[Closed] Breaking up the Union. What would it mean for the constituent countries?

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However I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

Could have fooled most people on here!

Just noticed the tag 'plastic mac' 😀 I prefer Silicone Scot, mind...

Are you admitting you are wrong about oil then TJ. Sounds like it 😉

If I was Scottish I'd want to be independent 1000%

Money wouldn't really come into it, especially not money derived from fossil fuels.

Elf - the oil companies paid for the exploration. No state funding.

Ok so you're gonna pay them for their efforts then? And the 'value' of the oil fields? How you gonna do that?

[Paxman]Come on, answer the question![/Paxman]

I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from [b]Scotland[/b]. I want a more positive and outward looking engagement with the rest of the world

FTFY.

I [b]believe[/b] that even apart from the oil and independent Scotland would be a significantly better place to live.

Oh, so you only 'believe' this, do you? No actual proof or evidence to back this belief up?

I have no problem with belief. Just don't ask me to share it with you if I don't want to.

Clubber - thats 'cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.

Elf - stop and think. At teh moment the tax is paid to Westminster - post independence to holyrood -= same amount of money no differnce to the oil companies

so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.

Patronising throbber. Just cos I respond in an obtuse and deliberately provocative manner don't mean I don't 'understand'....

You talk about 'understanding', yet for example; any time there's mention of London on here, you display a woeful level of ignorance and bigotry. The fact that you write such things as 'all taxation' goes to Westminster' just compounds this.

I could sit here all day arguing with you. But, there's work to be done, and it's as hot as a bastard out there, nudging 80ºF.

Europe would happily split up into 3 times the number of independent states it is now with power devolving down to this level and up to EU level leaving the current national governments redundant

I like the application of what has obviously worked soooooo well in the NHS on an international scale. Multiples of duplicate petty administration systems all being paid for multiples of times, yet achieving nothing more than giving smaller and smaller groups something to squabble over.

Have the vote - you might see common sense shine through - like when there was a referendum for a 'Northern' government - and it was voted out as a daft idea.

Differences between Norway and Scotland?

Check out just about every single social indicator available. Yes Norway has funded a large proportion of it's improvements from oil extraction but this began 40, yes 40!!! years ago.

That ship has sailed TJ and it's not coming back.

norway is very very different from scotland

id like to see the scottish government that announced that theyd be taxing beer 10 quid a pint or that you could only by spirits from a state run off license (not on sundays) and it would be 30 quid for a cheap bottle of vodka!

konabunny - Member

The oil question is actually a bit of a sideshow in any case. If an independent Scotland were reliant on a relatively small amount of non-renewable natural resources income, it would not be viable.

I'm not sure what you call "a relatively small amount" but the UK is self sufficient in both gas and oil, and has been for over 30 years now, most of it from the North Sea.

Reserves [i]are[/i] drying up and in approx 5 years the UK will cease to be self sufficient in oil, although gas will continue for much longer. The reserves far exceed what Scotland's tiny population needs however.

Elf - stop and think

Do what?? 😯

What is this 'stopping and thinking' of which you speak?

I believe it to be the work of Satan. 😐

Sweet Jesus! Is this still going on? Can't everyone agree to disagree and have a big group hug? Eh?

Its all fairly good natured Binners - Me I'm laughing at the displays of parochial ignorance

How about independence for yorkshire?

You know my feelings on this whole independence thing TJ. I want nothing short of full independence for the South East of England*. I reckon the rest of us would bump along quite nicely 🙂

*this could involve physically separating it from the rest of the mainland and towing it out to sea a bit

Mmmmmmmm we have the makings of a plan.

Cut along the line from teh wash to the bristol channel? Or to the solent so as not to lose the quantocks and cornwall and devon

TandemJeremy - Member
Clubber - thats 'cos on subjects like this people do not listen. I put forward what the case is as a idea to debate and so folk like Elf who don't understand might gain some understanding.

I can never quite decide whether you keep saying this sort of thing just to wind people up or if you really believe it. I kind of credit you with enough intelligence and just about enough social awareness for it to be the former but the longer it goes on, the more I'm starting to think that it might actually be the latter.

And where would you draw the border ? There is an argument for chopping Glasgow off and sailing it down to Liverpool first, would fit better there. Borders aren't just geographical, they can be thematic, cultural and spiritual, you know.

