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At the risk of being shouted at, i'm going to try + be impartial.
Some cheap EU labour was undermining UK salaries from the late 1990's. However, we were left with a huge labour shortage that wasn't being filled by African/Asian workers, domestic workers or new technology. So lots of retail/hospitality/factories/farms closed. A wasted opportunity.
It's difficult to assess the costs/benefits, though, as you have to compare the current position of the UK to an imaginary scenario where we are still in the EU, 4 years later. Would we still have high inflation, for example? Probably, yes.
For me, it's the lack of planning and consideration given to our long-term prospects which is the most frustrating. There was far too much emphasis on 'Getting Brext done' instead of 'Making Britain better'!
The private sector will always act in it's own interests. A classic example is the Freeport at Redcar - this will be a gold standard in corruption and misappropriation.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to restructure its railways, but that would require a competent government that actually wanted to achieve something rather than just put out press releases.
You can argue about the pros and cons of leaving, but you can’t really argue against giving people the power to make the decision. We need a lot more of it IMO.
Surely it's a warning of what will happen if you give people the power to make a decision, when they aren't provided with the information needed to make that decision, and aren't blessed with the skills to analyse that information even if they had it?
there’s a reason we’ve never been offered a referendum on bringing back capital punishment.
Capital punishment is a fringe issue. You wouldn't ask the population to vote on something that trivial. You might however get the population to vote on taxation levels, budgets, NHS, schools reform and other big stuff that directly affects them. Yes the brexit vote was poorly organised and a terribly implemented example of a referendum, which is why we need to do more of them to get them right. The tories won an election on the promise of a referendum on EU membership, then won another because the results of it weren't being implemented or could even be overturned. That shows they have a place in our legislative system, and an improvement on our corrupt and venal system of representative democracy.
Surely it’s a warning of what will happen if you give people the power to make a decision
If you want a functioning democracy you need to trust the people to make decisions. If you want good decisions you need to maximise opportunities for involving voters in them. You can't have it both ways. Either we believe in democracy or we don't, and with patronising comments such as this the remain/rejoin lobby sounds more and more anti-democratic. That's one of the (main) reasons people voted out, because of a perceived political establishment which wields power without accountability.
You might however get the population to vote on taxation levels, budgets, NHS, schools reform and other big stuff that directly affects them.
Then you'd have an absolute tyranny of the majority. How do you think, say, cyclists would fare if relevant issues were decided by a majority?
Sorry Dazh, I don’t think you’ve made the case. I’m going to disagree.
My life has changed and I'm a dual national. CRC closed my account which dated to back to when they first launched the site, it's easier to buy stuff from China than the UK and the border is an absolute random shit show pain in the butt. It's absolutely pointless booking any transport on the other side because you have no idea how long it's going to take to get through customs. The customs people seem to make life especially difficult for dual nationals and airport staff randomly refuse access to flights people have every right to be on (that's no longer a problem, I've given up flying). My last effort to leave the UK, we did catch the boat but I did begin to wonder:
"Do you have any proof you are British?" my national insurance number is ......... check. "A British passport?" I'm travelling on my French passport because it's a good idea to enter and leave a country on the same passport, besides my British one is out of date. "Driving license" - French. "Adresse?" - French, the one on this ID card is correct as is all the other information including place of birth, Birmingham, same as on my passport. "Wait there"
On junior's last trip he arrived over an hour early in St Pancras for Eurostar as advised and missed it. On the way in they wanted proof of where he was going to stay, since when did a Brit need proof of where he is going to spend the night in Britain?
I've dusted off my birth certificate, the English one before I was born again French, maybe that will help.
Rant to be continued.... 😉
So a personal benefit is that it's really made me appreciate how easy it is to get around Shengen.
The customs people seem to make life especially difficult for dual nationals and airport staff randomly refuse access to flights people have every right to be on
MrsJ is one of them dirty forriners like the majority decided we don't want. Last time around she was asked to show her UK residence card. Her what ????????
If you want a functioning democracy you need to trust the people to make decisions. If you want good decisions you need to maximise opportunities for involving voters in them. You can’t have it both ways.
A functioning democracy needs people to indicate preferences, not make decisions (that’s what governments are for - if the population makes the decision you just need a civil service not a government)
And the preferences should be preferred outcomes, not preferred mechanisms.
