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On so many levels the decision to hold the referendum in the first place was a monumentally wilfully stupid idea, so politicians doing nothing right now about the fact that a [depending on who you ask] larger constituency want back in that voted to come out eight years ago is hardly a low point in a history of unaccountability.
Absolutely.
Given that the vast majority want
Again, unless you've got stats to back this up and I haven't checked for a while now, the phrase you're looking for here is "small majority." Which is the problem.
Its going to be a complete shitshow.
As much as it pains me to say it, "good."
It will have to be. The "we won you lost" mentality will only end when the winners realise that we all win or lose together. This country needs a healthy dose of "oh shit" before it will collectively change its mind in any sort of meaningful fashion and you can bet one of your lesser-used internal organs that when it happens there will be so much spin from the usual suspects that it'll be snowing in July.
Given that the vast majority want closer relations with the EU
This isn't really true. It's true to say that according the latest polling I can find ( Delta-poll end of year for the Mail on Sunday) overall polling suggests that it's about 36% to 48% to stay out/rejoin*, but broken down to party support that changes to 69% to 19% for Reform voters, 59% to 30% for Conservative voters and 23% to 65% for Labour voters. Broken down generationally it swings from from strongly rejoin - Gen Z and Millennials, weakly rejoin Gen X and stay out - Baby Boomers. So that "vast majority" translated to voting; mostly younger, who largely vote (if at all) Labour already.
That's not necessarily a winning cohort.
*Edit, I've just realised that adding the "don't knows" to that makes it 52% to 48%, I'm pretty sure I recognise those numbers from somewhere...If only I could put my finger on it.
The blame lies straight at the feet of the Tory Party, do not ever let them forget
Of course it does, but that doesn't mean Corbyn couldn't have done more to stop them
I voted for pretty much the only mainstream Party to directly oppose Brexit in 2019 – did you?
I voted for the party most likely to ensure that we didn't get a Tory in the constituency where I voted
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
I travel a fair bit for work and miss browsing the stamps and reminiscing. That came in handy today as I had no phone signal in the airport so I spent some time flicking through my passport and thinking about the places I had visited whilst waiting in the Q for the 'non EU' passport holders* so that's nice.
* Which always seems longer/slower than the EU one, sometimes significantly so.
The blame lies straight at the feet of the Tory Party, do not ever let them forget
Of course it does, but that doesn’t mean Corbyn couldn’t have done more to stop them
Corbyn is a brexiteer - He's always been anti- EU, he likes 'socialism' but not when he doesn't get to call the shots, so not socialist at all - he 3 line whipped his MP's to vote through the triggering of article 50, for gods sake.
Different motivation and ideology to the far right, but same goal, He's just as complicit in this mess as Farage and Rees Mogg.
Given that the vast majority want closer relations with the EU
This isn’t really true. It’s true to say that according the latest polling I can find (Delta-poll end of year for the Mail on Sunday)
Something about that poll seems like it might be slightly skewed, not sure what it might be…
And that’s why Starmer’s pernicious lies are such a problem. He agrees with Farage on the principle of a hard Brexit being a good idea if only it’s done properly. He promises unicorns.
Those charts above don't show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
Something about that poll seems like it might be slightly skewed, not sure what it might be…
How the Mail on Sunday interpreted the polling might be one for debate, fo'shure, Delta-poll themselves are as good as most other pollsters AFAIK, there's a link to that poll on the previous page if you want to have a look at it.
We cannot have a significantly closer relationsip without the 4 freedom. Its Starmers position but its impossible
That's wrong. The EU have offered the UK 'associate membership' with comes with significant trading advantages, but much more limited requirements. (ECJ, and contributions to the budget)
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
I remember having to buy a new passport before it expired because it was full too, winding back the clock of progress, yet again...
whilst waiting in the Q for the ‘non EU’ passport holders* so that’s nice.
* Which always seems longer/slower than the EU one, sometimes significantly so.
I wonder why it's slower.....
Incidentally, if you are a charcutiere, you might be doing better....
