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Banger Barbara
Banger Barbara's Bum Butter- got a certain ring to it!
I have a bit of a thing about German pronunciation (German mum you see), e.g. Porsche, Braun. But I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to München/Munich.
Also I anglicise Paris when used on its own but not when used in Paris-Roubaix or Paris-Nice.
Calderdale used to be known as 'The Valley of the Welshmen', as it was occupied by people of Anglo Saxon heritage long after most people had interbred with the Norman invaders.
Just out of interest.....
Football Association of Wales use both "Cymru" and "Wales" in their english language comms interchangeably, and there have been a few stories about them officially becoming Cymru in international competitions rather than Wales.
Interestingly these initiatives aren't coming from Wales Govt , but from independent organisations within Wales.
Calderdale used to be known as ‘The Valley of the Welshmen’, as it was occupied by people of Anglo Saxon heritage long after most people had interbred with the Norman invaders.
Just out of interest…..
Elmet in Yorkshire was an old Welsh/proto brittonic fiefdom as well no? Strathclyde too (Ystrad Clud)
they’ve just decided to drop the English version of the name
Yep
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Valid question. I'm agnostic on it but Welsh Name / English Name isn't unreasonable - considering the vast majority of people in Wales are english speakers. But if we're going to use just the welsh (which is also cool) then people need to not get butthurt if some people choose to use the old name/something else.
@molgrips:
People from a linguistic heritage have a right to preserve it in the face of erasing by a dominant neighbour, don’t they?
This is also fair, but the renaming thing isn't a politically neutral act of language-protection, it's got a darker side too.
I wrote this on another thread regarding Snowdonia/Snowdon name change and it's relevant to repost IMO:
I live here [Snowdonia/Eryri] and, frankly, struggle to care.
Call it what you like. It’s a big bit of rock that’s fun to climb and a hilly area that’s nice to be in. Call it Fred and Billybobland tbh. If people get angry at you for it, then they’ve too much time on their hands.
I like the welsh names. But that’s all they are. Names. Changeable names. And the push to change names does have an ugly nationalist undertone, unfortunately. Look at Carnedd Uchaf, for example. There was a campaign to change the official name of the mountain to Carnedd Gwenllian – which happened in 2009.
Gwenllian was the daughter of the last Prince of Wales, imprisoned for live by Edward I in a priory in Linconshire (rather than killed, which would have been the usual form). Other than being imprisoned she did nothing of note – so the name change’s only purpose is a monument to show how shit “The English” are – and don’t you forget it!
There’s way too much of that going on in Wales at the moment. I agree with moves to keep a beautiful language alive and to enhance and preserve a culture. However, there’s a stench of horrible Welsh nationalism and I dislike the static “this is what it means to be Welsh and if you don’t conform to these arbitary ideals you’re not a real welshman” absolutism.
So I call it Snowdon and Snowdonia and I ain’t changing. Was born in Wales, live in Wales, am Welsh – and I don’t really care what anyone calls anything and there’s plenty of Welsh people who feel the same.
But each to their own – if you want to use Yr Wyddfa/Eryri then knock yourself out. But if you want to use Snowdon/Snowdonia you’re not really being culturally insensitive. You’re just not bowing to a group of angry nationalists.
But to be very clear – I’m not saying everyone who wants people to use Yr Wyddfa/Eryri is an angry nationalist. And I’m not even saying it’s a bad thing. But don’t be apologising if you call something the thing you’ve called it all your life out of misplaced guilt. 🙂
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @52.0458315,-3.1988286,3a,33.7y,265.35h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx9LLOerOmEdi_3tU9XzF8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The Sugar Loaf is actually Pen y Fal
Place names and how they are spelt and pronounce belong to the people who live there, no-one else. Just like peoples names. Ask Sara Cox what her name is for example. A welsh speaker would (and does) pronounce the village I live in completely differently than every local within the valley going back generations. They (the welsh speaker) are convinced theirs is the correct way to pronounce it. They are of course wrong.
