[Closed] Breaking up the Union. What would it mean for the constituent countries?

Doubtful they could get a vote on independence passed. Its always a lower number of people want independence than vote SNP.

Scotland would be richer not having to support England. Scotland would be nuclear free in a very few years.

England would have a tory government for ever

TJ you make the assumption that england would let scotland keep its budget and revenue generating assets..

I'm pretty sure one of them would sink.

Toys - its clear in law - there is Scottish and English marine resources

england would let scotland keep its budget and revenue generating assets..

Toys;how could the English stop them? Tourism and what little is left of the oil are in Scottish territory.They will NOT win a ref on full indy,so it is a bit of a non-issue anyway. As a wee aside,before the free-prescriptions brigade launch forth,how much are the [b]LONDON[/b] Olympics costing the rest of the UK? (Takes his place in the Schiltron next to Junkyard and err..TJ)

Toys;how could the English stop them

Probably all out war!

This has already been discussed in parliment has it not, during the early stages of devolution there was a whole clause about the underground and marine assets not being part of it, some crap about them already being owned by the crown (or UK plc or something like that). It would be like Scotland going independent and taking TJ's flat because he isn't scottish.

EDIT - Duckman, I don't want the bloody olympics, I don't think they are good for anyone except those people building edifices to themselves.

TJ - step away from the forum chap. You're being baited.

Flat[b]s[/b] don't you know TJ is a property tycoon now? 😀

The Southern Yeti - Member

TJ - step away from the forum chap. You're being baited.

Indeed. Not very subtly either

What's the weather like up there at the moment?

I'm planning on travelling light, do you think I'll get away with shorts and flip flops?

Serious question.

YAwn...
Who's baiting who? There is a discussion to be had here, and quite an interesting one.

The Crown Estate owns Britain’s entire inter-tidal zone, therefore if England and Scotland were to split the Queen still has full control of all of the oil and gas coming ashore. As the Crown Estate is separate to both England and Scotland (but pays into the treasury) what happens there?

Okay, as you were.

Anyone fancy a 'where did your username come from' thread?

The Crown Estate owns Britain’s entire inter-tidal zone, therefore if England and Scotland were to split the Queen still has full control of all of the oil and gas coming ashore. As the Crown Estate is separate to both England and Scotland (but pays into the treasury) what happens there?

That was my point..

JEngledow

There is clear legal precedent for dividing up offshore assets and when North sea oli was first being explored it was divided into Scottish and English zones as Scotland has a differnt legal system

Could we just copy and paste one of the previous threads and all go to the pub instead?

This might be true but as I said before the UK Parliament when it set up devolution made a point of excluding these assets. If it was as easy as you say then why would the SNP be campaigning to get all of its oil revenue after independence?

akira - what are you drinking? Grab a table in the sun and I'll get some pork scratchings an' all.

I suspect LIz will play ball if she doesn't want the council tax on Balmoral to increase by a fairly substantiall amount - say £100 million?

Is there room in the Schiltron for one more - I brought my own spear and painted my arse specially/

Scottish Independence? My opinion?

Scotland would eventually become the Albania of Western Europe. 😕

Is no-one proud to be British anymore? Each of the constituent parts of Great Britain is a rich and prosperous nation because it's part of a greater entity.

I will never understand why anyone would want independence. Look at where we stand in the world as a United Kingdom! Oh, and I think we should have a GB footie team. 😈

Beagy

We all know what will happen. There would be an alliance formed of small, independent countries... lets think of an abstarct name for such a concept... erm... I"VE GOT IT... an Arc Of Prosperity. Us left behind in England would be powerless in the face of such a thing and would return to the dark ages, living in mud huts and eating our own young. The whole country would look like Yorkshire

Anyway... I think Akira's right. We could all meet somewhere accessible, just over the border perhaps. Somewhere we could ride bikes. Glentress anyone? 😀

Scotland would eventually become the Albania of Western Europe.

More likely to be England - once the banks up sticks and head for pastures new what have you got left to generate income? Actually, given you won't even be able to afford the electricity we currently sell you at subsidised rates, you're more likely to become the Ukraine to our Russia.

Anyway, as others have said already, I doubt there will be a vote for independence up here anytime soon - we're currently demonstrating how devolution has given us enough of a safety zone from another Tory government, so the motivation isn't anywhere near as strong as it was post-Thatcher.

