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So unionists in NI and the brexit "brake" which way will Starmer go? Piss off the NI unionists or the EU? I bet he appeases the NI unionists
To all the cheerleaders for PR, I should point out that here in Spain at least it certainly has led to the more extremist parties getting significant political power
But it's giving people what they think they want.
Sure, plenty of people are effing idiots and there is a healthy dose of "be careful what you wish for" going on here, but it's difficult to argue that it's unfair. If 20% of your population are racist nutters, it makes sense to have 20% of your parliament to be made up of racist nutters in order to provide them with representation.
The alternative is to educate the populace at large, and to allocate people into positions of control who are qualified to do the job and have the nation's best interests at heart. Pass the needle and thread, my sides have just split.
I bet he appeases the NI unionists
Given that he's the PM of Britain, who are not a member of the EU, he's unlikely not to support British people in this regard. This is a pretty basic part of his job description really.
Yeah, it’s a bit further up the thread.
Can you provide the exact quote please?
nickc - but in supporting the unionists he would actually make things worse for the people? Its also a good test of whether he genuinely wants a rapprochement with the EU or as I believe its fine words to gaslight labour supporters while his actions are to support brexit and piss off the EU.
Rapprochement with the EU would be overwhelmingly to the benefit of the UK population particularly the NI population
Can you provide the exact quote please?
Sure, although you could have just looked a page back ?
No its not and FPTP has given us numerous hard right tory governments on a minority of the vote
I'll let you see what he's replying to. (And I'm not denying the second part of the comment, just the idea that PR is a sure-fire way to avoid extremist governments. It's not.)
My comment and the context was that someone claimed PR always lets extremists in and the answer I gave was no its not because it isn't. Most of these so called extremist parties are no more so that the tories and a lot less than reform. Not every PR government has extremists in power. However our FPTP does let extremists in. It can be either way but PR does not give rise automatically to extremists getting in. Where are the extrmists in Scotland?
We ended up with a hard right tory party in power on a minority of the vote. could not happen under PR
We ended up with a hard right tory party in power on a minority of the vote. could not happen under PR
Yeah, that's where you're wrong. PR doesn't guarantee that extremist parties don't get into government. What happens is that the Tories win 33% of the vote, Labour 29%, Reform 10%, and the Liberals 8%. (Other parties get the rest.) After negotiations, we end with a government where the Tories hold the PM, Exchequer, and a whole load of other ministries. But to form that government they have to offer Reform the Home Office. So technically they're not the government, but in practice they form a large part of it. And that drags the government to the right.
Yeah, that’s where you’re wrong. PR doesn’t guarantee that extremist parties don’t get into government.
You could just read what all of what TJ wrote eg "It can be either way but PR does not give rise automatically to extremists getting in. ".
So the only person making claims that PR can never lead to extremist parties in government is you. Of course it can as can any political system short of a dictatorship/absolute monarchy which doesnt allow for political parties.
Of course these options have a few downsides.
PR doesn’t guarantee that extremist parties don’t get into government
I never said it did. What I said was that PR does not necessarily lead to extremists in government and we have had an extreme right wing government with FPTP
Mogrim - where are the extremists in Scotland? PR government remember?
Most PR governments end up in social democratic coalitions. Long term stable ones
No worries Mogrim. It happens 🙂
Most PR governments end up in social democratic coalitions
That's a lovely idea, but unfortunatley in practice they can easily tilt to the left or right.
Its where almost all european governments have been since the wart.
https://the5krunner.com/2024/12/20/garmin-varia-light-ban-extended-in-eu/
Might have actually found one.
Almost all bike lights including these are actually illegal in the UK as well. You must have a steady rear light that meets the relevant standards. almost impossible to find
You guys do realise we have still not completed the process of leaving. We have not implemented the import checks needed under the various agreements made - a very damaging thing. Until we have done this the EU will not discuss any changes to the withdrawal agreement. So for all Starmers warm words nothing will change until its got a lot worse by introducing these checks
A rear lamp showing a red light, positioned between 35cm and 150cm from the ground, facing rearwards. If capable of emitting only a flashing light, it must emit at least four candela. If capable of emitting a steady light, it must comply to BS3648, or BS6102/3 standards
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/bike-light-laws-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know
Not quite as I thought. Thanks for the clarification
Almost all bike lights including these are actually illegal in the UK as well. You must have a steady rear light that meets the relevant standards. almost impossible to find
This isn't quite right.
