You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27215508 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27215508[/url]
I'm far from knowing the facts about these things and I know this topic will have a full spectrum of opinions but I've always thought that if they must go through with something like this then why not use something that kills quickly....like cyanide?
Or is this topic understandably too much for the STW moderators?
Disturbing irony in that they tried to resuscitate him when it started to go wrong. "Make him better so we can kill him again!".
or a gun...
I saw the BBC headline; something along the lines of "man dies due to botched lethal injection.".
Isn't that a successful lethal injection?
Or a general anesthetic followed by a drug that stops the heart.
From my understanding of it, the cocktail they give them is *supposed* to be the most pleasant (in the circumstances) way to kill them - they first get something (basically a pre-med) to chill them out, then others to slow heart rate down etc, until they slowly and peacefully die.
However it isn't always like that...
[img] 
[/img]
I'm far from knowing the facts about these things and I know this topic will have a full spectrum of opinions but I've always thought that if they must go through with something like this then why not use something that kills quickly....like cyanide?
Europe has successfully banned their favoured lethal injection drug from being exported to the USA, hoping to stop lethal injections. However, the US is so obsessed with killing people they'll try any old set of random drugs....
[i]Lockett was sentenced to death for the 1999 shooting of a 19-year-old woman. Warner was convicted for the 1997 murder and rape of an 11-month-old girl.[/i]
Hope he suffered. A lot.
And in response to the op^
Hope he suffered. A lot.
Why? Does it make the world a better place? He's incarcerated, can't hurt anyone else. Why is a painful death a good thing?
while I cant say I have much pity for them
it was lockets execution that fuct up - the one who shot the 19 year old
and did they then halt warners ?- the one who killed and raped the baby
the other question is where they one of the 1 in 25 death row inmates that are innocent and sentenced to death by mistake
http://www.nature.com/news/death-penalty-analysis-reveals-extent-of-wrongful-convictions-1.15114
Why is a painful death a good thing?
Sadly people naturally conflate justice and revenge, especially for such awful crimes. 🙁
It can be very hard to rise above it.
[i]Why is a painful death a good thing?[/i]
If you really don't know, I can't explain it to you.
If you really don't know, I can't explain it to you.
Is that because there's no rational explanation for it that can sound palatable? It quenches your thirst for revenge, old testament eye for an eye type stuff.
Some of us like to rise above that and have some compassion and can separate justice and revenge.
a painful death for the killer does nothing to help the victim.
lock them up for life. there's no place for death row in the 21st century.
Michael Portillo did an excellent program on this.
Depends really whether you want to dispose of the criminal in a way that is least distressing for all concerned, or whether you think a bit of suffering as they go is no bad thing.
[not going into whether capital punishment is a good thing or not for the purposes of this discussion]
Cyanide, iirc, is very fast acting in the right concentrations, but in the short while to take effect, agonising, and in lower concentrations can lead to prolonged (minutes) of pain before they die.
Portillo concluded that nitrogen (or other inert gas) hypoxia is the best method. Like taking pilots to altitude and then getting them to take their masks off, they rapidly become disorientated, then almost drunk, and then unconcious and then finally hypoxic. He did similar in a barometric chamber to near unconciousness and described it as thoroughly pleasant.
[i]Is that because there's no rational explanation for it that can sound palatable? It quenches your thirst for revenge[/i]
Yeah, that's probably it (minus the bible stuff).
[i]Some of us like to rise above that and have some compassion and can separate justice and revenge.[/i]
Not me. Obviously.
It is amusing they tried to resuscitate
IIRC they also did this to someone who had a heart attack on the way there and brought them back to life so they could kill them
Its beyond satire
Some crimes are really heinous but that does not mean the state should commit a heinous death to balance it out.
Its either bad or it is not bad who does it is neither here nor there.
lock them up for life. there's no place for death row in the 21st century.
Here's an interesting side debate for the panel: there is a lot of talk about changing the law to allow a euthanasia option for people with long term degenerative disease.
Should prisoners who are locked up for life be granted the same option?
