[Closed] Boiler condemned - advice needed

Was it SSE that 'condemned' it?

Get a local gas safe guy out. Worst case scenario you need a new boiler and it'll cost a grand less than the SSE quote. And guess what - sole traders can fit a boiler at short notice too! Under a day work.

Sounds pricey to me to my non specialist mind, at least get another quote.

We had a new boiler in with our extension a couple of years back 4bed, 3reception,2 bathroom house and boiler figure was comfortably under that iirc.

Can you get a new case as a spare part, and get the supply rerouted correctly?

Our British Gas fitter told us where and what boiler to buy and he then fitted it. Valiant Ecotech 28 was 750 plus vat and 1200 fitting by BG.

This is why I avoid getting the boiler serviced in winter.

as suggested, new case, route cables correctly.

What boiler out of interest I'll look up the case price if you like.

Couple of things:

Seems a bit fishy to me as I've never seen a boiler with air tight casing. Get a decent local guy to come and take a look.

Call the boiler manufacturer and send them photos, they might be able to suggest a fix or maybe an IP rated cable gland would suffice?

Your solicitor should have obtained a copy of the gas safe installation certificate. Sounds like they have missed something. Also the person who serviced the boiler should have noticed, check that they are gas safe registered as if not there is an offence there too.

This is why I avoid getting the boiler serviced in winter.

Indeed - I'm blaming the wife for this one! It was a local gas safe guy who came out this morning and he would be getting the work if he hadn't quoted a 4 week wait on his availability.

Nippers pricing sounds about same figure I've been quoted. I was surprised fitting would be so expensive. I'll definitely try and get another local quote; its just SSE were quick to get out.

Would labour charges on new case also be high - assume its pretty much a new install when you replace that?

The casing on a gas boiler isn't supposed to be airtight. It's a metal box to hide the stuff inside. Can you post up a photo?

[quote=Flaperon ]The casing on a gas boiler isn't supposed to be airtight. It's a metal box to hide the stuff inside. Can you post up a photo?

The casing on my old (1990 install) Potterton boiler is required to be airtight due to the ventilation design. Modern boilers probably don't have this flaw!

http://www.miketheboilerman.com/Netaheat.htm

See "Safety Warning:" section 🙂

Will upload pics once i get wee man in bed. Its a Vaillant Ecotec 612.

The casing on a gas boiler isn't supposed to be airtight. It's a metal box to hide the stuff inside. Can you post up a photo

Surly the case being air tight would be more dangerous, as any leaking gas would get trapped inside

There is no way that casing is airtight (assuming it's the plus model here):

Get some pics up. Call gas safe and tell them everything as if it's been done by a dodgy installer then they will want to know and may well help you with getting it looked at again and if the SSE guy is trying it on they may also be interested in that.

Does sound like a bollocks overreaction to me. Surely the burner is in a sealed box and if the outer casing needs to be sealed (some sort of flue balancing thing?) then that can be sorted with sealing around the cable hole?

Pics

Main unit with cover off;
[img] [/img]

Electricity feed is being the electronics panel;
[img] [/img]

Hole drilled for cable;
[img] [/img]

Seems a bit drastic to get a new boiler because the casing has a hole drilled in it.

That bottom panel should be available separately, I could check if I was at work., but as you say it may be a ball ache to change over. Had a quick look at install instructions and it looks like the cable should come in on the left and through to the control box at the front. I have no idea if this would pass a gas safe inspection but is it not possible for reroute the cable correctly and use some silicone to bung the hole up?

1200 quid for fitting is an absolute piss take! Just had my plumber supply and fit a new boiler for my dad for 1200 quid.

I'm no boiler expert but I really struggle to see why that would condem the boiler. I'd be speaking to vailents tech support before committing to a new boiler.

Is the other side of that hole just on the outside of the boiler case or is there some sort of box section there ?

British gas condemned and disconnected our one year old boiler for the same reason. Ironically fitted by my wifes heating engineers. The casing is supposed to be somewhat air tight, however this is really only a secondary precaution in case the boiler malfunctions and starts spewing out carbon monoxide. It should go out the flue not into the room. Just seal around the cables, silicon or similar or better still get some grommets. Then find a more sensible person to service it.

Are you kidding!!!!!???
There's nothing wrong with that!!
Did the guy who condemned that give you a warning notice?
I will drop in and sort it out if you are local.

