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none whatsoever.
The point of it is that it saves the Labour councillors and party from having to admit that the SNP were right all along.
At least they, the council as a whole, didnt vote to borrow another £1/4bn with the same in interest payments.
And people wonder why the SNP are so popular.
Saucer of cream Druidh? 🙂
you 3 actually live together don't you? give TJ the Evening News back Glupton, you've had it long enough.
Now that really is a bonkers decision. Either scrap it or build a meaningful route. Only going to Haymarket is just useless. At the very least you have to go into the centre of town.
It follows earlier news that bosses overseeing the project had admitted they had overestimated the cost of cancelling the scheme.
What kind of organisation "estimates" the cost of cancelling a scheme as costly as this one? That is just not a credible way of doing things. If you're going to cost cancelling a contract like that you get definitive figures, you dont pluck things out of your arse.
At the least the cooncil are getting to **** us over and they know that they're using the Edinburgh contraceptive.
"getting off at the Haymarket"
There are already tram-like vehicles running from Haymarket to the airport. They're called buses.
How have the people "managing" this project not been fired for gross incompetence?
OK, it doesn't particularly affect me, I used to travel in and around Edinburgh quite a bit (much less so now thankfully) but seeing the catastrophic stupidity displayed by so many people throughout the whole sorry debacle is beyond belief. I live in Manchester and they built a city-wide network (in fact one of the most extensive tram networks in the UK) for the same price. 😯
As an aside (lived in Edinburgh for a few years when at uni), why does almost every bus have to run through Princess street? I mean, really?
Back to the op tho.. The whole thing seems to have been a shambles.
Made me laugh that Princess street will need to be closed again so they can dig up the bloody tracks cos apparently, they'll be a health and safety issue!!! (rofl!).
I agree its one hell of a cluster**** of gargantuan proportions, even for the Edinburgh city fathers/mothers but Ill bet a pound to a penny that all of the same incompetent cooncilors will be elected by the people next time the elections come round, no matter how much this would have cost the Councillors know that they will pretty much all be in a job next time.
[img] 
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This is an utter waste and shambles. F'wits.
why does almost every bus have to run through Princess street? I mean, really?
Because it's tricky to route a bus coming from East, West or South through the centre that *doesn't* involve running along Princes St at least at some point. The A8, A9, A700, A900, A1 and A7 all converge on Princes St. You can't run much through the Old Town. You can't run much down the West End of Queen St.
Er, I accept that a lot of the main roads converge in the centre but it's not the case that all the buses(mostly) HAVE to go along Princess street- there are other routes from one side to the other. North and south of the city centre...
It is about ten years since I lived there but I doubt it's changed much!!
there are other routes from one side to the other. North and south of the city centre...
Not really sure what you're suggesting in that case - the buses that do go through the city centre mostly go down Princes St because that's the natural route, and that buses that don't go through the city centre already don't go down Princes St because they don't go through the city centre!
And if you routed buses that currently go down Princes St so they ran "north and south of the city centre", then they wouldn't go through the city centre any more, which is no good for people who want to use them to go to the city centre.
Edit: by which I mean, if they go through the centre, Princes St is going to be a natural or even unavoidable route for them. And if they don't go need to run through the centre, they don't need to go down Princes St, but Edinburgh's a pretty centralised city and I suspect most of the people on existing bus routes through the centre do actually begin/end their journey in the centre. But I might be wrong.
I have posted this before but the cooooncil have a long and well practiced tradition of late, overbudget and crap delivery on projects. This cutting from 1955/56 apologises for late introduction of the busses when the trams were removed as well as the cheap way of replacing the tram lines with tarmac.
Found in our house when we took the carpet up...
[img] 
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I was in Granton and Pilton yesterday for business (not pleasure!)
What a disgrace - those tenements make HMP Barlinnie look like a doll's house
The worst ones have been knocked down and replaced with houses
Isn't this just yet another example of politicians and their vanity projects
It comes down to a basic inability to see any connection between the huge figures with all the naughts on the end of it, and the actual money that comes out of the [s]mugs[/s] taxpayers wagepackets.
See also: the Dome, the Scottish Parliament Building, Every Olympic Venue, etc etc etc
seriously? the worst are away? In some isolated pockets in Glasgow you still see some of the horrendous inter-war housing but most has been completely modernised or demolished.
