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Perhaps the remain side should have made a stronger case at the time?
or that leave shouldn’t have told a pack of lies? And should be treated accordingly
Still waiting for a Brexiteer to list a tangible benefit. Could be a long wait................................................
potential doing a lot of work there
Hence my last point. The benefits of brexit are almost all dependent on what government we have and what policies they are prepared to implement. Now that we are out of the EU we can do a lot of stuff that we couldn't do before, but it needs a govt with the will to do it, and that motivation will only materialise if the voters understand that it's our govt that needs to do these things rather than someone else. At the very least different things are possible now when before they weren't.
Well i suppose there could be a reversion back to imperial measurements. £ and shillings, groats.
dazhFull Member
The potential future benefits are pretty obvious for anyone with an open mind
Go on then, we're all ears, it's all in the thread title. You voted remain, Dazh, you said you would, and even if you got some stick for being a Brexit apologist and Lexiter after the vote you knew what was best for Britain back in 2016.
Beyond becoming even more of a financial rogue state and the social/environmental dumping possibilities I really can't see any obvious advantages however open my mind.
High wage rises might just have something to do with runaway inflation, I doubt they are record rises given the inflation driven (and driving) rises in the 70s and 80s.
Leaving the EU as a benefit of voting to leave the EU is; in of itself an article of faith to some folks, it just is. It doesn’t need explanation or inspection.
Agree. If you hate the EU for whatever reason then leaving the EU is enough. Don't look into the ill effects of leaving and just carry on regardless in your own little "I left the EU so I am happy about it" world.
But when you take into account inflation we are markedly poorer. The wage growth is fuelled by inflationary pressures, not a good thing at all.
Totally.
The UK is in quite a dangerous spiral when it comes to the value of the £ out there in the real world. Obviously there are inflationary pressures everywhere - availability of basics will go down due to population growth, shocks like Ukraine, raw materials being held by rogue states etc.
But actively choosing to be a PITA to deal with for our neighbours and allies seems doubly stupid given the backdrop.
"The EU has inflation too".
Er OK, but we are exposed to the same external pressures - probably to a greater extent AND we have opted to add friction to trade with our nearest neighbours.
But this doesn't really answer the OPs request. Shutting the thread with a last comment of "sorry, couldn't think of any" with a link to a blank Word document would be the ideal, I think.
One of the big benefits that Moggy et al forgot to share was the current immigration problem and loosing the ability to return migrants to the EU.
Brexit apologist and Lexiter
You'll be calling me a nazi sympathiser next. Grow up FFS.
what was best for Britain back in 2016.
What was best in 2016 is very different to what is best today. No doubt everyone on here thinks rejoining the EU would automatically solve our problems, but the fact that we still have many of those problems after leaving shows that rejoining would make very little difference, whilst at the same time cutting off the opportunity to change things.
For reference I personally would prefer to still be a part of the EU.
However, atop a hill in rural France in June the speed limit was exceeded by me and a camera in a rock flashed at me. Apparently driver details can no longer be shared. I repent my sins and ask for your forgiveness. This is my one and only * benefit* so far, others may well say I should have been punished.
You’ll be calling me a nazi sympathiser next. Grow up FFS.
I would ask what you'd prefer to be called but no doubt you would say, 'a realist' or 'a very smart person'.
But if Brexit apologist or Lexiter has become an insult, what is the non-triggering term for someone such as yourself who accepts that the vote happened and feels remaining out of the EU is the only viable course for the UK?
Pros: Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Cons: I now know that the majority of my close family are racists.
I can think of two:
1. The Cameron UK government’s EU “reforms” didn’t happen when the UK chose to leave instead. I told remain canvassers at the time that I was sufficiently opposed as an EU citizen to consider voting leave on principle.