Or we could just round up all the Scottish Separatists and give them a piece of this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/northern-irish-serbs-hutus-granted-homeland-in-wes,305/

Clubber - how often do you see anyone actually pay any attention to what the other side of the argument says? - and the number of times I am told I have said something that I have not said shows how little people actually listen. You have done it on this thread yourself by assuming with no evidence that I am rabidly in favour of independence. People make massive assumptions based on their own prejudices all the time which is why quite honestly I should keep away from this sort of thread.

[i]People make massive assumptions based on their own prejudices all the time which is why quite honestly I should keep away from this sort of thread[/i]

Indeed.

TandemJeremy - Member
Me I'm laughing at the displays of parochial ignorance

And everyone else is laughing at you (again) 😆

Its all fairly good natured Binners

What a ****ing pointless thread in that case ...... this is suppose to be a controversial and emotive subject. If no one can be arsed to get worked up about it, then it hardly seems worth bothering with.

Ernie - a fair bit of frothing from the unionist side. really rather amusing

Funny TJ because you've done exactly what you think I've done. I commented because your reaction to all the Scottish independence threads (or just the merest mention) suggests you do feel strongly about it.

My words:

Could have fooled most people on here!

Where did I say that I thought you were "rabidly in favour of independence"?

I was making the point that if you're not rabidly so then you really need to get some perspective on things as you seem very hung up on it. It's not an unreasonable assumption from people that if someone is as vociferous on a subject as you are that you do care about it quite strongly.

But thanks for backing up my point - I'm now leaning a bit further towards the latter, I'm afraid.

Where did I say that I thought you were "rabidly in favour of independence"?

Yeah I'm sure you said that. And if you didn't, you implied it.

Bang out of order is all I can say.

exactly...

This TJ is why you get up so many people's noses and why even those of us who typically feel that we agree with much of your basic pov find you hugely frustrating - your style of 'debate' is so self-defeating.

find you hugely frustrating

Does anyone really care that much ?

Well, OK, quite frustrating. I do find it annoying that TJ will take threads that I'm interested in off on a tangent (and to be fair he's not the only one) for no apparent reason other than to argue and reiterate his absolute FACTs.

if you want really frustrating have a chat with elfin about liverpool/footie - tell him you support manu oops sorry manure and watch his objectivity disappear. Ask him if liverpool ever dive or see if he can something negative about them
Unfortunately in these debates some people debate because they know they are correct and want to perusade others to this view, some because they are interested and some because they are unceratain and want to be informed. Almost no one on this forum actually admits to be incorrect on something, even when it is obvious, or changes their mind and that frustrates me
TJ does not bother me but I almost always agree with him and seem able to disagree with him without either getting annoyed or wound up

Strangely enough it seems to the people who feel the need to impose their personality the most who get upset by the intractable nature of others.

I wonder why that is?

compare that to Norway who have a national fund from oil money surplus that ensures they will remain rich. Scotland could do the same

Some may have read it already, but for a proper discussion of the subject, read [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Isles-North-Voyage-Lands-Norse/dp/1841582980 ]Isles of the North[/url] which compares two outwardly similar countries with similar populations and natural resources and discusses why one is the richest country in the world and one isn't, but possibly could have been/could be if only it was run like the other.

I'm still waiting for Punxsutawney Phil to show up.

I wonder why that is?

discusses why one is the richest country in the world and one isn't

Is Norway the richest country in the world?

It's clouded over a bit. Bitterly cold now. 🙁

if you want really frustrating have a chat with elfin

😀

I love the irony with TJ; one minute blasting the Tories and Conservative policies for serving only the interests of the already wealthy, and next banging on about Scottish independence and wealth from oil which would deprive other areas of Britain the economic benefits from oil revenues....

So, according to TJ, 'England' creams all the tax revenue from oil production, and not enough of it finds it's way back to Scotland, despite the fact that on average, there is more government expenditure per capita in Scotland than most other areas of the UK. And that On average, Scotland pays less in tax per capita than it receives in govt. spending....

So, all the tax revenue gets spread reasonably equally around the UK really. Some areas need less than others. Some areas provide a net profit in terms of contributions v spending, while others spend more than they pay.

