[Closed] Breaking up the Union. What would it mean for the constituent countries?

As for Scandinavia, have you never heard of the Vikings?

So the Scandinavian people are today enjoying fruits of the Vikings ?

I'm glad that you said it was me who's talking bollox.......I would have had trouble working that one out.

Some questions:

[b]Elfin[/b] - out of interest, where did you find that chart?

[b]Duckman[/b] - 'that chart is well known', where have you seen it?

[b]TJ[/b] - I'm not sure what you do, but please tell me its not related to economic development...

TJ - I'm not sure what you do

😕

You've been here 2 years and you come out with that ?

Have you never noticed TJ before ?

Am I loosing my touch Ernie? or just loosing touch?

Elfin - out of interest, where did you find that chart?

On tinternet, innit? 😀

Based on figures from HM Treasury though so should be reasonably accurate.

So the Scandinavian people are today enjoying fruits of the Vikings ?

No, you said this:

Do you really think that people from European countries without empires, such as Scandinavia, fared any worse ?

So I gave the Vikings as an example of Scandinavian Imperialism. That's all.

So I gave the Vikings as an example of Scandinavian Imperialism.

Why ?

I asked whether ordinary people living in certain European countries during the period when Britain had an empire, fared any worse because their country didn't have an empire ?

Was the question too difficult for you to understand ?

And to help you answer the question, here's a clue : Charles Dickens wrote of the abject poverty and misery which confronted the masses in Britain, during a period when the British Empire was at its height, and when Britain was the wealthiest nation on Earth.

On tinternet, innit?

Based on figures from HM Treasury though so should be reasonably accurate.

I was just wondering because I drew it!

Ernie - noticed, yes. Know what he does (other than post on here), no.

I'm a nurse.

I am not interest in your segue Ernie. I'm watching 'Walking Dead' now.

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I'm a nurse.

Thanks. If i promise not to comment on medical matters, will you promise not to comment on economic development trajectories? 😉

I am not interest in your segue Ernie

So why did you comment on my post ?

I wasn't even talkin to you, you daft herbert.

Well don't then! 🙄

If i promise not to comment on medical matters, will you promise not to comment on economic development trajectories?

What a daft suggestion.

I for one, reserve the right to comment on any subject, including ones which I know nothing about.

including ones which I know nothing about.

Indeed, you're especially good at doing that!

And why not ?

Economists are always very keen to give their opinions, despite the fact that many are completely clueless.

Then there are government ministers.......very few have any qualifications concerning their brief. And yet that doesn't stop them from making life altering decisions within their portfolios, which effects the whole country.

Having opinions on issues which you know nothing about, is not restricted to a privileged few you know.

there is so much to choose from {BOOM TISH]

Elfinsafety - Member
Actually, speaking of War and that; I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2, when Britain's borders were under threat of Nazi invasion?...

The Highland Division was sacrificed at St Valery en Caux to hold back the Germans to allow all the rest of the army to escape via Dunkirk. Was that commitment enough? My grandfather was there. His last couple of days were without ammunition and just bayonets against armour. He was "lucky" enough to be gravely wounded, so survived as a PoW.

CaptJon; your chart made all the national(up here) newspapers,including the Sundays.Personally I find it a bit cheeky including the money spent on fighting wars as money received from the state. But hey-ho; Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. Allows elfin to feel all generous,so some good I suppose.

Trailmonkey; you are ace!Going from explaining how we were begging for an act of union to suggesting ordinary people in Scotland were benefiting from the empire at it's height. Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Duckman YGM

If anyone has seen it in a newspaper can you let me know please. I had no idea, and one of the things I'm researching at the moment is getting academic work out to the public.

Btw, the data isn't my creation, I just used an existing report and visualised it.

Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Check out what life expectancy was in other parts of the world at that time. Check out why the population of the UK was rising even though birth rates were falling.

Ordinary people in the UK benefitted from the empire, work in shipyards etc, and Scots were among those - no question.

You're boring, Bob.

My God!! The nightmare continues!! Will it ever end?

I never really had a problem with the Scottish before (even the English ones TJ). But that was before last night. Things have changed.

While enjoying a lovely evenings ride from Rammy up over Holcombe Moor, I stopped by the tower to take in the view, and what was to shatter the perfect tranquility of my lovely sunny jaunt?

