[Closed] Brexit and other stuff

oxbridege nuptys

Far better to have people from The Derek Zoolander Centre for Kids Who Can’t Read Good.

The trivial task of leaving a trading block is too complicated for our lot, and you want to re-invent the world economy? Good luck with that.

@CaptainFlashheart, he does have a point the UK has been screwed for decades by Oxbridge/Eton/etc alumni, who, at the end of the day are incompetent.

The only good thing to come out of Brexit, MPs have generally been shown to be overpaid and pointless. Problem is they aren't going to change the gravy train.

As for Climate change, not a hope in hell, People are too wed to the way of life they have, ask people to give up driving or flying.

for an "economy" to exist there has to be a stable society, without food and water society will be in chaos.

No point in trying to fix an "economy" when it is not sustainable

There's a whole thread for this but

Isn’t it time to deal with the real issues facing society

It always is. But if Brexit trashes the economy then there'll be no money to fix any problems. This is one reason people are so upset about it.

MPs have generally been shown to be overpaid and pointless. Problem is they aren’t going to change the gravy train.

No, there's a lot of shrewd moves being played by MPs. The problem is with government and leadership. You should know the difference if you're going to piss and moan about it.

I think many people have had quite enough of driving and flying and are looking for something else in our very short lifespans.

As for Climate change, not a hope in hell, People are too wed to the way of life they have, ask people to give up driving or flying.

Or reproducing the very thing that causes pollution.
In fact the ONLY thing on the planet that causes pollution. (am happy to be corrected)

More humans.

here’ll be no money to fix any problems.

money might just be the principal cause of the problems

regarding the twisted view of economy, it really is not some imaginary beast that must be fed and grow without end

economy
[ ih-kon-uh-mee ]
noun,
thrifty management; frugality in the expenditure or consumption of money, materials, etc.

an act or means of thrifty saving; a saving: He achieved a small economy by walking to work instead of taking a bus.

the management of the resources of a community, country, etc., especially with a view to its productivity.

I think many people have had quite enough of driving and flying and are looking for something else in our very short lifespans.

True. Like a nice holiday, maybe.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/packing-a-bike-for-airplaneing/

True. Like a nice holiday, maybe.

We are well and truly buggered.

Yes we all are

Luckily we’ll be dead before it matters. Maybe all we need is a cure for ageing, then we might care.

Luckily we’ll be dead before it matters.

My nephews won't. Your kids and those of friends and family won't.

We need more drones. Or kites.

More people doing things like Extinction Rebellion.

Maybe all we need is a cure for ageing, then we might care.

We wouldn't be able to afford it.

No, there’s a lot of shrewd moves being played by MPs. The problem is with government and leadership. You should know the difference if you’re going to piss and moan about it.

A few,certainly, but many more, I could give the example of my MP who with one hand says no deal is bad and will never support it and then takes a job which means signing up to no deal.Rememeber that they agreed to A50 with no plan.

More people doing things like Extinction Rebellion.

unfortunately civil disobedience seems to be the last resort now that everything else is seemingly under the "control" of institutions who worship profit and have no respect for truth and justice and seek to escape the law.

But the law of physics or nature cannot be changed by people.

True. Like a nice holiday, maybe.

ha! fair cop, my car pool biking buddies let me down, hopefully an empty seat taken on a plane will be less CO2 than driving there solo as according to the online clacs

doubt I will ever do it again, hate airports and flying.

I for one am pleased to be ruled over by these great Oxford alumni

Interesting piece about anti natalists on the World Service right now

molgrips

Subscriber
But if Brexit trashes the economy then there’ll be no money to fix any problems. This is one reason people are so upset about it

It may be one reason against Brexit; but the main reason is because certain people have grandiose and overinflated feelings of entitlement, and are convinced that they are intellectually superior to everyone else with different views/opinions.
The STW Brexit thread will confirm that.

Trying to dress the STW anti-Brexit loons up as anything else is pretty pointless whilst that thread is still there to read.

Reasons for Brexit
- Growing economic inequality due to trickle-down economic policies (they never work), deindustrialisation, the rise of the banks and the subsequent bailouts
- Then punishing people with economic austerity, whilst the bankers got off for free
- The EU is moving in a centralist direction over time; the Euro is a bad idea which only benefits Germany and maybe France but ruins the economies of southern Europe; the EU does not have a reverse gear so lacks the ability to reform itself
- Britain is not really a European country due to the reformation and empire, it doesn't really belong in the EU in the first place - history matters

But the big question is - will Brexit automatically correct all the above? Or is it over time helping to radicalise the population and laying the ground for civil conflict not seen since the seventeenth century?