So, TJ; do you think it's ok that some of the poorer areas of the UK should suffer through even further public spending cuts, to fund your idealistic dream of an independent Scotland? Bearing in mind you are vociferously opposed to Tory spending cuts?

Bit hypocritical and greedy of you, innit? 😕

Strangely enough it seems to the people who feel the need to impose their personality the most who get upset by the intractable nature of others.

I wonder why that is?

Why not have a stab at trying to provide some sort of insight and theories of your own? Might be quite interesting...

[img] [/img]

Why not have a stab at trying to provide some sort of insight and theories of your own? Might be quite interesting...

Ok. It's a competitive thing isn't it? Some people love to feel like the centre of attention and feed off it. This includes always needing to be seen to be right/having the last word when the thread becomes a discussion. It's not really a surprise that they find people who will not change their opinion frustrating. It lessens them and that's a threat, perhaps albeit a sub conscious one. What do you think?

Elf. Lost of assumptions there.

I believe Scotland would be better off if independent - more internationalist, greener, tory free zone.

Also Scotland would be able to pursue policies in its own interest which often diverge from England

Folk say that it is not financially viable using the bogus argument you use. I point out the other side of the argument.

Scotland puts more into the exchequer than it receives. This is a fact. Scotland gets less per person that the south east.

I get involved in this to counter the falsehoods and misinformation bandied around. its a waste of time as the majority of folk willnot alter their preconceptions. I won't again

Is that only a "fact", TJ? Not an "absolute FACT"? 😉

I dislike the insular parochial and xenophobic view that comes from [s]England[/s] Scotland.

Just get over yourself TJ. Frankly neither I, nor most others give a fig what nationality you perceive yourself to be, or even feel that you have a right to be.

Whilst I accept that objective thinking is far from your stong point (your starting point for Scotland's independence being a rapidly dwindling non-renewable and highly polluting energy source for starters), in a world run by economies the size of the USA and China, the best policy for long term survival would surely be a Federal Europe. By all means, hold your myopic views of right to self determination, but as long as all the little countries squabble, it just leaves the very big ones more chance to quietly gobble up the world's resources whilst noone's watching.

In the mean time, have a public chuckle about England's reliance on the banking sector, but also look at what happened to the two main Scottish banking groups - I'm sure Westminster would be only too happy to let Holyrood pick up the tab for HBOS and RBS. Celtic tiger indeed eh? More like the celtic dodo....

EDIT: Doh! STW's hamsters must have had too much of the one major export Scotland truly is great at: Whisky!

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.Although only in the short term,as that table counts oil revenues.

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.

Why take it away? Does the military only serve England, and not the UK as a whole?

Scots are too busy fighting themselves over football and religion (and all the blurring of the two) at the moment to need an army to fight anyone else...

TJ sez this:

Elf. Lots of assumptions there.

Then, right, he sez this:

I believe Scotland would be better off if independent - more internationalist, greener, tory free zone.

Without any actual factual conclusive proof or evidence to back this up. IE, belief based on assumptions, no? 😕

Scotland puts more into the exchequer than it receives. This is a fact.

I'm not denying this, as I have only the evidence provided by HM Treasury as in that diagram above. Do you have actual evidence to support your claims?

Scotland gets less per person that the south east.

One of the main reasons for this is the disproportionately high housing costs in the SE, coupled with the fact that many people in London live well below the National Average Household Income level, and more are reliant on State Benefits to make up the shortfall. This isn't 'Westminster favouring London', or any other such crap. I'm sure you can work that out though...

Fact is that on average, London, the South East and East of England are in effect helping to subsidise the rest of the UK. I don't see a problem with this at all; surely co-operation between people of the same Nation is a good thing, no? So, your lovely tax revenues goes to help people in Northern ireland as well as London. Are you also opposed to that? Do you not think those people in NI who need state help should get it?

the disproportionately high housing costs in the SE, coupled with the fact that many people in London live well below the National Average Household Income level, and more are reliant on State Benefits to make up the shortfall.

Zokes - your post shows a series of good examples of folk not listening to the debate.

I have repeatedly said on this forum I consider myself British. Of English descent and Scotland is my home.

