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You **** what?!
Am I not a vocal and persistent Brexit critic? Have I not excoriated it many times over the years? On this very thread a few pages back I explain why it is not something that can be moved on from.
Why then do you persist with the myths that
1) Its irreversible
2) that labour need to take a pro brexit decision
3) refute that the very first thing we need to do to combat the decline is reverse brexit
No brexit did not come from the blue but until its reversed the UK will continue to decline and the things you want to see improved are much much harder. Brexit came from manipulation of the voters by a small cabal for their own purposes
Until the UK political establishment start telling the truth about brexit then it will remain as the single biggest thing damaging the UK. Its totally corrupted public life for example
Brexit is not irreversible TJ, but for folk our age it probably is.
I’m hoping my sons get it live in a more open and inclusive world than we do - much as we might wish we did now.
However, Brexit was pretty much a non-issue a during the last Labour administration, and peak Brexit popularity was in 2014. It was waning by 2016 and just squeaked in. So I may be overestimating how long it will take.
The time to be part of a free Europe again is some time in the future. The time to start fighting for it was 2016, and failing that, now.
Yes there are other issues, but Brexit contributes to several of them and solves none. In a democratic country we get to change our minds, and that’s a decision worth changing our minds about.
Brexit is not irreversible TJ, but for folk our age it probably is.
Why? If labour had been putting the blame on the tories where it should be and repudiating brexit strongly pointing out all the ill consequences how much more would the public mood have turned? its now 2:1 rejoin.
Labour are now a bigger obstacle to rejoin than the tories. their position holds no logic nor sense and by blatantly lying as they are they pollute political discourse.
Why then do you persist with the myths that
1) Its irreversible
2) that labour need to take a pro brexit decision3) refute that the very first thing we need to do to combat the decline is reverse brexit
Ok first of all - you go straight in with referring to my points as 'myths' as if that's in any way a provable fact. That is passive-agressive behaviour, please don't do this. You're being egregious again.
So I'll try to engage more nicely 🙂
1) I don't think it's irreversable.
2) Labour don't need to be pro Brexit, and I don't believe they are. They just need to move on from the whole toxic debate, for the time being. Remember, their core vote was split down the middle, and it would be a disaster for that to happen again. It's not about ideology or policy here, it's just about getting votes. You m may not like that, but it's the reality of democracy.
3) It's not politically possible here in the UK to reverse the decision immediately. Most of the electorate would go 'oh **** no not this shit again' and be very unhappy. There are (or were) polls that said that whilst a lot of people thought it had been a bad idea, they thought that we should just get on with it for now. This is all about the question being asked: Being in favour of something hypothetically is not the same as wanting to do it right now instead of other things.
The biggest issue we face right now are ending austerity and funding services properly. And I'm far more concerned with Starmer's stance on that than I am regarding the EU because whilst as you know I am passionately pro-EU, I accept the political reality that Starmer faces. Remember that whilst you love political shit-slinging, most people hate it and he knows that he needs people's support not antipathy.
I think the upshot of molgrip's post is that someone somewhere has to put forward definite policies the "re-engage" with Europe in order to mitigate the damage inflicted by Brexit given that there is little chance of rejoining the EU in the foreseeable future.
Play nicely 🙂
AllI want is an honest policy on brexit from labour and again you put the myths as facts - those are not just your or opinions - they are myths
There is no reason why labour could not be going wholeheartedly for rapproachment with the EU. Thats a myth that they cannot
Labour are pro brexit - they have become a brexiteer party. Thats just a simple statement of fact. They have adopted a hard brexit position.
I think the upshot of molgrip’s post is that someone somewhere has to put forward definite policies the “re-engage” with Europe in order to mitigate the damage inflicted by Brexit given that there is little chance of rejoining the EU in the foreseeable future.
Why is there little chance? Labour are not doing that anyway. SNP are. Rejoin ASAP is firm policy and despite all their troubles are still going to be the largest party in Scotland after the next GE.
No one will explain why this myth that we cannot rejoin in the foreseeable is reality - there is no reason at all bar political couwardice
AllI want is an honest policy on brexit from labour and again you put the myths as facts – those are not just your or opinions – they are myths
What's the difference between my opinion of a situation and a myth?
Using that word does not count as 'playing nicely'.
