You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Brecon Beacons: Park to use Welsh name Bannau Brycheiniog
But Why? It seems to me like Coke Cola changing its name to Shitty Sugar Syrup.
If it was called Edward Colston Hills I would get the change.
Ps I almost live in Wales, straddle the border
Things change
The world turns
Stuff like this ebbs & flows
The empire is over
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
Why not? It is in Wales after all. Did you complain about Snowdon becomimg Yr Wyddfa?
Well, its a welsh mountain range and there doesn't seem to any evidence they were ever used as beacons. Did you even read the press release?
I think its entirely legitimate to use welsh language to name welsh places - its not as it they are forcing people to use the name, merely "hoping it will catch on"
It's in Wales, they can use Welsh names for things. AFAIK they've had the welsh name on their site since forever, they've just decided to drop the English version of the name.
Which seems fair enough.
More people are speaking Welsh in Wales, national identity I guess, and maybe trying to stop foreigners from England visiting because they can’t pronounce the names?
Probably makes sense in more ways than one to the Welsh.
Twodogs Snowdon didnt become Yr Wyddfa, Yr Wyddfa became Snowdon. These areas are in Wales a land where we have our own culture language and traditional names which say a lot about our cultural history for example near me we have cwm cneifion (cwm of the shearing, in spring its full of cotton grass) which the victorians changed to Namless Cwm. I know which i prefer.
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Its a conspiracy by the road sign industry
They get paid by the letter
Twodogs Snowdon didnt become Yr Wyddfa
Well yes, obvs, but I was referencing this
In April 2021 a motion was put forward by Gwynedd Councillor John Pughe Roberts for Snowdon to be called by its Welsh name Yr Wyddfa in all official use, and for Snowdonia to similarly be known only as Eryri.
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Cos one isn't Welsh and makes no sense?
I think it's great; no reason not to do it, many reasons to do it and they're only hoping that time will drive full acceptance of it.
Crack on and call it the Brecon Beacons if you want, but over time you might change.
No doubt Chevy will be along soon to blame angry nationalists.
More people are speaking Welsh in Wales,
Not actually true, and in SE Wales where I was born and live the figure is much lower. But there's a vocal Welsh speaking minority who think the speak for everyone Welsh person. At the end of the day
Bannau Brycheiniog or Brecon Beacons makes no difference to me the're the same mountains that I love to visit every chance I get.
A
Spose I'd better starting learning Welsh. In order to get along with the 17% in Wales who speak it.
As for climate change, alot coal came out of a South Wales and they are claiming a brazier is a menance and warrants a hugely expensive branding change.
Anyway gives Martin Sheen a mouthpiece for his rhetoric.
Each to a countries own.
You don't need to learn the language to learn how to pronounce words in the Welsh alphabet. Welsh pronounciation is quite regular, so if you understand the rules you have an excellent chance of pronouncing words correctly even if you dont know what they mean. I have never learnt to speak more than very basic Welsh, but I can pronounce names very well.
I guess they tried to come up with an English equivalent but thought the better of "Brychan's Knobs"...
Should all the mountains in Scotland have their English names or the Gaelic ones? the english translations are pretty dull. "Big mountain" "Red mountain" etc etc Oh - and even in the English names they often use Scots words - Paps of Jura would translate as Jura's Tits 🙂
I do struggle to pronouce the Gaelic names but thats on me. Thats the mountains name since the mapping was done
I have never learnt to speak more than very basic Welsh, but I can pronounce names very well.
You are doing better than me then. I live in an English village with a Welsh name and I still apparently cant pronounce it properly for the Welshys.
Not actually true, and in SE Wales where I was born and live the figure is much lower. But there’s a vocal Welsh speaking minority who think the speak for everyone Welsh person.
Sorry must be because I live on the edge of North/Mid Wales and it appears to be growing around here.
warrants a hugely expensive branding change.
They've always been known by the Welsh name, as like most things (see maps at every Welsh trail centre) in Wales all the promotional stuff is in both languages, They English name has been dropped to make the Welsh Name more prominent.
I don't see why folks have an issue with it, after all, if I say Cadair Idris, everyone knows which mountain I'm referring to, no one bemoans using that name and wonders what wrong with calling it Idris' Chair.
Paps of Jura would translate as Jura’s Tits
Haha, there's mountain range in USA called Grand Tetons. (Big Tits) Although they look nothing like tits,
The mountain Bod an Deamhain in the Cairngorms* literally translates as The demons (devils) penis but the mapmakers thought that was a bit racy so it's shown as The Devil's Point.
* Yeah, and the Cairngorms should really be called by their Gaelic name of Am Monadh Ruadh, as they're typically red, not blue (gorm).