2. We can no longer return asylum seekers to the first EU country they entered. The UK now has to face its responsibilities to some degree, though it still hides behind Le Touquet by placing passport control on French soil and forcing refugees into boats.
or that leave shouldn’t have told a pack of lies? And should be treated accordingly
Given that the clever ones are still counting their winnings and laughing at the people they conned, what treatment can be imposed?
Or are we talking about the true believers amongst the politicians? I wouldn't worry about them - they are already rightly ridiculed at every turn - that ridicule is appreciated by those who are able to see it for what it is. Their dwindling followers? What's the point? If someone still thinks Brexit is a good idea they are a lost cause.
But it still is not answering the original question. Which cannot be answered in any tangible way by anything other than there aren't any.
I would ask what you’d prefer to be called but no doubt you would say, ‘a realist’
Well on the subject of EU membership, realist is exactly what I am. What makes more sense, trying to focus on stuff that is possible, or mourning what is already lost and fantasising about stuff that will never happen?
Move on FFS. Stop obsessing about what 'brexit' benefits exist/don't exist and start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
As a German resident, I got an absolute bargain when I bought a Cotic bike just after the referendum. The GBP had plummeted, Cotic and the German agent didn't touch their prices (I assume just for those frames that were being made in Taiwan and had already been paid at pre referendum price?)
The combination of brexshit and trump which was all sort of around the same time, was very helpful in purging so-called friends from my friend list. And I mean that IRL, not just on the book of farce / ****ter/X etc. The one I skied with many times, who told me I had to change my political opinions was the first to go. Told him to F off, and to make sure he changes his opinions to that of the next government each time they change, and have never spoken to him ever since. Good riddance, He's not the only one permanently removed from my life. There were several other annoying acquaintances that used to cling on like a turd stuck to your butt-beard, and brexshit/trump was the perfect event to wipe them away for good.
Building a closer relationship with the UK is entirely possible, what's getting in the way are the "red lines" shared by Sunak and Starmer, mainly no freedom of movement.
And let's face it, the end of freedom of movement is what's behind most of the cons on this thread.
Edit:
start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
We really are all ears, Dazh. You are among the most prolific contributors to political threads and have so far come up with nothing.
accepts that the vote happened and feels remaining out of the EU is the only viable course for the UK?
The second part of this sentence doesn't necessarily follow on from the first. Like @dazh, I accept that we have left the EU, and we'd better make the most of however that looks. If offered a vote on another referendum, I would vote to re-join (I voted remain). I think leaving the EU has exposed Tory (and Labour ) lies, and will hold them more accountable in the future, and that can only be a good thing.
Move on FFS. Stop obsessing about what ‘brexit’ benefits exist/don’t exist and start worrying about what UK benefits are possible.
these possible benefits, are they in the room with you now? 😉
if you could list them, that'd be great
I imagine we'll end up with single market membership within the decade, whether we will ever fully rejoin I dont know
because the public are getting very weary of being told the sunlit uplands are just around the corner
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1691408383243329536
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1691048660107137025
I imagine we’ll end up with single market membership within the decade
I think so as well, plus some limited agreements to allow easier travel for at (the very) least tourism.
Well on the subject of EU membership, realist is exactly what I am.
OK. and just so we're clear, are there any differences between a realist and a Brexit apologist? Since, as you say, Brexit has happened and it's time to move on, how is that not accepting and arguing for the UK's continued Brexit status?
Building a closer relationship with the UK is entirely possible, what’s getting in the way are the “red lines” shared by Sunak and Starmer, mainly no freedom of movement.
Careful, that's dangerously close to saying that continuing with Brexit is primarily being driven by xenophobia.
If offered a vote on another referendum, I would vote to re-join (I voted remain).
Sorry, I'm struggling to get my head around the fact some people would vote to re-join but they don't want to be given the opportunity to do so.