No one will explain why this myth that we cannot rejoin in the foreseeable is reality
I'm trying to. You call it political cowardice, I call it prudence. You can't just do whatever YOU want as a political leader - because you need millions of people to vote for you. You would end up brave but out of power.
The polls that say 'we would like to rejoin' are not enough. There are way more factors than that. There is more to running a country than being in or out of the EU, and there is more to winning votes than picking a single issue, especially a highly contentious one.
We CAN theoretically rejoin immediately. But I think that any UK-wide party that puts this at the top of their manifesto would lose a lot of votes. SKS agrees with me.
Farage admitted the £350 mil thing was not true on QT before the vote. I remember clearly.
Thats not what the polls show Molgrips - the polls show a policy of rapproachement would be a clear vote winner. 2:1 rejoin and a policy of rapproacment would mean giving all the blame for the mess to the tories rather than taking some of it themselves. I understand why Starmer chose that path - and its all due to political cowardice. He backed the wrong horse in his acceptance of brexit, caused even more damage to the country as a result, gave the Tories a free ride onit and went against the interests and wishes of the majority of labour voters. Where is the leadership?
Why are they myths? Because they have become accepted wisdom without anything to backit up. Thats what myth is
Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly.
Hmm. I’ll disagree. Brexit is a symptom of even deeper problems.
Point of order here, these two notions are not incompatible.
Brexit was fuelled by those "deeper problems" but the issue really is that it was presented as a boil-in-the-bag solution to all our ills before any questions were asked. It's my perpetual PC fiddler uncle ringing up asking me how to reinstall Windows when the actual problem is that his printer has run out of yellow ink. Sure, I can talk you through a rebuild but no-one's stopped to ask why you want to do a reinstall and at the end of the day you'll still be out of ink.
But why do we have Brexit? A seed needs fertile ground in which to grow. Brexit did not start in 2015.
Ooh, ooh, hold my beer, I have an actual brexit benefit!
All those racists that we thought had gone away in our more progressive times but were actually hiding in plain sight? They've felt empowered to speak up, we know who they are now.
There are (or were) polls that said that whilst a lot of people thought it had been a bad idea, they thought that we should just get on with it for now.
Yeah, no. The thing you need to understand, the thing that even now the Remain voters are only just beginning to realise, is that whilst many (not all, Daz) Leave voters were useful idiots, the campaign itself was really clever. It was a masterclass in deception. It utterly demolished the Remain argument because we were trying to appeal to the head rather than the heart, naively believing that people care about things like "facts" in the face of MPs crowing that we've all had enough of experts.
But.
It persists.
It's been sewn into the heads of the proletariat that, perversely, changing our minds would be undemocratic. We had a vote, right? Will of the people. Why do you hate democracy? Etc etc.
Not only have we been sold a unicorn which turned out wholly predictably to be a zebra with an ice cream cone Araldited to its forehead, we've been brainwashed into thinking it cannot be questioned/challenged/reviewed and then attempted to be bullied into silence. How many times have we heard narratives along the lines of "accepting the result" or "shut up and get on with it" or "we won you lost"?
These bawbags don't care. In the red corner we have those believing that it has to be this way because Democracy/Sovereignty, in the blue corner we see the "leave means leave" brigade who just wanted out, period. I reckon if we'd run a media propaganda campaign in September 2016 going "yeah, we've left now" 90% of the brexity populace would have gone "oh good" and all of this would have gone away. Yet instead we have this bizarre situation where... it's like, you know the hypothetical "five monkeys" experiment?
Whoever it was who said earlier that brexit is a journey is bang on. If you think that their skulldugerous machinations have stopped because the last overstuffed sofa in DFS "got it done," you're a fool.
Why are they myths? Because they have become accepted wisdom without anything to backit up. Thats what myth is
I am not quoting accepted wisdom, it's simply my opinion of what I see. Others may agree.
There are few facts in any of this.
Whoever it was who said earlier that brexit is a journey is bang on. If you think that their skulldugerous machinations have stopped
There was skullduggery by right wing ****s long before Brexit and there will be long afterwards.
Why is there little chance? Labour are not doing that anyway. SNP are.
Well bully for Scotland. They will need independence fist but good luck to them on both counts. I appreciate the polls suggest a majority in favour of rejoining but then again the feeling pre-Brexit was that only idiots would vote for it. Polls eh?