This would be a win/win for the condemned and spectators surely?
[img] 
[/img]
Pffft... I could totally no-handy that.
I haven't read the paper yet but supposedly statistical analysis has shown that 4 percent of death row inmates are innocent. So much for "beyond all reasonable doubt".
Awesome! What a wonderful world we live in.
Not me. Obviously.
Nor them. That's why they are where they are.
Given the inherent racism in the US justice system, I'd expect a much higher percentage of black inmates to be innocent...
Some of the quashed convictions (of death row inmates) are ridiculous, the police just picked up the first black kid they found and beat a confession out of them.
Why is a painful death a good thing?
Because some people get off on watching others suffer.
The few that have low levels of impulse control end up acting on it and carrying out murders, whilst the rest are happy to hear about or watch awful executions on the internet. Then they rationalise it by telling themselves that the person killed was bad.
Love the rollercoaster.
Revenge is an interesting thing, as is the judgement of a fellow human. I would be keen to know what has caused the greatest suffering - the crimes or the punishment for committing them...
DezB - Member
Is that because there's no rational explanation for it that can sound palatable? It quenches your thirst for revengeYeah, that's probably it (minus the bible stuff).
Some of us like to rise above that and have some compassion and can separate justice and revenge.
Not me. Obviously.
Me neither, sad as it may seem there are just folks on this planet that have no remorse nor compassion. Some of these folks are incarcerated in US Prison waiting on Death Row.
The punishment is linked to raised murder rates, from a public health perspective the death penalty doesnt work.
[i]I would be keen to know what has caused the most pain in terms of human suffering - the crimes or the punishment for committing them..[/i]
Really? And who would be most deserving of that suffering, in your view?
Oh, sorry, nobody? So who then would be most deserving of compassion?
IIRC victims' relatives, after watching Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma bomber) die said they felt none of the relief etc they had anticipated. Who'd have thought it?
I have to say I find the idea of wanting revenge for a crime that hasn't even affected you a little tragic and worrying.
Some of these folks are incarcerated in US Prison waiting on Death Row.
and some of the folks on death row are completely innocent!
whatnobeer - MemberIs that because there's no rational explanation for it that can sound palatable?
You could quite easily make a rational argument that torture of depraved criminals could be viewed as a deterrent. Not that I agree with the effectiveness of that rationale mind, but you could make a reasoned argument!
Me neither, sad as it may seem there are just folks on this planet that have no remorse nor compassion. Some of these folks are incarcerated in US Prison waiting on Death Row.
And some post on STW.
Oh, sorry, nobody?
Little point discussing if you're going to answer on my behalf, is there.
You need to calm down a bit, fella...
Given the inherent racism in the US justice system, I'd expect a much higher percentage of black inmates to be innocent...
Or as someone on the BBC comments section put it:
[i]"Any rich white people been executed in the U.S recently?"[/i]
Me neither, sad as it may seem there are just folks on this planet that have no remorse nor compassion.
I've never heard of this Lockett guy before now. All I know about his case is that when he was 23, he shot a 19 year old.
I don't know the situation around that killing, or whether he has shown any remorse in the 15 years since then.
So I'm a bit surprised at people saying they hope he suffered.
The whole capital punishment argument depresses me...let's get the crime issue out of the way - the guy who took 43 minutes to die in considerable distress was found guilty of burying his victim alive after raping her. There's no denying that the act was truly nasty and foul.
However, while our base instinct for revenge might be satisfied at the prospect of Lockett being subjected to a particularly nasty execution, we have to look at the wider issue of whether it is in the best interests of everyone if the state can decide whether an individual lives or dies.
Could any of you put an IV into a man's arm, deliver a lethal cocktail of drugs and then reconcile your actions with yourself afterward? How about if you went ahead with an execution anyway and then discovered further down the line that the original conviction had been unsafe and that you'd killed the wrong guy?