Nonsense, handybar. Chaeck out some studies of why people voted Brexit. It was remainers who voted for the sort of economic reasons you cite. The two overiding reasons for voting Brexit were.

‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’

which is polite for Brexiters being racist little Englanders. 🙂 I don't know many Brits in real life but in that tiny sample the Brexiters are just that.

Edukator +1

Know quite a few Brits abroad and only one of them (out of 20+) thinks brexit was a good idea.

The fact he's now having to look into Italian residency, changing his driving license and arranging health care he's not so keen.

Claiming to know why people voted a certain way is as daft using it to add weight to your own opinion.

Have any of these studies asked every person who voted for Brexit for their reason? if they did .. could they reliably guarantee that the answers they got were true? its nonsense.

In fact the ONLY thing on the planet that causes pollution. (am happy to be corrected)

Actually plants and the ocean produce at least 20 times more carbon than humans. About 30gt compared to 800gt.

Errr, plants and the oceans are natural carbon sinks. The natural source of CO2 is volcanism and that natural source is absorbed by natural mechanisms. See those limestone mountains, that's CaCo3 which is the skeletons of sea organisms.

@Educkater, Please can you cite those studies, happy to look into them and report back.

Jeez this thread isn’t helping me change my mind that we’re doomed

Ditto.

It may be one reason against Brexit; but the main reason is because certain people have grandiose and overinflated feelings of entitlement, and are convinced that they are intellectually superior to everyone else with different views/opinions.
The STW Brexit thread will confirm that.

That'd be a bit more credible mooman if you could make a coherent argument for Brexit, handybar has made a genuine effort rather than just chuck about insults 😉

It may be one reason against Brexit; but the main reason is because certain people have grandiose and overinflated feelings of entitlement, and are convinced that they are intellectually superior to everyone else with different views/opinions.
The STW Brexit thread will confirm that.

The main reason is that leavers like to make shit up and present it as fact, as you've just ably demonstrated.

This was one of THM's favourite straw men, and if you read the thread you're referring to you'll see it debunked at length (by me amongst many others) months ago. No-one - well, OK, very few people - are suggesting that all leavers are idiots. Aside from anything else, this is demonstrably untrue. Rather, all the idiots voted for brexit. It's a subtle but important difference.

And you can argue that black is white all you like but if you look at post-referendum analysis there is a clear correlation between education levels and how people were likely to vote. In fact it's the second greatest correlation after age. It saddens me somewhat that we're still having to have this conversation, but here we are.

Claiming to know why people voted a certain way is as daft using it to add weight to your own opinion.

Have any of these studies asked every person who voted for Brexit for their reason?

Yes, actually. It's very well documented now, we've had about three years' worth of analysis.

if they did .. could they reliably guarantee that the answers they got were true? its nonsense.

Your defence here is that leaver voters might be lying?

Quote studies? I'm a geologist, it's as established as apples falling to the ground. Tell you what,n you Google "carbons sinks" and if you can't find anything that suits a climate change denier agenda read this.

https://ocean-climate.org/?p=3896&lang=en

If you put climate-change deniers, Brexiters and conspiracy theorists into a venn diagram I reckon it would look like this:

As a random example, this popped up earlier today.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-brexit-supporters-why_uk_5d498b20e4b0d291ed070188

But the big question is – will Brexit automatically correct all the above? Or is it over time helping to radicalise the population and laying the ground for civil conflict not seen since the seventeenth century?

Not likely ! All Brexit has done so far is take £billions out of the government, bitterly divide the country sucked away all attention from any other issues & as we crash out on No deal that is set to get much much worse, very naive to think that the last 3 years of chaos won't be repeated for the next 10 !

Meanwhile even the populist Brexit party is stuffed with millionaire spivs & career political lobbyists, with money pumped in from American financiers to push their agenda.

Far better to have people from The Derek Zoolander Centre for Kids Who Can’t Read Good.

Yes, because that's the only alternative to an Oxbridge education right?

With comments like that I guess you're speaking based on a limited experience of the world.

https://www.populus.co.uk/insights/2016/05/the-brexit-index-a-whos-who-of-remain-and-leave-supporters/

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/

http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

And many, many more, I'm sure you can use Google as well as anyone else. But yeah, they were probably all just making it up.

it’s as established as apples falling to the ground.

Bah, we did OK before Newton invented gravity. The problem is that apples don't want to float badly enough.

If you put climate-change deniers, Brexiters and conspiracy theorists into a venn diagram

You forgot cryptocurrency enthusiasts.

According to my crystal ball it will be a No Deal Brexit whether UK like it or not as EU is not moving an inch by sticking to their decision. i.e. no more negotiation.