There is clear legal precedent for dividing up offshore assets and when North sea oli was first being explored it was divided into Scottish and English zones as Scotland has a differnt legal system

Have you seen the way we have of dealing with potential threats to our oil supply 😉

[img] [/img]

I love the way TJ refuses to engage with me. He won't argue with anyone who is prepared to actually stand up to his opinion, he just comes on here makes a statement and only talks to like minded people. Weak.

There is clear legal precedent for dividing up offshore assets and when North sea oli was first being explored it was divided into Scottish and English zones as Scotland has a differnt legal system

I'm not asking about the off shore assets, but the short section of pipe between the sea and the land which is on land leased from the Crown Estate.

As ditch_jockey says the Queen would probably just play ball (if Charlie doesn't do her in first!), but it could still go either way!

Have you seen the way we have of dealing with potential threats to our oil supply

Will you send both Tornados at once, or one at a time to keep us guessing?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13081691 ]Ur airforce is Saracin[/url]

TJ - there isn't all that much oil left under the N Sea. The Scots (and the Surrey Highlanders like yourself) would be akin to Bahrain and other similar countries - a few years of boom then desperate scrabbling to find something else to generate the squandered income now depleted. Far less of the boom than the Middle East as so little is left.

Will you send both Tornados at once, or one at a time to keep us guessing?

It wouldn't matter - angry drunk men painted in blue woad throwing stones is not a Ground Based Air Defence System worth talking about.

Never mind oil, I believe the future will be renewables and I sincerely hope Scotland takes the lead as it's a natural resource base for wind, wave, tidal et al.
I don't believe it would have much affect on the other countries, but would certainly improve the identity we have with our respected countries.

[img] [/img]

It's all rubbish all of it, I'll be on this if anyone wants me I'm sailing away from all of it.....

anyone want to stow away?

Room for a little one Bagpuss?

I often wonder about the practicalities of becoming an independent country.

Like, would we need to start up our own army, navy and TAF (teuchters air force).

What would we do about currency. Surely not adopt the Euro. So what would the currency be called? Haggis (in lieu of pounds) and neeps (in lieu of pence)? Just Beer Tokens?

toys19 - Member

I love the way TJ refuses to engage with me. He won't argue with anyone who is prepared to actually stand up to his opinion, he just comes on here makes a statement and only talks to like minded people. Weak.

Weak bait. This has been done before,I have given you all the data, there is no legal doubt at all about ownership of the oil and other offshore reserves. Clear international treaties and ways of dividing assets, Clear demarcation between English , Scottish and Norwegian fields, you forget the queen is Scotland's queen as well.

You didn't want to listen last time we did this why should I waste my time again especially as its a moot point anyway.

Federal Britain.

You didn't want to listen last time we did this

Y'know, there is a difference between listening and agreeing. We do listen to you, we just don't agree. You seem to have trouble with that.

Just out of intrest, what's so bad about being British anyway?

Just out of intrest, what's so bad about being British anyway?

they let the scots [i]and[/i] welsh in the club too.

Molgrips _ I provided him with all the legal stuff which shows very clearly the ownership of the oil. He denies this exists. Its just clear baiting and worthy of being ignored. So yes - he ( and you ) do not listen 'cos if you did we wouldn't be back with this dead debate.

I do listen, I just disagree. Not on this, I'm withholding because it's so complicated that debating it is pointless since no-one can tell what'll really happen.

Just out of intrest, what's so bad about being British anyway?

He's as English as a Sunday roast with Yorkshire puddings and English mustard, Sat in the Red Lion drinking Bitter. He's like one of dem self-hating jews innit? 🙂 Imagine if it ended up like Yugoslavia! You might be ethnically cleansed TJ

Bagpuss - Where you going on the yacht? other side of Angelzarc? Nice day for it. Mind if i tag along? 😉

I'm neither for or against. If the majority of Scots want it, they should have it. They will survive the turmoil it causes. And so will the English and Welsh.

Just out of intrest, what's so bad about being British anyway?

It involves being guilty by association with bams like this...

 

So that guys presumably a lot different to all the Scots who want 'Scotland to be about Scottish'?

England would have a tory government for ever

You really don't understand the mechanics of bourgeois democracy do you TJ .... there's no chance of that.

It is one of the eternal truths that no electorate in any bourgeois democracy is ever sufficiently satisfied with its governments, that it wishes to keep the same party in power indefinitely.

Capitalism is more or less in constant crises and because of the contradictions of capitalism, no party is ever able to resolve the crises satisfactorily.