I quite agree with you about a federal Europe. Thats one of the major points here. "Independence in Europe" The ability to have a say for Scotland in the supranational institutions. Instead of the bowing to the eurosceptics all the time as mentioned on this very thread

Elfin; that chart is well known,it counts spending on the military towards the per capita per person,take that away,or a chunk of it as military spending would be cut a great deal and Scotland would contribute more than it receives.

Its true Fred. Most families in the North West have our own Challenger tank. Living in Newcastle is best though. Every 3 houses share their own Typhoon fighter jet. They aren't the ground attack derivative though. That would allow for far too much mischief-making with rival football fans on Tyneside Derby Days.

Hope that clears up the spending discrepancy for you

That's what you call the "greatest city in the world" - overpriced housing and benefit scroungers?

🙄

You're boring, Bob.

Binners; I'm having one of these delivered on Friday:

[img] [/img]

Ooooooooooooooooooo - can I have a go? Can I? Can I? Can I? I'll let you loose off a few rounds from the Challenger. Its terrible on diesel but its good fun

the comparision to Norway is actually quite close. Apart from Norway got rid of its [b]colonial masters[/b] a while ago

What a peculiar thing to say. In what way does England represent a colonial master to Scotland ? England had been ruled by the King of Scotland since James VI in 1603 - over 100 years before the Scottish Parliament decided that an act of union would benefit it ( see a pattern developing here ? ). If I were an Indian or Zulu reading your words I'd think it even stranger that a Scot would consider themselves a colonial victim when so many Scots had been involved in and benefitted from the subjugation of lands and people all around the Empire. Even those not employed in the armed forces were happy to make their living in the dockyards of the Clyde that ensured British hegemony of the sea and as a result, the globe. I'm sure that you can point to crofters evicted from their farms by English landlords ( see another theme developing ? ) but how that becomes an issue of nation in a supposedly united nation is arguable. The same evictions happened all over England. It's class politics not national politics that are at play there.
If you do have any valid points to your argument, I suggest that you stick to them rather than resort to hyperbole.

Ok Binners, but only if you're a [i]very[/i] good boy.

Still waiting for the proof I asked TJ for.... 🙄

By that comment on your chart, I would suggest that we would be more likely to cut our cloth when it came to defence spending,but you knew that.I think we would be unlikely to feel the need for nukes,or the subs to carry them,or full scale invasion of foreign countries,as unlike yourselves we don't imagine/want to be a major player on the world military stage.(The same superiority complex that makes it hard for you to accept that not everybody in the UK wants to be British)I remember this chart being picked apart four years ago when it came out,but realistic defence spending would decrease the amount received by enough to put us in credit.

Trailmonkey,that was quality!

the Scottish Parliament decided that an act of union would benefit it

A quick skim through this thread reveals the wonderful generosity of some of the English.

They say we Scots won't be able to support ourselves, and yet they still want to continue to subsidise us. What wonderful fellows! 🙂

However even if we do make less money, we'll have a better standard of living because we won't be wasting our pension, education, and health funds by expensively killing people in other countries.

Given the fondness that youngsters from some part of scotland have for stabbing each other - I see a brilliant opportunity the bring out a range of scottish army knives. Just like a kitchen knife, but covered in blood.

Look, you're not getting independence, you're not a significant enough population, so just be quiet and accept yer lot.

Earlier I right fancied a Raspberry or Fruits of the Forest Cornetto. They only had Strawberry. I don't even know if the former two exist.

Instead of stamping my feet and wailing 'it's not fair', I bought a Strawberry one, and enjoyed it.

Be happy with what yer've got. Make the most of it. Be thankful you're part of Britain, you ungrateful whinging moaners....

Elfinsafety - Ever been to Scotland?

Nope. I've never been to the Isle of Man either. Your point?

You seem to have a hell of a lot of opinions about a place you've never been to.

And?

What is your actual point?

You seem angry.

I was merely making an observation.

Oh, right.

Angry? Nah, just bored with it, and a bit bemused by TJ's rank hypocrisy (Right-wing when it suits him).

I reckon wait for, say, 20 years or so, then see if Scotlanders still want independence. 😉

Seems that a number of Scots are pretty insular, narrow-minded selfish people who don't give a stuff about people in other parts of the UK. I'm wondering why?