PM Boris will inevitably stay as PM for at least 2 terms with the help from Brexit party in the north.

This time PM Boris will bulldoze his way to No Deal Brexit and Parliament cannot stop him. He knows if he does not Brexit then Conservative party will be doomed.

Cougar

Subscriber

The main reason is that leavers like to make shit up and present it as fact, as you’ve just ably demonstrated.

Ummm ... I think you will find the studys that Edukator is mentioning is made up shit being presented as fact.

This was one of THM’s favourite straw men, and if you read the thread you’re referring to you’ll see it debunked at length (by me amongst many others) months ago. No-one – well, OK, very few people – are suggesting that all leavers are idiots. Aside from anything else, this is demonstrably untrue. Rather, all the idiots voted for brexit. It’s a subtle but important difference.

So there you go. I think that clarified my description of the STW Brexit thread loons being a bunch of grandiose people with overinflated feelings of entitlement. Its pretty clear you beleive you are intellectually superior to everyone else with different views/opinions.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And you can argue that black is white all you like but if you look at post-referendum analysis there is a clear correlation between education levels and how people were likely to vote. In fact it’s the second greatest correlation after age. It saddens me somewhat that we’re still having to have this conversation, but here we are.

Arghhh ... you trying to use those studies again ... the ones you claim to have debunked previously I guess.

/inserts facepalm gif

Britain is not really a European country due to the reformation and empire, it doesn’t really belong in the EU in the first place – history matters

Nonsense. History shows us how closely related to the rest of Europe we are. We speak a Germanic language*, we've had German monarchs for 200 years. The closest language to ours is Frisian then Dutch; We were colonised by Italians, Germans, Danes, Norwegians, French; then we ended up ruling half of France; along the way our rulers we married into Spanish, German, French families; we took on French culture; we had a Dutch king; then even when we became stable we regularly allied with half of Europe to defeat aggressors even up to WWII.

And citing the reformation? Martin Luther was German, much of Europe is protestant.

So we are absolutely totally a European country at the very heart of Europe. Not only that, we are physically on the continent so they should be our closest trading partners for logistical, environmental and sheer bloody common sense reasons.

But no, we apparently think we're better. We're in for a bit of a come-down I think.

* we do actually have a few native British languages but ironically the little Englanders are usually queueing up to take the piss out of them, preferring their imported foreign tongue instead.

So still no actual pro Brexit argument from mooman?

This is why the populists are winning..

Claiming to know why people voted a certain way is as daft using it to add weight to your own opinion.

Indeed. Given only a third of the population eligible to vote actually voted to leave, good luck trying to find a consensus that's proportionate enough - and reasonable enough - to matter.

The truth is, a single politically motivated "democratic" event has shafted the UK irreparably and focused precious few resources on a cause without need.

And if anyone is trying to find solace or closure for this non-sensical farce on this forum, well, it ain't going to happen. Embrace the madness to come!

@molgrips, I don't think it is "nonsense" - the idea that Britain is "very much a European country at the heart of Europe" sounds more like nonsense to me.
I mentioned both the reformation and the empire, which taken together meant Britain's historical development took place somewhat independently of Europe. Indeed there are protestant nations in Europe (but not many in the EU), whilst Germany was never reformed to the extent of Britain - around half of Germans are Catholic.
If the reformation hadn't happened then I'd argue Britain would have remained a European country, as it had been beforehand. But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country. You mention how English was originally a Germanic language, well during the Empire, English then became a new language for millions of others in other countries, so these things mutate over time and after a while a new structure is developed.
As a result of this history, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

The fact he’s now having to look into Italian residency, changing his driving license and arranging health care he’s not so keen.

Well l live in mainland Europe (EU) and had to gain residence , change my licence ( it has the wrong address) and pay €80 per month healthcare anyway.

The free movement does what it says on the tin. To live and work is something different altogether. The fact that a Ukranian friend of mine managed to gain residency in exactly the same timeframe as me , an EU citizen says it all really.

Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

Percentage?

Percentage?

Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?
British 58%
English 49%
European 15%
Scottish 7%
Regional term (eg northerner, southerner, Highlander) 7%
City/county specific term (eg Londoner, Yorkshireman, Glaswegian, Geordie, Mancunian, Scouser) 7%
Irish/Northern Irish 4%
Welsh 4%
Local area/town-specific term 3%

Taken from the Guardian ( yes really!)

Hey @andypaul, whereabouts in Europe are you, and how easy was it to get your job out of interest.
I used to go out with an Italian and spent a lot of time there, but it was very unlikely I'd ever be able to secure a job. Most jobs in Italy go to sons/family/family friends, but I only have experience of Italy and appreciate it could be more open in other countries.

, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

Well that's just silly, what % of Brits identify as citizens of the commonwealth ?

The idea of the commonwealth in the UK is just a legacy of empire, Brits desperately trying to cling on to the idea of exceptionalism

It's made even more laughable by your average ukipers attitude towards former countries of the empire, while the EU has been a convenient bogeyman for the rw press & populist politicians. They'll dislike Indians, Nigerians etc even more.

There's a huge difference between you and your Ukranian friend, Andypaul. You are there as a right for as long as you wish, and he is there for as long as the country decides. As long as you abide by the very low conditions for remaining in a country you can stay, in simple terms as long as you can sustain yourself on the same terms as a local.

Britain is the best example of this. Workers from the EU just have to have to show they can support themselves beyond 3 months residency, workers from elsewhere have to earn:

You’ll usually need to be paid at least £30,000 per year or the ‘appropriate rate’ for the job you’re offered - whichever is higher

This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they'll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.

You say you have "residency". That's not "nationality" and in the event of no deal your host country can do just what it likes with you, just like your Ukranian friend right now. Life on an ejector seat.

This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they’ll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.

Don't agree. There is a huge recruitment drive from much of Eastern Europe, in many cases they are willing to match salaries of many EU workers that have left the country. This combined with the falling pound and a much lower cost of living at their country of origin means that many of them are now returning.
Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.
When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn't happen in their home countries.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ ... its why they were left to fester in the STW Brexit thread by themselves.

The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ …

'Facts' you seem unable to counter with any of your own ?

Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.

Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I've worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10.

Why did you move expats or immigrants?

Lifestyle, culture, climate, more relaxed working atmosphere, clients more likely to pay and less likely to go strategically bankrupt, better welfare state, good schools with less bullying, more chance of success without being born with a silver spoon in your gob, people not bothered about keeping up with the Joneses... .

When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn’t happen in their home countries.

Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it's harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others where it's easier like Germany and quite a few to Holland.

And the incessant casual xenophobia pumped out by Johnson & co is cited rather than multiculturalism ...

The ones that are staying are genuinely frustrated & worried about what Brexit means for the lives they've made here.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’

Can you give an example of a nonsensical fact presented on this thread?

Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I’ve worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10

Ok sure, but that's the opposite reason that a majority of the migrants from Eastern and Central Europe moved here from 2004. Their Salaries were multiplied by 5 or 6 and our currency was 50% higher than the Euro. Like l said it's economic.

Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it’s harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others like Germany and quite a few to Holland

But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?

I'm going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.
Interestingly this is now happening, as immigration from Russia, Ukraine and some parts of Asia are increasing in Eastern Europe. And those people are willing to work for much less.

And so it begins....

The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.

It's a crying shame losing the EU nurses. They are very well-trained, are excellent workers and some have become good friends.

Two years ago EU (mainly Spanish and Portuguese) nurses made up about 40% of the nursing staff on my ITU. Just this year alone 24 of them have left us and the UK. 24 experienced Critical Care nurses.

The trust I work for are and have been recruiting a large number of nurses from Southern India to replace the EU nurses, and whilst they are also excellent nurses many don't have ITU experience and as such it'll take approximately 18 months to get competencies signed off for majority of them.

In the last year the pressure has increased upon the remaining experienced nurses, due to having to support so many inexperienced nurses,and as a result some of those have either left or have reduced their hours considerably.

It's a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.

But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country.

But many other European countries had empires - it was the thing to do in those days, all the major powers were at it. The British Empire was a thing for what, 200 years, and only dominant for maybe 100. 50 years later it's receded almost to invisibility. We've been a part of Europe for far far longer than that. I believe the effect of other European interactions are still written all over our countries and the rest of Europe.

If the reformation hadn’t happened then I’d argue Britain would have remained a European country

Careful here - the separation of the CoE from Rome isn't quite the same thing as the Reformation in general.

But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?

Have they said that, where?

EU provides about 20% of UK grants, but it's less in cancer where I work, physics , astro, will be hit harder also things like archaeology. But the effects to retaining & recruiting staff have been big, it's some of the very best who've gone back.

I’m going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.

Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?
These scientists have lived , contributed & paid taxes here for years, many were very frustrated that they were denied a vote in the ref itself.
I'm sure EU workers across sectors feel exactly the same.
And France & spain, Netherlands, have similar immigrant amounts to us, Germany & ireland, considerably more

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population

It’s a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.

