[Closed] Bought a cracked frame from STW classifieds

Personally, if I picked up the frame in person and handed over the cash I would be pissed with myself.
It seems the seller wasn't trying to con you.
Move on.

I'd phone his mobile, not rely on texts.

People are far less likely to be evasive if they're actually talking to you.

If he won't talk and send the money then follow it up with a letter saying that unless you receive a refund by a certain date you'll be forced to take things down a legal route to secure the return of your money

But the frame was sold as seen.
No cash was handed over until the buyer was happy with the purchase.
So what legal action could you take?
EDIT: How does the seller not know if the damage was not caused by the new owner?

Not that I'm encouraging you to name and shame, but it wouldnt be the same person that posted a rather urgent wanted post for a zesty front triangle would it?!? 🙄

As you picked it up in person, you might be facing a bit of an uphill battle.

Classic case of buyer beware, same would apply if you bought a second hand car privately & it went pop 5 miles into the journey home. Anything you get back would be goodwill from the seller.

Sh*tty situation, as he probably never knew, and realistically if it was under the paint, how could he.

I think I'd look to getting it fixed and just riding it anyway.

I'm with the seller here, sounds as though you collected so had chance to examine the goods and got stung a little.

If he does anything to get the frame back and refund you then he's doing more than he needs to.

sounds like an innocent enough sale as clearly neither of you could see the crack in the frame and he's done the right thing saying he'll refund you. I guess its a fair chunk of money so i get his spending it on a new bike. All seemed reasonable up to that point.

but now it looks like he's swerving a little and maybe cant afford to pay you back or maybe worse is thinking about backing away from the promise to pay you.

I'd also suggest a phone call and a discussion and see how the land lies. you want your cash back so help him by saying if its too much to give you half this month and then half next and you'll send the frame back when you have first payment. test if he is going to sort your cash out of run away.

I'm not convinced there much of a repair he can do on an alu frame, he might have realised its not easy to repair and that now leaves him out of pocket.

does anybody know the legal stance on this? Id have thought youre on thin ice.

It's a Zesty - it would have cracked as soon as you swung a leg over it anyway. Just be thankful it wasn't your/a childs/a dogs face that got hurt in the process and chalk it up to experience.

Or, is it still in warranty with the original owner - can something not be sorted down that route?

Buyer beware. Sounds like it would have been nigh on impossible for the seller to even know about the crack, so I think you would be on dodgy ground going after him after you collected in person.

Classic case of buyer beware, same would apply if you bought a second hand car privately & it went pop 5 miles into the journey home. Anything you get back would be goodwill from the seller.

From Martin Lewis:

"If you're buying second-hand goods from a private seller (someone who doesn't sell goods for all or part of their living) your rights are nowhere near as strong as when buying from a shop.

[b]The only protection is that it's correctly described[/b] and the owner has the right to sell it. Here, it really is a case of caveat emptor or 'let the buyer beware'.

So if the seller says nowt or little about the goods and you buy it, then that's it. Even if it's shoddy, you weren't mis-sold, so have no comeback. Though if they lie to you – you do."

Can we see the original add OP.
I can't see it on here

EDIT Zilgo, The OP got to inspect the frame and came to the conclusion there was no cracks. Otherwisw he would have not purchased it. Thus deeming it acceptable for his use, be it riding down a mountain or hanging on s wall.

The only protection is that it's correctly described and the owner has the right to sell it. Here, it really is a case of caveat emptor or 'let the buyer beware'.

Would be interesting to see how this would hold unless the seller said 'No cracks at all' in his for sale ad.

But the frame was sold as seen.

Not it wasn't, it was sold with no dents or cracks.

Seller then offered to refund.

He's now reneging.

It was just that he offered a full refund thats pissed me off. I believed him at first but after all the excuses it seems he probably knew about the crack and tried to cover it up by leaving the BB in. He seemed surprised when I said I wanted to strip and powder the frame, saying there was no point and I might aswell just leave it and ride it 😕

I said it looks irrepairable and he said he has a friend at uni that welds titanium and this would be a piece of cake for him. Maybe he has found out its not worth doing so is going back on his word.