WTF? Fit a grommet/gland or silicone it up!
It is very bad form running cable through a hole drilled in metal without one, but if all the gas safe bloke is concerned about is tightness, bloody seal it up or even reroute the cable and seal the hole!
Jeez.

New boiler not required, fit one of these - ( http://www.screwfix.com/p/tower-male-comp-gland-white-20mm-pack-of-2/45943) and have it serviced by someone else.

Thanks for the replies. Based on what you're saying I'd agree it does seem overkill, which I guess is the dilemma. If I've got one Gas Safe registered engineer saying it needs to be condemned, who is then in a position of authority to say they were wrong? Do I just keep getting out engineers until I find one who agrees with my view?

I've emailed the pics to Vaillant but will try and speak to them in the morning too. I'll also give Gas Safe a call and see what advice they can provide.

Once it's been "condemned" then good luck finding someone who will sign off a repair to an original bodge. Massive ass-covering will come into play.

Tbh he's right, whether you think its stupid or not. Send an email to vaillant they may or may not approve a grommet. Ideal have done in the past, wheres remeha wouldn't for a problem that was created by a design flaw.

I'm not so sure that that the case doesn't form part of the balancing chamber for combustion on that boiler, think it is the case with the spring clips and also the case has a foam seal on it from memory.

If that is the case then yes that hole would condemn the boiler as it forms part of the combustion chamber.

gas safe are your freind, theyll ivestigate dodgy practices and overcharging for the sake of it, also sse probably get commision for every boiler they sell install. Did he actually speak to Valliant, or his boss pretending to be Valliant.

I had an issue with gas safe/corgi over a cert etc. Appalling to deal with, seemed to side step all help. My local council however brought the fitter to task very quickly.

OP if I had your situation I'd be calling in a second opinion. Even if an extra £70 confirmed the other blokecwas right it's piece of mind over a big rectifying spend.

ok , assuming that the air around the boiler forms an airtight pre- combustion chamber , then look on ebay for a Gas safe engineer to do a like for like swap ( I paid £550 this way , incl a machine power flush ). then source a combi for the bst price , either WB , Vailiant or Ideal appear to be the current favs's.

Or Buy a new outer case and get a Gas safe or NIC certified sparky to supply the juice without drilling a massive hole in it .

Simples.

It is just a bit of metal - undoing the bodge and making it airtight should be perfectly possible. Replacing a functioning quality boiler of that age is madness.

And you are being ripped off on the fitting. We had a new Worcester Bosch combi installed last week (in place of old one but needed some pipe mods, new flue hole etc). Easy single day job and £150 for labour. All in with new (expensive) boiler, filter, chemicals, longer flue, pipes VAT etc less than £1500.

I understand your urgency as we just managed a week without any heating or hot water (it gets easier after a few days). Kettle took some hammer (be careful with the 2 yr old and all that boiling water) and a couple of £20 2kW convector heaters from B&Q were surprisingly effective!

Who says its a rip off price just because you got some moron to fit yours for £150?

Am I missing something? It's a small hole. Disconnect the wire, pull it out, route the wire properly and repair the hole.

I'm really not trying to be obtuse but I cannot see any reason that can't be really simply fixed.

Who says its a rip off price just because you got some moron to fit yours for £150?

No I got a trusted Gas safe registered and well established local guy to fit mine for his regular northern england day rate of £150. Only downside was waiting a week (as he was busy on other jobs, like all good tradesmen). And as I understand what was involved in the job I did all possible prep beforehand to make his work quick and easy.

£2300 for a straight combi swap is a rip off.

Well I'm regular northerner too 😉 Minimum £500 atm to swap a combi plus materials and sundries.

Good for him if he can make that work but I know lads that at the higher end of the scale are getting £1200 a combi swap + Boiler and materials (Granted their few and far between).

If it helps,

AFAIK, "condemned" means "can't switch it back on until it's fixed" rather than "you need a new one." My system's been condemned several times.

My system's been condemned several times.

That's useful to know. He's marked it as Immediately Dangerous so from the Gas Safe site it does seem a repair could be acceptable. I'll see if they can confirm what an acceptable repair would be but hopefully just re-routing and fill the bodge.

‘Immediately Dangerous’ (ID)
An “immediately dangerous” installation is one which, if operated or left connected to a gas supply, is considered to be an immediate danger to life or property.