Bagpipes! Yes! ****ing bagpipes! Bagpipes? In bloody Lancashire? I ask you. Where it was coming from, christ only knows. But the bloody awful droning sound of bagpipes was echoing over the moor

It was one of you lot wasn't it? Was it you TJ? Daubed in blue paint, with yer bloody kilt on? Out to spoil my evenings riding? It was wasn't it?

I demand answers!!!

Life expectancy in Manchester/Glasgow in 1895 was 42 years,maybe it was all the rich food they were eating?

Check out what life expectancy was in other parts of the world at that time. Check out why the population of the UK was rising even though birth rates were falling.

Ordinary people in the UK benefitted from the empire, work in shipyards etc, and Scots were among those - no question.

Here is a question; Industrial(North) US 56.7 years
Germany 61.3 (had a pension system by 1895)
France 55.1

So,the benefits of working in a shipyard were? 😀

As I teach; Population grew in the second half of the 19th century due to the implementation of clean water acts,improved medicine(and understanding of causes of disease)new Taxes on bathtub gin being introduced,taxes on soap and windows being scrapped.Factory acts banning kids from mines and mills until they could read,which made it less important to have lots of kids to work for you,so birthrate fell.In other words people were still living in she-yit but were healthier.BTW you do know a large part of the population in Scotland could not work in the shipyards because of their religion,don't you? Makes that a poor example.

Also the l/e in Glamis, a village outside of Dundee was 70, which would suggest that the people not benefiting from the union,lived longer

Binners it was me but I wasn't playing bagpipes - i was gnawing on a cats tail

So,the benefits of working in a shipyard were?

You got to meet Billy Connolly? And Possibly Alex Fergerson

I suspected as much. Curse you TJ!!!!

Seriously... it was quite weird. I could hear bagpipes as clear as day and I was on my own on top of an empty moorland

duckman, your figures on life expectancy differ drastically from those quoted by Roberts in his European history. I'm at work right now but I'll quote them later when I get home.
Also your reasons for rising life expectancy simply proves my point about a richer society benefitting the UK.
As for sectarian issues in the shipyards, well you can hardly point a finger south of the border for that can you ? ( I'm sure you will though )
As for your point about welfare provision, I agree, we were way behind Germany, probably still are. Most countries were.

You are missing my point,standard of living for ordinary people was much worse during the time of the empire,despite your claims otherwise.Improved medicine only meant that they could survive a little longer in their squalor.Catholics were also excluded from Liverpool's shipyards,is that Scotland's fault? Again,poor choce of example.

your figures on life expectancy differ drastically from those quoted by Roberts in his European history. I'm at work right now but I'll quote them later when I get home.

I'm not being funny fella, but that's the saddest thing I've ever heard. You're going to finish work, with a sunny long bank holiday weekend stretching away in front of you - and instead of going riding, or sitting outside the pub, your going to Google statistics about life-expectancy in Scottish shipyards? To answer some pointless, silly argument on a cycling forum

Please don't? Please. I'm imploring you. For your own sake. Please don't. Go to the pub instead.

Actually binners is right,and we are way off the original thread,I'm out.

You are missing my point,standard of living for ordinary people was much worse during the time of the empire,despite your claims otherwise

I'd be interested to see the evidence for that.

Please don't? Please. I'm imploring you. For your own sake. Please don't. Go to the pub instead.

Maybe, debating history is more fun to me than the pub ? Other lifestyles are available. FWIW, I wouldn't google the stats anyway, I'd research them from textbooks,how sad is that ?

binners - Member
...Bagpipes! Yes! ****ing bagpipes! Bagpipes? In bloody Lancashire? I ask you. Where it was coming from, christ only knows. But the bloody awful droning sound of bagpipes was echoing over the moor

Stop whingeing, we're marching down to London to liberate the Northerners from the Essex mafia. This will improve your standard of living. Soon every Northern family will be able to afford deep fried Mars bars and Haggis sandwiches. 🙂

The thread has gone way of track. The reality is that to most Scots the economics of it don't matter, there is a more important issue.

The attitude of those wanting an independent Scotland is enshrined in one sentence out of the Declaration of Arbroath.