Most/all places have names in the local language, and some of them have alternate names in other languages. Local references will use the local language. Try asking an Italian where Florence is.
We're pretty used to it, I'm sure everyone will cope.
In order to get along with the 17% in Wales who speak it.
I wonder what %age [i]only[/i] speak Welsh? (And are now going, "OOOH! I wondered where the Bannau Brycheiniog has got to!" (but in Welsh, obvs))
Why not keep both rather than dropping one?
Why keep both? Loads of places in Wales have only a Welsh name - most of them in fact. And places in England usually only have English names, and you never see Welsh names on English signposts. Places in England have Welsh names because they are in fact British names from before the Saxons came.
I wonder what %age only speak Welsh?
Doesn't matter. People from a linguistic heritage have a right to preserve it in the face of erasing by a dominant neighbour, don't they?
Should all the mountains in Scotland have their English names or the Gaelic ones? the english translations are pretty dull. “Big mountain” “Red mountain” etc etc
Translation or transliteration?
Most mountains are known by their anglicised names as it is, it's not English as such but it is a hell of a lot easier to pronounce if you don't know Gaelic. Oh, and FWIW a lot of that "Gaelic" is actually Pictish or Brittonic, just to make things more complicated.
That said...
Most/all places have names in the local language, and some of them have alternate names in other languages. Local references will use the local language. Try asking an Italian where Florence is.
I've never found Fiorenze, München, Köln or Warszawa particulalry difficult, maybe it's to do with language distance? Brittonic languages are pretty damn distant from English after all. Maybe a better compromise would be changing the anglicised names to reflect their proper counterparts and people can actually see how the language structure works as they go.
As a non-Welsh person I try to pronounce things correctly but always fall foul of the Welsh language schisms
If you got to Rhayader the enjoy the Elan Valley, the Northern people pronounce it very differently to the South and if you go to Ceridigion they've got another set of rules. It's really confusing!!
Most mountains are known by their Anglicised names as it is, it’s not English as such but it is a hell of a lot easier to pronounce if you don’t know Gaelic.
That's the approach I'd prefer to see for Wales. Use the Welsh name, but "sub-titled" with an approximate English pronunciation. That would actually be educational for us who don't speak Welsh.
That would actually be educational for us who don’t speak Welsh.
You don't have to speak Welsh to pronounce names properly. It's really very easy, a 10 minute job to read up which letters are different from English.
It's a 10 minute job most folk won't do whereas they would pick it up as they go along with my idea.
That’s the approach I’d prefer to see for Wales. Use the Welsh name, but “sub-titled” with an approximate English pronunciation. That would actually be educational for us who don’t speak Welsh.
Haha you got in before me whilst I was still editing.
Yeah, I think there are good practical reasons for going that way, not least being able to tell someone where you are going when going into the hills.
I think it's a lot of ink just to make English people feel comfortable 🙂
I'm all for it. Granted, it'll be a struggle and take some effort to learn correct pronunciations, but the English have had it very easy for a long time. We go abroad on the assumption that everyone will more or less speak English and we put very little effort into learning the local language, so maybe more change close to home will make us better global citizens.
(Yes, I know there's huge sweeping generalisations in the above - It's a personal reflection on how lazy I've been when travelling in the past)
I'm not even English 😂
For amusement shall we refer to “Bannau Brycheiniog” as the British name and “Brecon Beacons” as the name used by English immigrants to Britain.
Just to wind a few folk up 😉
Just look at how many different ways people pronounce Dyfi.
On a slightly more serious note. We had no end of problems getting a vehicle recovery recently as all the call centres were in England not Wales and couldnt understand the Welsh names even when we spelt them out.
We ended up using What Three Words.
Can you imagine the number of call outs to Snowdon in the future when the casualty will have died before someone understands that they are on Yr Wyddfa
It's OK, we can strike back and reclaim Pen Y Ghent, whatever the hell that means.
Anyone else worried about the preponderance of Norse-derived names in the Lakes? 🙂 Bloody Vikings, coming over here, naming our hills!
Dyfi is pronounced 'Duh-vee'
There are lots of ways of pronouncing it but only one correct way (which isn't tricky).
I heard an English chap refer to Betws y Coed as 'Betsy' the other day. That made me twitch and I'm an englishman living in a quite anglicised bit of Wales!
Apparently there is some debate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen-y-ghent
Also, the articles on the BB name change suggests the park authority also thought that the word 'beacon' wasn't very low-carbon because of its association with having a bonfire on top.
I'm hoping that Sugar Loaf Mountain will get an name upgrade to reflect the need for healthier lifestyles.