The installation will be disconnected, with your permission, and must not be used until the necessary work has been carried out to repair the defect(s). If you continue to use an immediately dangerous installation you could be putting you or your family’s lives in danger.

Gas safe can't do anything. Vaillant and Vaillant alone will be the only ones going to be able to make a decision. They may even offer to do a repair/ replace the bottom panel Although Im not sure its removable on this model.

I take it the engineer has capped the gas supply at present?

That Boiler has a negative pressure case so don't worry too much.
The gas engineer was correct in applying a safety notice as the integrity of the combustion seal has been compromised, however, as I said above the boiler is negative pressure so air is going in rather than fumes coming out.

If your gas fitter were to take a pragmatic approach he would seal the inappropriate cable entry with a non setting compound (FJC,or equivalent) and all would be fine.

Having said that, there are 3 cable entry points on the bottom of that boiler, so why the installer decided to drill (or let his ****less sparky drill it!!) is beyond me.

If you do have a new boiler fitted, I'll give you 20 quid for the old one,,, 😉

FWIW used BG as for fitting just for peace of mind - too much of a faf trying to rely on local plumbers etc.

As a gas safe engineer I would say at worst it's Not To Current Standards. Believe me I've seen much much worse than that. Reroute and repair seems a good option and there's no harm in speaking to Gas Safe or Vaillant tech for their opinion.

Sheesh is that it?

Ask vallient if it would be okay to have the wire rerouted and the hole permanently sealed with something like a piece of metal epoxied in place, both sides if they want belt and braces.

Worse case is replace that panel, might be a bit of ball ache but still got to be cheaper than a new boiler.

As for people suggesting £1200 + boiler is acceptable for a boiler change....simply ridiculous.

Seems a bit fishy to me as I've never seen a boiler with air tight casing

The old Potterton Nettaheat are air tight and have to be as they are positive pressure, so any leak and CO escapes into the room. Although this design is no longer allowed, and [b]all new boilers have to be negative pressure,[/b] so any leak just sucks air into the boiler [b]i.e. a leak isn't a safety risk at all[/b].

Getting British Gas to fit your boiler is fair enough as long as you're happy that you've been totally screwed for price. 😈

new boilers have to be negative pressure, so any leak just sucks air into the boiler i.e. a leak isn't a safety risk at all.

New boilers aren't all negative pressure.

Negative pressure until certain fault situations arise.

Order a replacement cable entry point from the manufacturer and install in place of the hole made by the bodged entry ( I assume the manufacturers ones are cable glands)

Therefore the 'fix' would comply with the original designs certification.

Bit of an update. I can see this all going badly!

Spoke to Vaillant this morning and they are sending an engineer tomorrow so that I can get a second opinion from one of their guys. I've had to sign up to a service policy but it's no fix, no fee, so hopefully will be a positive outcome.

Only concern is that the Vaillant guys can't actually re-commission the boiler. They're allowed to perform repairs, re-connect the gas and test it, but then they have to cap it off again and somebody else has to commission it. That surely can't be normal!?

Manufacturers state clearly that boilers and components should be installed and fitted exactly to their design specification. Any alteration, modification or incorrect installation practice will void any warranty and could present a dangerous situation. Gas safe also states manufacturers installation instructions are to be followed above all other instructions.
Therefore, if the moron who fitted your boiler had looked at the installation manual, he would have seen the correct location for cable entry to the connection points.
Having said that. There's no reason why a permanent repair to the hole should not be performed and as long as it can be shown to bring the casing back to the manufacturers original spec. I would be happy to reconnect it.

Update?

Making progress! Vaillant engineer was very helpful yesterday but was unable to resolve without running it past the product team first. Have heard back from them this evening and they've agreed that a repair can be performed; reroute the cable to the correct location and then repair the hole by drilling to 20mm to fit one of the original spec grommets. They'll come back as soon as that has been done.

Incidentally I did get another quote for replacement and it came in at £1300, showing just how crazy the sse price was.

Still a few cold nights to go but looking like the right result.

Chancing ****ers.

Nice one, I should've mentioned I'm a newly qualified plumber & gas engineer, and just getting into boiler repairs so was wondering.

£1300 sounds about right for a supply and fit, we charge around £400 labour for a like for like swap over and normally done in a day.