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
The NHS is all but destroyed to the point it feels almost dangerous to rely on it. Social Services also seems to be failing given the number of shocking cases in the news. Forget about even trying to find a dentist! There is almost no policing. Public infrastructure and services all seem to be run down, roads full of potholes, train strikes, parks and public spaces badly have no maintenance. They've filled in all the kids sandpits round here due to lack of money. Energy and water companies underinvest whilst making huge profits and nobody seems to do anything about it. (How many billions do we owe to water companies??) Cost of everything has gone through the roof. There also seem to be just open corruption, especially with all that PPE stuff. It's completely depressing.
It's surely going to be a long long time if this is ever fixed.
The right wing press will blame Labour when they get in and we'll be back to Tory again soon enough.
Most of the media seem to just distract everyone with people in boats, or transphobia or whatever other minority is the target this week.
How difficult is it to move to the EU now?? Seriously thinking of moving abroad.
but they don’t want to be given the opportunity to do so.
How have you inferred that's the case?
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
This has more to do with the Tories being in power for a decade than leaving the EU.
I'm looking at it from an EU point of view, Brucewee. Freedom of movement was at the heart of negotiations:
The NHS is all but destroyed
It is struggling for sure, but the people working there remain amazing. After a recent dog bite, I took my wife in to our local A&E, she was well looked after and stitched up within 2.5 hours despite us visiting after 11 on a Saturday night.
Whilst I would love to rejoin I dont think its likely for the simple reason we would not be able to rejoin on the same terms as those we had as members when we left. 3 I would imagine would be different are
1. We would loose the rebate we had
2. We would have to join the Euro
3. We would have to join Schengen.
Whilst I would be all for rejoining on those terms it would be interesting to see how polls would look if they were the terms put to the public
If you ask me this whole country has gone to aboslute shit.
You finally recognise the problem. This was happening long before we even thought of leaving the EU. It was happening before the tories entered govt in 2010, and before labout entered govt in 1997. Labour arrested the slide a bit, then Cameron and Osborne turbo-charged it, but it had bugger all to do with being in the EU. At least now people are beginning to realise that.
How have you inferred that’s the case?
Because you can't, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened and moving on while, on the other hand, being in favour of going back and revisiting the question of whether the UK should be in the EU or not.
You can't move on and go back at the same time.
Whilst I would be all for rejoining on those terms it would be interesting to see how polls would look if they were the terms put to the public
Joining the Euro would be a ridiculously stupid and self-destructive thing to do. I'd be fine with Schengen, free movement is no problem as long as we have sufficient minimum wage and worker protections. I don't mind paying whatever it costs either, but joining the euro would be economic suicide.
The only brexit benefit seems to be an entirely imaginary “we can now have really great trade deals and all the best laws imaginable now that we have Taken Back Control”.
Without any thought as to how practicable and plausible this scenario is nor how far from the reality of how it’s actually turned out.
Because you can’t, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened
The vote has happened, That's a fact. it does not necessarily follow that I support it, or that I am in favour of it. We are where we are. More people voted out than remain, that's democracy it's that simple
on the other hand, being in favour of going back and revisiting the question of whether the UK should be in the EU or not.
It's clear that more and more folks are realising what they've lost, and in my opinion the likelihood is; a slow reversal of the current position back to either another referendum that is laid out with more definition than Call me Dave could devise, or (more likely) a parliamentary vote.
The real benefit of leaving was avoiding EU anti tax avoidance legislation. The problem with that is only a tiny, but influential, proportion of the population benefited from that
There were loads of threads on here pre Brexit where people were singing its praises.
If only we could look at forum history
Every time I see one of those polls about record levels of rejoin sentiment I am still wowed by only one thing. That (depending on how you look at it) somewhere between 2 and 4 of every ten people you might see in the street don't want to rejoin. Given everything that has gone on, that is incredible and depressing.
Anyhow - tangible benefits of Brexit (without changing the entire national and international backdrop), please...
We would have to join the Euro
No we wouldn't. In fact we probably can't. Either way it's not a requirement on joining
We would have to join Schengen.
