with in anyway, whats to stop it from creeping in here?
It's already here - the media space is ram-packed with paid for polemicists with degrees in media studies and English commentating on economics, migration, epidemiology and whatnot. There's a concerted and well funded effort to shift the Overton Window as far right as it can possibly go.
It really is this bleak, TBH.
Anyway, for me this thread has just become another side thread. I'm out of this one. But just to address the original sentiment.
We. Will. Always. Remind. You. Of. It.
This isn't ever going to 'go away' and be accepted. Ever.
Well at least it gives all the whiners something different to blame all their ills on, it’ll make a change from the miners strike or Maggie or whatever else. Whereas others will find a way to make it work and get on with their lives.
I don’t think they’ll ever stop whining about either of those until the day they die , and that’ll probably be Maggies fault too 😉
We both know that’s not true, because you keep replying to me. It’s a classic case of cognitive dissonance.
Of course, blossom. Obviously, it'd much easier if we all just agreed with you, wouldn't it? But what meaning would your sad, empty life have with no-one to troll? 🙂
Feeling a little hungover today, but this thread has really cheered me up.
Sore losers 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
^^^ Brexit DOES have an upside! 🙂
Remind me again - what did we win? I've forgotten already.
Feeling a little hungover today, but this thread has really cheered me up.
Sore losers
This is the sad thing, even those who see themselves as 'winners' in this, are still part of the losing side.
We (the UK, apart from a few venture capitalists and billionaires) have all come out of this poorer.
Gloat all you want, but you're still in the same boat as the rest of us.
I'm expecting the £350M per week for the NHS to be announced today - or maybe Monday, since this is a bank holiday. And my unicorn should be delivered on Monday too.
Those expectations are likely to be dashed, just as @ransos's hope that Brexit will be an opportunity to build a proper social democracy in the UK. It appears that he's spent the last 10 years ignoring what is going on. We have a Tory government that is committed to driving the poor from poverty into destitution, and a Labour party determined to avoid being elected. Add their reluctance to show up to the proposed boundary changes, and the Tories will be in power for the next 20 or 30 years. There will be no levelling up, just more shovelling of government money into their cronies pockets. There will be no movement towards a proper democracy, just a slow slide into authoritarianism. I will not forget, and I will not forgive, but short of an armed uprising this is what our future looks like.
Yes, I am sore.. Like I was in 2004 when I got home from a New Year trip and found my home ransacked.
We have lost so much and gained
Nothing
Woke up this morning heartbroken, sitting watching news now and I could cry!!
The only way to move on from this is how to stop something like this happening again?
We now seem to be in an age of dis-information, lies and manipulation..
Where does it end?
It's ended.
Sorry, that was a lie.
Anyway, for me this thread has just become another side thread.
It would appear so. Let me get the hammer.