If it was me I would have thoroughly checked the frame over before selling, and wouldn't be happy ripping someone off.

I think though that reasonableness comes in here. That is the seller has to take reasonable steps to ensure that the description is correct and that it is given in good faith.

They visually inspected the frame and could not see any cracks. They therefore stated that there were none.

It would be unreasonable to expect the seller to have the frame stripped or have non-destructive testing carried out to see if the frame were cracked.

If he were asked if there were any cracks and he visually confirmed not then he cannot be expected to do more.

Further, I think the buyer's case would be a little stronger if the frame had been posted but they had the opportunity to examine the frame and confirm themselves that it was 'as described' and they too could not identify any cracks.

This they did and concurred that it was fine and handed over the money accordingly.

I think the buyer would have very little chance say at the small claims court.

Or 'I can't see any cracks' or 'I don't think there are any cracks'.

Sounds like the frame was sold in good faith, with you having a great opportunity to inspect the frame before buying. If it was cracked under the paint, it's hardly the sellers responsibility, unless he sold it as guarenteed crack free or similar.

If it was a 2008 frame, I doubt it cost you the earth so may be a case of sucking it up and moving on.

I noticed a crack in the BB shell that [b]I couldn’t see while it was still painted[/b]

If you couldn't see the crack while it was painted then why do you think the seller could?

It's not as if he can just relist it (with a 'cracked' warning) either, as you've stripped the paint off it!

I'd be annoyed if I was in your position, but I wouldn't assume it was a scam from the beginning, nor would I expect a refund, maybe a contribution to getting it fixed (if possible).

How does leaving a BB in hide a crack??

Sounds like you were just unlucky

If it was me I would have thoroughly checked the frame over before selling, and wouldn't be happy ripping someone off.

How would you have done this without stripping the paint off to reveal the crack? Be reasonable.

These things happen..

I unwittingly sold a frame with a crack on it via the Classifieds. I hadn't spotted it when I stripped the frame, but the buyer sent me a photo, so I refunded him in full. It was slightly complicated as he'd sold the frame on without unpacking it, so I refunded him and he refunded his buyer.

In defence of the seller, if the frame has been resprayed and the crack was not visible - how would the seller know it was damaged?

Would he go back to the previous seller and ask for a refund? How far along the chain does it go?

I couldn't expect him to see it through the paint, but he did say this.

[img] [/img]

footflaps, did the buyer come and collect the frame in person?

From the OP:

After stripping the paint and removing the BB I noticed a crack in the BB shell that I couldn’t see while it was still painted.

Frankly; you tell us, in the quote above, that it was not visible before you removed the paint and bottom bracket.

I don't think that the seller can be blamed for this.

Original for sale thread is here

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/lapierre-zesty-frame-only-need-gone

That ultrasound was on the rear triangle, behind the bottom bracket,nowhere near your crack. Or am I missing something?

I am currently trying to get hold a member call "injured Flanker" who sold me a frame which on close inspection has 3 small cracks running from the seatpost slit and a dent on the weld of the downtube. I emailed him about this and he asked me to send him some photos and that he would never knowingly sell a cracked/damaged frame (to be fair they where hard to spot and could have easily been overlooked).
I sent him the photos and have had no reply for 3/4 weeks and he seems to have disappeared from the forum.
I have ended up spending £60 getting a frame repairer to weld the area on the seat tube, not best pleased!

footflaps, did the buyer come and collect the frame in person?

No, I posted it.

You wouldn't have spotted the crack till you assembled it and loaded the stays as it was held shut by the tension in the rear triangle, hence I missed it.

well the photo's on the pinkbike advert don't show any cracks, then again neither can you see the non-drive side very well. mrjmt has got it. Could all be entirly innocent, especially as the BB has been removed post sale..

He agreed to give me a full refund and arrange a courier to pick up the frame.

He agreed to refund, no excuses now.