"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

That's right, freedom.

Maybe, debating history is more fun to me than the pub ?

I don't know where that world is, but i know i never ever want to go there 😯

If you come to the pub, I'll buy you a beer. Just to keep you away from your text books. Can't say fairer than that

epicyclo - I think you'll find its "FREEEEEEEEDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" not 'freedom'. To be shouted while waving a sword about. I'm looknig forward to the liberation though. I'll get myself and trailmonkey a pint of Bucky in each later to mark the occasion 😀

Declaration of Arbroath - ahh everyone Scotsman should raise a toast to Edward Longshanks for the creation of their country. Without him they'd have gradually drifted into Union quite peacefully.

ok a compromise - half a pint and a skim read ?

Also your reasons for rising life expectancy simply proves my point about a richer society benefitting the UK

Population grew in the second half of the 19th century due to the implementation of clean water acts,improved medicine(and understanding of causes of disease)new Taxes on bathtub gin being introduced,taxes on soap and windows being scrapped.Factory acts banning kids from mines and mills until they could read,

seems to me that the reason for the decline was change in law and an awareness of public health and a reduction in child labour[deaths]. These acts do not relly need wealth. It was hardly some act of altruistic philanthrophy on the part of empire imperialist capitalism raising the standards of the poor iirc they did it because they started dieing too and they could smell the Thames in parlaiment etc.

Fair enough. I'll avoid the peanuts and pork scratchings too then. Saves getting greasy fingerprints on the books

seems to me that the reason for the decline was change in law and an awareness of public health and a reduction in child labour[deaths]. These acts do not relly need wealth

Well, education costs does it not ? So wealth is a factor

It was hardly some act of altruistic philanthrophy on the part of empire imperialist capitalism raising the standards of the poor

You're missing the point. I'm not trying to make out that the empire was philanthropic or that everyone in the UK benefitted equally. However, it is certain that living standards, standards of education, life expectancy all improved during that age. It has been pointed out that this also happened in Scandanavia and this is true, it was industrialisation that bought the wealth. Where the empire becomes important to the UK is that it was a huge part of our trading empire as well as a source of materials.

The UK benefitted from the empire - undoubtedly. Scots benefitted too.

Well, education costs does it not ? So wealth is a factor

However, it is certain that living standards, standards of education, life expectancy all improved during that age

The UK benefitted from the empire - undoubtedly. Scots benefitted too

Of course there is Rentons rant from transpotting

I hate being Scottish. We're the lowest of the ****ing low, the scum of the earth, the most wretched, servile, miserable, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just ****ers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by ****ers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any ****ing difference.

a night of counter claim awaits ...NNNNNNOOOOOOO

My work here is done

If I was to choose just one reason for Scotland becoming independent it would be to hear the end of Scots blaming the English for all their woes.

recent well known scottish politician, Gordon brown,with peeps like him how long before scotland would run themselves into the ground, as you know to raise finance he would probably sell off the oil fields at rock bottom rate

You mean Gordon Brown - the most effective chancellor that I remember the 70s? So he made mistakes - however name me a chancellor in the last 50 years with a better record? A decade of unprecedented growth without inflation, no recession etc.

Well said Jezzer. He completely eliminated Boom and Bust! He said so himself

Oh.... erm... hang on a minute?

Name a chancellor with a better record? Lamont? Don't be stupid. Lawson - you could make a case but recessions, increased unemployment and multiple boom and bust.

Remember a decade of uninterrupted growth with low inflation and low interest rates. Unemployment decreasing. Prosperity increasing and more money for public services.

So name a better

Prosperity increasing

shall i spell it out... IT WASN"T REAL. NONE OF IT. IT WAS ALL ON CREDIT

One sentence uncle Jez

"worst recession since the 1930's"

Cause: The complete failure to regulate the banks, or a ridiculous property and credit bubble, and lets ****ing face it here.... even admit there was a problem in the first place. Frankly he makes Lawson and Lamont look like rank amateurs.

Unfortunately I think young Mr Osbourne will end up trumping the lot

The recession had external causes and was not while Brown was chancellor.

So name a better one? Thats the question. We all know he had faults and made mistakes but compared the other chancellors that I remember

So who was better?

erm...