Only if you blot out those engaging in the mental gymnastics of cognitive dissonance or utter shut-down la la la can't hear etc. Also, many just literally couldn't give a rat's arse as long as they are 'getting their Brexit. All the death and destruction and loss will be met with the 'Dunkirk spirit' and Viz Comic-grade tabloidism with on-rotation calls to 'weather it out'. Along with the further blaming of the EU, of course. It's more like ironic masochism.

Anyway, got to break some eggs (NHS) to sell off the omelette.

Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?

I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.

I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.

So you just hang out with the racist ones ?😉

I would agree that a large majority of Eastern Europeans came to the UK around 2006/2007 were drawn because of financial reasons.

Working on site around that time in London and Essex myself and other chippies and tradesman were looking at around £230-£260 day rate.

The government allowed free movement of people from new EU countries (this is going from memory) whereas Germany and France put a limit on the numbers from the new states.

Our bosses were finding it harder and harder to bid on contracts and stay competitive.

The first trades to suffer were the painters. Low start up costs, I guess. Then it was the plasterers. And then it was the other trades.

I remember being on one site and the site's 110v tranny box was full of 110>240v converters with European plugs running from them. (240v generally banned on site for safety reasons.) there was a bit of a barmy with the site manager who basically said that at the prices they were charging he could afford to overlook it.

Whereas we were looking to earn upwards of 200 notes a day, the new influx of trades people were working for £60-£80 a day,but living five or six guys to a room.

Work dried up towards the end of 2007, in part because of the new, cheaper labour, but mostly because of the economic downturn.

I can't knock them for it. I'm not bitter.

You'd be foolish not to make the most of an opportunity to earn 4-5 times as much as do at home.

If you want to get angry, get angry about the government policy that allowed a massive influx of cheap labour to come onto the market.

I ended up leaving the UK in 2008 for Germany (GF is German) and thought I'd go there, learn some German and return to the UK when the economy picked up.

As it is, nigh on 12 years later, I'm not planning on returning but may well have to (application for citizenship has been turned down).

And with reference to Eastern Europeans being less not being so enamored with British multiculturalism, I would agree.

Their societies are almost exclusively white.

The further east you travel in Germany, the fewer dark skinned people you will see, and that goes for Turks, if which there are many in Germany. (**** me, casual racism is very common here in "progressive" Bavaria.)

Go across the border into Poland or Czech and you'll not see anyone who doesn't look Polish or Czech. Can't imagine going further west into the baltic states it's going to be much different.

But, hopefully familiarity breeds some more understanding, but generally people don't like what they don't know.

overinflated feelings of entitlement.

If you want to discuss "entitlement," you need not look any further than your own camp. We've had three years of hearing what leavers want, expect and demand, we won you lost get over it, with nary a care for what the other half might want. 17 million = the will of the people, 16 million = shut up and get over it. But something something democracy something, right?

andypaul

Percentage?

Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?

Thanks for responding but something seems to be lost in translation? How does the survey that you posted in any way show what percentage of Brits do not also consider themselves ‘European’? This is the problem with such surveys, you can often skew them how you wish. True, the Brits are as a whole the least likely Europeans to consider themselves European, with (2015, Eurobaroneter National and European Identity Survey) 64% of Brits considering themselves *only* in terms of ‘British’ nationality, yet the remaining 36% are not a small percentage?

Lots of valid discussion here about Brexit stuff,
with all the focus on economies,trade,finannce and across the world countries in political trmoil,civil unrest and war.. it all seem unsolvable which migh be a clue to the fact it is time for something completely different and probably of much more importance

Lets move onto other stuff?

It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.

https://www.clientearth.org/why-clientearth/

Lets move onto other stuff?

It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.

https://www.clientearth.org/why-clientearth/
/blockquote>

The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth's way to reduce them slowly ...

 

the empire

Which empire?

How many EU member nations used to have an empire?

Weird how often Brits seem to think that a history of empire is somehow unique to us.

Weird how many of them seem to think that we still have one.

then even when we became stable we regularly allied with half of Europe to defeat aggressors

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement…

But it “engaged” with the “continental” countries all over the globe, because… empires.

This whole “Britain historically isn’t a European country” meme can be debunked by anyone easily, it’s a dead end. The smart line to use is “not in the EU, but part of Europe”… because that can result in actual debate.

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.

Limited compared to what?

I mean there wasn't an EU, but I mean.. politically, times were different. My aim is to point out that physically, culturally and even ethnically we are intertwined with Europe* to a great extent. Politics are a thin and ephemeral layer on top of this. They are our siblings. Sometimes we fight, but we grew up together and that ties us.

* and other places obvs

The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth’s way to reduce them slowly …

Would be fine in a way. if that were the case

But it seems to be destructive to all life and systems to support any that may remain.