Elmet in Yorkshire was an old Welsh/proto brittonic fiefdom as well no? Strathclyde too (Ystrad Clud)
Everywhere on the mainland was Brythonic at one point, only changing when invaders/settlers arrived.
I live here [Snowdonia/Eryri] and, frankly, struggle to care.
Congratulations, but other people apparently do.
I do wonder though, if Britain had lost the war would you be equally happy speaking German and not caring about English?
However, there’s a stench of horrible Welsh nationalism and I dislike the static “this is what it means to be Welsh and if you don’t conform to these arbitary ideals you’re not a real welshman” absolutism.
That's fair, but like most things there are probably many factors. There are probably some people being anti-English, others who just want to preserve their culture against overwhelming cultural imperialism*, and others who just think it's cool. I mostly see option 2 and 3 down here, but then it's pretty cosmopolitan by Welsh standards.
* this isn't deliberate (not these days, although it was for a long time), before you get angry, it just what happens and has always happened when one large culture starts to dominate another smaller one.
The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties… why not? And if not… why should they?
Well it reflects Wales's status as a bilingual country as opposed to England.
Interestingly these initiatives aren’t coming from Wales Govt , but from independent organisations within Wales.
I’m indifferent to the change at the moment (haven’t had time to ruminate), but I don’t think the decision to change the name of the NP has been made by the locals of the BB.
I can’t see any tangible benefits to the name change but, to be fair, I’m not a very cultured person.
For the record: I’m not Welsh, but live on the edge of the BB NP.
I’m indifferent to the change at the moment (haven’t had time to ruminate), but I don’t think the decision to change the name of the NP has been made by the locals of the BB.
I can’t see any tangible benefits to the name change but, to be fair, I’m not a very cultured person.
For the record: I’m not Welsh, but live on the edge of the BB NP.
It's the National Park organisation thats decided to change it's name - how they determined that name should be changed I have no idea but I doubt there was a referendum of people who live in the park to decide that. I'm sure there is a possibility of a very long thread somewhere about NP governance and what they should and shouldnt be doing do irrespective of what they decide to call themselves
I'm English, but it sounds fine to me; as a kid the family often went to Conwy, and that is how I've always said, and spelt it. On my regular travels to Wales (or should that be Cymru), spectating at rallies, the Welsh versions have become familiar; Yr Drenewydd, Llanfair ym Mualtt, Aberhonddu, etc
Due to where I live, the Welsh TV channels were available, so some Welsh programmes were often watched, and som lingo picked up, particularly Sgorio, and the phrases Croeso nol, Ail hanner, etc
I beg your pardon, I thought you may have been suggesting local NGO lobbying going on. Which I’m not aware of.
Also, the articles on the BB name change suggests the park authority also thought that the word ‘beacon’ wasn’t very low-carbon because of its association with having a bonfire on top.
I’m hoping that Sugar Loaf Mountain will get an name upgrade to reflect the need for healthier lifestyles.
Best not translate Bod an Deamhain in the Cairngorms or Cioch na h-oighe on Arran then.... 😱
I welcome Welsh making their own decisions and if that includes promoting / protecting a language, then that is fine.
I am hoping that like Scotland they can maintain the dual language approach.
I think it’s a lot of ink just to make English speaking people feel comfortable 🙂
FTFY
Dyfi is pronounced ‘Duh-vee’
There are lots of ways of pronouncing it but only one correct way (which isn’t tricky).
I heard an English chap refer to Betws y Coed as ‘Betsy’ the other day. That made me twitch and I’m an englishman living in a quite anglicised bit of Wales!
Easy if you know how. If you don't then what are you supposed to do other than use your best guess?
Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village? Would you actually want that?