I couldn't do any of that and I'm not ashamed to admit it. It's worth reading up on Albert Pierrepoint - a long serving hangman who oversaw around 400 executions. He later concluded in his own memoirs that the threat of capital punishment was not a deterrent.
no rich white people have affluenza
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/affluenza-defense-probation-for-deadly-dwi_n_4430807.html
You could quite easily make a rational argument that torture of depraved criminals could be viewed as a deterrent.
I'd incarcerate them in a house with a peckish Eric Pickles, who they would then have to fight for every future morsel of food. Their favourite takeaways would be delivered every few hours, so the delicious smells would fill the house. But…. you've got to get past Pickles to get to them. And he's hungry!!!
I tell you…. my talents are wasted. I should be Minister for punishy things at the Home Office
[i]You need to calm down a bit, fella...[/i]
Sorry, do I not seem calm to you? 😆
clever to be able to read that much into a bit of text!
Lockett's lawyer, Madeline Cohen, who witnessed the execution, said her client "was tortured to death"
What about the girl he murdered love?
clever to be able to read that much into a bit of text!
Indeed, as you did with mine. Re-read it - I don't make a statement either way yet you decide that I'm already against revenge and all it entails.
Works both ways, sweetie...
binners - Member
You could quite easily make a rational argument that torture of depraved criminals could be viewed as a deterrent.
I'd incarcerate them in a house with a peckish Eric Pickles, who they would then have to fight for every future morsel of food. Their favourite takeaways would be delivered every few hours, so the delicious smells would fill the house. But…. you've got to get past Pickles to get to them. And he's hungry!!!I tell you…. my talents are wasted. I should be Minister for punishy things at the Home Office
hahaaha, binners for minister of justice! We could finally make reality tv interesting! 😀
How wishy-washy liberal is the following statement, because it tends to be the needle on my moral compass:
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".
If you can't kill everyone that abuses a child or murders an adult, don't kill anyone for that cause.
Edit: If binners gets to be Minister, can I play Malcolm?
dangerousbeans - MemberMe neither, sad as it may seem there are just folks on this planet that have no remorse nor compassion. Some of these folks are incarcerated in US Prison waiting on Death Row.And some post on STW.
And some don't, some are in prison waiting on death row. 😉
[i]What about the girl he murdered love?[/i]
Oh Hora, do rise above it. Cos that's where those compassionate darlings are, [i]up there[/i].
What about the girl he murdered love?
Given the corruption and racism inherent in the US justice systm, how can you be sure that he did with that level of certainty.
hora - MemberWhat about the girl he murdered love?
it would be interesting to know what her family felt, Im assuming they were watching
If that was my daughter, I would not want them incarcerated for life. Unless it was a very very short life with an unpleasant end. I doubt I'd be particular rational about much of anything to do with the accused.
Which is probably a very good argument against the death penalty TBH.
You could quite easily make a rational argument that torture of depraved criminals could be viewed as a deterrent.
Whats better is you dont even need it to do it to the guilty as long as it is sufficiently bad to deter others #philosophy
What about the girl he murdered love?
It was bad - murdering people is bad...doing it in a slow painful way is worserer
It is irrelevant who is doing the murdering
Really? And who would be most deserving of that suffering, in your view?Oh, sorry, nobody? So who then would be most deserving of compassion?
Who are you to decide between who's more deserving of compassion, the killers family or the victims? Why is the loss of one man for one familty less than another, both losses will cause the same level of anguish amongst their respective families.
If I wasn't a ****ing atheist I swear to god I'd move in with some buddhists in some far flung province of Tibet.
it would be interesting to know what her family felt, Im assuming they were watching
The liberal would like to think they were horrified.
The hardened-thinker would like to think they felt it was a chapter closed/job done.
If it was me- who knows. I do remember the Russian Father who turned up on the doorstep of a Swiss air traffic controller and killed him over the death of his two children though.
Would I be vengeful too? Who knows. None of us do unless we personally have been placed in that EXACT situation.
I wasn't talking about their families, tom.
Many of us would be vengeful the problems is that that is not justice
many folk would happily kill folk who stole minor value items of property but it would not be justice it would be revenge
then someone else has to revenge that murder and so the cycle continues
Someone has to break it
How would I react ?I dont know but years later i would like to think I would not turn up to see the death Days later i would probably do it myself. It is why they keep the victims out of the justice system.