The requirement for a steady light was dropped years ago, flashing lights fixed to the bike front and back as the only lighting are perfectly legal. However, if your flashing light is capable of also producing a steady light then this must comply with BS-something which almost all don't as you say.
Perversely, most modern lights fail the BS standard because they're too good, legislation has not kept up with technology (I know, I was shocked too). If you had an Ever Ready lamp from the 1970s that took one of those batteries the size of a Nori brick you'd probably be golden. 🙂
Damn it, you lot type faster than I do!
I did wonder why I got a really good price on my varia rear camera from Germany thou:-)
I did notice the numbers were different but I’d not took much notice.
Rapprochement with the EU would be overwhelmingly to the benefit of the UK population particularly the NI population
Sure but we voted to leave. So fantasy politics aside, perhaps siding with what British people said they want will do more for his terrible poll rating?
the british people have said they want back in! NI folk are strongly in favour of the windsor agreement and being in the EU. Its the unionists acting against the interests of the people here. Being honest about brexit might well gain him more .
Still we haven't yet seen his response to this bit of deliberate wrecking action from the unionists
the british people have said they want back in!
Was there another referendum that I missed? None of my Brexit UK mates have changed their minds and would vote leave tomorrow. They're suspicious of Starmer's moves towards the EU.
Polling consistently shows a large majori8ty for return and even brexiteer voters have accepted SM and CU as necessary.
the point of this tho is this is purely a wrecking action from the NI unionists. Its a labeling requirement that NI need to adhere to because of the windsor agreement. The only products that will not be labeled in the way the EU want are those which are only sold in the UK. Any company that sells into the EU will need to adhere to that labeling requirement. so its a very small number of products that will need this extra labeling to sell in NI but not in the remainder of the UK
Its purely wrecking action from the unionists
the british people have said they want back in!
Some of them have.
There is still a narrative that "reversing" - ie, doing something different - would be undemocratic. People who want back in have been convinced that to do so would be a betrayal of what passes for a political system here. Credit where it's due, Leave.EU and their supporting cast really did a bang-up job of pulling the wool over the nob of the UK public.
I've found a Brexit benefit!!!!!!
Pre covid and Brexit we regularly took Bert to France on his blue passport. The only expiry was his rabies shot that needed doing every 3 years but the passport was endless unless it was filled up with 'stamps'
Nowadays he needs an animal health certificate to travel - in this case its12 pages in Dutch (first port of entry) and the total bill with a rabies injection was £200+. It only lasts 4 months.
I know cheaper alternatives can be issued at local exit ports but I don't want the hassle. So the benefit is my vet gets extra work than they had previously.
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cougar - and Starmer is complicit in that with his constant lies and gaslighting. " no economic case for return" *rolleyes*
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We have a government that wants closer ties with the rest of Europe. At this point there is no point asking for more than is possible. So keep working on convergence (yeah, like readable warnings on chemicals) and tear up plans for divergence (the USA isn't going to reward us for doing so anyway). Politicians need to sell that convergence without having to spend all their time batting off cries of "betrayal", so leave any questions of "membership" or "joining" anything for another time, when it might be possible. For now, align, and be cooperative, it's in everyone's interest.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Gaslighting is a colloquialism, defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality. The expression, which derives from the title of the 1944 film Gaslight, became popular in the mid-2010s. Merriam-Webster cites deception of one's memory, perception of reality, or mental stability.
Is exactly how I mean it and what Starmer is doing. He is constantly making false claims about brexit like " no economic case for rejoin" He says he wants a closer relationship then snubs every overture and is highly offensive to the EU in doing so. He is claiming to be one thing and doing the opposite. Its a clear attempt to alter folks perception of reality.
For now, align, and be cooperative, it’s in everyone’s interest.
I agree. Unfortunately that is NOT what Starmer is doing. Its what he is saying he is doing ( partly anyway) but his actions are very different.
Brexiter and mate are exclusive.
the British people have said they want back in!
About 50%ish
Some of them have.