I'd expect to see a sign that the majority of the local populace can pronounce. I live in An Leargaidh Ghallda, ****ed if I even know where to begin with that. I grew up in An Truthail / An t-Sròn (because they can't decide which it is) despite the anglicised name being Troon which comes from a Pictish/Brythonic cognate, trwyn if you're Welsh. I realise this is an entirely seperate issue since Wales seems fairly uniform in it's language roots but up here it's just a pattern of one group claiming one "right" language after the other, ignoring the fact that Gaelic was in invasive language itself (brought by christian missionaries) and that in various places the correct name could be old Norse, Pictish, Northumbrian, Cumbric or any other language I've forgotten (going back to the early middle ages).
Deutchland
It's Deutschland.
that’s more to do with typing ineptitude than lack of knowledge.
No more difficult to bring up CharMap than it is to spent 10 minutes learning Welsh. Apparently.
Nice to meet you Charlie.. from now on everyone outside of your neighbourhood shall call you “Banger Barbara”.
Oooooh that's gonna stick.
No more difficult to bring up CharMap
On a Mac... just hold down a letter... try a vowel... ooo... look at all those choices...
A quote from the Guardian link earlier:
"Welsh names are beautiful"
There might well be good reasons for changing the name but that can't possibly be one of them.
They want to get the French on the case if beautiful place names is what they are after.
I am hoping that like Scotland they can maintain the dual language approach.
I'd just like a workable pronunciation for Rhubodach (I've been led to believe the ch is silent so I'm still none the wiser on how to pronounce any Gaelic). Like I said, I'd happily drop some English names if they just made it easier for folk to pronounce things properly.
Also, that Scalpay Bridge sign is awful, did nobody tell them never to spell thing in all upper case?
On a Mac… just hold down a letter… try a vowel… ooo… look at all those choices…
Pff, tell me you don't Unicode without saying you don't Unicode.
Pff, tell me you don’t Unicode without saying you don’t Unicode.
UTF-8 off! Offering real world typing tips, that's all.
Re hill names tending to the literal, I do wonder if to a speaker of the language they're all named in, life's a bit less poetic? I mean Saddleback is a bit a of rubbish name though I guess that is what it looks like and a bit better than chair-top hill, but neither come close to Blencathra for a bit of magic.
Also, round where I live it would all be boggy hill, wet hill, very damp hill, boggy bog etc etc
No more difficult to bring up CharMap than it is to spent 10 minutes learning Welsh. Apparently.
Well, I just googled it and it said to bring up the command line and type charmap. But I don't have a command line on a chromebook.
Apparently I can type ctrl-shift-u and I get unicode, but then I need to know the number. And on a phone?
And on a phone?
Êvén eàsïêr, jūßt long press the relevant letter. Gets boring quite quickly, but your autocorrect will soon learn.
They want to get the French on the case if beautiful place names is what they are after.
Like those pesky Normans did all over the England?
Even more pro tip for accents on phones - add another language to your keyboard, then you can switch to (say) French and autocorrect will put the accents in for you, you don't even have to remember where they go!
did all over the England
I don't think they did TJ, there are remarkably few places with French names in England. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more French place names in the Channel Island than there is in the whole of England.
Well, I just googled it and it said to bring up the command line and type charmap. But I don’t have a command line on a chromebook.
Apparently I can type ctrl-shift-u and I get unicode, but then I need to know the number. And on a phone?
It's almost as if I predicted such an answer...
UTF-8 off! Offering real world typing tips, that’s all.
Lol, I wouldn't have the first idea how to pull it off on a Mac anyway so it was appreciated. It's just miles quicker to Alt-0176 on windows when writing an engineering report than constantly mess about selecting and copying.
Betws y Coed as ‘Betsy’ the other day
perfectly acceptable... that's how i've always known it.