Fuxhutchinsun - re Remeha our seven year old Advanta Plus boiler was 'condemned' on Tuesday (15/3) by a British Gas engineer due to the manufactured hole in the base of the casing (back right) that appears to have no purpose: although it is clearly shown in the installation manual (but with no guidance as to purpose or part supplied to block it). The boiler is condemned 'until further notice' while the engineer tries to source a part. He said he spoke to the manufacturer who confirmed that the casing should be sealed, but was unable to supply anything to block the hole. I spoke with Remeha in the UK, who seemed to think they had also spoken to our engineer, and they advised sticking some aluminium tape above and below the hole.

Our boiler has been serviced annually and also had some repair work done over the years without this being picked up. I don't know how well sealed it is meant to be as it has leaked through the casing (not the offending hole)in the past, and the engineer came this time to deal with a leak.

Any background knowledge/advice regarding this situation would be gratefully received.

The message I'm receiving from all of this is never to get my boiler serviced.

The message I'm receiving from all of this is never to get my boiler serviced.

[quote=johnners ]The message I'm receiving from all of this is never to get my boiler serviced.

...in winter 🙂

gears suck - the previous leak was in a pipe joint, although was only sorted after the (British Gas) engineer had visited several times and replaced another part first. This time he thinks it is the heat exchanger (as the water seemed to be below this) so he's replacing the heat exchanger as well as intending (somehow) to plug the hole. We have a service and repairs contract with British Gas.

When I spoke to Remeha they were pretty non committal regarding the fact there may be a number of Remeha boilers out there with a hole in the casing - "there might be, there might not be". It seems strange that this situation could occur, particularly as, on paper, the boiler seems to have been fitted in line with the manufacturers' instructions...

[b]Beans[/b] With a heavy heart. Your first mistake was buying a Rhema boiler. [url= http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html ]Reviews here.[/url] The second was employing British Gas to do anything to it.
Sorry for your woes but by now I would have thought their reputation should finally be starting to precede them.

I wouldn't trust british gas to flush my bog. Sad thing is many old people still think they're the gas board and therefore the only people who can help them.

Having been through all that isn't that a big gaping hole between the two copper feeds ?

New boiler fitting is a complete rip off. They always install in a day so at most labour should be £250 ( that's a good day rate ). God knows why it is always nearer £1000. We paid £2300 for local plumber to fit a decent sized boiler for 4 bedroom house.

Plumber recommended the boiler when we had work done in 2008 - although not British Gas he was pretty dodgy too.

Where do we get a good plumber? We're in South Northamptonshire.

woody74 - Member

New boiler fitting is a complete rip off. They always install in a day so at most labour should be £250 ( that's a good day rate ). God knows why it is always nearer £1000. We paid £2300 for local plumber to fit a decent sized boiler for 4 bedroom house.

[img] [/img]

Not sure what that means. Is it your mom and dad getting ready to pay for the new boiler?

I'd be interested to know what the daily rate is for people who make handbags, and if they make designer handbags is it more? 😯

What's a 'Mom'? Is it a bit like 'Mum' but for Yankeeeeeees?

Well final update from me, as finally as of this evening all is sorted. Not without some final dramas though.

After Vaillant agreed on a suitable repair I managed to get an electrician out on Monday to reroute and extend the cable to correct place and sort out the hole that had been drilled.

Vaillant then came back out today to reconnect the boiler, only to find that the guy who ID'd it in the first place had also ****ed one of the pipes trying to cap it off. Long story short I then had to get another local company to come and sort that out, only for them to then find the electrician hadn't quite wired it up correctly which they did resolve.

In total it's taken best part of 2 weeks to resolve but at least it hasn't cost us too much in the end. Thanks everyone for the advice.

I trust you won't be paying the donkeys who did the half arsed work?

Vaillant then came back out today to reconnect the boiler, only to find that the guy who ID'd it in the first place had also ****ed one of the pipes trying to cap it off. Long story short I then had to get another local company to come and sort that out, only for them to then find the electrician hadn't quite wired it up correctly which they did resolve

chuffin 'ell. You need to find a decent plumber/gas person and electrician and keep their numbers. I used to use one company in Bristol for all my gas and electric works. They were a big local company who charged slightly more than a little local guy who "might" do it right but did a very professional job every time.