This invariably leads to a dissatisfied electorate which eventually votes the governing party out of office. Opposition parties everywhere, rarely "win" elections - governments nearly always "lose" them.

So whilst it might appear that a English Welsh union would always have a Tory government, the dialectical conditions would very quickly lead to the creation of an opposing force - with which power would rotate.

In parliamentary democracies throughout the world power between ruling and opposition parties is very finely balanced, and they find their equilibrium very quickly - you will never have a three-quarters to a quarter ratio for very long.

You didn't want to listen last time we did this why should I waste my time again especially as its a moot point anyway.

Umm find me the thread where I have discussed this with you before? Because I haven't.

There is a xenophopic element to those who are in favour of scottish independence but its a very small minority. The majority are liberal and international minded. For example there is a very clear position on "the people of Scotland" that includes folk like me and Mr Patel my grocer.

The SNP are a liberal, internationalist party. I can't even remember what the right wing nationalist nuts are called - some equivalent of the BNP and completely marginalised

If it wasn't you toys then I apologise. However its been done to death.

Have a look at this WIKI link. Lots of references there but all of the oil and gas north of the 55th parallel is scotlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Scotland%27s_oil

He's as English as a Sunday roast with Yorkshire puddings and English mustard, Sat in the Red Lion drinking Bitter He's like one of dem self-hating jews innit?

I'm not sure what that means, but you've still not answered the question.

Surely having a United Kingdom means that we have totally open borders and so can move freely to whatever area we deem to be best. If we were separate countries this could be harder.

EDIT: I'm not getting drawn into thes nonsense.

JEngledow - Member

Surely having a United Kingdom means that we have totally open boarders and so can move freely to whatever area we deem to be best. If we were separate countries this could be harder

Like moving from Germany to France? Norway to Sweden?

The SNP are a liberal, internationalist party.

They are indeed. Alex Salmond was forever expressing admiration for the tax regime of Ireland and the regulatory framework of Iceland and holding them both up as shining examples of what Scotland could aspire too.

What's the economic policy now TJ? Is there one? Come on... what's Plan B?

Like moving from Germany to France? Norway to Sweden?

That's possible because they are all part of the EU, if England and Scotland were to split would they both automativally remain in the EU or would they need to re-apply?

Edit: I appreciate that Norway are not a EU member state, but have an agreement in place (I think) which would obviously take some time to set-up.

TJ apology accepted, it wasn't me.
I am keen to know more despite your apparent fear of any trap I may be baiting for you..
1) that link isn't clear at all on the legal position.
2) My knowledge of this comes from a time in the early noughties when I was doing some consultancy for a scottish owned oil services company who spent a lot of time moaning about how the oil was excluded in devolution. It is a well known fact in the oil industry.
3) I think Scotland should have its independence if that's what the scots want.

A self financing scotland would be quite interesting to see.

How would the state pay for itself?

Im sure scots are aware of the fact and hats why they will never vote for independance.

Im starting the campaign now for Enagland and wales independance from scotland.

3) I think Scotland should have its independence if that's what the scots want

TJ a lot of what you is supposition and depends on how you interpret the statistics, but this bit

England would have a tory government for ever

is demonstrably wrong. In every vote where there has been a winner in a UK general election, the party that won an overall majority of the seats in the UK also won the majority of the seats in England.

It is English arrogance to think Scotland cannot self finance itself without you.

It's what the English want.

So tempted to join in, but I must restrain myself!!!!!

No good.........

Splitting the UK would take a long time and not be cheap. Obviously if Scotland wants to leave, it has to pick up the legal costs. Generally the oil goes to Scotland and the Gas to England, Wales and NI. Both the Gas and Oil are going to run out.

Just remember that a share of the National Debt also ends up in Scotland, roughly 1/12th of the debt that is currently causing all the problems.

Scotland would lose its influence in the World. It would have to join the UN, EU and other organisations. The remaining part of the UK would retain existing membership. Scotland is not a poor country and as such would find itself a net contributor to the EU

And as for the currency. Assuming that it abandoned Sterling (control from London) then the options would be its own currency or the Euro (control from Brussels/Frankfurt).

The biggest gainers would be the SNP

I hope it's going to be Scotland for the Scotch though. DNA tests for all. Throw out the incomers and give their homes to pure bloods such as me.

Toys - there are several sources of the claim for "its Scotlands oil" outlined in the wiki link.