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/lapierre-zesty-front-triangle ]oh dear[/url]

Looking at the ad on PB I wouldn't say he was trying to hide anything as there's lots of photos of the damage that was described. If you couldn't see the crack until you stripped it I don't see how he could be expected to. Even if I had access to the equipment I don't think it would ever occur to me to run an ultrasound against a frame before selling it!

Of course all of that could have been a cunning ruse to hide the additional damage he did know about, but that seems far fetched to me.

Tough position to be in, not sure what I'd expect. I'd hope for a refund but wouldn't expect it.

In the original PB ad he states:

Frame has been wrapped in frame tape when I bought it it a year ago by the local bike shop

1) He really doesn't look after his bikes if he did that much damage in a year.
2) Surely it's still warrantied? If so perhaps he can get it fixed/replaced under warranty and you both win.

Edit: Oh, perhaps just the LBS heli-taped it for him and he bought it second hand a year ago.

I take it back OP. He obviously knew all about it. That'll teach me to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

it may be that the seller advertised for a new front triangle to replace the cracked one for the buyer.

I'd say that legally the buyer has little recourse, however if the seller has offered to refund then he should honour that.

Good point, that'll teach me to give the benfit of the doubt to people i've given the benefit of the doubt to...or something like that.

The front triangle ad was after I had mentioned the crack and he said he would try to find a replacement to be fair.

I should have probably spotted it picking up the frame, all the photo's on pinkbike are on the driveside. I did have a look when i picked the frame up but the BB was quite grubby with chipped paint so it was difficult to spot the crack.

I still think after offering a full refund he should stick to his word.

I think the relevance of the BB being in the frame is well described in the thread linked to by the OP, its a press fit BB, which the seller said didn't need replacing and that was fitted by his LBS. Either he's not being honest or his LBS were unable to find a cracked BB shell when pressing the new BB in?!?
I know which I'm leaning towards. 😯

as already mentioned...hasn't the dispute moved on to honouring the promise of the refund?
If that was offered and accepted by the OP then that becomes part of the contract incorporated into the sale.
IMO.

He agreed to refund, no excuses now

honouring the promise of the refund?

he changed his mind, but is trying to squirm out of it rather than just be open about it?

If that was offered and accepted by the OP then that becomes part of the contract incorporated into the sale.

utter bobbins, as your

IMO

suggests. The refund offer was made after the sale and the seller has every right to change his mind about his goodwill. If the original ad included "money back guarantee if its found to have damage I havent disclosed" then you can start quoting theoretical contracts.

If I was the OP I'd be p1ssed off, and the seller hasnt covered themselves in glory, but I'm in the "havent got a leg to stand on" camp, unfortunately. Damage that can only be seen after paints been stripped off? How was the seller supposed to know about it then?

I think this is a case of you being unlucky and not checking it over fully.

Its sold as seen, its a risk buying a secondhand frame (and personally id have walked away from that vintage lapierre anyhow, never mind one in that state, hardly just been rode down tow paths has it!

Its hard luck really, just ride it till it goes fully, its not going to kill you or bung a banjo clip around the shell to hold it and stop it expanding too much. I wouldnt worry about looks as its destroyed already.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10004&t=12669282

If I was buying a bike I would at least do a little research before buying it.

EDIT: Please ignore me its 2009

Yes i heard about the BB cracking on the 2009 frames.

This frame was actually advertised as a 2009 frame when he emailed about it. Found out later it was a 2008.

Imo if he was happy to lie about the age of the frame, and going back on his word regarding the refund I have little doubt that he knew about the crack.

Lesson learn't. I won't bother buying a second hand frame again.

May be bought the frame in 2009 but was a 2008 model - not everyone keeps fully up to speed on the subtle differences on each year's model?

If the crack was not visible how would he know?

How have you approached the refund situation? Calmly or aggressively? Angry or assertive. All purely subjective of course but may be you said something you felt was reasonable but has royally pissed him off.

Looking at the advert posted for a replacement front triangle it looks like the seller is being pretty reasonable in trying to remedy but without a full transcript it is impossible to make a call either way.