In light of cases in Afghanistan, if a prison guard had gone in the chamber and shot him to end his suffering, would it be murder?
This would be a win/win for the condemned and spectators surely?
And they could incorporate it with the last meal....
[img] 
?type=articleLandscape[/img]
The liberal would like to think they were horrified.The hardened-thinker would like to think they felt it was a chapter closed/job done
Not much of a thinker, ey? I should imagine if they didn't like him they wouldn;t have turned up!
Heres another.
“For a quarter of an hour," the statement reads, "Mr. McGuire suffered horribly, in front of his wife and children, from pain and panic caused by drug-induced breathing distress.
I think this is apt
Are you righteous? Kind? Does your confidence lie in this? Are you loved by all? Know that I was, too. Do you imagine your sufferings will be less because you loved goodness? Truth? - The Thin Red Line
I get the feeling that a lot of people support the death penalty because they feel some entitlement to revenge, they have been good people and have followed the rules....woe is me etc.
The hardened-thinker would like to think they felt it was a chapter closed/job done.
You'd like to think that - but as mentioned above that isn't how it pans out.
One thing in all of this is:
What does the person(s) doing the killing on behalf of the USGovt actually think about a) this incident b) other killings they do on prisoners etc.
This argument can rage/enrage, a great many people died at the hand of Hitlers henchmen and yet no remorse (or hardly any recorded remorse) has ever been shown, this incedent suggests that Humans choose to inflict death on others, either legally or not, either by injection whether guilty or not, or by gassing or shooting etc. ad nausium.
Not wanting to link this particular incident to the killing of the Teacher in Leeds, but the questions will surely rage on about the treatment of the murderer, 15yr old Child.
Awful, but Humans are.
Oh Hora, do rise above it. Cos that's where those compassionate darlings are, up there.
I am not talking about compassion, I am trying to be realistic.
It is generally accepted that some people found guilty actually aren't (perhaps you dispute that) and I don't like the idea of say one in twenty people dieing in pain when actually innocent to ensure we get the 19 really guilty ones (perhaps you think this is an acceptable number).
Also I find it a bit odd to say that those lacking compassion/remorse should be killed horribly as that puts you either in the same category as them. Or you want someone the same as them to do the act on your behalf (which seems rather cowardly to me).
Speaking as someone who has killed someone, albeit by accident, and having worked with some killers and victims I think it can be difficult to separate emotions from what should be practically done.
I would prefer that those found guilty of such crimes be incarcerated indefinitely in order to protect society and to allow the truly innocent ones to mount a robust legal challenge even if it means that money and time is wasted on those who are guilty.
If I was ever accused and convicted of a crime I had not committed then that is what I would want.
I would not want a system that killed me painfully (or at all) in order to ensure they got the guilty ones too.
interesting article
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/oklahoma-former-prison-warden-death-penalty-does-not-help-families
The liberal would like to think they were horrified.
I like to think I'm a liberal person, if it were my family he had killed I'd stab him to death with a knitting needle given the chance, but as pointed out above that wouldnt be the point. I'm glad in this country we dont have executions and we have judges to do sentencing not angry relatives.
Junkyard - lazarusIt is irrelevant who is doing the murdering
I think it's much worse if the state is doing it.
It is generally accepted that some people found guilty actually aren't (perhaps you dispute that)
see the study I linked to above- 1 in 25 sentenced to death in the USA are innocent
Anyway, I think that someone that has been proved to be guilty of such crimes should be put to death, not painfully, not because of any eye-for-an-eye retribution, but simply because someone capable of that sort of crime has no place in society. So, instead of keeping them locked up at vast expense for many years, they should be removed from society.
However, I am sure I read somewhere that the cost of execution is very high so that might mitigate my argument somewhat...