PS - I think you might find (with your time machine I’ve supplied) Brexit was more of a fringe issue than capital punishment in 2010ish.
Then you’d have an absolute tyranny of the majority. How do you think, say, cyclists would fare if relevant issues were decided by a majority?
You'd have checks and controls to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation. And do you really think we'd have referenda on cycling/roads policy?? Seriously that's clutching at straws and doesn't help your argument. Look, if you don't want more democracy then fine, but don't dress it up by pretending fringe issues would result in some sort of tyrannical mob rule. The flip side is also true though, don't then complain when corrupt representatives like tory MPs make stupid policy which harms you.
You’d have checks and controls to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation.
Like the checks and controls that were abscent from the brexit referendum?
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html
Wait a few years when even more people aren’t benefiting from capitalism, because they’ve no capital – and this “socialism”, that’s the very thing YOU benefited from with your free-at-point-of-use healthcare, education, law & order etc etc.
Except this isn't what this thread is about - is it? Spare your lectures on the benefits of socialism and start a new thread on the subject.
You’d have checks and controls to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation.
So it wouldn't actually be the people's choice, then, it would be modified by some non-democratic actors.
And do you really think we’d have referenda on cycling/roads policy?? Seriously that’s clutching at straws and doesn’t help your argument.
Err, no but I thought STW readers would be sensitive to the impact of what a majority believe, and that it would be a clear example around a shared concern.
Look, if you don’t want more democracy then fine, but don’t dress it up by pretending fringe issues would result in some sort of tyrannical mob rule.
And yet they have. That's exactly what this thread is about. A small problem of the Tories and UKIP has led to an ignorant majority messing everyone's life up.
And do you really think we’d have referenda on cycling/roads policy??
If you gave any group of folks the chance to dictate the local transport issues, I would happily wager your money it would not be safe and separated cycling infra, and that's precisely the sort of local and popular "more democracy" you're advocating.
Capital punishment is a fringe issue.
A decade ago so was leaving the EU. No one but no one saw it as the issue that should be a national referendum.
A functioning democracy needs people to indicate preferences, not make decisions (that’s what governments are for – if the population makes the decision you just need a civil service not a government)
Semantics. Expressing a preference is making a decision. The govt decides which outcomes are presented to the people on a particular issue, then enable a debate and a referendum to make the decision. I really don't see what's so controversial about that.
And the preferences should be preferred outcomes
Like being in the EU or out of it? If you're arguing that referenda should have simple to understand outcomes, the EU referendum was a good example.
And do you really think we’d have referenda on cycling/roads policy??
Are you paying attention to Rishi "culture warrior" Sunak and sundry other muppets in parliament? Of course we would and Sir Starmer would not be any better at not pandering to the nutters. (See panic about ULEZ for an example of flip-flop policy making).
some non-democratic actors
They're not undemocratic, the idea of a referendum is to get an idea of the majority view without oppressing the minority. Without losers consent the process is undemocratic no matter what the majority require and the danger is that revolution and heads on stakes becomes more likely.
Expressing a preference is making a decision
What? No it's not!
A decade ago so was leaving the EU. No one but no one saw it as the issue that should be a national referendum.
Don't be daft. EU membership was an issue which directly affected everyone in the country. Capital punishment affects a tiny few people who commit or are victims of murder. Clearly you wouldn't have a referendum on an issue that only impacts a negligible percentage of the population.
the EU referendum was a good example.
But it wasn't though was it. The Good Friday agreement was posted through the letterbox of every address on the Island pointing out what it meant, what it didn't mean, what structures would be in place and when that would happen. No one could've honestly said that they didn't know what it was they were voting for in 1998. The Brexit vote was the complete opposite of that process. If you're going to advocate for more democracy at least have a sensible idea of what that looks like, and if you think it was the EU vote in 2016, then I'm going to ignore you because you're not being serious.
The fact that politicians gave the people a choice on an issue as big as this goes against the popular view that politicians do what the hell they like and don’t listen to the voters.
Politicians (Tory politicians) gave the people the opportunity to vote on this as a means of getting shut of Farage and his ilk. I don't think for one moment it panned out exactly as they imagined it would.