Calmly, I said I will wait for him to get paid, and understand he has other commitments. I gave him over a month to get the money together and was promised to have it when he last got paid.

I said I will pack everything up to send myself, and just sort out a courier when you get paid.

More than fair really.

going back on his word regarding the refund I have little doubt that he knew about the crack.

Years ago I bought a titanium frame off ebay. Collected it from the seller too. And when I got it home - I discovered a crack in the bottom bracket. My bad for not examining it in the first place - but I raised an ebay dispute and it was judged as mis-described and I got my money back.

mudsux, why would you do that? As you said, you accepted that it was your fault.

mudsux, why would you do that? As you said, you accepted that it was your fault.

WTH?

I have been stung by a buyer over something similar recently. I sold a frame on eBay that was in good condition. The buyer received it and the set about stripping the paint off a perfectly good frame. He then emailed me saying there was a deep groove in the shock body and a dent in the chainstay. The dent was there for chainring clearance and the mark in the shock was not there when I sold it. How do I know this guy didn't set about stripping the frame with an electric sander or something?

I had been done over by superstar before when I modified an item that was broken on receipt. Legally I had not come back as by modifying it I had accepted the goods as they were. Stripping the frame has left you in the same situation- you have no right to a refund. The point about not seeing it until the paint was removed is also a good one- if you couldn't see it, how could the seller?

Suck it up and don't respray the next frame you buy.

But was the crack noticeable on a visual inspection as Ti is usually bare.

We have already established in this case that the crack was not obvious on a visual inspection and therefore to all intents and purposes taking in to account the good faith of the seller it was as described.

Munrobiker - Your story isn't really the same. You sold a frame and it was fine. This frame has a clear crack in it, and what looks like stress marks just next to the crack indicating (to me) that its been ridden for a while.

Don't respray a frame next time? I think thats what the seller wanted me to do, as soon as its ridden then I wouldn't have any come back at all?

I should have noticed the crack when I picked up the frame. You could probably still see it while the paint was still there but I didn't spot it. The paint around it was flaky and grubby, easy thing to miss.

Who removed that BB?

Sorry a crack like that would be visible to anyone who removed that BB. Its blindingly obvious.

I'm with the OP, the seller was obviously aware of the problem from when the bb was fitted, he didn't need to be able to see it!
Poor show by seller going back on the refund. Nice for him, he has his shiney new bike to ride around on while the OP is left out of pocket with a cracked frame.

mrjmt - Member

I think the relevance of the BB being in the frame is well described in the thread linked to by the OP, its a press fit BB, which the seller said didn't need replacing and that was fitted by his LBS. Either he's not being honest or his LBS were unable to find a cracked BB shell when pressing the new BB in?!?
I know which I'm leaning towards.

or it cracked whilst it was being smashed out...? Just saying like..

I removed the BB then spotted the crack. You could see the crack wasn't fresh, there was dirt in there already.

Stress marks towards the seatpost make it look like its been there a while to me, I would imagine its been creaking for a while.

Havent read the whole thing... but buying a 2008 Zesty and expecting it not to crack or be cracked... thats just what they do right?!?

Where would the dirt come from? Not from the bottom bracket and not from external as you say there was no crack when you bought it.

Sui - Member
mrjmt - Member
I think the relevance of the BB being in the frame is well described in the thread linked to by the OP, its a press fit BB, which the seller said didn't need replacing and that was fitted by his LBS. Either he's not being honest or his LBS were unable to find a cracked BB shell when pressing the new BB in?!?
I know which I'm leaning towards.
or it cracked whilst it was being smashed out...? Just saying like..

Maybe, but the stress marks would clearly indicate otherwise.

I feel sorry for the OP since he's out of pocket. But you've got to apply common sense when making such purchases. The frame was five years old, it looks like it's had a hard life, Lapierres are notorious for cracking etc.

It's just not worth the bother. The lifespan of lightweight long travel alu frames is probably about 3 years tops, that one seems to have done well to last till now with only a cracked BB.