I was surprised by the scale of the Granton and Pilton estate. The tenements look ten times worse than anything in Wester Hails or Muirhouse. They have tried to tart them up by painting the masonry and, in some cases, overrendering but that was the first time i've ventured into that area and it was a genuine shock that there were still so many blocks like that in occupation.
That should be a national scandal - especially with the obscene cost of property just two miles away in the new town - not to mention the trams, the parliament and the money ploughed into the waterfront. 😡
Pretty much binners.
Edinburgh s badly congested and needs a decent integrated transport system. However this is not a decent integrated transport system. Its not even the basis for one. Its been compromised to uselessness.
A question to people who live in Edinburgh, Why didn't they just put a spur off the railway line which runs right past the airport to a new station at the airport? (not trolling, just curious...seems like an obvious thing to do?)
with al locked away in the garage with just his cutlery and some glue ?GW - Member
you 3 actually live together don't you?
lodious - no idea at all.
There were plans to do this but it would be expensive.
The obvious thing to have done would have been to do that and have trams that can also use the railway lines like in Manchester. That and reopen the north and south suburban circular lines - the south one still has the rails!
Then we would have got the basis for an integrated transport solution.
It should be possible to get a train from stirling, edinburgh or Glasgow direct to the airport. its certainly possible to build this
What is it with the Scots and spensive construction projects? Parliament- [i]seventy five thousand[/i] times over budget. And crap. Tram project- not actually all that useful apparently and going to cost over a billion quid.
And you want independence?
When you've spunked all the oil and gas money in about, oh, 3 years or so on stupid daft stuff like this, what are you going to do to for an income? Knit jumpers?
We will sell happiness to you poor unhappy southerners
Eh? How d'you work that out? Youse are the most miserable people in England! 😆
You'duv bin better off investing the money in umbrellas and tarpaulin sheeting...
Want to buy some water?
Elfin, what were you saying about self moderation?
The whole sordid affair is a complete embarrassment. Having recently visited Germany where most town/cities have a decent integrated transport system this nonsense seems to be nore than a bit incompetent. Councillors, Government and the contractors have to share the blame. We deserve better than this shambles.
Think of how much a decent system would cost if managed in the same fashion by the same clowns?
A decent system would have trams going to all the outlying suburbs as well as tourist destinations and hospitals.
No thanks we have plenty down here at the moment ta.
Elfin, what were you saying about self moderation?
Sorry; it just seemed too good an opportunity to miss. 😀
No seriously though; seems there's an awful lot of argue going on in the Scottish parliament, and over stuff that affects only a relatively small amount of people. Granted, we spunk a lot of money down here in That London, but stuff like the DLR and Croydon Tram, link are actually of benefit to people, and there's a lot more people down here who use stuff. The DLR is a very successful transport system, which cost relatively peanuts compared to the Edinburgh Tram system, and serves far more people than the ET ever will, too.
And our Parliament will still be standing long after the Scottish one has fallen down...
A decent system would have trams going to all the outlying suburbs as well as tourist destinations and hospitals.
Like Manchester for example? You really don't need to go to Germany.
I've heard that in 'that London' they have carriages without horses that run under the very ground itself. What kind of evil is this?
I've heard that in 'that London' they have carriages without horses that run under the very ground itself. What kind of evil is this?
This is very true, Binners, and it's nothing to be afraid of, simply a wonder that exceeds your mental capacity to understand.
Fear not; come suck on the teat of blissful oblivion...
Isn't that route only 2 miles long?
You lot are funny.
I've heard that in 'that London' they have carriages without horses that run under the very ground itself. What kind of evil is this?
And the ones to the east of the city that 'fly' above the buildings on a single line, with no driver. 😯
And the ones to the east of the city that 'fly' above the buildings on a single line, with no driver to go on strike at the drop of a hat.
FTFY. 😈
Yeah, cos that happens like every day, dunnit Flashy? 🙄
And not that you care, but some of those strikes have been about safety; that's right, YOUR safety, and the workers concerns that YOUR safety was not being adequately catered for...
So shut up with yer right-wing undemocratic nonsense please. Thanks.