There's context to these things. I mean, England has tried in the past systematically to stamp out Welsh and Welshness. Initially out of military aggression, then to suppress insurgency and eradicate any kind of threat, then later out of misguided kindness. Then when mineral wealth was discovered the south was carved up and exploited by industrialists (who weren't all English to be fair but the money didn't exactly stay in Wales did it?) which helped eradicate culture further, then in modern times the place is treated with derision and mockery pretty much all the time whilst indigenous culture dwindles because it's simply smaller, see above.
People get really worked up on here about the Americanisation of the UK don't they? Well imagine that, but much worse and for centuries.
I don’t think they did TJ, there are remarkably few places with French names in England.
Nope @tjagain is spot on, while they don't maybe sound French, Hartlepool, Henley on Thames, Stanton Lacy, Newport Pagnell are all derived from Norman French, and there's the more obvious ones like Chapel en le Frith, Chester le Street. Lots of them have been Anglicised over the years fo'shure, but they're certainly all over the place.
I dislike the static “this is what it means to be Welsh and if you don’t conform to these arbitary ideals you’re not a real welshman” absolutism.
You dislike absolutism? did make me chuckle.
I like it, the name sounds and looks much better than before.
What's more interesting is that this is part of a recent acceleration in the journey to much greater devolution in the short term and independence in the long term. Covid, Brexit and Tory misrule are really doing a number on the United Kingdom.
Betws y Coed as ‘Betsy’ the other day
What's it supposed to be?
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford
Only if you don't know what colour the boat house is
Lots of them have been Anglicised over the years fo’shure,
Well they are not French names then, they are names "derived from Norman French", as you put it.
I am talking about French names - like what they have in France.
Edit: 'Henley on Thames' a French name 😃😆🤣
The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties… why not? And if not… why should they?
As one of the 83% non Welsh speaking Welsh having road signs in English is pretty handy. The number of Welsh speakers who can't comprehend English is such a small number it's impossible to but a statistic to it. No reason whatever for signs over the border to be bi lingual.
there are remarkably few places with French names in England
Got one here in S.Wales Fleur-de-lis originally lys. The village was given the name by French Huguenots who settled there escaping persecution.Not without controversy though, some people feel it should revert back to its perhaps original name of Trelyn.
The actual locals though just call it Flower,never by anyone
blodeuyn.
Hart Le Pool, Chapel en le Frith, there's Belvoir, Beaulieu, Ashby de la Zouch.
how more French d'you want?
The fact that over time they become something else (like Snowdon perhaps?) doesn't mean that Normans didn't go around re-naming places, which they very much did.
What’s it supposed to be?
W makes a sound like oo in book (unless you're from wherever it is that makes book rhyme with look). So with that in mind, it's bet oos. Oe makes an oy sound. So it's like coyd. And the y on its own makes a u sound as in shut, if you're not from Northern England.
Coed means wood, and betws means like a clearing. So quite an evocative name really.
The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties… why not? And if not… why should they?
As one of the 83% non Welsh speaking Welsh having road signs in English is pretty handy. The number of Welsh speakers who can’t comprehend English is such a small number it’s impossible to but a statistic to it. No reason whatever for signs over the border to be bi lingual.
Isn't that just the same old argument against bilingual signs in Wales rehashed? Border areas in England also using bilingual signs would just be more friendly and welcoming... in the same way as signs in Wales keeping English on them as.
how more French d’you want?
Well obviously there are a few but as I said "there are remarkably few places with French names in England".
Edit : No sod it, it's not remarkable at all, why would there be many French place names in England? French isn't the spoken language. And France doesn't have a load of English place names, unsurprisingly.
W makes a sound like oo in book (unless you’re from wherever it is that makes book rhyme with look). So with that in mind, it’s bet oos. Oe makes an oy sound. So it’s like coyd. And the y on its own makes a u sound as in shut, if you’re not from Northern England.
Doesn't book always rhyme with look regardless of accent, just they don't always rhyme with luck (or shut)?
Prior to this thread I'd have said "bets ee coyd." So it's closer to betuss uh coyd?