I don't think the seller is absolved of any responsibility just because the buyer picked it up, or because they hadn't noticed any problem before they sold it,
It's not easy to find a crack when your picking a frame up, some cracks are semi hidden like the OP's, or that fine you can easily miss them during a cursory inspection, doing that while in a strange place with someone you don't know, and sorting money out as well isn't as foolproof as some make it out to be,
So IMO the OP deserves a refund..

I'm more surprised that a crack that big wasn't visible before.

Is it possible that there were only stress marks before the BB was removed and that the crack only happened as a result of the BB removal?

Either way, for what it's worth, this is the risk you take buying a second hand frame. Two mistakes have been made. The first was buying the frame in the first place, the second was the seller saying they'd offer a refund.

As you have stripped it ready for powder coating why not get it welded yourself. Probably wont cost that much. I guess the fiddly bit would be any heat treatment that was needed. Find a frame builder that deals in Aluminium and they should be able to sort it.

Who removed that BB?
Sorry [b]a crack like that[/b] would be visible to anyone who removed that BB. Its blindingly obvious.

Have I missed a picture of the bike being posted ?
I didn't think we had seen the cracked frame yet.

So IMO the OP deserves a refund..

But nobody knew it was cracked
You buy cheap second hand, collect in person, hand over money, end of

But nobody knew it was cracked

This is the key - does the OP believe the seller had no prior knowledge of the crack?

Equally, if the current buyer had sold it on - without knowledge of the crack - would they expect to refund the new owner? Would they go back to their seller?

Have I missed a picture of the bike being posted ?
I didn't think we had seen the cracked frame yet.

There is a link to the thread where he posted the pictures somewhere around here.

But nobody knew it was cracked

You buy cheap second hand, collect in person, hand over money, end of

Imo, suggest to sell to go 50/50 on the frame. He may be more inclined to refund half the money than it all.

Then chalk the other half up to experience,

Imo the biggest mistake you made was buying a frame in that condition. It looks SHAGGED, even without a close inspection.

Let alone the brand of the frame is known to be fragile.

Not saying it's your fault or it's right to sell dodgy goods, the seller should fully refund.

However you've now stripped the frame of paint which is why I suggest 50/50.

Or name shame + pitchforks etc

Here's the crack if you didn't see the thread.

[img] [/img]

Woody74 - I did ask about repair in my other thread, the general response was the frame is now scrap.

Plyphon - I agree, in the photo's the frame does look pretty grubby, but the rest of the frame is actually in very good condition. I was more concered about the marks on the chainstay when i went to look at it, but the photo's make it look worse than it is.

Once i cleaned it up.

[img] [/img]

Take it to a decent aluminium welder, get an opinion. it can be over welded & then the BB shell re-reamed to the correct tolerance. I wouldn't suggest it's scrap at all.

Plenty of high stress aluminium applications get re-welded when they crack. It's a bike frame.

Thanks, I will try and sort something out with the seller first. If I'm stuck with the frame I will look into welding.

This is the key - does the OP believe the seller had no prior knowledge of the crack?

It really makes no difference what the OP believes just as much as it makes no difference what the Seller 'knew'. The simple fact is he saw it, he bought it [i]and then proceeded to strip it of paint and knock out a press fit BB[/i]

Even before any of that you've got zero recourse; I mean what are you really going to do, take him to a small claims court over a second hand bike frame? Does anyone really have that kind of time?

Paint it, put BB in. Stick a jubilee clip round it. Ride it. See how long you get. It's not stopped working yet.

not ideal but how about getting someone weld a bmx bottom bracket holder into that shell.( DMR do them) Then weld the rest up and fit a three piece crank and a single chainring. The bmx bb should be much smaller in diameter and would enable the ring (or fixing shell to add material) - the bearings then tap in.

second thoughts - it does look bad..

Or a zip tie?

I agree with the 50/50 idea.

Good luck.

If we make the assumption that the seller didn't know about it then 50/50 seems ok, although even then I'd be peeved if I'd bought it

OP...please tell me you didn't pay 450 quid for a 5 year old frame?