Did have some of the Curing Rebels gear just before Xmas - was v lovely, if v expensive
But that's a sh1t lot of salami to make up a £40Bn gap each year.
So the thread could redraft its terms of engagement, no point looking for benefits and arguing about Corbyn. That doesn't change anything.
How can we push for that closer engagement w EU, that SM/CU membership....that's a much better use of our energies
That’s wrong. The EU have offered the UK ‘associate membership’ with comes with significant trading advantages, but much more limited requirements. (ECJ, and contributions to the budget)
No, associate membership means single market (but without any say over the rules). So 4 freedoms just as tj said. It's completely ruled out by Starmer's red lines.
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
Boosting the sales of physical stamps and ink in countries other than the UK!
And I'll bet we source our stamps and ink from the EU too.
Soz - being daft because nearly 9 years in and there are basically no benefits, only problems - and still this is treated by politicians as some kind of holy cow.
Hahaha.
Those charts above don’t show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
I think it’s why no rejoining of the sm &b cu is not being suggested as in the current climate it would be political suicide, as the vote changes closer to rejoin as natural wastage takes out the people it’s a more likely that will possible appear on the table when it actually has a chance 🙁
That YouGov poll would be more meaningful if follow-up questions were:
- What is the EU?
- What is the Customs Union?
- What is the Single Market?
and vaguely correct answers were then tallied against previous responses. If I were a betting man I'd wager the respondents who answered all three correctly would be in single digits of a percent and those who could answer just one would be fewer than half.
Independence for Scotland.
We get it and then when rUK sees how we prosper they follw us back in
You know when the UK left the EU squealing "they need us more than we need them" but what actually happened was that the EU27 collectively went "thank **** for that"?
🙂
Independence for Scotland.
We get it and then when rUK sees how we prosper they follw us back in
Broadly supportive of Scottish independence, but i was hoping for something a little nearer term for all the UK. I am still sure that we can push the rejoin agenda as the country sinks further behind other developed economies and everyone wants better standard of living
The “we won you lost” mentality will only end when the winners realise that we all win or lose together. This country needs a healthy dose of “oh shit” before it will collectively change its mind in any sort of meaningful fashion
^ so much this at the moment. We are in the thick of brexiteers sticking to the message and refusing to see the wood for the trees.
Sadly, we are years off any change and things will get more painful before they get better.
I am of the view we need some politicians to start speaking up on this and not shy away - but perhaps they are reading the audience and waiting a bit longer before picking up the argument with the committed brexiteers...
Those charts above don’t show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
Well, indeed.. The figures today would be even more in favour, if it was put to another referendum, IMO.
I'dcall it a dead cert to get back in..
The polar opposite of political suicide.
Of course the UK media, the right wingers, the stupid and the racist would kick up a huge and very loud fuss, but why not put the question back to the people?
Is that not what democracy is? No decisions are final.. This isn't a quiz show.
Let the people decide if we are still on track as a country.
It would be a total baller move for Starmer to do that.. But I don't think he has the stones for it.
Either that or Starmer is secretly happy with the current situation and that's the reason for his inaction.
Starmer wants whatever gives him the best chance of power, regardless of the consequences for the country.
Remove Farage and what's left for leave? What happened to UKIP Brexit party, etc. the whole thing is a one man band. Odd that such a thing is so linked to one person, but remove Farage and much of Brexit will collapse.
Wonder what all the new retired people are thinking , long summer holidays abroad. Then it's no chance of a long winter holiday in the Costas.
It would be a total baller move for Starmer to do that.. But I don’t think he has the stones for it.
Nails it.
Nails it.
I know, right?..he has a huge majority in the commons..he can push it through if he wants, but it doesn't seem to be on his agenda.
And it would elevate Starmer from 'boring centrist' status, to "Epic Legend" status, even if it goes pear shaped...
Interesting.. I spend a lot of time in Spain as I inherited property but being from the uk it's already difficult.
I rent the place out over summer so I guess I'm one of the 'bad guys' but it actually makes no profit, only just enough to pay for it's own upkeep* as I do it properly.