I’m all for it. Granted, it’ll be a struggle and take some effort to learn correct pronunciations, but the English have had it very easy for a long time. We go abroad on the assumption that everyone will more or less speak English and we put very little effort into learning the local language, so maybe more change close to home will make us better global citizens.
You see, this is a view I don't share. I love languages. I can generally do pretty well in German, English and French. In the past I have learned sufficient Turkish, Italian and Tzech to make myself understood as needed. I will totally make the effort to use local pronunciations when speaking the local language. And I fully support the idea that an agency based in Wales could use the Welsh names.
But when posting on an English language forum in the English language I don't understand why I wouldn't use English words.
I don’t understand why I wouldn’t use English words.
There's a difference between English words and English names for non-English places.
But mainly, you can call them the Beacons if you like, the story is simply about the Park Authority's own labelling.
I live in an English village with a Welsh name and I still apparently cant pronounce it properly for the Welshys.
From what I remember of where you live (I'm not stalking you! I just remember you posting previously) I grew up nearby (and still have family there) and there are a few Welsh named places that even local Welsh people don't agree on how to pronounce...
Can you imagine the number of call outs to Snowdon in the future when the casualty will have died before someone understands that they are on Yr Wyddfa
I personally credit the local mountain rescue teams with a bit more nouse.
Back to the OP:
Brychan Brycheiniog was born in the 5th century, John Leland referred to the "Banne Brekeniauc" in the 1530s and it was the Brecknock Beacons in the 1800s. The park has only been established since the 50s. The "old" name is merely a blip in long history.
I admit all this confuses me.
Is Brecon also being renamed (reverted to) Brecknock?
Do we still refer to the "Black Mountains", "Central Beacons", "Western Beacons"?
Have the mountain rescue team names changed?
Is anyone outside the North using Eryr instead of Snowdonia in everyday chat?
Its a conspiracy by the road sign industry
They get paid by the letter
Makes you think, but may require your own research.....
I'm all for it, I grew up in North Wales and English was only taught as a subject. Maths, science, geography, history, dinosaurs, food-tech, woodworking, PE and whatever else were all taught in Welsh using the Welsh words for things and it was the language spoken in most public places, shops, libraries, etc. It was only really 'ex-pat' English that spoke English as a default.
And the Welsh names are so much nicer and more descriptive than English ones. You can imagine someone hundreds of years ago saying to their mate "You know, the houses up by Saint Afan's chapel near the woods" and the name stuck.
Obviously if you don't speak Welsh it's just incomprehensible gibberish with too many vowels and hyphens only spoken to make you feel uncomfortable in the pub 🤷♂️
I admit all this confuses me.
Is anyone outside the North using Eryr instead of Snowdonia in everyday chat?
Does it matter? No one apart from the English call Germany, Germany. Does anyone outside Deutchland call Deutchland, Deutchland? Should the Deutchland government re-brand itself German because only* people inside Germany use the term Deutchland?
*do your own research, maybe other countries do use that name.
These days you can go to jail for calling it Ayers Rock
Is Brecon also being renamed (reverted to) Brecknock?
It's Aberhonddu according to the road signs.
I'm with Scotroutes on this.
It makes sense to me to translate regular text like "ARAF" painted on roads, but I always found it weird that we Anglicise names. Some are lumpy to English tongues but we just need to know how to make a reasonable fist of pronouncing them. Pen-Y-Bont isn't difficult, why do we need "Bridgend"? Back in French lessons at high school I was taught that my name in French was "Alain" - no, that's simply not my name, any more than it's Allan or Allen.
True that!
The city of Munich in Germany.... is not called Munich... Its Munchen.
I don't understand why we don't use the local correct original names.
Hello, my name is Charlie.
Nice to meet you Charlie.. from now on everyone outside of your neighbourhood shall call you "Banger Barbara".
Was "Snowdon" a tourist marketing thing. If you can't pronounce it who will visit it? So I just googled that and...
"The English name for Snowdon is derived from the Old English 'snow dun' meaning 'snow hill'. There are references to this as far back as the 11th century."
You can imagine someone hundreds of years ago saying to their mate “You know, the houses up by Saint Afan’s chapel near the woods” and the name stuck.
At some point in the 18th C nearly everyone in the UK outside the major tows and cities went from that to suddenly living at 11 St Afan's Chapel Lane. The really weird thing about the change was it went almost unremarked upon.
I've never quite got the anglicisation of some names but not others - as above Firenze, or Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce. I understand if the alphabet is totally different (such as names of Chinese or Russian cities) then some sort of phonetic version is needed and I'm not sure if welsh or gaelic for example comes into that category or not with the same letters but different sounds.
Why's the Cathedral in Paris Notre Dame instead of Our Lady?
Football twitter will be apoplectic when Abertawe and Caerdydd are playing.
It’s Aberhonddu according to the road signs.
