You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
The Brexit vote was an intelligence test but sadly even Cameron had underestimated the amount of empty heads that frequent this country let alone all the tabloid readers and generally unsavoury individuals .Rees Mogg , Farage etc were however well aware and took full advantage ..becoming heroes in the process of completely screwing our country and removing numerous freedoms at the same time .
Benefits, then?
i think if we are honest we all have realised that there are no benefits.
also can i add, is anyone else embarrassed, like i am for falling for all the bullshit, and for voting out ?
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so.
And it’ll be the left that saves us from this mess
“The left” hasn’t uttered so much as a peep against brexit for the last 7 years. They whipped for it, voted for it, own it. Anyone still hoping that they will save us from it is utterly delusional.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so.
Our most Brexiteer club cyclist admitted much the same today. Wants to buy my passport off me.
Yeah one of my Brexity friends admitted the same a few weeks ago, said he had been completely misled (I had to bite my tongue quite hard to point our many of us had not due to engaging our brains) and yes Brexit was a crock.
@ton thank you for having the balls and decency to post that, maybe this country has a future after all.
also can i add, is anyone else embarrassed, like i am for falling for all the bullshit, and for voting out ?
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so.
Very courageous of you to admit that ton, very few have the guts to say it publicly even if they acknowledge it privately.
I nearly fell for the lies but changed my mind back to my original position on the morning of the vote. I was being swayed by all the right-wing people I worked with at the time and had spent 4 days straight with them and the two before with my parents who both voted out, seeing it as a vote against their perceived over-extension the of the original vote for joining the Economic Community (they both voted yes back then). Up until that point I had done a lot of proper research and decided that staying in was best by a decent margin but the ramping up of the Vote Leave campaign and it's success (that even surprised them let's not forget) was very powerful. I really was worried I was on the wrong 'side' on this one for a while.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so
Don’t be ashamed, be angry with those who took part in walking us up to the edge in the campaigns, and then used every dirty trick in the book to push us past the point of no return when they knew they no longer had a majority supporting them.
You are aware that the EU is doing this already, aren’t you?
Unfortunately yes. I wasn't trying to cheerlead for Brexit, just acknowledging an opportunity it supposedly presents us with, that we're failing to take advantage of.
The left” hasn’t uttered so much as a peep against brexit for the last 7 years. They whipped for it, voted for it, own it. Anyone still hoping that they will save us from it is utterly delusional.
Indeed.
If you can’t see that Brexit crossed political boundaries then you’ll never understand why it happened & never ever understand how to make it better!
ton
Full Member
i think if we are honest we all have realised that there are no benefits.also can i add, is anyone else embarrassed, like i am for falling for all the bullshit, and for voting out ?
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so.
If you don't mind me asking, when did you come to the realisation that you'd been sold a massive sack of bullshit? Weeks, months or years after the event?
**** me this thread is depressing.
yep but tbh it’s a fair question to ask.
I suppose the other one companion question ‘what can you do now,that you couldn’t do whilst we were in the eu’?
Would be just as good 🙂
i think if we are honest we all have realised that there are no benefits.
I think it’s worse, no benefits would be fine but it’s the other things that have been taken.
And side effects that the people elected(or not - Rishi sloppy seconds) to enact Brexit decided to do on a whim.
Like the protest bill,that you can use for pretty much anything.
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
Followed up by the forty new hospitals, now they would have been handy to have ready after covid.
So many lies but no need,just do it, that’s what the people wanted.
It’s the continual lies that get me.
If you don’t mind me asking, when did you come to the realisation that you’d been sold a massive sack of bullshit? Weeks, months or years after the event?
Com' on it was that nice honest Mr Johnson and Mr Liberal man of the people Nige.