I have a tourist licence, I do it through a local spanish estate agency, pay them (15%) comission and pay local and national taxes - I pay 24% to the Spanish government on rental income, and that's all off the top line, so I'm 40% down before I've started, that's before upkeep/maintenence, local council tax, insurance, garbage collection, insane utility bills as tourists seemingly have the aircon on full blast 24/7 etc, etc.
*And the maintenence is never ending.. just last year i've had to replace one of the split aircon units for 700 euros, a water heater for about 300, and one of the garden walls fell over in a storm that the spanish insurance company just wouldn't cover for 'reasons'.... so I'm actually running at a large loss this financial year, it will take about 3 years to revover that loss, assuming I don't get any more big bills thrown at me.
There's no way you could make it work if you had a mortgage to pay against the property, as a UK/3rd world citizen you'd be making unsustainable losses, absolutley no question.
Interestingly where I am is on the coast, but not the usual Brit enclaves, it's a real mix of nationalities and very much an off the beaten track tourist destination...
It's very popular with Spanish tourists who live inland for holidaying by the sea, and other EU nationals, Dutch, Belgian, German, Scandis, you name it.
Probably half my 'guests' or more, are Spanish, the other half, are all sorts, throw a dart at a map of Europe and see where it lands.
So looking at it as objectivley as I can, from my biased perspective - this might clamp down on the dodgy Brits who rent via air B&B or privately and don't pay any tax, which is a good thing.
But it's not going to help the Spanish housing issue for locals...because, belive it or not, if we put our 'british exceptionalism' aside, outside of hell holes like benedorm etc, brits don't actually make up a huge percantage of 'landlords' - far from it.. it's mostly wealthy Spaniards, or other EU nationals.
Starmer wants whatever gives him the best chance of power, regardless of the consequences for the country.
Bet you voted for Johnson in 2019...
I know, right?..he has a huge majority in the commons..he can push it through if he wants, but it doesn’t seem to be on his agenda.
Because we've left FFS; and any public statement made by UK Representatives just means a poorer outcome (for the UK) from any negotiations - just like with ANY negotiation.
No, associate membership means single market (but without any say over the rules). So 4 freedoms just as tj said
Without admittedly looking that hard, I cannot find anywhere that says that associate membership being offered to the UK has to accept the 4 freedoms. Can you point me in the direction of an article or source?
Spain is planning to impose a tax of up to 100% on the value of properties bought by non-residents from countries outside the EU, such as the UK
I wish we'd done something like that about 15 years ago. Protectionism, I know... but housing needs to be shifted back to being homes first, investments second... not the other way around.
it’s mostly wealthy Spaniards, or other EU nationals
After Spaniards, it's UK nationals, by quite some margin. Russia and China also in the mix. Moroccans as well, but that's no surprise, as they're right next door.
After Spaniards, it’s UK nationals, by quite some margin.
Seems you are right... not the case in my locale, but I suppose I don't see the whole picture nationaly...
https://rightcasa.com/figures-reveal-brits-are-still-the-main-foreign-property-buyers-in-spain/
Why brits would still be the main buyers after Spaniards is kind of confusing to me... it doesn't make a huge amount of financial sense for a Brit to buy in Spain post-brexit. I mean for a start you have to pay 24% income tax on rentals (with no ofsets) as opposed to a Spaniard or indeed any other EU citizen, they pay 19% and can offset costs against the tax liability, such as insurance and essential maintenence, etc.
It would only really make sense if you sell up in the UK, become tax resident in spain and actually live there full time properly.
Rich UK people buy homes in France and Spain mostly. Rich people in other European countries have their second homes (although it might be the only home they own… renting your city home and owning a weekend/holiday home much more normal) more widely spread across Europe. That would be my guess.
Have a look at recent buying patterns for Russia and China though… despite the historically high UK figures, it’s what could be coming that is interesting (and perhaps a threat). I doubt UK buyers are the target for the measures, we’re just going to caught up in it because… you know… we voted for it.
Bet you voted for Johnson in 2019…
WTF? You new here?