See above.
We would loose our rebate, that I agree with you on,
I’ve just finished reading “Johnson At Number 10” and it’s been eye opening to say the least.
Brexit was allowed to be all things to all people because, basically, to those who were proposing it, it was seen as a panacea, with none of them particularly interested in defining how, exactly, it would work, because it wasn’t in their interests to do so.
Some of the absolute true believers such as Rees-Mogg are borderline delusional in their thinking. They see it as an existential battle for England, that will start to benefit us in fifty years. Basically they think that they will be seen as their legacy as great English (mostly) men similar to those who ushered in the American Age of Enlightenment.
Grandiose fantasies of (very) mediocre men.
Because you can’t, on the one hand, be in favour of accepting the vote happened and moving on
I presume you're in agreement with US republicans who won't accept that Trump lost the election? Where does this anti-democratic position end? Presumably you have no problem with authoritarian fascism as long as the govt of the day does stuff you agree with?
You can’t move on and go back at the same time.
We have to move on. We'll probably be going back to a closer relationship in future. Both can be true.
I don’t mind paying whatever it costs either, but joining the euro would be economic suicide.
Calm down there. It's unlikely to happen, the chance of the French and Germans at any point in the future being happy to share a currency with us after the mess of the last 15 years, even if "we" wanted that to happen, is so slim as to be ignored... but if somehow it did it wouldn't be "suicide".
But none of this is in the "Brexit benefits" list.
that’s democracy it’s that simple
Yes, and there are many laws around voting to ensure it is fair and the result reflects the decision of an informed electorate. Voting without adhering to these laws is not democracy.
Which brings us back to the advisory referendum...
As an aside, all the Brits I knew in France are still here 6 years on . All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent. Two of the three are going through the formalities and will no doubt be successful. The reamining one's wife successfully applied for French nationality but he didn't even apply for reasons unknown - but he's very British.
On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France. Both hotel workers on the south coast, one a chef.
Government stats back up these anecdotal observations but I've failed to find numbers for those obtaining nationality as oposed to being on the other side of the Channel with residency.
I agree with Kelvin. Any economic suicide has already happened since Brexit so its hard to see how it could be any worse
Which brings us back to the advisory referendum…
You'll need to get behind me in the long line of folks waiting to give Cameron a shoeing I'm afraid.
All but three now have French nationality thus assuring the French economy benefits from their talent.
Anecdotes... everyone I know from home now living in an EU country has either pushed for citizenship or is working on it. Being a Brit abroad has changed for many people. That's a Brexit benefit perhaps, for them and their chosen homes.
On the other hand the two people I knew working in the UK gave up and returned to France.
To my surprise; most of the European* clinicians (mostly dentists) I recruited, some waaay back in 2015, are nearly all still here, something like 18 out of 20.
*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian...from all over.
somewhere between 2 and 4 of every ten people you might see in the street don’t want to rejoin. Given everything that has gone on, that is incredible and depressing.
It's neither incredible or depressing. For reasons I've already explained, the one thing leaving the EU has achieved is exposing the lie that our membership of it was the source of many of the problems we have. Knowing that why would anyone be that bothered about rejoining when there are much bigger fish to fry? Ask those 20-40% of people whether we should rejoin they'd almost certainly tell you we should sort out the NHS first, along with Social Care, Schools, energy prices, lack of affordable housing and many other things which directly affect them. The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it's little wonder that these people don't agree with you.
*Polish, Spanish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Estonian…from all over.
When you see them, thank them.
The fact that you prioritise rejoining the EU exposes your (relative) lack of concern for these other things, so it’s little wonder that these people don’t agree with you.
You can be concerned about all those things and consider closer links to our neighbours as part of the solution to them, rather than something abstract and unconnected from them.
That Irish data is questionnable. A cursory look at average net incomes are UK £596pw and Ireland £602. Many businesses are 'based' in Ireland for tax reasons and benefits do not accrue to locals. There are downsides like paying to visit the GP etc which get overlooked.