Yup, Betsy.
Exactly 🤣
Betsy Co-ed sounds like the first one to be killed in a 1980s slasher movie.
No sod it, it’s not remarkable at all, why would there be many French place names in England? French isn’t the spoken language. And France doesn’t have a load of English place names, unsurprisingly.
Norman French was the language of government here for quite some time. Still spoken in the UK parliament, and by the Crown, when making and passing laws.
Betws y Coed as ‘Betsy’ the other day
perfectly acceptable… that’s how i’ve always known it.
er, likewise though I'll now pretend I've always said bet oos coyd. Actually maybe I won't was no one will know what I'm on about.
Thing is, in France I will obv call their capital "Paree" but in here in Yorkshire it's Paris. With a hard "a", a very hard one. So it's staying Betsy co-educational for the now.
But I'm totally happy with Yr Wydffa, Bannau Brycheiniog, or Sagarmāthā/Chomolungma for that matter. Just prepared to be corrected on my (mis)pronunciation.
Both the Welsh and Scots Gaelic names are pretty meaningless to me and I can't pronounce them. Thats my problem and no reason just to have English place names
Norman French was the language of government here for quite some time. Still used in the UK parliament, and by the Crown, when making and passing laws.
I read that ^^ before I read the poster's name, I thought to myself "who the **** is arguing the toss with me over whether French is spoken in England", I then saw the user name and it suddenly made sense! 😂
Norman French is central to our history as a nation, and one of many influences on our crazy but interesting collection of place names. Makes me want to dig out The Meaning of Liff again.
Loads of "english" words are actually corrupted french are they not? "english" is basically a mix of french and german with a bit of norse?
Sorry for triggering the diversion down this road
Oh - and can I say Newton le Willows and Adwick le street?
I prefer ‘Billy’
Billy the mountain.
It's the same name. Nothing to see here.
I laughed at the reason given on the radio this am. I'll paraphrase.
There are no longer beacons on the hills so that is outdated. We're naming them after a 5th century king.
There’s context to these things. I mean, England has tried in the past systematically to stamp out Welsh and Welshness. Initially out of military aggression
Not really.
The first case where Welsh was suppressed were in the various laws passed by Henry VIII which were intended to simplify the Welsh legal and administration system and especially to remove the power of the marcher lords who had been a thorn in the side of the monarchy for many years.
Its worth remembering the Tudor dynasty was started by his father who was born and raised in Wales as a member of the ancient Tudor family of Penmynydd, Anglesey.
Arguably the battle of Bosworth was a Welsh invasion of England (with support from French mercenaries and an annoyed English aristocrat).
Doesn’t book always rhyme with look regardless of accent, just they don’t always rhyme with luck (or shut)?
Eer.. yes.. I suppose that's true :). Some people might rhyme book with spook and some might not. I don't think anyone says spuck do they?
So it’s closer to betuss uh coyd?
Yes that's not far off.
The first case where Welsh was suppressed were in the various laws passed by Henry VIII
Wales itself was pretty heavily suppressed militarily from Edward I on though.
Coed means wood, and betws means like a clearing
Actually, Betws is prayer house, so prayer house in the wood really.
I know plenty of people who call it "Betsy". Who cares. I don't and it's it's my nearest town with pubs 🙂
North Wales is Scousers and Mancs' playground and plenty of them have taken a stab at pronouncing Welsh names and gotten laughed at - so have, quite reasonably, settled on calling Welsh names whatever they like. It's a common enough usage that if someone says Betsy (without the Coed) then most people know exactly where they're talking about - it's so common even I've used it as jokey slang in conversation.
If people get upset at that then they're being far too precious IMO.
Wales itself was pretty heavily suppressed militarily from Edward I on though.
600+ castles tho.