Without admittedly looking that hard, I cannot find anywhere that says that associate membership being offered to the UK has to accept the 4 freedoms. Can you point me in the direction of an article or source?
(and conversely, if you don't think it means membership of the single market, what do you imagine it actually does mean?)
The end of an era?
Nickc
1: nothing was offered to the uk. Associate membership is an idea from a study around rationalization of various countries positions ie succession countries efta and Switzerland.
2: the 4 freedoms are indivisible is a key bit of eu law. You cannot have free trade without the other 3
if you don’t think it means membership of the single market, what do you imagine it actually does mean?
Your Telegraph link is behind a paywall, and the Independent article doesn't mention the 4 freedoms. All the articles I've read haven't specified that the 4 freedoms are included in the deal, just an undertaking to abide by ECJ rulings and some financial contributions. Given that the EU know that the UK Govt has specified that they wouldn't agree to anything with the 4 freedoms included, on the face of it, it seems odd that the EU would offer it. I'm genuinely confused, not looking to argue about it. Are you're just assuming (makes sense) that inclusion in the single market as this so called "associate member" has to include the 4 freedoms?
Which comes back to my original comment, I can't find a source that tells me what the actual agreement contains, and wondered if you had at all. (Ideally not from a partisan source like the Telegraph)
nothing was offered to the uk
This Independent article from 2023 seems to suggest that this is some sort of proposal for the UK?
2: the 4 freedoms are indivisible is a key bit of eu law.
Sure, for EU members, what's the source for the rules about associate membership requirements?
You've been very coy about your "all the articles". What articles did you read and what did they say?
The wikipedia page also explicitly makes the same point
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_re-accession_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_the_European_Union
so it's not like I'm just taking one partisan source, rather it's what everyone who knows about this stuff agrees on.
People don't have to explicitly spell out the 4 freedoms stuff every time the topic comes up. It's been well understood by everyone who has any knowledge of this stuff for the past decade. If you're in the single market, that's the 4 freedoms, including freedom of movement (though not quite to the extent the UK actually implemented it in practice of course). That's quite literally what the single market is.
Of course there isn't an "agreement" to point to, no-one actually agreed on it!
I repeat: what articles did you read, what did they say, and what do you imagine associate membership would (could) mean?
I mean, this whole thing about cherry-picking from the 4 freedoms was so thoroughly debunked while we were actually failing to cherry-pick the 4 freedoms in the brexit negotiations, it's pretty remarkable that someone would try to bring it up 8 years later and pretend it was actually on the table. Have you been on Mars in the meantime?
Well, I tried to find some sort of official EU report detailing the requirements, but my Google-fu is failing. I read plenty of articles like the Indy one that just says what others say - undertake to abide by the ECJ and make some contributions. From what I've read, associate membership would only give limited access to the single market, not full membership (there being no point in offering it otherwsie, no?) and no detail on what(if any) the other requirements are.
It's frustrating.
The end of an era?
Not for me, I'm stuck in the middle.... I'm an 'accidental landlord' and my spanish house is from inheritence, but it's also my retirement fund as my pensions aint worth jack.
Realistically I'm going to have to sell, but I'm holding on for another 5-10 years to hopefully take advantage of increacing property prices, because I'm technically making a small loss on rentals, I'm certainly not making profit.
Maybe I will have to cut my losses, and sell sooner, at which point I'll get shafted for a further 20% on the sale too, but I'm not quite there yet.
Ideally I'd like to sell up in the UK (because, let's face it, the UK rubbish these days) and retire in Spain.
Spain has its own problems, but the weather is better and you can eat really well and healthily quite a bit cheaper than the UK.
But I don't qualify for any visas, not the digital nomad, and not the 'golden visa' which I can't quite make the bar for, and they are doing away with thay anyway...
I might qualify for Spanish residency in future though, but you need serious money & private health insurance to demonstrate you won't be a burden on the Spanish economy at the moment.
I actually resent being british at the moment, I feel like a prisoner in my own country.