2:1 in favour of rejoin and growing all the time
Its perfectly possible for a party to make rejoin a key pledge.
it’s simply my opinion of what I see.
That’s not allowed.
Its perfectly possible for a party to make rejoin a key pledge.
Not if they want to be in govt. TJ you’re far more politically savvy than this.
Its claiming its an immutable reality that is challenged.
Depends what there is to rejoin. If the EU heads further in the direction of federalism then no way, if it heads back to being more of an economic block then maybe. The UK will never give up its status as an independent nation state. It all depends on how the EU changes over the next 20 years.
Not if they want to be in govt. TJ you’re far more politically savvy than this.
I'm savvy enough to know Starmer is making a huge mistake and one the UK will never recover from
Of course if he hasd shown some leadership and personal strength by now the clamour to rejoin would be irresistible - its still 2:1 in favour of rejoin with labour and the tries denying it. Starmer is fight against public opinion, against the wishes of his voters and against the interests of the country. Imagine if he had shown some leadership?
Its a huge error and is a clear vote loser. How come you think only the tories can mold public opinion? I think it will cost him a working majority
Yes i am politically savvy enough to not take his feeble excuses as he morphed into a hard brexiteer and his frankly appalling pandering to a few racists
Oh and Dazh - back to the " you cannot be an independent country in the EU"
So, they have the biggest poll lead ever, and you think his advisers should get him to completely change tactics?
Seriously?
too late now to change - he has nailed his colours to the hard brexiteer standard. that does not stop it being a massive blunder. None of the labour voters I know will vote labour now because of his enthusiastic adoption of a hardest of hard brexits and the damage to the cvountry willnever be recovered from
. Its not the biggest poll lead ever. Its barely enough for a majority inmost polls - especially the more accurate ones - and also the polling and recent byelections show how soft the labour vote is in that its not a vote for labour, its a vote against the tories and could easily fall again
His lead is thanks to the Tories. If you asked Joe Public what his policies were they would be dumbfounded, his missions and pledges keep changing and being scaled back anyway.
Im sorry, but my opinion is that folks, in the last couple of pages of this thread, keep stating that things are ‘facts’ when I do not agree that they are. I think there is a danger that many of us hang around and chat with like-minded people. So in such an environment, I think it is easy to convince ourselves that everyone thinks like us. I.e. dislike Brexit, and are keen for rapprochement.
But honestly, imo, I wouldn’t be surprised if a vote tomorrow wasnt much closer (again) than people like us think. I am 100% certain that there are a huge number of folks who voted for brexit first time around and who would do exactly the same again. ‘Facts’ and logic matter very little in any discussion with those brexit supporters. I assume that’s because it seemed to be an emotional subject, rather than a rational one.
so it’s easy for me to say here that brexit was a financial disaster and that every reasonable person knew that it would be. But there are millions of people who would disagree and say that the problem is that the remoaners stopped Boris and his buddies getting brexit done properly. Financial ‘facts’ don’t matter one whit to many of those people. Just like facts about the American election don’t seem to matter one whit to millions of Trump supporters. Again, it’s not rational debate that seems to matter - it’s an appeal to people’s emotional, deep-seated desires.
Its not the biggest poll lead ever. Its barely enough for a majority inmost polls
Oh? Where do you get that information from? Can you explain how the Politico average of all polls looks like this?
Those numbers - 45/27/ll - are enough for a 289 seat majority according to electoral calculus.
But honestly, imo, I wouldn’t be surprised if a vote tomorrow wasnt much closer
@johnhe that was probably the best post of this entire thread. You’re right, in fact I’d go further and say if the brexit vote was repeated tomorrow it would be a nailed on yes by roughly the same margin. It’s not a rational debate and rightly or wrongly many voters, both leave and remain are willing to see how it works out.
Nice justification for your position - shame the polls show remain or rejoin as 2:1 at least in favour and shifting further that way ( alot higher remain / rejointhan the polls before the vote) and thats with both main english parties being enthusiastic brexiteers. No one who is for remain is " waiting to see how it works out" Its very clear - its an utter disaster.
The lengths folk will go to to justify becoming hard brexiteers and supporting the labour position ...................................