As above, but I believe only 17% or so are happy with Brexit as it is
Hmmm you should try getting a pet passport issued for your dog next time you’re in Spain, I think France is finicky over wanting a French address.
It doesn’t make all the problems disappear as you need to have the rabies shots done in the EU but if you can work the times in your holidays this could save you a fair bit.
E.U pet passport is valid in U.K.
It's still possible to get a pet passport in Europe, because it's nothing to do with nationality, it's only a record of rabies vaccination status. France is more difficult than other countries because they also have to be registered on the microchip database, and that creates additional hoops to jump through.
Meanwhile, over in Cloud Cuckoo Land, the Sun is launching a "save brexit" campaign.
https://leftfootforward.org/2024/12/the-suns-dont-betray-brexit-campaign-mocked/
The EU has "secret plans" apparently. How this supposedly affects us now we've left I cannot fathom.
Save the precious,they is wanting to take the precious away from us 🙂
I’m not sure why they have such a reluctance over making amendments to the deal, and something small like getting the U.K. pet passport recognised is hardly a biggy but makes peoples lives easier and letting the kids having a taste of what we had isn’t a big deal, although unfair on people over 30.
I’m not sure why they have such a reluctance over making amendments to the deal
1) Because the UK is in breach of the withdrawal agreement and has not implemented everything needed yet ( the most damaging import controls) The EU has made it clear nothing will be discussed until we are no longer in breech. The UK is being taken to court for this
2) disgusting treatment of EU citizens in the UK - you guessed it - in breach of the withdrawal agreement. We have been deporting folk with the right to stay
3) Starmers duplicity has annoyed the EU folk that need to sign off any deal. refusing the young folk movement scheme was a real slap in the face to the EU folk that set it up just for the UK
4) Starmers attempts to do one on one deals in breach of EU law
TBH I was thinking about the Sun, U.K. has no interest in making life easy for its citizens as that would be seen as betraying Brexit and as you say the E.U aren’t interested as the U.K. haven’t honoured their side of the agreement.
The whole WA was a farce in protecting the rights of the U.K. citizens already in EU as we lost our rights of freedom of movement and I’m still in limbo awaiting my residency and I’m not the only one.
William Keegan writing in the observer (he is a right winger and has until now backed the "brexit is brexit" position and praised Starmers position). Even he has changed his tune
For the UK it becomes more and more obvious that we should be better protected within the European trading tent than outside it. The economic damage wrought by Brexit is now so manifest that recent surveys indicate that a majority of electors would like us to rejoin the customs union and the single market.
We need to join them; but, despite Starmer’s emphasis on better relations with the EU, his, and his chancellor’s, stubborn refusal to countenance rejoining the customs union and the single market leave his negotiating team with both hands tied behind their backs.
TBH I was thinking about the Sun
Brexit is a cult effectively - one organised by and for grifters. The sun is owned by folk who want brexit for their own "disruptive" reasons and who want reduced workers rights. the Sun is just a propaganda organ for these folk. they need to keep the cult alive by inventing fake stories
Brexit is a cult effectively
It's certainly espoused by cults.
Including Starmer?
* runs away*
The whole WA was a farce in protecting the rights of the U.K. citizens already in EU as we lost our rights of freedom of movement and I’m still in limbo awaiting my residency and I’m not the only one.
think yourself lucky! EU citizens in the UK in your position are being deported
TBH the cases I’ve seen in the U.K. were people who had left the U.K. without settled status and attempted a return and ran into Border Farce.
Leaving Spain with an ongoing residency application is treated as you not wanting to continue the application so if I did what they had done I’d likely be in a world of pain as they request copies of every page of your passport and stamps in mine would have nullified my application.
It’s wrong but it’s not only the U.K. messing about with peoples lives with bureaucratic games 🙁
Mogrim – where are the extremists in Scotland? PR government remember?
According to many FB posts I see, in power 🙂
We need to join them; but, despite Starmer’s emphasis on better relations with the EU, his, and his chancellor’s, stubborn refusal to countenance rejoining the customs union and the single market leave his negotiating team with both hands tied behind their backs.
This is the thing I find really frustrating. It's obvious that better trading relations with the EU are needed and this conversation has to start sometime with the electorate and it's going to have to be Starmer who starts it . If economic growth is the target an easier way to trade with the big continent right next to you is surely an obvious choice .