There never was any official proposal, it was a bit of kite-flying. But no one was in any doubt about the kite being flown which is why Starmer shut it down so forcefully.
I might qualify for Spanish residency in future though, but you need serious money & private health insurance to demonstrate you won’t be a burden on the Spanish economy at the moment.
Yep, I think this was one of those things that never really got a proper mention pre Brexit that living the dream wasn’t going to as accessible as it was, the Non lucrative Visa is :
Proof of sufficient financial resources is crucial. For an individual, this means having at least €28,800 in savings or income from passive sources. For married couples, the requirement is €36,000, and for a family of four, it is €50,400. These figures are reviewed annually and adjusted for inflation. *these figures are correct at the time of publishing (June 2024)
I have heard of some regions requiring proof of double this for the renewal.
Once your not an EU citizen you end up at the mercy of Spanish bureaucracy 🙁
Ideally I’d like to sell up in the UK (because, let’s face it, the UK rubbish these days) and retire in Spain.
Couldn’t you rent the U.K. and live Spain ?
Excellent, I'm hoping to pick up a cheap expat's property.
€28,800 in savings or income from passive sources.
Per year, if you want to stand any chance of your visa being renewed.... so you'd need to be retired on a very good private pension, as you are not allowed to work in Spain on a 'non lucrative' visa.... they should have probably called it a 'retirement visa' but I supose it also applies to people with loads of dosh who don't need to work but are not technically 'retired'.
Couldn’t you rent the U.K. and live Spain ?
No, I don't have enough money to do that... I'd still have to work, and I wouldn't be able to legally work in Spain on a 'non-lucrative visa'.
I looked into the 'digital nomad visa', but that's another kettle of crazy requirements and tax complications.
So basically I'm just treading water and hoping UK/EU relations improve a lot in a decade or so....but I'm not holding my breath.
Brexit Benefit: having Cakeism and eating Cakeism; never-ending Cakeism.
Nickc
The very best we could have without the 4 freedoms would be something like the deal Turkey has. Limited tariff free trade in limited range of goods.
Two big hurdles however. Turkey is an accession state thus gets a deal and also the eu have made it 100% clear that nothing will be discussed until we actually implement the withdrawal agreement that we are in multiple breaches of.
My girlfriend agreed to marry me because moving around Europe is such a pain in the arse with my stupid British passport. Once we get that done we just have to stay together for a year and a half so I can get a nice new EU country passport (not sure what colour it is though).
Brexit has done away with the need for romance! Which is good for me because I am absolutely terrible at it.
Per year, if you want to stand any chance of your visa being renewed….
I should probably qualify that....you could use a non lucrative visa for (x years, I'm not sure the requirement without looking it up), and then apply for Spanish residency.
But that means you will then be tax domiciled in Spain rather than the UK, but still a UK citizen, so again, that brings a whole lot of tax implications with property, pensions and healthcare, etc.
Brexit has done away with the need for romance!
I've half jokingly said to my late dads friend and her daughter I'd be happy to marry her daughter when we were all a bit drunk one night.
(who's a similar age to me, calm down at the back!) to get a proper passport, and I'd make it 'well worth her while'. Purely a business transaction, no funny business.
I wasn't told to 'go eff myself', by either mother or daughter so that's a possible option, hahah!
Madness.
But that means you will then be tax domiciled in Spain rather than the UK, but still a UK citizen, so again, that brings a whole lot of tax implications with property, pensions and healthcare, etc.
TBH that was always an issue before Brexit 🙂
(which is why a few expats returned as they didn’t want to be on the radar)
IMHO the worst part is that previously you could have wandered over on a normal pension as the monetary requirement for an eu residency was around €7,000 (it’s a quarter of the non-eu)
So the dream of moving to Spain was possible for a load more people who don’t have fancy final salary based pensions or a shed load of cash.
Let's join a union of trade with the EU....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-starmer-ed-davey-eu-brexit-b2680185.html
In today's brexit news,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c17edyz11nno
Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch has criticised her predecessors for mishandling Brexit, saying leaving the EU without a growth plan was a "mistake".
...