Nice justification for your position
Not really you don't even understand what my position is. All I'm saying is, with polls like that, you'd have a hard time convincing the party to stop what it's doing and do something else.
with both main english parties being enthusiastic brexiteers
That's a gross mis-representation. You're ruining the debate with stuff like this.
The lengths folk will go to to justify becoming hard brexiteers and supporting the labour position
And that's even worse. I will get very ****ing angry if you call me a Brexiteer.
Aimed at Dazh molgrips. I do understand your position. I simply disagree with it
Both labour and tories are now hard brexiteers. thats a simple fact. Look at the positions of both. the hardest of hard brexits. Its a complete pretense to deny it. No CU,No SM. no 4 freedoms. hard brexit. Its not ruining the debate to point out the simple truth. its not a misrepresentation. Stamer has adopeted a hard brexit position and will not be shifted. there is no debate if you deny this simple fact. labour are enthusiastic hard brexiteers - thats their policy " make brexit work"
And that’s even worse. I will get very **** angry if you call me a Brexiteer.
Again aimed at Dazh - but if the hat fits? Maybe brexit apologist for you because that is what you espouse on here. You support labours hard brexit policy do you not?
I find it incredibly insulting to be told hard brexit with no rapprochement is the only way. I find it offensive to be told black is white ie that labour are not enthusiastic hard brexiteers as a policy when thats what all the policy statements make them
Maybe brexit apologist for you because that is what you espouse on here.
Not even remotely the case. Your reading comprehension skills really are terrible.
I find it incredibly insulting to be told hard brexit with no rapprochement is the only way.
That's not what I am saying and not what I have ever said. I'm in favour of full rejoin. The only difference is that I appreciate why Starmer can't come out and say that now. That's all I'm saying.
This thread is like a roundabout with no exits, round and round and round they go 🤣
Yeah I've already decided not to engage any more.
How's that flounce working out for you, Daz?
For someone who's vocally proclaimed to be leaving, your fingers appear to be doing an awful lot of impotent flapping up and down still.
Anyway. Benefits, then?
This thread is like a roundabout with no exits, round and round and round they go
TBH it just embraces the true majesty of Brexit.
The greatest political machination ever played,it pushed the U.K. into an alternative fantasy reality.
The ultimate irony is Brexit delivers the exact opposite of what it promised,if it actually delivers anything at all.
Not even remotely the case. Your reading comprehension skills really are terrible.
What have I missed?
You state its impossible for labour to have a policy of rejoin and you support the labour policy of continuing hard brexit.
That’s not what I am saying and not what I have ever said. I’m in favour of full rejoin. The only difference is that I appreciate why Starmer can’t come out and say that now. That’s all I’m saying.
Makes my point that you support the labour policy of hard brexit
If you are in favour of rejoin how can you support a party that has hard brexit for ever as its policy?
The ultimate irony is Brexit delivers the exact opposite of what it promised, if it actually delivers anything at all.
I absolutely agree with the first part of the sentence, and absolutely disagree with the second part.
The folk who wanted Brexit to happen are the ones benefiting, and are the very same folk that persuaded the masses to vote for something totally against their interests.
Brexit is just the start as we are seeing, but as I've said before, it's only once folk can't afford healthcare that it'll dawn on them what's happening.
I do though disagree with TJ on Starmer/Labour, they've to get into power in England and to get into power they need enough Brexit-voters (or ex-Brexit voters) to vote for them - once in they can do what they want (back to First Past The Post), but they need to get in.
For Scotland I'll continue to vote SNP, and so should he - they're our Govt and our only way out of the mess that the UK is becoming for ordinary folk.
Oh dear, I can't see a huge list of benefits just a lot of handbags at dawn. Maybe we should bring this thread to a close and start again.
and our only way out of the mess that the UK is becoming for ordinary folk.
And there in a single sentence is the nub of this. Many remainers simply don’t understand or refuse to acknowledge that for millions of people, the UK already was a mess for ordinary folk whilst we were in the EU. Everything has not suddenly got worse since we left in 2020. For the vast majority hardly anything has changed.