If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn't Starmer getting in front of that crowd?
It would perhaps be interesting having a roll call thread for STW members who have obtained nationality of an EU country they are resident of or have family links to. 10-20 I'd guess.
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he's a Brexiteer who hadn't appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.
Edit: Starmer can afford a golden passport, he doesn't feeel concerned, and he's too rich to care about anyone else IMO 🙁
If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?
Because it depends where that crowd live doesn't it? I'd wager that the most pro-remain/re-join areas are nearly all large metropolitan areas, and traditionally labour voting whereas most of seats Labour need to win are in "no-longer voting Labour" or "never voted Labour" leave areas.
Rejoining isn’t a viable option. The EU wouldn’t want us back at the moment, and there are far more urgent problems to solve.
The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal.
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.
I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven't changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.
The EU might not want the UK back as a full member but has repeatedly offered a Norway type deal
Have they?
dazh
Full Member
I can only think of one EU national living in the UK under withdrawal agreement terms on STW and he’s a Brexiteer who hadn’t appplied for UK nationality the last time asked and has since been evasive.I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven’t changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.
I’m a Brit living in Finland and most likely know many more EU nationals than you with a different experience, and also Brits being forced to leave Finland or being denied residency status post Brexit.
Have they?
Not as far as I've seen, but @Edukator may have different info. It would have to be a singular deal for the UK though, as last I did read about it, 1. the current members of EFA weren't keen on having an economy the size of the UK joining their wee club that suits them all just fine thanks, and 2. The rabid Brexiteers would never stand for it, the Norway option was always a lie, they didn't want it back when it was on the table and they sure as shit don't want it now.
I know a few EU nationals living and working in the UK and their lives haven’t changed. The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.
My life hasn't changed either.
But then I left the UK pre-Brexit and haven't tried moving anywhere since. Do you think I might have a different experience moving to another EU country now?
Or is that just Project Fear?
andytherocketeer
There were several other annoying acquaintances that used to cling on like a turd stuck to your butt-beard, and brexshit/trump was the perfect event to wipe them away for good.
quote of the day right here, chapeau (chapoo?)
If a majority in the UK wish to rejoin, why isn’t Starmer getting in front of that crowd?
Because the ensuing shit-show would ruin politics for another decade or more and cause even more of a breakdown of politics than we have. We need to get politics and government functioning again before we can even start.
Die thread die, why won't you ****ing die 😠
Previously I needed a trailer license to tow a decent trailer behind my van dispute having a licence to drive 20ton HGV. Now I don't.
It's nice, but not as nice as being able to work abroad.
I'm having trouble finding the articles I want because Norway-Uk trade deal dominates Google results. The most recent EU offer I could think of that key words produced what I was looking for was the offer of a Swiss type deal:
The EU’s Brexit negotiator, Maroš Šefčovič, offered a Swiss-style trading agreement last June but it was rejected by Frost. The move is reportedly being considered by some in government, particularly while Sunak seeks to avoid a trade war with the EU and strike a deal on the Northern Ireland protocol.
As Barnier has consistently pointed out a better deal depends on Britain dropping its red lines and accepting the EU's terms.
Bit of a tenuous one this.
Like it or not Brexit showed that the democratic process worked. More people voted leave than stay, so we left.
That ignores the fact that lots of people who voted leave believed the leave campaigns BS about the benefits and lots of people didn't vote one way or the other.
So the other two benefits are hopefully that more people are inclined to vote in future and we're all even more disinclined to believe politicians.
But I am clutching at straws here 🙁
Scottish / Welsh / Yorkshire independence anyone ?
Or that referendums will require 50% of voters rather than just 50% of voters who vote. And that everyone body gets a vote because voter supression is a real thing.
Now that we are out of the EU we can do a lot of stuff that we couldn’t do before
Such as?