Starmer knows this , the Tories know this ...I'll bet even Farage knows this but Starmer needs to be brave enough to actually start telling people .
Yup, that would be brave… the betrayal narrative would see Labour back in opposition at the next possible opportunity. The country needs to get closer to Europe before it is ready to integrate back in with it (and that’s on both a practical and political level). If you can’t stabilise and align now, there is little point selling integration to the voters. Do what needs doing first before starting all the psychodrama of campaigning to be in the single market and customs union.
Even with the baby steps that Starmer is taking to rebuild relationships, the media are out to paint him as “never in the country” (how dare he meet with his international counterparts) and “selling us out” (talking to the EU President, who does he think he is, our Prime Minister?!?)
Oh, and when SM and/or CU do become possible, and are a live issue again, Starmer will be long gone. It’s going to be a decade away. The “wake up tomorrow and find it was all a dream” scenario is nonsense… it’s a long boring slog ahead for the UK… Brexit stinks… but there is no quick fix, which is why we should never have left the way we did. But hey.
Balderdash Kevin. You have been successfully gaslit
Why would a policy backed by 60 plus % of the uk cause a election loss. Why would a policy that gave immediate postive economic effects cause an election loss?
Because wanting something and it being available are not the same thing.
See people voting for that brighter future by leaving the EU. Who cares if 52% of the people wanted it, or 99%, it was never available.
First we have to align with the EU and defuse the political climate. We can’t jump from where we are to being inside the SM or CU, the groundwork needs laying. And that is going to take a long time.
full return will take time . Rapprochement is possible if starmer stops lying and actually does what he says he is doing.
An associate deal like Norway Switzerland or turkey has always been available. Starmer by refusing the 4 freedoms has ruled this out.
The only real obstacle here is Starmers insistance on the hardest of hard Brexit.
On elections, Labour being painted as “choosing foreigners over Brits” is exactly the fuel needed for Reform to take seats off Labour across huge areas of the UK. Remember, demographics and geographic spread mean that national vote share (and national polling on the issue of Europe) don’t tell you everything.
Because wanting something and it being available are not the same thing.
And why would that cause an election loss?
There is zero logic in what you say.
Starmer by refusing the 4 freedoms has ruled this out.
Are you pretending not to see what would happen if Labour went into an election in less than 5 years time saying it was in favour for the 4 freedoms. Come on now…
Consider yourself sucessfullygaslight. So apolicy wanted by 2/3 of tbe population and opposed by less than 1 in 5 lose votes?
60% supposedly back rejoining the EU. But, presumably, given the ****wittery exhibited back in 2016 - much of that 60% will think we can just waltz back in to the same arrangements we had before. That won't be the case.
God knows what the solution is, but the question should never have been asked back in 2016.
No. They are meant to get you to think about what has happened to folk that adopt your position which has no basis in logic or fact and is instead the oppiste of where facts and logic take you
According to you a policy which is hugely popular and would create an immediate economic boost would be a vote loser.
Its absurd
Even a majority of brexit voters would now accept sm and cu
Where are you getting these numbers from?
instead the oppiste of where facts and logic take you
Where your interpretation of both UK politics and EU treaties take you… both of which we can talk about, and I don’t agree with. I think you misjudge the voters south of the border, and have rose tinted glasses on when looking at what is required for the UK to become a partner in the Single Market again… and the Customs Union is even more tricky, and further off. We ideally need to be involved with both, but in the short term it’s impossible, and gifting power to Reform or the Tories proposing things that aren’t going to happen anytime soon would be madness.
it’s going to have to be Starmer who starts it
I do wonder suddenly whether the whole point of Starmer is to fly a holding pattern until his replacement arrives.
You have been successfully gaslit
You keep using that word, etc.
To gaslight someone is to manipulate them into a position where they question their own sanity, where they mistrust their own recollection of events. Is that what you're suggesting is happening here? Frankly that's an offensive accusation.
IMHO , ‘Stop the boats’ and Farage have to be out of the picture before the people are offered the opportunity to vote for something involving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If Musk starts funding Reform and supporting them with his platform plus the uncertainty of what madness will come out of Amerika.
The drip-drip of of anti immigration rhetoric is likely to become a flood, it’s currently already on drip feed on Facebook at the moment.