Many proponents of Leave simply didn’t give a shit that for some the UK already was a mess for ordinary folk whilst we were in the EU (Aaron Banks working class saviour - my arse!) For some hardly anything has changed but the Leave ranks still don’t care. For lots of others things are worse and there still isn’t a list of Brexit benefits other than some people didn’t notice the post Brexit bit of a mess that hasn’t even full unwound yet. Fyfy
Everything has not suddenly got worse since we left in 2020. For the vast majority hardly anything has changed
Well it's not a question of suddenly getting worse. We always knew that it would reduce our ability to do what we needed and respond to problems, by reducing our economic capability. Life got worse for most in the EU due to COVID, the Ukraine war and the associated inflation, but we are not as able to recover from it. We will face a gradual slide, not a sudden change. We will boil like frogs, people won't realise it. In fact, we have been boiling like frogs for many years.
Now of course, it is theoretically possible to recover without being in the EU or to prosper, but it is being made much much harder. And we cannot solve hard problems with the political institutions we have; we cannot even solve easy ones. Because currently there is no will to do so. We have very little competence across the whole political spectrum and we have now given ourselves a much harder challenge.
It has, they (and you it seems) just don’t realise it yet.
Enlighten me. Seeing as you seem to know how I’ve suffered I’m all ears as to how you think my life has been materially damaged by being out of the EU.
You must be one of the very few - are you insulated from the inflation it has caused?
Up here the damage is obvious. from destruction of industries to the collapse of hospitality trade for lack of staff
You really are sticking your head in the sand Dazh
are you insulated from the inflation it has caused?
I’ve already posted many times about inflation. It’s not a result of brexit.
Not disagreeing with the impact on the Scottish hospitality industry. But that hardly constitutes a material impact on the lives of everyone in the UK.
The UK will never give up its status as an independent nation state.
The clue is in the title here - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
It’s not and never has been an independent nation state. Presently it is four nations bound together in an economic union, defence union, partial legal union and no educational union. Someone will be able to fill me in on the niceties of the financial / monetary union, which I think is fairly but not completely a total union (tax issues for example).
Generalising for effect, the Scots and the Irish spotted the EU was just a prototype of a bigger better version of the UK. The northern Welsh spotted it too, but the southern Welsh and the English didn’t.
In particular the English (as a nation) failed to spot the economic union nature of the UK - or perhaps only liked economic unions where they were by far the biggest partners.
It’s not and never has been an independent nation state
Nonsense. The uK has been a sovereign (hate that word) nation state since 1705. The integration between England Scotland and wales is closer and more ingrained than anything between EU states. The two simply don’t compare. That’s why Scotland leaving would be far more catastrophic for Scotland than the UK leaving Europe ever could be.
I’ve already posted many times about inflation. It’s not a result of brexit.
But Brexit is making it worse and for longer. You appreciate that, right?
It’s not all a result of brexit.
If you think Brexit doesn't mean higher costs and prices (on top of other world events) you've bought into one of the main lies of the campaigns that we're still living with and need our politicians to work to fix (rather than ignore). We're only a few years away from the "rip-off Britain" headlines once the rags can rely on their readers to forget Brexit was a thing and that the barriers they* so embraced and pushed for are to blame.
[ *the papers, not the voters... UK voters have never voted to be cut off from Europe in the way papers and politicians pushed for after the Referendum, they just voted on one occasion to stop being an EU member, just like Norway and Switzerland aren't members ]
I’ve already posted many times about inflation. It’s not a result of brexit.
Its that old head in the sand again. Of course brexit caused inflation - it putextra costs on importing stuff. Its one of th emajor drivers
That’s why Scotland leaving would be far more catastrophic for Scotland than the UK leaving Europe ever could be.
apart from being in the union is catastrophic for us and being in the EU would be a huge boon. Independence is the only way to get away from the rest of the UK that is dragging us down
But Brexit is making it worse and for longer. You appreciate that, right?
Yes it’s a contributory factor, but compared to the Ukraine war and the hangover from covid only a small one. And also you can’t discount the outright greed of UK companies. Greedflation is absolutely a thing, and a direct result of small state neo-liberal ideology. Being in the EU would have done nothing to stop that.
Being in the EU would have done nothing to stop that.
Leaving the EU makes it worse. For example stopping buyers (consumer or business) from taking their purchase power elsewhere. Cutting ourselves of from Europe increases costs, reduces options, breaks supply chains and makes smaller companies and households fish in a barrel waiting for the big guys to take advantage of our self imposed isolation.