You finally recognise the problem... ... but it had bugger all to do with being in the EU.
I agree with you on this. Our current state is due to the Tory governments we have had for the past decade or so. Without them there would have been no Brexit and with out Brexit there would have been no Tory government beyond 2016, propped up as it was by flag waving nationalists. Let's hope the electorate see sense at the next election and get rid of this shower of shit before Scottish devolution plunges us into an even further right little England.
Like it or not Brexit showed that the democratic process worked
For a referendum but not how it works for a general election.
But I am clutching at straws here
Not really. The fact that politicians gave the people a choice on an issue as big as this goes against the popular view that politicians do what the hell they like and don't listen to the voters. On this occasion, the people were given the decision and they decided. You can argue about the pros and cons of leaving, but you can't really argue against giving people the power to make the decision. We need a lot more of it IMO.
But that's where the devolution of decision making powers ended*. At no point since has any decision on what Brexit actually should mean been made with reference to what the population as a whole want, only what a small proportion of them want.
[* of course that devolution never actually happened, it was all advisory and decision making powers stayed with government and parliament, but hey, let's pretend it did happen ]
As Barnier has consistently pointed out a better deal depends on Britain dropping its red lines and accepting the EU’s terms.
Exactly. And those red lines have never been voted on, and are not based on the wishes of the UK population. Only a minority in the UK has ever wanted to be outside the single market, or to do away with freedom of movement. None of this shows that our democracy is functioning well in the UK, only that it can be played and abused.
You can argue about the pros and cons of leaving, but you can’t really argue against giving people the power to make the decision.
Nonsense. Of course you can.
In fact the vast majority of stable democracy depends on some sort of qualified democracy - whether that’s FPTP, a qualified proportional representation (its always qualified in some way) or similar.
I am trying to think of a good example of successful direct democracy - probably because asking people the outcomes they’d like is generally sensible, but asking them to chose right the mechanism to achieve those outcomes less so.
When we do we get the mess we’re in delivering none of the outcomes any of the voters actually said they wanted.
Que rampant post-rationalisation.
Direct democracy requires constantly going back to the populous with refined and qualified questions to work out exactly what to do. One referendum a decade is not direct democracy in any meaningful way.
When we do we get the mess we’re in delivering none of the outcomes any of the voters actually said they wanted.
Well put.
On this occasion, the people were given the decision and they decided
With none of the checks and balances that an official referendum would have, like the leave campaign being allowed to tell a pack of lies and present several versions of what brexit might be.
So basically we had remain or about 7 different brexit varients... on what planet is that a level playingfield?
A threshold of 50% is also frankly crazy for such a fundamantal change given the above.
The fear of what leaving the EU would result in and the reality are very different. Almost like project fear was exactly that.
Can anyone actually remember what project fear was?
As I recall it was the Brexy claim that the remain advocates were trying to scare you with the benefits of remaining in the EU.
That about right?
It certainly seems to have been rewritten many times to claim remain folk said things they never did.
And amazingly some folk actually believe this Brexiteer nonsense.
4 pages in and there clearly are none, except towing trailers possibly.
Mods, can you close this thread now please.
We need a lot more of it IMO.
Hmmm. there's a reason we've never been offered a referendum on bringing back capital punishment. Besides which the Brexit referendum was by far and away the worst version that we could've been offered. It didn't even define what leaving meant, it didn't offer qualification, didn't say what would happen after the vote, no EU national living in the UK was allowed to vote, but British folks living in Australia and New Zealand somehow were?
We need to do much better if were going to ask the public for any more of their opinions.
…and so another thread has descended into a socialist rebuke of capitalism. People of the left and right detest what Brexit has done to this country.
Wait a few years when even more people aren't benefiting from capitalism, because they've no capital - and this "socialism", that's the very thing YOU benefited from with your free-at-point-of-use healthcare, education, law & order etc etc.