Yip, ultimately that's the crux of it all, especially when looking at the US justice system, which is ultimately, a money making enterprise. Well i wouldn't have confidence in it at all. History is littered with people who have been incarcerated unjustly.Junkyard
Whats better is you dont even need it to do it to the guilty as long as it is sufficiently bad to deter others #philosophy
Never mind me being completely against the death penalty anyhow as psychotic/depraved criminals generally don't weigh up the consequences before they act, so it's an extremely limited deterrent at best.
Speaking as someone who has killed someone
Did you feed them some of those Dangerousbeans?
Compassion.
We are part of nature. We are all creatures, we are not creations of a higher being. Nature is both beautiful but also very cruel.
We seek order in our lives/have a civilised framework that lets everyone co-exist in peace. This doesn't mean we should be fearful of vengeance and rightful retribution for those who odd beings who dont have a place in society.
No, its coffee I drink BTW 😉
However, I am sure I read somewhere that the cost of execution is very high so that might mitigate my argument somewhat...
Somewhat? Even with the ridiculous amounts the yanks spend on appeals etc, they still end up murdering innocent people on death row.
Can you imagine the carnage of innocents if the Daily Mail types got their way here and had us go all Iranian? Humans cannot be trusted with deciding on another mans life.
We are part of nature. We are all creatures, we are not creations of a higher being. Nature is both beautiful but also very cruel.We seek order in our lives/have a civilised framework that lets everyone co-exist in peace. This doesn't mean we should be fearful of vengeance and rightful retribution for those who odd beings who dont have a place in society.
Naturalistic fallacy.
Did you feed them some of those Dangerousbeans?
Shouldn't lol but I did, compassionless person that I am.
Enough of this thread, it's stressing me now. Off to sort out the wife's bike.
surely jamming tnt up his arse would be the better method and exploding the filthy shitbag
You could quite easily make a rational argument that torture of depraved criminals could be viewed as a deterrent.
Wouldn't stand up to an statistical analysis though. (Perceived) probability of being caught has a correlation but severity of punishment doesn't correlate well.
I seriously disagree with the death penalty - it doesn't serve as a deterrent (because people would have to be thinking rationally at the time of their crime, to weight up the consequences, and those that commit crimes 'worthy' of the death penalty are incapable of rational thought) and it doesn't bring closure to families of victims.
However, I do think those convicted of the most horrid crimes should be locked-up with no chance of parole - and a be working 12 hour days while they're in there.
The American justice system is barely any better than Arabic savages chopping peoples heads off.
I seriously disagree with the death penalty - it doesn't serve as a deterrent (because people would have to be thinking rationally at the time of their crime, to weight up the consequences, and those that commit crimes 'worthy' of the death penalty are incapable of rational thought) and it doesn't bring closure to families of victims.
Wow that is one very large generalisation . If that argument were true surely nobody would ever be convicted of anything more than manslaughter .
Arabic savages chopping peoples heads off
😯
Wow that is one very large generalisation . If that argument were true surely nobody would ever be convicted of anything more than manslaughter .
Scary huh, that people like psychopaths might not be accountable for their actions given that it's a neurological disease.
Although the argument that he appeared to be making was that people don't act rationally when they intend to kill someone, they don't think of the consequences. Thus, detterents don't work.
So how about , for example , the man who plans to kill his wife to cash in on her life insurance . How about Harold Shipman , Timothy McVeigh and plenty of others .
I believe they've been forced to change the drug combination because they can no longer get hold of phenobarbital from the Danish supplier.
Is this the world's sole manufacturer? I doubt it.
Anyway. I have a solution.
Midazolam followed by the execution suite being purged with nitrogen.
Lights out every time.
Back to the OP. Why didn't they call the local vet?
Its not a deterrent is it.
Thats not the point. Its about Punishment.
Of course deterrence works, that's why there are no crimes in the USA. Oh ... hang on a mo ...
The American justice system is barely any better than Arabic savages chopping peoples heads off.
Comments like this betray a basic ignorance about the nature of the USA.
Not all the states have the death penalty for the crime of murder, along with many other offences. Drinking alcohol, for instance. Illegal in Kentucky - legal in California.
One should always remember, the USA is more a collection of semi-independent countries. It's not the UK!