Seems that a number of people are pretty insular, narrow-minded selfish people who don't give a stuff about people in other parts. I'm wondering why?

FTFY.

Elfinman, you're starting to sound more and more like "Dennis Cooper" with your absurdly zealous English chauvinism

However even if we do make less money, we'll have a better standard of living because we won't be wasting our pension, education, and health funds by expensively killing people in other countries.

Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you'll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Trailmonkey - the Highland clearances were mainly - but not always - carried out by Scots landlords, who were often the Clan chiefs of the very people they were dispossessing - their own relatives in fact. Ok, most of these landlords were absentee landlords living in London/Edinburgh etc but they were still Scots.
It seemed that sheep were more profitable than crofters so out the poor buggers went. As you say, the same thing happened at some points in England as well although the Black Death was one cause of the land being turned over to sheep raising as there simply weren't enough people left alive to raise crops in the rather labour intensive methods of the C14th.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they'll be able to pay the high tariffs we'll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import 😉

trailmonkey - Member
...Yet more hyperbolic hyper bollox. The Scots regiments have always been a more than willing part of the British Army and I think you'll find a high number recently deployed in Afghanistan expensively killing people.

Of course we Scots love killing people, but a Scottish government wouldn't waste money shipping troops to exotic foreign countries when there's so many people to kill right next door.

(Makes as much sense as your answer)

Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Of course we Scots love killing people

Not that funny given recent football related matters 🙁

Elfinman, you're starting to sound more more and more like "Dennis Cooper" with your absurdly zealous English chauvinism

It gets people more fired up and livens up the debate a tad. Works every time, too. 😀

No, we've done the ins and outs of it all, and if it's for purely economic reasons, it's a pretty daft idea. Britain is better together.

If TJ is right about Scotland being richer after Independence then they'll be able to pay the high tariffs we'll impose on the border and our coastal waters for any of the goods they import

You can guarantee the rest of Britain woon't give them an easy time on that score. 😉

Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day.........gave us a right morale boost I can tellya. Gawd bless'im.

Well I remember the lone piper on Sword Beach on D Day

Yeah you're about that old, in't yer? 😀

I saw it at the pictures - I felt as if I were there......moved me to tears, hearing that piper did.

Let's face it ...... Gerry never stood a chance, when confronted by that level of spunk.

trailmonkey - Member
Why does my answer make no sense ? Are you denying Scots involvement in the British Army ?

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

Actually, speaking of War and that; I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2, when Britain's borders were under threat of Nazi invasion?

And what of all the brave [s]English, Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish[/s] British soldiers who gave their lives defending Britain? How do the Scottish Nationalists view their sacrificial efforts? Need they not have bothered? 🙄

What I am saying is that a Scottish government will not be wasting money fighting post colonial wars if we have full independence.

No of course not. You'll be a completely seperate economic entity to the rest of the global north with no incentive to get involved.

Grow up.

I wonder what the Scottish Nationalist position was during WW2,

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire brfore wwii, happy to fight for it during.

Elfin, a bloke i know had a Grandfather who was an ardent Scots Nationalist and apparently he buggered off to Ireland for the duration as, in his words "It's a bloody English war".
Mind you, his other Grandfather did fight in the war - with the SS! 😯

Happily and quietly enjoying the fruits of the empire.

I don't know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed "the fruits of the empire", that was restricted to the privileged few.

Do you really think that people from European countries without empires, such as Scandinavia, fared any worse ?

I don't know why you keep banging on about that, the ordinary British people, Scottish or otherwise, never enjoyed "the fruits of the empire", that was restricted to the privileged few.

Well considering The UK is a relatively affluent nation in global terms, and people here enjoy a standard of living much higher than most people on Earth, I'd say you're talking bollocks really. That wealth is mainly as a result of colonialisation. The wealth has trickled down throughout British society, to a situation where no-one in the UK suffers poverty on a scale seen in the Indian Subcontinent, Africa etc (IE the countries Briatain exploited). Nowhere even close. Even the poorest here are far far better off. As for Scandinavia, have you never heard of the Vikings? They've only really become wealthy nations in the last hundred years or less, in modern terms though.

Just seen a bit about the sectarian letter bomb thingies on't news. Not a good advert for Scotland I'd say. 🙁