Totally agree. The UK should join Schengen as other non-EU countries have. Probably a pipedream though given our* little-englander attitude. Give it a decade or so though I don’t think it would be completely outlandish to think we could in both the SM (or something similar without formal membership) and Schengen. Maybe those are reasonable goals to aim for rather than rejoining? As long as leave voters can still say ‘we’re out’ then I doubt they care too much about the rest of it. We need to get over the racism around immigration though.
*mostly a South East/Home counties problem IMO. I reckon the north would have no problem with free movement.
Care to quantify that??? Or do you think it’s only the South who have the monopoly on narrow minded biggots…..
They’re everywhere. Plenty in Wales, Scotland and the other parts of England. Basically the bits of the country where immigrants, illegal or legal, aren’t commonplace.
Oxford
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Cambridge
a person who has strong, unreasonable ideas, esp. about race or religion, and who thinks anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong
Whether something is obstinate or unreasonable is a bit vague..
and who thinks anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong
Well that's anyone with a monotheistic belief... even to the smallest differences such as catholic and protestant.
However nicely its put it amounts to the other belief being wrong.
However ... and here is a really ironic thing.
Many people believe that having diverse people in society enriches the culture for the good.
That is totally subjective, it s just your belief on how you define "enriches the culture for the good".
and to take that further you obstinately say their belief is wrong.
Plenty in Wales, Scotland and the other parts of England
Sure, buy a holiday home in Wales, come home to a real fire.
Most (a large percent anyway) of Northerners don't want their culture "polluting" by Southerners... on an even smaller scale Everton and Liverpool, Man Utd vs Man City this is basic human tribalism. Even wanting some English/British whatever football team to win a cup is tribalism...
The mistake IMHO is to say that these are separate things when they are a continuum.
It's also an observation based on living in many countries that what really concerns people in general is larger and larger numbers of "others" and when they are expected to accommodate them and/or they affect them in a way they view as negative.
I lived in Libya for years before the Arab spring and Palestinians (genuine refugees) were largely viewed as this... small things like they had to have special license plates on their cars (and these views were from people that didn't support ghadaffi) they just saw lots of Palestinians who were subtly different and highlighted by accent/dialect and different license plates. During the Arab spring many Libyans managed to leave with their families to neighbouring countries so many Tunisians were complaining about the immigrants Libyans..
There are a few people who are genuinely racist .. but not liking another culture or not wanting it to pervade your own in just normal xenophobia. Some people also genuinely want to expand their culture... and that has the same merits but name calling and such doesn't make people agree more, rather the opposite.
ton
i think if we are honest we all have realised that there are no benefits.
also can i add, is anyone else embarrassed, like i am for falling for all the bullshit, and for voting out ?
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
and now looking back i am pretty ashamed and annoyed that i did so.
Total respect for saying that but HOW ???
Forget the "to the NHS" part .. (that was just a broken promise never meant to be kept) but the £350M/wk was debunked from day 1 ???
With respect did you believe the "£350M" or the "spend it on the NHS instead" or both???
Without meaning to put words in your mouth did you know the ££50M was a lie and think "but its still a lot of money and they are telling the truth about the NHS bit?" Did the think the basic accounting of what we paid was false? Did you just avoid reading/watching anything contradicted it?
I'm genuinely in confusion as to how anyone continued believing this right up to the referendum?
(and by extension the rest of the lies but can you put this one into words? )
i dont seem to remember when exactly. i just hoped that there would be some changes for the good. and as of yet, i have not seen anything good happen from it at all.
i think we a truly a broken country. and i mean in every way. our government, our hospitals, our justice system, our road and transport system. and it all bothers me.
the one thing that doesnt seem to annoy or bother me is the immigration. i dont give a monkeys arse how many illegal or legal people come. good on em for wanting a better life.
i just wish it was as easy for us british people to go the other way, but it appears we have truly ****ed ourselves up with that option now.
i have been into europe on a few occasions touring on the bike since we opted out. place like norway, holland, belgium and france make our pathetic country look almost 3rd world and underdeveloped .