Thanks. Still says Brecon as well though, yes?
I've always been a strong advocate of dual language signs. And in theory I'd be up for more Welsh names only... but in practice... I admit that moves in that direction confuse me, and no doubt many others.
Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce. I understand if the alphabet is totally different
Well, you've spelt Koln wrong, and changed the pronunciation in doing so.
Its Munchen.
No it isn't.
I spent the first few years of my life near München, still call it that, but don't bridle at Munich.
If you moved there, you'd change how you refer to it tout de suite, but casual international use is fine with everyone really, isn't it?
is not called Munich… Its Munchen.
Pfft...where's the umlaut, Babs?
that's more to do with typing ineptitude than lack of knowledge.
. Pen-Y-Bont isn’t difficult, why do we need “Bridgend”?
Cos I'd have had nowhere to go school otherwise 😂
Comins Coch
What does that translate to in English 🤭
I personally credit the local mountain rescue teams with a bit more nouse.
yeah - they will probably ask if you are on Snowdon?
I’ve never quite got the anglicisation of some names but not others – as above Firenze, or Koln, or Praha, or Den Hague are hardly difficult to pronounce.
Yeah it goes back a long way, to when people (presumably sailors largely) were uneducated and they couldn't be expected to even read or write the places they were going to or buying stuff from never mind pronounce them correctly. It's also quite common as significant places in most countries have localised names in other countries e.g. Londres and Édimbourg. However Anglo-washing everywhere in Wales just to make life easier for English, in the current climate seems a bit off. Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village? Would you actually want that?
What puzzles me a bit is that whilst Paris is an obvious English pronunciation based on the written name, Munich doesn't really sound like Muenchen. There must be a story behind that.
EDIT and there is..
Big important places tend to get named separately by the cultures that interact with them by trade etc. Leaving aside the post-colonial issue, I don't have a problem with this.
Pen-Y-Bont isn’t difficult, why do we need “Bridgend”?
A lot of the English names for Welsh places are adopted from the Viking names e.g. Swansea, Fishguard. Either the English historically found them easier to say or they adopted them from their interactions with Danes.
Big important places tend to get named separately by the cultures that interact with them
Interesting, apparently Shrewsbury was known as Amwythig in Wales long after the Anglicisation of the town and it's different to the supposed ancient British name of Pengwern, according to Wikipedia, which suggests that it acquired the later name locally within Wales whilst it was being called Shrewsbury by its inhabitants.
It’s also quite common as significant places in most countries have localised names in other countries e.g. Londres and Édimbourg.
Is that not equally daft? The city name is London, not Londres. We might mispronounce Paris as paris rather than par-ee (and don't get me started on the US interpretation of Notre Dame) but it's still Paris.
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford,
Would you go to France and expect a map with crappy anglophone approximations under every town and village?
No. But having Breton and French, to give one of many examples, on roadsigns and maps is helpful.
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford
Plenty of places "this side" of the border could do with having dual language signage.
Is that not equally daft?
I guess that's for you to decide. I suspect it has historically more justifiable roots than modern day mangling of e.g. Betws y Coed.
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea...like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
Many of us mispronounce Henffordd as Hereford
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
If it's important to know Where TF you are, eg for a rescue, there's a really simple method that sidesteps most language and pronunciation problems.
Use a grid reference. It's really not difficult. A 6 digt number is all that is required.
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
One near one of my old primary schools IIRC... but that's at the end of town where Henffordd actually was.
EDIT: Google shows me nothing entering Hereford itself... just signs to Hereford/Henffordd from within Wales. Those signs also being used in England would be fine with me... why should dual signage stop at the border?
Use a grid reference. It’s really not difficult. A 6 digt number is all that is required.
but that is beyond the ability of most people. I tried that approach in Wales last week and their computers said no. Three What Words was the only thing that worked.
Should just get away with all place names everywhere in the world and use Three What Words instead ! Problem solved
Should just get away with all place names everywhere in the world and use Three What Words instead ! Problem solved
What Three Words is also localised.
why should dual signage stop at the border?
Lol that would go down well!
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea…like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
loogah-baroogah
I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of seeing Henffordd on a road sign..?
pretty sure there's quite a few on the Powys side of the border
Welsh "exonyms"
A lot appear to be translations rather than transliterations eg Caer*.
Having a pronunciation guide on signs to help foreigners is a great idea…like they do in Loughborough and Keswick
I was once walking through York Castle Museum and overheard an American couple talking about Knaresborough – pronouncing it 'Ker-Naress-Berr-Ooh'
Lol that would go down well!
That says something though. The Welsh helpfully keeping English on roadsigns should be reciprocated in border counties... why not? And if not... why should they?