There’s still legs in Brexit as a political McGuffin it’s not played out yet.
"Labour back in opposition at the next possible opportunity"
Labour is already going to be back in opposition at the next possible opportunity. They could barely muster 33% following the most catastrophic tory govt in...ever, and only "won" because the right wing split. In any normal election year it would have been a dismal loss, and the way things are going it will certainly be a dismal loss next time.
The only question is whether they actually try to do anything worthwhile in the 5 years they have available.
The only hope they have of winning next time is if they dare to try to turn things around and inspire some enthusiasm and support, "more of the same" certainly won't cut it.
Yup, that would be brave… the betrayal narrative would see Labour back in opposition at the next possible opportunity
But that's the point isn't it . At some point someone is going to have to be the leader that stands up to the mail and the sun and all the other Brexit backers who will scream betrayal. The longer it's left the more damage will be done and the harder it will be to repair.
Labours main goal can't be to not lose the next election , I was willing to cut them a lot of slack during opposition and the election as for me getting the Tories out was the priority. But they have the ball now and at some point they have to run with it .
What was it
Thatcher, Thatcher, milk snatcher
Well that’s probably not as good as Sir Starmer and the Granny Harmers little Christmas song of Freezing this Christmas.
The second freedom of movement is mentioned, the Pied Piper of Clacton will be tuning up.
If a straight rejoin/join referendum could be held in, say March, it would not be >60% in favour. And don't forget what impact that shit-stirrer Musk could have too.
Even a majority of brexit voters would now accept sm and cu
Do you have the stats for this?
Although bearing in mind that was what was being promised by the brexit turds at the referendum it is fairly believable. Just depends on how many believe the reprogramming that they actually voted for the hardest of brexits.
It is fascinating all the people arguing that no one should speak in favour of closer links to Europe in fear of upsetting the right wing loons.
They seem to miss the fact the opponents are basically unreachable anyway. They will believe the lies of the right wing press so might as well do the job properly and let the right wing rags speak the truth for once.
That way labour might retain a few votes.
It is
fascinatingworrying all the people arguing that no one should speak in favour of closer links to Europe in fear ofupsetting the right wing loonsstirring up the hidden prejudices in a serious minority or narrow majority of UK voters again.
Non-populist politicians are shit-scared about what 23/06/16 revealed about the electorate. Even the substance of what it revealed is uncertain. Gullibility? Prejudice? Racism? In what proportions?
For populists, of course, it is a dream come true.
David ****ing Cameron has a lot to answer for.
It is fascinating all the people arguing that no one should speak in favour of closer links to Europe in fear of upsetting the right wing loons.
“Building closer links to Europe” is exactly what the government should be talking about. That doesn’t need to include talk about “joining” anything though, that’s years off, and it risks a new government coming in and getting back on with bridge burning divergence. There’s a huge job to get on with now, without a distracting argument about something that isn’t happening for a long, long time.
Cougar
Its the only explanation i can see for all tbe folk on here who believe that Starmer is 1 doing his best to reconcile with europe and 2 that starmer is telling the truth about europe.
His actions and words do not match. He says one thing and does another. He says he is trying to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. The eu have told him that there will be no discussions until the withdrawal agreement is fully implemented and that and changes will be minor unless he accepts the 4 freedoms.
Starmer has also said no economic advatages to rejoin and talks about brexit benefits. Both nonsense
Starmer has also insultingly dismissed every olive branch offered. He has squandered all the goodwill shown.
What other explanation is there fir believing Starmer on this ? Wishful thinking?
“Building closer links to Europe” is exactly what the government should be talking about
Correct. Instead they spout fine words whilst their actions make the situation worse and increase barriers. There can be no cliser links while Starmer insists on a hard brexit continuing
Refusing the young persons mobilty schems was a highly offensive slap in the face to the EU and told tbe EU Starmer is not interested in anything other than warm words
Starmer says he is going to do stuff that is incompatible with EU law
Its obvioys the EU have decided he is not serious abot raporoachment
The level of delusion amongst Starmers supporters on here is brexiteer levels of delusion
We cannot have significantly cliser links whike we refuse tbe 4 freedoms and while he insultingly refuses every olive branch offered