Big props to ton for coming out and saying it. Most people who talk about it at all, seem pretty much as entrenched whichever way they voted. Being able to change your mind on something that's somewhat emotionally grounded is quite a rare skill.
I think my gripe was the leave parties had absolutely no ability to implement anything they were offering.
That required Boris to be anointed.
I think Farage ran away from the £350m bus pledge the first day.
But, it’s about benefits!
That must be good, right?
Ah, I think I see the issue now, benefits are bad, only scroungers get benefits. What you want are Brexit Breaks or Incentives.
dudeofdoom
I think my gripe was the leave parties had absolutely no ability to implement anything they were offering.
That required Boris to be anointed.
I think Farage ran away from the £350m bus pledge the first day.
Did he ever say it? I did hear him denounce it next day... but I don't remember him even claiming that?
Not that I believe his garbage either - but to me this just illustrates the fact there were 17 million (or whatever) ideas of what Brexit was and all different
Cougar
Benefits, then?
Benefits for whom?
Certainly many UK companies have better access to remote support contracts in developing countries .. that benefits them on paper at least. Obviously the UK staff that lost their jobs not so much.
For Richi, certainly helps his wife's wealth.
i have been into europe on a few occasions touring on the bike since we opted out. place like norway, holland, belgium and france make our pathetic country look almost 3rd world and underdeveloped .
To be fair it's been that different for the last decade or so, Brexit has just brought into even more focus.
and yes Brexit was a crock
IIRC polls are running at about 20% of people who say they voted Leave thinking Brexit has gone well, and only 60% of them who still think that Brexit will be beneficial in the longer term. That’s a lot of “buyers remorse” there. And it’s not their fault, they were asked to vote and their votes were taken as an instruction to jump without looking or any chance to reconsider or seek out compromise (both the big UK parties whipping against staying in the Single Market for example, when the majority of UK voters have always polled as preferring we stay in it).
reluctantjumper
To be fair it’s been that different for the last decade or so, Brexit has just brought into even more focus.
It's largely subjective... I lived in Norway and France long term and frequently visited Belgium and Holland
Each has merits and downsides.. I've heard several French medical doctors say the Norwegian health system is "developing nation standard"... and I've seen stubborn bigotry in Belgium in ways would make walking into a pub in Gwynedd in the 80's seem positively welcoming.
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
To be fair Ton, that's not uncommon. The Brexit Bus tipped the vote over the line.
Did he ever say it?
On TV the day after the referendum, if I recall correctly.
Benefits for whom?
That's rather the 350 million pound question, isn't it.
We love the NHS. Stick the NHS logo on the campaign material for a “simple” question about EU membership… job done. Then switch your money to think tanks and lobby groups campaigning against free at the point of use health care. Horrible mendacious lying about the referendum being a way to protect and improve the NHS was one of the worst things about the referendum campaigns, I remember many a discussion where “I’m voting for the NHS” came up as the trump card. Depressing. Strongly suspect many of those people are now in the approx 80% of leave voters who think Brexit is going badly… hard to point to the NHS and claim things are improving even if you honestly believed that Brexit would deliver that as a benefit of leaving the EU. Still… the doubling down with “40 new hospitals” showed that one side learned what works in campaigns (as long as you’re not overly bothered about any actual outcomes for the nation and its people).
A reminder that it carried on after “that vote” as well…
:format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/65363703/EFzEfL_UEAI96Bk.0.jpeg)
i think we a truly a broken country. and i mean in every way. our government, our hospitals, our justice system, our road and transport system. and it all bothers me.
Don’t beat yourself up too much. All this would still be true if we’d stayed in. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The problems in this country are almost all a direct result of the Tory govt (and to a lesser extent a spineless Labour Party) not our non-membership of the EU.
I remember many a discussion where “I’m voting for the NHS” came up as the trump card. Depressing.
Yep. I remember an exit interview on TV with an older woman, she said she voted leave because she didn't really understand but more money to the NHS had to be a good thing.