Politicians (Tory politicians) gave the people the opportunity to vote on this as a means of getting shut of Farage and his ilk. I don’t think for one moment it panned out exactly as they imagined it would.
Worse. It didn't pan out as expected, but instead of trying to mitigate the effects on the innocent victims (the population) they swiftly re-oriented themselves and pursued whatever course they thought would benefit their personal interests.
Don’t be daft. EU membership was an issue which directly affected everyone in the country.
Please do find the 2013 articles for us all to read pointing out the affect leaving the EU would have and the importance of voting in a national referenda.
You know full well that it was called to try to finally resolve an internal Tory party conflict, to try to pretend otherwise makes you look unserious.
I believe that it’s a fairly established fact in political science that more democracy does not mean better democracy.
Hence you get the situation where MPs are held hostage by their local (often swivel eyed crazy) associations rather than representing their constituents.
The UK population both Tory and Labour had become used to the idea of referendums in the context of decisons on Europe, they'd already had one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum
In 2004 Blair yielded to pressure for a referendum on the European constitution (which I interpreted as Britain not being prepared to sign as I reckoned "no" would win and got on with protecting my interests). As it was referendums in France and the Netherlands scuppered the idea which was watered down to the Lisbon treaty and the promise of a referendum got forgotten.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/20/eu.politics6
But the idea of a referendum on Europe persisted - the foreign press barons dictating British public opinion and government policy weren't going to let it drop with both sides of the house having yielded to their pressure before.
The press barons knew they could win and Boris was their man.
You’d have checks and controls to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation
Such obstructions would be voted out
Capital punishment is a fringe issue
Ask the right questions and itd have majority support.
Bit late in the day but https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/
This is not correct. Under European law, the UK was permitted to act independently to approve the vaccine in an emergency.
The tax on Tampax was reduced from 5% to 0%, (whether it's been passed on thou may be a story for another day).
The imperial thing is also another thing you could do without leaving the E.U., as long as you had the metric on the packaging I dont think it ws illegal to have this.
Don’t be daft. EU membership was an issue which directly affected everyone in the country. Capital punishment affects a tiny few people who commit or are victims of murder. Clearly you wouldn’t have a referendum on an issue that only impacts a negligible percentage of the population.
what like ECHR membership?
youre arguing against yourself here Daz, EU membership barely registered on voters concerns, until it became a scapegoat for the governments own failures
brexit has shown us that anything can be weaponised in a culture war
brexit has also helped normalise the far right policies of this government, rwanda deportation scheme, prison hulks for immigrants .... these are policies we long thought we'd consigned to history
Capital punishment affects a tiny few people who commit or are victims of murder.
Or folk who didn’t commit whatever offences were deemed to be capital (we could all have a referendum on those too) but get hung anyway. The justice system is not in fallible after all.
Dazh, I know you mean well and all, but your arguments don’t hang together.
Leaving the the EU was a mechanism not an outcome. It sought to achieve something (admittedly different groups were sold it as a mechanism to achieve mutually exclusive outcomes) - it wasn’t an outcome in itself.
The outcomes associated might have been better jobs, fewer foreigners, higher environmental standards, faster deportation of disreputable types, more international trade, onshoring of manufacturing and so on and so forth. Ask people’s preferences on those by all means, but don’t use a referendum to ask them how to do it.
I think whatever replaces the CAP will be better.
Says the Brexiteer. Any idea what will replace the CAP, ctk. Be nice if you could explain how it will be better rather than just think it.
to try to pretend otherwise makes you look unserious.
Of course it was to fix an internal Tory problem. I’ve never claimed otherwise. That doesn’t mean the people voting in it didn’t take it seriously. The fact that the turnout was higher than any general election and the amount of campaigning was off the chart that shows the voters were wholly supportive of their opportunity to make a decision on something irregardless of why it happened.
Fan of the CAP edukator?
I’m looking at it from an EU point of view, Brucewee. Freedom of movement was at the heart of negotiations:
Yep,people who already lived outside of the U.K. were biggly shafted by the U.K. as this removed their rights to free movement which I think should have been protected.
Anyway I’m still unable to leave Spain,without voiding my residency application, haven’t seen family for 2+ years, my driving licence will not be recognised in the middle of the next month. I’m also not the only person to be in this position.