Badenoch pledged to tell hard truths "even when it's difficult to hear" to restore trust with the public.
I’ve half jokingly said to my late dads friend and her daughter I’d be happy to marry her daughter when we were all a bit drunk one night.
You should have seen the (small) flurry of offers i got once i got my Swedish citizenship approved.
It was certainly into double digits of offers directly on the facebook post i made with a picture of the new passport. 3 or 4 have managed to make the move since then, Spain, Germany and France IIRC.
More than one asked about what sort of arrangements we could make.
(I'd been separated for 3 or 4 years at that point and already in the final stages of a divorce.)
Weirdly it could be the conservatives they take us back into the EU, once enough water has passed under the bridge it may be seen as a vote winner for someone.
Well, Isabel Oakeshot now lives in Dubai which is a net UK gain.
The extent of the extreme right wings' hypocrisy is astonishing. Along with the newspapers, that Joe from Essex reads, their owners also live abroad, peeing outside the tent inwards. Yet their great lumpenproletariat cultists just ignore this.
Bit of a potential kick for anyone british planning a move to Spain
https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2025/0119/1491702-spain-housing/
Move closer to Europe – not Trump’ voters tell Starmer in major UK poll
Pressure growing on Labour to improve trade with EU as Rachel Reeves admits Brexit damaged UK
From the observer. It's well past time Starmer accepted his hard brexit position is unsustainable. Of course this means accepting the 4 freedoms and Starmer needs to sell this
But wouldn't this require a referendum? This time the UK would need to adopt the Euro etc.
Care to explain?
Caher. Switzerland type deal. Norway type deal. EFTA membership. Associate membership. All compatible with the referendum we had. All possible with the political will from Starmer.
Starmers absurd hard befit position is damaging the country and the party.
Look TJ when we lived in the UK in 2016 we voted remain. But both Europe and the UK have moved in different directions since then and getting back might not be so easy. Populism in the UK has hardened and the the often disruptive UK was always accommodated due to it's economic power. I'm just not so sure the UK will get back on the same terms.
“Get back”?
No.
”Work with”?
Yes.
All the better possible relationships (ie. most beneficial) require the four freedoms though, as TJ points out… and UK politics can’t take that right now (IMHO).
We’re in “fix all this shit with one arm tied around your back” territory, aren’t we.
Caher. Kelvin
Multiple polls show an ever increasing majority for rapprochement with the EU including the 4 freedoms.
It's only a political impossibility because Starmer is a hard Brexiteer now. Even Reeves is shifting
No it wouldn't be on the same terms and we would need a sustained spell in a halfway position like Norway
Yea ok.
TBH one of the big lies were we weren’t going to leave the single market (not sure how that was going to work),
Labour does seem to be taking the easy way out of not mentioning he who must not be named and holding it sacrosanct.
Your report of David Lammy’s Chatham House speech (Labour will reconnect ‘tarnished UK’ with European allies, say Lammy, 23 January) states that he would “stress Labour has no intention of returning either to the EU single market or the customs union, regarded by Labour as issues that were settled irrevocably by the 2016 referendum”.
Let’s be clear: leaving the single market and customs union was not part of the leave prospectus in 2016; indeed, several prominent Brexiters gave assurances that the UK’s place in the single market and customs union was not at risk. It was Theresa May, in her Lancaster House speech in January 2017, who made the decision to leave the single market and customs union.
Labour should not be colluding in the fiction that these issues were “settled irrevocably by the referendum”. They were not. If Labour is serious about correcting the damage caused by “the government’s bad Brexit deal” it should start from a correct account of the historical record: the decision to leave the single market and customs union was taken by the Conservative government, not by the people.
Prof Paul Willner
Lord Hannan of Kingsclere perhaps that was a Brexit benefit for someone 🙂
Well, Isabel Oakeshot now lives in Dubai which is a net UK gain.
I'd rather move to Kabul. I'd prefer to navigate the Taliban than the masses of horrific individuals with bad veneers , excess fillers and Botox sweats trying to flog me a MLM 'coaching' schemes.