Don’t beat yourself up too much. All this would still be true if we’d stayed in. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Oh give it a rest for ****'s sake. We've been punched in the face and kicked in the bollocks and you're bleating on about how the punch in the face has absolutely nothing to do with the kick in the bollocks and and it's time to accept the kick and get on with it and why are we all so obsessed with bollocks anyway when we've been punched in the face.
It's pathetic, it really is, and most of the forum is seeing straight through it by now. You talk big about 'accepting things,' you need to start singing from your own hymn sheet.
It’s obvious to anyone with half a brain that while brexit isn’t solely responsible for the country’s problems, it has added to many of them significantly and will continue to do so indefinitely, until some politicians in either of the main two parties dare to admit this openly and start to work toward reversing the worst of its crippling effects.
The vote was one thing, the botched implementation was another entirely.
Oh give it a rest for ****’s sake.
Same back at you. Must be lovely to live in the fantasy that everything is shit because of stupid people who aren’t as clever as you but that’s all it is, a fantasy.
In the meantime millions are suffering at the hands of a transparently corrupt and cruel tory govt and all you lot do is whine about how you have to wait a bit longer in a passport queue.
Incidentally I was in a long passport queue yesterday. It was a bit inconvenient (20 mins waiting) but ultimately not a big deal And no one was moaning about it.
But for the benefit of people who aren't as clever as they'd like to think they are, once more with feeling:
Are all of Britain's problems due to brexit? No, and no-one actually believes this.
Was everyone who voted for brexit stupid? Of course not, and no-one really thinks this.
But are both of those contributory factors? Hell yes, and it's blindingly obvious.
Any further questions, or are you going to carry on making shit up to argue against?
Anyway.
Benefits, then?
(Why is this thread still open?)
We’ve had 11 pages of benefits Cougar, surely you can see that?
(repeat to fade)
Thanks for the reply Ton,
i dont seem to remember when exactly. i just hoped that there would be some changes for the good. and as of yet, i have not seen anything good happen from it at all.
i think we a truly a broken country. and i mean in every way. our government, our hospitals, our justice system, our road and transport system. and it all bothers me.
the one thing that doesnt seem to annoy or bother me is the immigration. i dont give a monkeys arse how many illegal or legal people come. good on em for wanting a better life.
I think I felt like that prior to the vote, and the results didn't improve my perceptions.
i just wish it was as easy for us british people to go the other way, but it appears we have truly **** ourselves up with that option now.
i have been into europe on a few occasions touring on the bike since we opted out. place like norway, holland, belgium and france make our pathetic country look almost 3rd world and underdeveloped .
It's arguably not just Brexit alone that has led to this, it's who we've allowed to govern us since. The politicians who campaigned for and "won" Brexit weren't necessarily the right people to then hand the country over to run and implement Brexit.
Perhaps if we're really searching for benefits, it might be that the whole sorry affair has prompted more of the electorate to challenge and question politicians claims and promises(?)
But that's been a very expensive lesson, and I don't know how many have really learned it...
All this would still be true if we’d stayed in.
Garbage, the yes vote enabled the Tory loons and led directly to our current state. Only you choose not to see it whilst you cling to the fantasy that if only we can get the right sort of UK government being free of Europe will allow us to implement inward looking protectionist polices and subsidies to propup uncompetitive UK business. Now thats fantasy.
the yes vote enabled the Tory loons
^ this, but also the sheer amount of time, money, and effort spent on implementing all the garbage and predictable outcomes when it could have been spent on other tjings. Not least, the NHS, in a bizarre twist.
(although I can also buy into 'thank **** they've been kept busy with Brexit because imagine what they'd have managed without that to occupy them')
Credit to Ton - my gripe isn't with people that were fooled, or wrong, or whatever. It's not even really with those that still genuinely believe it was the right decision, although I'd question how they come to that decision. It's with those that know they've been fooled, know they were sold a pup but refuse to admit it and now are determined to double down because to change your mind is somehow weak.