Without Brexit I wouldn’t be a legal, illegal alien 🙁
Seems good to me- an emphasis on the environment and sustainable farming.
CAP was/is a disgrace.
it wasn’t an outcome in itself.
Nonsense. The question on the ballot was do you want the UK to leave the EU or remain? A simple binary choice with a definite outcome. Everyone understood what this question means.
I agree with the objectives of the CAP which you'll find by googling just that and the good health of European agriculture demostrates its success.
Sure there are abuses and some failings as with any system, but on the whole I think European farming has benefitted from the CAP and the population is well fed at affordable prices as a result.
Fan of the CAP edukator?
Probably goes without saying seeing as he lives in France.
If you're a fan of roadside kidney cider then you're in luck round our way, there's a huge choice of bottles of truck drivers' piss to choose from thanks to Operation Brock. I call that a brexit benefit for the so inclined.
Likewise, if you enjoy filling in lots of bloody forms then Brexit is a huge bonus.
The only benefit I've seen is that my fanatically supporting Brexit colleague's have gone very quiet and probably feel remarkably stupid for getting so suckered in.......
That doesn’t mean the people voting in it didn’t take it seriously.
Would that be the same people who didn't even think of it as an issue to get worked up about until UKIP et al started frothing on about it?
The policy arguably goes beyond the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) in supporting wider land management improvement.
So the Welsh idea is to arguably go beyond the CAP in one aspect. That's a hell of an endorsement for the CAP. I wonder how it compares in all the other aspects of the CAP such as support for farmers, food standards, regulating pesticide, herbicide and fungiscide use, GM foods, pricing, food reserves, international aid... .
Prince Khalid Abdullah al Saud, who owns champion racehorse Frankel, has reportedly described his farming interest as a hobby. Juddmonte Farms, which he owns through an offshore holding company in Guernsey, received £406,826 in farm subsidies last year, of which £378,856 came from the single payment scheme.
CAP edukator. Poor people giving rich people money because they own land. If you are in favour of this crack on. I think we can do better.
...didn’t even think of it as an issue to get worked up about until UKIP et al started frothing on about it
By jove - we have a Brexit benefit
Nonsense. The question on the ballot was do you want the UK to leave the EU or remain? A simple binary choice with a definite outcome. Everyone understood what this question means.
Informed consent is usually accepted as requiring the person to understand the consequences of whatever it is they are consenting to.
Do you think anyone gave informed consent to Brexit?
Everyone understood what this question means.
I don't really see how you can type that with a straight face.
Nonsense. The question on the ballot was do you want the UK should leave the EU or remain? A simple binary choice with a definite outcome. Everyone understood what this question means.
I think you choose not to understand, for I have seen you argue fairly intelligently in the past.
Leaving the EU was not an outcome, it was a mechanism to achieve an outcome.
The question (which had some of the words you wrote) was to decide on a mechanism to achieve a “better life” whatever that might be defined as. The outcome desired was that better life. Now I agree a few folk, a negligible number, would have no concept of a better life than living outside the EU - so yes for them it was an outcome.
There was a question, some folk understood it (not all, trust me), there was a result and that was to leave the EU.
The actual outcome of the referendum, the things people care about, jobs, livelihoods, quality of life, we will find out in years and decades to come.
It doesn’t look good so far though, does it.
CAP edukator. Poor people giving rich people money because they own land. If you are in favour of this crack on. I think we can do better.
@ctk the new version of the CAP is quite different
ironically UK had quite a big input into the new version
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/common-agricultural-policy/cap-overview/cap-2023-27_en
active farmers: the new legislation contains a mandatory but flexible definition of an active farmer to be established by EU countries, including the level of activities undertaken. Only active farmers may receive certain EU support;
we'll probably end up with something less fair, if the government ever gets round to actually implementing anything
I'm sure our favourite farmer is rich too, in fact all land owners are rich so long as they don't have more debt than the land is worth. Policy applies to all and doesn't descriminate so King Charles used to get subsidies too in millions rather than hundeds of thousands, Dyson too. If you think a British system will be "fairer" I think you are deluded. So far the poorest British farmers are the been the ones hardest hit by leaving the CAP:
Read all the article before you reply, it'll save both of us time.