Just dropping in again for a quick check - anyone found any benefits yet?
I know there are other things that are also bad, this thread wasn't meant to be about all the bad things that Brexit, COVID, Ukraine war, Boris, Trump etc, etc, etc have caused. It was meant to be for the Brexit champions to remind me of what we have gained beyond being able to paint crowns on glasses and having different coloured paperwork.
Anything? Anyone?
this thread wasn’t meant to be about all the bad things that Brexit, COVID, Ukraine war, Boris, Trump etc, etc, etc
But you can’t talk about any of this stuff in isolation. It’s simplistic nonsense and serves very little purpose other than to obfuscate from the real issues. If you want to blame everything on brexit then go ahead, but don’t complain in 10 years when everything is still f*****.
It won’t be BTW, some things, maybe many things, will be better depending on the ambitions of Starmer and the Labour Party when they replace the tories. Starmer is on record about ‘making brexit work’. That actually gives me a tiny bit of hope because it means he’s going to have to break the mould to deliver on that promise.
Agreed but right now I think even simplistic nonsense would be a start.
A bit like the best remembered benefits from all the money spent on the space race and moon landings etc are non-stick frying mans and ballpoint pens that write upside down.
Would it be easier, and cause less arguments, to create a list of Brexit downsides?
The OP was a simple question ( maybe a deliberate act of poke the bear ) but a black and white, pro's and con's list of Brexit benefits.
I'll start with the current thing I'm dealing with, Erasmus or lack of it! My daughter goes to France in a month to study, and my word, we are jumping through some hoops, and shelling out lots of euro's to get her there.
Amazed this is still going, but some people still think Brexit is not a problem.
Yes, it's not just brexit. All economies are struggling with those non-brexit problems.
But they're all doing way better in terms of coping than the UK.
Brexit is the reason that the UK is now bottom of European OECD nations for economic growth, with only Russia for company.
Russia had sanctions imposed on it by the war.
UK is struggling with self-imposed sanctions thanks to Brexit
dazh - please either stop posting on this thread or choose a position and stick to it. You're just picking the alternative side of every argument right now and contradicting yourself multiple times. It's almost like you're bipolar (that's not a joke, I'm serious) and cannot walk away.
EC membership provided a steady flow of cheap labour. Since 2008 businesses failed to invest since capital could be substituted by labour. Since that time we've had the absence of organic growth, EC labour disappearing and hence businesses sweating assets, landlordism and 'pressing down on margins' aka profiteering to increase their share. So the redistribution from poor to rich has continued and the British economy is the worst performer in G7 etc etc.
Re-joining might make a bit of a difference but the major issue is the imbalance between capital and labour and neither major party is prepared to address that issue so it's pointless getting obsessed with the parliamentary musical chairs because they are not going to deliver for the majority. As that Guardian article pointed out, both parties are offering SFA apart from toilets, hanging, football, small boats, flags and so on.
Starmer is on record about ‘making brexit work’.
there is no making brexit work possible by an stretch of the meanings of the words. Nothing about it can work apart from the freedom to fiddle taxes
How do the other 165 countries not in the EU manage? I agree we'd be much better in but to say it's not possible for a country to function out of the EU is somewhat stretched. Blaming everything on Brexit is letting the government off their repeated failure and rather like brexiteers blaming everything on the EU (or more accurately foreigners)
How do the other 165 countries not in the EU manage?
Name a country not cooperating with its neighbours in a similar way as per…
EFTA, NAFTA, Mercosur…
You don’t need to be in the EU… but not being part of the Customs Union or Single Market of the countries that surround us is just plain bonkers for the people that actually live and work here. The extra advantage for us of being an EU member above and beyond being in EFTA or the Customs Union or Single Market is that we had control, especially as a large country. Now the EU will carry on setting the rules, not just for its own members but also for its neighbours and trading partners (hint, that means us).
"Making brexit work" surely means getting an advantage out of it. As this is impossible then there is no making brexit work
Nonsense. The uK has been a sovereign (hate that word) nation state since 1705. The integration between England Scotland and wales is closer and more ingrained than anything between EU states. The two simply don’t compare. That’s why Scotland leaving would be far more catastrophic for Scotland than the UK leaving Europe ever could be.