Are all of Britain’s problems due to brexit? No, and no-one actually believes this.
Yet that’s all you talk about. 🤷♂️
The problems in this country are a result of 40 years of neo-liberalism, not 3 years of being out of the EU. People are waking up to that fact (despite the denialism on this thread), so there’s some hope of positive change.
Anyway, you’ll be glad to know I‘m flouncing for now as I’m on holiday in Portugal at a French resort. It’s nice not being around brits with a chip on their shoulder, although they do have a weird penchant for dressing up.
PS I was talking to one of my French relatives last night and they spent the night telling me about all the problems with racism in France and how the trains are shit. Weird eh! 😀
I was against the EC in theory ('bosses' club' and all that) but in practice what motivated the Tories was more neoliberal deregulation and with a weakly organised labour market it was clear how damaging it was going to be so I voted remain. The degradation of the country under Tory rule was going on for years but brexit has made it worse. Politicians are now flagging up that 'we' can't afford the state pensions (which are about the lowest in Europe) and both major parties seem intent on more privatisation of the NHS. Ton's right, travelling in Europe makes you feel like you're coming from the 3W and a visit to Leclerc feels like a foody's paradise in comparison with M&S or Waitrose. However I don't think rejoining in itself will be a panacea and both major parties are singing from the same hymn sheet of 'growth' (trickle down) and 'difficult decisions' (austerity, privatisation) so it comes down to people fighting their own corner in the labour market, in communities and on the streets. It would be misplaced faith to imagine that parliamentary politicians will solve these issues for the majority and they have no intention of doing so, they are there to protect the system as it is at the cost of everyone else.
Yet that’s all you talk about. 🤷♂️
You're surprised that people discuss brexit on a thread discussing a brexit-related topic? It's literally in the subject.
(despite the denialism on this thread)
Despite the denialism in your head.
How are those benefits looking, have you come up with any yet?
You’re surprised that people discuss brexit on a thread discussing a brexit-related topic?
No I’m surprised how people here now blame brexit for just about everything that’s going on whether it’s the case or not. Thankfully this forum isn’t really representative of the real world. In the real world many people (especially leave voters) are now thinking that we’ve left the EU and everything is still shit so there must be something else going on.
I thought you were leaving? You can't even get a self-announced flounce straight.
In any case (again) there is no-one with half a brain who doesn't realise that there is "something else going on," the notion that everyone thinks that the entirety of Britain's ills is all down to brexit doesn't exist outside of your own head. Again (again again) this is a strawman argument, you've made it up because it suits your agenda. Without being able to rag on everyone else, your standpoint is a house of cards.
We're in a mess, yes, you're right. And there are many factors at play. Of which, Brexit is a large one. To blame everything on brexit is foolish and short-sighted I agree, but to deny that it's contributory at all is disingenuous at best.
Hate to break it to you Daz, but "I voted remain but..." ain't buttering any parsnips. It's in the same bucket as "I'm not racist but..." We see you. We all see you.
@dazh you still haven’t told me what I’m supposed to be making the best of. I’m all ears.
Still waiting for a list of those blatantly obvious future benefits he's already told us about, too.
In the real world many people (especially leave voters) are now thinking that we’ve left the EU and everything is
stilleven more shit...
FTFY
No I’m surprised how people here now blame brexit for just about everything that’s going on whether it’s the case or not.
We're not blaming Brexit for everything, it's the main factor on top of lots of other shitty factors. Without it having happened we would be in a much better position than we are now, still a crap one but better. I'm scared for the next few years as the rest of Europe gets on with recovering from everything that's happened in the last few years while we as a country are stifled by the effects of Brexit with no tangible benefits whatsoever. We're still on the downward slide whilst others are starting the rebuilding process that we cannot even consider starting until after the next election, provided that the current lot are removed from office which is definitely not a given despite the opinion polls.