Yep nothing there that makes me think CAP isnt crap. Did you read it all?
I’m not a Brexiteer, and I don’t think it’s a good thing. But those people who are demonising Dyson for promoting Brexit are wrong.
The history of the European Commission colluding with Bosch to regulate against Dyson’s company, and their own reluctance to obey their own competition rules even when they’d been found against by their own court was a case of the European Union at it’s absolute worst. Dyson has every right to detest the European Union IMO.
My understanding is smaller farms didn't get much out of CAP and the UK was a net financial contributor. However, don't forget we had cheap farm labour and good access to EU buyers and sellers of produce, especially for smaller quantities.
Criticising CAP may be valid but the UK govt (except the Welsh Assembly) have made a poor attempt at replacing it so far.
Giving money to rich landowners who are already rich with no upper limit was and is a scam. But also there were ridiculous regs on what your land had to look like to be entitled to subsidies. Farmers were having to cut down trees to make their land qualify as farmable!
I did read it all, ctk, both when it first appeared and then "en diagonale" before linking. Things are rarely perfect and hopefully evolve towards something better through feedback. Junking everything you have and starting from scratch is rarely the best option, even Windows is pleasant to use and pretty reliable these days. Brexit as defined by the withdrawal agreement was junking gone too far except maybe for a rich arable farmer who holidays in Shetland and Northumberland.
Capital punishment affects a tiny few people who commit or are victims of murder
Another subject dazh knows FA about it seems.
I’m not a Brexiteer, and I don’t think it’s a good thing. But those people who are demonising Dyson for promoting Brexit are wrong.
The history of the European Commission colluding with Bosch to regulate against Dyson’s company, and their own reluctance to obey their own competition rules even when they’d been found against by their own court was a case of the European Union at it’s absolute worst. Dyson has every right to detest the European Union IMO.
German MEP's and representatives went in to bat for German companies, British MEP's were disruptors and couldn't be arsed representing British interests. A lot of voters thought sticking two fingers up to "brussels" as represented by Farage et al was fun. It would have been better if they had actually fought for our interests rather than just going on the piss.
Dyson should have blamed the way the British body politic engaged with Europe, instead he threw a hissy fit against the wrong people.
A lot of voters thought sticking two fingers up to “brussels” as represented by Farage et al was fun.
The irony being farage banging on about how the uk fishing industy was being shafted by the EU.
Nigel Farage sailed a boat down the Thames yesterday in an attempt to highlight the plight of British fishermen, conveniently forgetting that he did nothing to protect the industry while on the EU fisheries committee.
“over the three years that Nigel Farage was a member of the European Parliament Fisheries Committee, he attended one out of 42 meetings”.
Dyson should have blamed the way the British body politic engaged with Europe, instead he threw a hissy fit against the wrong people.
I believe that even the European Court Of Justice ruled that the European Commission had acted illegally against Dyson, but you may know more about the case than me?
Isn't stopping the jurisdiction of the ECJ one of the brexiteer froth points? hahah!
An excellent example for why the political system should not be allowed to interfere with the judiciary.
Conversley we had UK tabloids running headlines like 'traitors of the people' in reference to the UK supreme court.
What a ****ing waste of electrons this thread is.
So anyway, back on topic, can anyone name any benefits of leaving the EU?
No. None. /
What a **** waste of electrons this thread is.
Oh, I don't know, sometimes a lack of justification can be just as telling as justification, assuming there is any actual justification.
Dyson needs to get into making loud hailers - as he needs a really big powerful one to send his anti-EU spiels to the UK all the way from his company's HQ that the hypocritical deceitful #£#%#& moved to Singapore. Whilst the products are made in China.
This is NOT a British manufacturer. It hasn't been for a decade or two. It just uses a union jack to deceive.
Me ? I have Bosch products and (mostly) made in Europe where there is still a level of democracy, unlike where Dyson bases itself and gets its stuff made.
"So anyway, back on topic, can anyone name any benefits of leaving the EU?"
Yes. About £250k of British money in the coffers of the Danish Government's accreditation service, to get the Co I worked for accreditation in the EU to be able to carry on doing what it did before brexit. With a further 50-100k cost each year too to keep it.