X
I've heard that in 'that London' they have carriages without horses that run under the very ground itself. What kind of evil is this?
They have those in Glasgow too.
Bit harder to do in Edinburgh what with the city being built literally on top of the the old plague-ridden city.
(And the ground under that being mainly volcanic)
HLS.....
😀
It's a complete f'ing shambles.
Edinburgh is, generally, a city to be genuinely proud of. It's a great place to live (as cities go). However this is becoming (sorry - has become) a massive embarrassment.
What amazes me though is that everyone just kind of shrugs and moans about the trams - we should be marching on the Council HQ protesting about them pissing our money away. Instead we just let them get on with it. Weird.
Elfin - don't worry once its "our money" we are spending I'm sure we'll be more frugal; but since "everyone knows" england is propping up Scotland we might as well milk it for as much as we can while we can 😉
Lodious - just about everyone in Scotland has asked that question at some point. Similar questions about Glasgow Airport, and even - I know this is a crazy suggestion - that you might have a service linking the two airports so that they could become a sort of "super hub"...
...but then you see government policy doesn't really make sense alot of the time: we are builiding a new bridge across the forth (because the last one is rotting) which will only have the capacity required in 2006 (when it was first muted) even though it won't open till 2016. So it is already undersized for its requirements. Why? because we don't want to encourage increase car usage. What alternatives will they provide? Possibly a light railway (is that code for tram?) across the old bridge.
but some of those strikes have been about safety; that's right, YOUR safety,
Does anyone believe this cack for a second? I mean come on.
Is that the [b]Pimlico Defence[/b], Flashy? Try to pretend you've scored points when made to look a fool? 😉
From what I can gather, the Edinburgh Tram is less extensive than the DLR, and serves far fewer people (DLR serves over 100,000 people [i]per day[/i]).
Why even approve such a cost-inneffective project in the first place?
Does anyone believe this cack for a second? I mean come on.
You jolly well have not a clue, have you?
Bless...
The elections are coming. But which do you vote for:What amazes me though is that everyone just kind of shrugs and moans about the trams - we should be marching on the Council HQ protesting about them pissing our money away. Instead we just let them get on with it. Weird.
- Liberals who pushed this through in the first place
- Labour who just scuppered the project so its of even less value to the ecconomy (and will make less money actually meaning it costs the tax payer more money!)
- SNP who didn't want it in the first place but didn't have the balls to join their coallition partners yesterday to stop an even stupidier decision.
I'm not quite sure where the tories stand on this - or if there are any even left in scotland!
The trams in Manchester are a complete shambles too, innefficient and built on the cheap. Sheffiled got the good ones.
Sheffield has trams? 😯
Well I never.
Wonders will never cease....
Officials have warned that a tram line to Haymarket would require a £3m to £4m ongoing annual subsidy, which could also impact on the profitability of Lothian Buses.
So not only is it useless it is also going to run at a £3-4m loss per year.
I used to use the trams in Manchester every day GG. Far from being shambolic, I found it a reasonably priced, clean and efficient way to get back and too to work. Why do you think they're a shambles?
I think the potential usefulness of the Edinburgh trams was crippled when the local referendum voted down the Edinburgh Congestion Charge scheme (which would have funded the original, much larger tram system).
They should have rethought things more carefully at that point rather than pressing ahead with half a system that no one wants.
Elfin: I'm guessing, given your architectural bent, that you'd be mainly upset by the proposals for Haymarket station, a nice building which looks like this:
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which they variously wanted to knock down completely, add a 12 storey glass shopping and transport hub above and now plan to cover with a bit of perspex they got from someone's old greenhouse:
[img] http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/getEdFrontImage.aspx?ImageID=473422 [/img]
And then tack this bland monstrosity on the back:
[img] 
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As binners says, I've used the Manchester trams on and off for about 3 years, always been on time, tidy, cheap and efficient. Bring on the new Picadilly - Oldham line next year.
Front looks ok, back looks sh*te. Nice 60's gobsh*te pebbledash poop on the right too.. why keep that?
Elfin: I'm guessing, given your architectural bent, that you'd be mainly upset by the proposals for Haymarket station
(Weeps)
😥
You jolly well have not a clue, have you?
Na - nor could I give a shit.