Not English by any chance, he asked innocently.
For what it’s worth, I’m a Scotsman and against independence. But the same arguments that work for Brexit work for Scots independence. I reckon their both wrong, but I can understand why TJ and other pro-independence folk disagree with me.
It's a golden age for anyone involved in the business of red tape, paperwork and bureaucracy, it created another 10K civil service jobs and decades of work for consultants to duplicate the processes of various European institutions, so it's not all bad.
“Making brexit work” surely means getting an advantage out of it.
Well that's the core of the issue. It could mean anything to anyone, depending on your sympathies. That's why they make political slogans like this.
To me, it signals that they want to start the process of rapprochement, but he's still having to rule out CM/SU for now because of the political reality. But to others, it might mean that they are going to make Britain into a golden city on a hill. Anything to anyone. It's not even a policy commitment, it's just a slogan. Like 'Brexit means Brexit' or 'we're all in this together'. Just meaningless slogans designed to evoke a sentiment in the listener. And the more listeners it evokes a positive sentiment in, the more votes you get. It has no actual practical policy-based meaning whatsoever!
Blaming everything on Brexit is letting the government off their repeated failure and rather like brexiteers blaming everything on the EU
An excellent point.
But the same arguments that work for Brexit work for Scots independence.
they really do not at at all. Thread drift and we have done it too many times 🙂
Many remainers simply don’t understand or refuse to acknowledge that for millions of people, the UK already was a mess for ordinary folk whilst we were in the EU.
1) This is a lie.
2) I thought you were flouncing? You see fit to lecture us about leaving the EU and yet you can't cope with leaving a forum thread. Which part of "leave" didn't you understand?
Enlighten me. Seeing as you seem to know how I’ve suffered I’m all ears as to how you think my life has been materially damaged by being out of the EU.
I'm lead to believe that you're loaded, so your life has likely been "materially damaged" far less than most. The initial infighting which sparked it aside, brexit was a vehicle to empower the rich.
Opportunity costs.
There have been a lot of those.
But why are we talking about the downsides @dazh, the question is about benefits. Go on, enlighten us. Tangible ones if you could.
One upside - many of the idiots have outed themselves good and proper
Couldn't agree more!
Yeah, there's a slim chance that might actually precipitate an end to the endless series of shit politicians we've had for decades, when we finally realise that they actually need to get shit done and be competent. People might realise that empty slogans don't actually help. The shit might finally hit the fan.
Some good new words and phrases.
Brexit, remoaner, brexiteer, bregret etc all fun.
Dazh - I just asked the question and am still waiting for a coherent and quantifiable benefit but shall be avoiding the pubs in Todmorden for a while anyway.
Bexit benefits in the short term are indeed thin on the ground. Longer term benefits could take years or even decades to reveal themselves.
For me, Bexit is only one symptom of the malaise affecting this nation. Rejoining the EU tomorrow might make it easier for the middle classes to pursue their continental lifestyles, but would do nothing to fix the fundamental problems we have.
Unless we can reform our political system to embed 'proper' democracy (where the make-up of Parliament better reflects votes cast) and foster a culture of more honest political debate, the UK will continue to sink beneath the waves.
EDIT - Post I was quoting is deleted so I am removing this to save the Mods time.
Thank you Mods.
The uK has been a sovereign (hate that word) nation state since 1705.
The UK is a state, but it is not a nation state.
All economies are struggling with those non-brexit problems.
But they’re all doing way better in terms of coping than the UK.
Well, not really. There are 10 EU economies with higher inflation than the UK, and all the rest are lower.
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=europe
Nah... I'm really struggling...
What was it, that was supposed to be so good?
One thing... just one...?
I think we have (genuinely) only had 'those that wanted out, regardless of cost or benefit, get to feel a sense of victory on the subject'
You could argue for the "sovereignty" garbage as well.
Alao lol at Daz who has "moved on with his life" by constantly talking about Brexit... still
And that’s even worse. I will get very **** angry if you call me a Brexiteer.
Labour’s position is a hard brexit position. A vote for Labour is a vote for hard brexit.
Yes it’s (mostly) happened and therefore it’s maintaining a hard brexit rather than implementing it, but it’s the same brexit either way.