Great benefit to Danes.
“So anyway, back on topic, can anyone name any benefits of leaving the EU?”
Yes. About £250k of British money in the coffers of the Danish Government’s accreditation service, to get the Co I worked for accreditation in the EU to be able to carry on doing what it did before brexit. With a further 50-100k cost each year too to keep it.
Great benefit to Danes.
When my old man died at the start of Covid, he left me his place in Spain. I rent it out as a holliday home so thanks to brexit, I have the joy of paying 24% tax, rather than 19% tax+offsets & deductables which are allowed to EU citizens, but not Brexitland.
I can't even offset my agents 15% commision, so I'm circa 40% down on any rental income before I even start.
So, we have two first hand brexit benefits so far, but the benefits are for the danish and spanish governments/tax payers.
Any more?
I can’t even offset my agents 15% commision, so I’m circa 40% down on any rental income before I even start.
My heart is bleeding. Such a tragedy that you can’t avoid tax on your unearned income 😕
You’re right though, perhaps that is a benefit.
My heart is bleeding. Such a tragedy that you can’t avoid tax on your unearned income 😕
You’re right though, perhaps that is a benefit.
It's not an income, I'm just about breaking even, I'm actually about €2000 in the red at the moment as I had to do some house repairs.
Come on then, captain Brexit, other than apparently taking delight in other peoples annoyances, what has brexit done for you? Seriously. Give me one reason.
It’s not an income, I’m just about breaking even
Income is still income whether you’re making a profit or not. Sounds like you need to sell up.
Come on then, captain Brexit
Sigh. I’m not pro-brexit. I’d probably vote to rejoin tomorrow given the chance. But that’s like wishing for a revolution. It’s not going to happen, and in the meantime there are far more important things to worry about.
So you can't think of even one single benefit from brexit then?
Just one thing...
... Anything, it doesn't need to be a big thing, just something you think might be a benefit to you or any othe UK citizen post brexit...
I'm still listening but your lack of reasoning is quite deafening.
I’ve already said numerous posts ago what I think the benefits could be. Maybe go back and read them?
This thread isn't about what the benefits could be... that's just fantasy red bus speak. It's about if there actually are any benefits.
Give me something tangible, anything, I don't care how small it is, give me something. Some sort of reason, if you have one, just one thing.
I'm all ears.
Dyson needs to get into making loud hailers – as he needs a really big powerful one to send his anti-EU spiels to the UK all the way from his company’s HQ that the hypocritical deceitful #£#%#& moved to Singapore. Whilst the products are made in China.
This is NOT a British manufacturer. It hasn’t been for a decade or two. It just uses a union jack to deceive.
Dyson still has his research and development centre in this country, in fact it’s about eight miles from me. He tried to expand his factory in Malmesbury, but the council refused to give him permission, so he moved it out of the U.K., where manufacturing costs were lower, like many British companies have.
He also had plans to turn the old Stothart and Pitt buildings in Bath into an international industrial design and development university, and Bath council refused to give permission, due to flood concerns. The fact that around the same time other developments were taking place all along the river, including a large shopping redevelopment which involved digging a hole about fifteen meters deep for an underground car park less than 100 metres from the river shows how much concern the council had for flood risk, when Dyson’s project was entirely above the river wall, with offices and other buildings literally right next to it. His technology centre is on the old Hullavington airfield, not far from the M4, where he was doing development work on an electric car, which was abandoned due to the vast cost involved.
He may have a factory in the UK, and allegedly be UK domiciled as an individual (heh)....but...
Dyson Limited, doing business as Dyson, is a Singapore-based multinational technology company.
Plus his vacuum cleaners are crap value for money, compared to hoover and Shark. He's just another shyster.
The only benefit I’ve seen is that my fanatically supporting Brexit colleague’s have gone very quiet and probably feel remarkably stupid for getting so suckered in…….
They were lied to, and in truth they probably wanted to be lied to. They had their reasons.
Which always reminds me of this little speech.
When you look at the brexit party, ukip, leave means leave etc etc the same faces come up. mega rich businessmen. It would be naive to think that these mega rich hedge fund managers and business people who are conservative party donors, are truly saints and have the interests of the poor downtrodden working class as their primary reasons.