@dazh you still haven’t told me what I’m supposed to be making the best of.
Think you’re mistaking me for someone who thinks brexit is a good thing.
you’ve made it up because it suits your agenda.
My only agenda is getting on with life. If you want to spend the rest of your days regretting what might have been carry on. It’s utterly pointless.
We’re still on the downward slide whilst others are starting the rebuilding process that we cannot even consider starting until after the next election
Absolutely right. Glad you acknowledge that it’s our useless current govt and that things could/should/will get better when we finally get rid of them.
I'm well aware of what your agenda is. You let it slip on the original brexit thread.
How are those brexit benefits looking, come up with any yet?
You're really bad at flouncing, aren't you. "I'm leaving. Hey, I'm leaving! LOOK AT ME I'M LEAVING!! Are you all deaf?! I'll keep posting until you pay me some attention!" The key feature of flouncing is to just **** off, because no-one cares.
My only agenda is getting on with life.
Except your not because all you do is talk about people talking about Brexit
If you want to spend the rest of your days regretting what might have been carry on. It’s utterly pointless.
I don't quite know what this means. Regretting something is an emotion, not something you actively do. I don't sit here regretting brexit instead of mowing the lawn, or doing dishes or something. We're all getting on with life, of course we are - what choice do we have?
If you're asking us to forget all about it - I don't think that's going to happen. It'll become part of history, and it will be discussed and analysed as such like Thatcher is now, or Suez or something.
Yet that’s all you talk about.
[ checks posters’ contributions to other threads ]
You’re bullshitting, and trolling, and obvious with it.
Think you’re mistaking me for someone who thinks brexit is a good thing.
No, I'm identifying you as someone has said that in the past. Since you can't identify a tangible benefit to this nonsense (which is what the actual question was) perhaps you can tell us how to make the best of it as you have so often done in the past.
things could/should/will get better
Heard that one before
Still as tangible now as it was then. Coulda shoulda woulda didn't work out in the end.
Its does amuse this desire from some on the left to forget about brexit. Its not over and done with - the most damaging parts are yet to come and no matter how much you wish it labour are going to have to account for their pusillanimous brexiteer position. Pretending its not happened doesn't make it go away. pretend you can "make brexit work" is a lie
Absolutely right. Glad you acknowledge that it’s our useless current govt and that things could/should/will get better when we finally get rid of them.
It's parts of this useless government and the ones before it since 2014 or so that enabled Brexit and made multiple other ****ups along the way, the two are inseparable. Until we get a government that acknowledged that mistakes have been made and we need to do whatever it takes to undo them (this includes Brexit, our immigration policy, our right to protest, the state of the NHS, the destruction of the whole public sector system in general and our right-wing press' hold over the electorate amongst lot sof other things).
Brexit and it's failure is everything right now. It is the ticket that got us the governments we have had for the last 6 years, the government that has screwed up our country during the pandemic, the government that has alienated us from most of Europe, that has soured our relationship with the US, that has debased society so far that it'll take multiple generations to fix.
Let me reiterate that: Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly. Until you understand this and stop pretending things are magically going to get better then there is no discussion to have with you.
I normally don't bite for trolls but this is such a fundamental issue for this country right now that I have to say the above. There is no way forward for us until we start undoing the damage that Brexit has done, that includes changing our ruling party amongst many other things but it is the core issue as the government has been elected on that basis. Ignoring that is stupid and dangerous.
"Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly. Until you understand this and stop pretending things are magically going to get better then there is no discussion to have with you."
I thought I had all bases covered but I'm adding narcissism for dummies to the starter pack.
Let me reiterate that: Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly. Until you understand this and stop pretending things are magically going to get better then there is no discussion to have with you.
Is true - there is a fundamental deceit we see from some of the leftists posters
1) pretending brexit is over and sorted
2) pretending that labor can make brexit work
3) pretending that labour will not be held to account for their brexiteers stance at the next GE
Brexit is core and central to our issues, pretending will not cure anything
I thought I had all bases covered but I’m adding narcissism for dummies to the starter pack.