Come to Wales. We've got castles out of the kazoo! 😀
Coed means wood, and betws means like a clearing
Does it, weird.. thwaite means clearing in a wood or meadow as well, from old Norse I believe. That's why so many places the Vikings settled in the uplands have that name. Most Vikings settled peacefully and the only land available was the uplands.
Norman French was the language of government here for quite some time. Still spoken in the UK parliament, and by the Crown, when making and passing laws.
But it was still "out of order" to use Cymraeg in the House of Commons until 2017
Brecon Beacons: Park to use Welsh name Bannau Brycheiniog
But Why?
It's the proper name.
It means I can have even more fun hearing my English friends trying to say it correctly 🤣
I'll still call it what I've called it all my life though: Home.
Re hill names tending to the literal, I do wonder if to a speaker of the language they’re all named in, life’s a bit less poetic?
Always reminds me of anyone in the motoring world saying Ferrari has a certain Ring to it and being poetic. Like hell it does, it's the Italian equivalent of Jones, Williams and Davies. Common as muck!
Davies
It's surprising how many can't say that right and it's their own bloody name!
Surely the ultimate in pretentiousness is claiming your own personal pronunciation of your surname?
It’s surprising how many can’t say that right and it’s their own bloody name!
see my post earlier in the thread. Who has the right to tell someone else that their way of saying their name/place of origin is being pronounced wrongly.
Does it
Apparently not I was wrong.
Newton le Willows
For clarity, it's pronounced "bit of a dump"
I think it’s a great idea but laughed when I heard someone say it was better for the environment to drop the name beacon. That just makes no sense at all. Who would’ve thought solving the climate crisis would be so simple! All this panicking and we just need to change some names 😀
Who has the right to tell someone else that their way of saying their name/place of origin is being pronounced wrongly.
No one but I can still give an internal chuckle!
Its like when Austin Healey or some such other twerp English rugby pundit can't get Jonathan Davies name right despite him having over 100 international caps or not being able to understand that Alun Wyn Jones surname is Jones despite him having 150 caps or whatever.
Anyway I'll leave it at that as I simply cannot get my head round why anyone cares what other people call the Beacon Beacons
Who would’ve thought solving the climate crisis would be so simple!
It isn't, they haven't yet managed to ditch the beacon in Ditchling Beacon.
Presumably they desperately searching for an appropriate South Saxon word.
W makes a sound like oo in book (unless you’re from wherever it is that makes book rhyme with look).
When doesn't one word ending in 'ook' rhyme with another? Book, look, spook, took, sook, nook etc.
Or does someone pronounce it as 'unk' sometimes??
When doesn’t one word ending in ‘ook’ rhyme with another? Book, look, spook
Book, look, cook, crook all rhyme. Spook does not.
It did according to most of the older Mancunians in my family!
How are you pronouncing spook so it doesn't rhyme with book?
Must admit, I like the sound of Brycheiniog more than Yr Wyddfa,
How are you pronouncing spook so it doesn’t rhyme with book?
With a long oo as in poo
Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village? Would you actually want that?
it would help if you were heading to Troyes
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
With a long oo as in poo
</div>
same as book then in some accents 🙂
Book, look, cook, crook all rhyme. Spook does not.
How are you pronouncing spook so it doesn’t rhyme with book?
With a long oo as in poo
Do you pronounce water as wootah? I know it's at the end of the M4 but I didn't think it counted as home counties. Those words all rhyme without exception.
This is like the Craig/Greg thing with my Irish room mate all over again...
Her Majesty [Gawd rest her soul] would never have pronounced "book" the same as "spook". And she knew how speak proper English.
In case of "water" the correct pronunciation is "wah'er"
As in, "de wah'er in ma jorka dun taste like wha it oar eh"
Spose I’d better starting learning Welsh. In order to get along with the 17% in Wales who speak it.
A good friend retired to Eryri and learned Welsh after a working life spent in East Anglia. Very impressive watching him chatting in the cafe at Dolgellau.
I get some strange looks when ordering Pirelli tyres around here too!