1) when the oil exploration started there was a need for establishing who had jurisdiction over what areas. thus "The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction.[7]"

So thats puts most of the oil under Scotlands jurisdiction.

2) There there are various international treaties that set out how the seabed should be divided - IIRC the principles from this law were used to give the results above

United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea is probably the main one involved here but there are others IIRC that are pertinent. Again these give a similar result. Its the same rules that allow Norway to claim a large part of the north sea.

There is a group of political thinkers who want the oil to remain English. They use all sorts of manoeuvres and odd interpretations to try to show that these various provisions and treaties do not apply but its hard to see that they don't

Its all terribly hypothetical anyway as there will not be a majority in Scotland for independence I doubt and if there was it would be a foolish English government that challenged well understood international law. In the event of a dispute there are international mechanisms for dealing with them Is there not a dispute at the moment over the attempt by Russia to lay claim to the Arctic? The same laws have been used to divide up the Antarctica seabed and around the Falkland Islands.

As regards oil not being included in the devolution settlement - of course it was not. that would have given Scotland financial independence and cut a large source of revenue to the exchequer. There are a large number of similar things that remain "reserved matters" - reserved for Westminster not Holyrood. Such as energy policy, tax policy

I hope it's going to be Scotland for the Scotch though. DNA tests for all. Throw out the incomers and give their homes to pure bloods such as me.

Can I get a sham marriage to get in?

Is that a proposal TSY?

You're my Uncle Jeremy... is that allowed?

You might have to fluff the odd sporan, but I don't see why not.

This is really moving. Love really does conquer all

*bursts into tears*

In every vote where there has been a winner in a UK general election, the party that won an overall majority of the seats in the UK also won the majority of the seats in England.

I would interested to see the figures to back that up ?

Just looking at the previous general election in 2005 suggests that is not the case :

[i]"The Conservatives managed to return 198 MPs, 33 more than they had previously and managed to win the popular vote in England."[/i]

Will everyone from Corby have to move up to scotland?

If they do break away, English incomers will be the first against the wall 😉

Scotland would be richer not having to support England.

😆

It would be if Englishmen like you moved out and gave all your assets back to the people of Scotland.... 😉

What a nonsense argument. Why do you persist with such utter tosh, TJ? Hmm?

You've really not thought this through, have you?

TJ - The Nationalist nutters you mention are the blackshirted members of the SnG or Sons of the Gael in English.
Those lovely fellows who burn (or attempt to burn) the Union Flag at the anniversary of Bannockburn and who claim that Scotland is for the 'ethnic Scots'*. Also have a little thing about not allowing homosexuality in Scotland.

*Might not be a good idea to vote for them TJ 😛

My Mrs and one of the kids (the ginger one) is a jock, does this mean I could get rid? They're a lot of work in the summer and factor 50 sun tan lotion is pricey.

Ha...where would the English be without our exports of haggis, Irn Bru and Tunnocks Caramel Wafers.

Slimmer and with more teeth?

If Scotland ever gained independence, you can bet that a select few oily bastards would be making a fat profit from the change, whilst the average person gained nothing at all.

On a slight tangent, there's every chance Sinn Feinn will top the poll in NI and they have called for a referendum on reunification of the island.

[b]SbZ[/b] The Scottish goverment elections are coming up fairly soon, and from where I am sitting the SNP are in with a really good chance of getting a majority this time round.

Eh? Which polls have you been reading / listening to?

Whilst I don't trust polls, and the PR system is not quite a straight forward as it could be the SNP have been getting at the most around about 40% - which is not a majority.

When all is said and done TJ, you're not a Scot and never will be.

What you are is a whiny, self-hating Fisher Price pseudo-celt. England is better off without you, but Scots Nats types will never truly accept you. That's the reality of the situation no matter what sort of tartan gloss you try and put on it.

You're at last as tedious as those white muslim converts that start banging on about jihad, less than a year after their last sausage roll.

How's the buy-to-let going? I do hope you're not depriving a young Scottish couple of a home with your English money.

The SNP have proven themselves reasonably capable while in office and I think that might have now taken them beyond the view that some had of them as a one-issue party.

I don't see independence happening anytime soon, however I'll still consider voting SNP in the Scottish elections as they do appear to be the most capable of the parties up here.

bravohotel8er - Member

When all is said and done TJ, you're not a Scot and never will be.

(Blah blah blah load of petty jingoistic blah removed)

with your English money.

🙄
English money? You mistake for for a newcomer. I moved to Scotland first in 1970.