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Remember a decade of uninterrupted growth with low inflation and low interest rates. Unemployment decreasing. Prosperity increasing and more money for public services.

Talking of cycles I shall ponder this whilst riding the long way home....

My work here is done

He rode the wave of credit and took all of the kudos, then blamed everything else when it went wrong.
Gordo was like a bloke with 100% mortgage, maxed credit cards, car on HP etc blaming the world economy for his monetary problems

So who was better then?

Buggered if I know but then if Gordo was the best then we're in deep trouble indeed. And no, I don't hold much hope of gideon or vince being any better either.

all politicians take the credit and not the blame. Gordo rode the wave for sure - does any country actually controll capitalsims??- but I cant ever see George being touted for the IMF.

DaRC_L - Member
Declaration of Arbroath - ahh everyone Scotsman should raise a toast to Edward Longshanks for the creation of their country. Without him they'd have gradually drifted into Union quite peacefully.

Bit like the English should thank the Bastard of Normandy?

But you're probably right. IMO one of the really great English kings. Without him Scotland could have ended up as 2 countries - the Scandanavian north and the football mob in the south.

However the past provides lessons, and that is a good reason for Scottish independence.

Arc of prosperity

Wasn't this Alex Salmond's proposed daliance with the financial giant that is Iceland?

Will TJ be actually allowed to remain in Scotland or will he need to apply for a visa?
[url= http://www.scotland.com/travel/visa-passports/ ]Worth reading.[/url]

not worth reading

check SNP policy. IIRC I am what is known as an "assimilated scot" There are some scots local to me that are rather brown in complexion. They speak broad scots. Their family has been here for generations

Its a subtle but important concept - there is the "people of Scotland" and the "the scots people" anyone with any intelligence and an understanding of the issues knows the difference

Bored now. 😐

FREEUNDRED! 😀

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Frikkn glory hunter!

I do all the hard work and you come along and swipe all the glory

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Trolled. 😉

TROLL FAIL SBZ, as it has actually bin a reasonably interesting and lively debate.

Pwned by your own troll attempt! 😆

Ha ha!

You've bin pwned!
You've bin pwned!
Nah nah na nah na!

Elf - if you find that interesting and lively you really do need to get out more.

Maybe I do, maybe I do.

But if you find trolling so amusing, then I'd suggest it's you who might benefit from excursions beyond the confines of your own abode a bit more... 😉

Elf - studying mate. Needed something to take my mind off the brain damage that is neurorehab.

It was fairly obvious SBZ

TJ - I know.

Well if your trolling attempt has ended up as a lively, interesting and entertaining debate amongst others, then I'd say you've failed, quite frankly.

You're just peeved cos your ego hasn't bin satisfied, and you're now trying to claw back some sort of gratification, which has long since escaped you...

You're just peeved cos your ego hasn't bin satisfied, and you're now trying to claw back some sort of gratification, which has long since escaped you...

LIsten carefully SBZ, you're being advised by the internet's premier attention whore - Mr PaddedSafetyFred himself.

That's right, and don't you forget it, SBZ! 😉

😆

Trolled. 😀

Truth is though SBZ; the discussion was a bit too intellectual for you, wasn't it? Hence, you got concerned that you weren't getting the attention you'd hoped for, so bring out the 'I was trolling' line again.

This kind of tactic shall henceforth be known as the 'SBZ Defence'.

😉

See above. 😀

See what this is like, right, is this:

You've baked a load of cookies, with the intention of lacing them with laxative and distributing them to unsuspecting others, as a means of getting attention. Then forgetting to add the laxatives, but give them out anyway. Then, people are enjoying the cookies, and hang around for a bit of a chat and that. You get miffed that they're all ignoring you, then you say 'Ha! But you're all eating my cookies'. And they just look at you as if to say, 'yeah, and?' Leaving you to have to quickly think up another way to get attention...

It's like that.

HTH. 😀

SBZ you want to troll him do a LFC thread 😉

Junkyard - I would do, but that would be too easy with him being a plastic fan ad all that. 😉

Elfin - Why you talking about cookies?

Hmmm- Cookies.

Why you talking about cookies?

Still a bit too compulcated for yer?

Oh dear... 🙁