There's no narcissism in there at all. To fix anything you have to understand the underlying issues. If the Brexit vote had gone the other way we would have stayed in, Cameron would not have resigned, the right wing of the Conservative Party would have been kept quiet for a few years (the vote was to shut them up, no-one thought they would actually win) and we would have been on a completely different trajectory as a country. To fix the country you have to go back to that point and identify the various stages where things went wrong and act accordingly to repair things, not undo them but change the course of decisions for the better. Once that has been actioned you can then start to build on better foundations, leaving things in a better state for future generations.
Still waiting for a list of those blatantly obvious future benefits he’s already told us about, too.
Glad I didn’t hold my breath; I’ve got nobody here who could resuscitate me…
Brexit is at the core of everything, directly and indirectly.
Hmm. I'll disagree. Brexit is a symptom of even deeper problems.
stop pretending things are magically going to get better
Things probably will get better - not magically, but eventually we will end up with better politicians than we have now. They won't be all the way good, we probably still won't be back in the EU for decades, but things will probably be better in many areas than they are now at some point in the not too distant future.
, but things will probably be better in many areas than they are now at some point in the not too distant future.
I admire your unfailing optimism. shame that neither labour nor the tories are actually suggesting anything to improve things.
What issues do we face that brexit is not central to?
Things probably will get better – not magically, but eventually we will end up with better politicians than we have now
Why, how? When was the 'golden era' of MPs and how would we get back to that now, i.e. not as much blatant lying/making stuff up, resigning when they have done wrong etc,. not in it for themselves quite as much, an electorate who actually care what the MPs is up to rather tea just voting for whatever MP represents the party they want in power.
While the main platform of both major parties is quite plainly built on a lie, it's inevitable that the only politicians we will get are those who are either thick as mince or quite happy to lie blatantly and pursue policies that they know to be extremely harmful to the country, in order to advance their careers. I know politicians have always tended to varnish the truth and say what they think people want to hear, but recent years have elevated this to an entirely different plane. Both tory and labour have quite openly and obviously purged those on the relatively sane wings of the party.
There are those who still like to believe that Starmer is a clever man playing the long game, but I don't buy it. Years spent in a bubble of invincible ignorance, repeatedly telling the same lies, can't pass without leaving a mark.
Brexit isn't an opportunity any more than a hole in the head is an opportunity to have some emergency surgery. If "making the best of it" means anything, it means fixing the problems to the fullest extent possible, as soon as possible. Which means minimising its injurious effects.
The vote was one thing, the botched implementation was another entirely.
Molly - you believe they've "botched" it? How quaint.
Let me take you back to my quote "Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle" - do you not understand yet what is going on?
There are those who still like to believe that Starmer is a clever man playing the long game, but I don’t buy it.
Disagree, he's playing the "long game" because he knows that only once they're in power can they do anything - remember under UK's First Past The Post system you only need a majority of 1 to be the 'dictator' for the next 5 years.
Oh, so what Machiavellian plot do you think he's planning with this majority of 1 then?
Lols.
Cougar
i fell for the 350 million to the nhs thing, hook line and sinker.
To be fair Ton, that’s not uncommon. The Brexit Bus tipped the vote over the line.
I still don't get the £350 million thing... this was a very easy to check non subjective fact and a very obvious lie rather than "promises" of trade deals or such.
I guess people believed curved bananas and stuff?
Did he ever say it?
On TV the day after the referendum, if I recall correctly.
My memory is he said "THEY shouldn't have said that". I don't think he actually said that BEFORE, I'm just saying as far as I know he just let it be said and said nothing until the day after.
Reluctantjumper
I’m scared for the next few years as the rest of Europe gets on with recovering from everything that’s happened in the last few years while we as a country are stifled by the effects of Brexit with no tangible benefits whatsoever.
One thing you can be sure of is when the EU moves to protect its members and improve the economic situation it will be classed as "punishing the UK for leaving".
do you not understand yet what is going on?
I do, I think, fairly well. If you want to see how the Tories botched it, look at the polls. Both Westminster intention and the rejoin/bad idea ones.
What issues do we face that brexit is not central to?
- A big competence deficit in politics
- Anti-intellectualism in society
- Poor quality public discourse, caused by social media and biased media outlets, related to the diminshing of the BBC
- Under-funding in education and the trashing of education as a desirable profession
- Under-funding everything including health
- Not having PR
- Regional inequality
When was the ‘golden era’ of MPs and how would we get back to that now,
I'm not saying there was ever a golden age. I'm saying that things are now significantly worse than the baseline level of shitness that we've experienced since WW2, and before long we will return to that baseline which would represent an improvement. It would not be a wonderful solution to our problems but we might start to fix a few of them, a bit.
NOne of those things are anywhere near as critical as brexit -
Stop trying to hide from brexit - I know its labour policy to hide and pretend its not happening but its stupid
the troies did not botch brexit - they got exactly what they wanted from it including the pusillanimous response from Labour which has totally let the tories of the hook for the blame
Brexit is 100% central to the vast majority of issues we face - from healthcare recruitment to destruction of industry and cannot be fixed without reversing brexit - this is the reality you and the labour party need to face
The Telegraph has a solution to Britains woes having had its favoured government in power for 12 years....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/17/under-50-time-jump-ship-leave-britain/
In fairness that approach was one followed by the owners of the telegraph a long time ago (although since Lloyds called in the loan not sure the Barclays are still the owners).
The brexiteer elite have always been fond of showing their patriotic love of the UK by living elsewhere.
If you’re under 50, it’s time to jump ship – get out of Britain while you can
The UK seems incapable of solving its own issues, and things are set to get worse
If our national policy was set by listening to the under 50, then the country would be in a better state for them. Brexit being only the most obvious example. And I say that as someone with only a few weeks to go before that excludes me. Of course, the ultimately irony about that Telegraph piece is that you now need to be far more wealthy to get out and into a whole load of countries than you did before... you know what.
My sister and her family and my mum and dad have all left the UK in the last year for Ireland as a direct result of Brexit. They seem utterly smitten with their decision. Broke my kid's hearts seeing their cousins and grandparents go.
I will never, ever, forgive the xenophobic halfwits who brought this on. That telegraph article totally riles me.
I still don’t get the £350 million thing… this was a very easy to check non subjective fact and a very obvious lie rather than “promises” of trade deals or such.
I guess people believed curved bananas and stuff?
You've just answered your own question. I'm increasingly of the mind that no-one fact-checks anything that they want to be true.
I've seen it first-hand on an anti-brexit Facebook group. They post some brexie lie about bendy bananas or whatever, fall over themselves to look up the truth with a side order of "gullible idiots, it's seconds' work to google." Then someone will post utter nonsense which agrees with the group narrative and no-one blinks, they just accept it. Both sides are as bad as each other.
Once someone has made up their mind about something, most people seek validation and blindly reject anything that might be in danger of challenging it. Folk believed the bus lie because why wouldn't they, it's on a bus. And the uncomfortable truth is as I said at the start, they wanted it to be true.
It’s going to be a very short thread!
lolz
NOne of those things are anywhere near as critical as brexit
I disagree. Many of them are the things that led to it. Brexit didn't fall out of the sky one afternoon, did it?
Stop trying to hide from brexit
You ****ing what?!
Am I not a vocal and persistent Brexit critic? Have I not excoriated it many times over the years? On this very thread a few pages back I explain why it is not something that can be moved on from.
Brexit is 100% central to the vast majority of issues we face – from healthcare recruitment to destruction of industry and cannot be fixed without reversing brexit
But why do we have Brexit? A seed needs fertile ground in which to grow. Brexit did not start in 2015.