Am annoyed about wasting taxpayers' money though.
Jesus!!
That is disgusting!! Did they not spend a bit of money refurbing the station a few years back?
My point about buses is that when I had to get from Newington to Sighthill I had to get a bus into the centre then out through Gorgie...seemed to add a few miles onto the journey. But at least they were reliable. I suppose it's got a lot to do with the layout of the city like someone said.. Not designed for modern transport and all that!
I'm guessing that the cost to put a railway spur in would have been massive! Compared to a tram system that won't even take tourists all the way into the city centre! Cos that makes much more sense.
The trams in Manchester are a complete shambles too, innefficient and built on the cheap. Sheffiled got the good ones.
we got the [i]good[/i] ones? - blimey what are the bad ones like?!
😯
and indeed
😯
oh well, i'll be in edinburgh for a few days next month, at least i won't need to add 'death by tram' to my holiday insurance...
What is it with the [s]Scots[/s]English and spensive construction projects? [s]Parliament[/s] Olympic games and London Clearances- seventy five thousand times over budget. And crap.
Don't forget the Millennium Dome 😀
Can't argue with that really.
But our newer transport systems like the DLR and Croydon Tramlink have bin a success and provided benefit to many more people than the Edinburgh Tram ever will, and at a much lower relative cost.
elf - thats 'cos the edinburgh tramway is a bad design and a badly managed project.
The core of a decent system and an airport link could have been done for this money with some sensible decisions
I think the potential usefulness of the Edinburgh trams was crippled when the local referendum voted down the Edinburgh Congestion Charge scheme
Really scuppered by allowing the commuters to vote. Obviously they to a man voted NO. Which means those in the city pay the price in road repairs and looks like the massive trams overspend too. I am now actively looking for a job that will allow me to move out of CECs grasp.
tell me this is a joke? Stopping at Haymarket - thats not actually what is going to happen now is it?
This is worse than the parliament.
But TJ; woon't that money be better spent improving the housing conditions for many poorer Edinburgers or something instead?
Because I don't know Edinburgh at all, but it seems that route serves tourists/business rather than 'ordinary people'.
The DLR was originally designed to serve the redeveloped Canary Wharf, rather than actual 'locals', but has fortunately gone on to be extended and be of enormous benefit to many residents of Tower Hamlets, Newham, Greenwich and Lewisham (innit).
Maybe the Edinburgh Tram could eventually do the same?
Really scuppered by allowing the commuters to vote. Obviously they to a man voted NO
Actually I voted YES, but I'm an awkward bugger and I think I was the only one in the office that did.
Two options for the trams now really..:
1. Tram Museum. The building is already in place at Gogarburn, just needs the stuff already purchased in it now.
2. Tram rides. From the building above, construct a small oval of track of say 400 m in length and charge £1 per ride, exit the tram in the gift shop on re-entering the building. Could also include a drive-by at Freds Castle across the road via the RBS bridge...
tell me this is a joke? Stopping at Haymarket - thats not actually what is going to happen now is it?This is worse than the parliament.
Coming soon - New Forth Crossing, from the same people that brought you the Scottish Parliament and haven't quite delivered on the trams.
Is it possible that members of the labour party, the tories and the lib dems are all giggling away to themselves in some Westminster conference room while hoisting all this cobblers on you rebellious rabble north of the border?
Forgot the Forth cossing, bet they start building in the middle and run out of cash before they reach land on either side...gradually increasing the budget/cost and reducing the roadway until all that remains is a stick in the middle of the Forth.
Then there is the bridge to nowhere in Glasgow off the motorway...
Could be worse - they originally considered a tunnel across the Forth
Forth One (local radio) asked this morning about what should be done about the tracks down Princes' Street which are now not required.
The best solution suggested was to buy a DeLorean, mount in on the rails, get it to 88 mph and go back 5 years and explain to the Council everything they are about to do wrong 🙂
The best solution suggested was to buy a DeLorean, mount in on the rails, get it to 88 mph and go back 5 years and explain to the Council everything they are about to do wrong
lol! 😀
£3/4Bn pounds would pay for a hell of a lot of number 100 buses.
What route will the tram actually take from Haymarket to the Airport? From what I can figure out, it goes nowhere near where anyone in their right mind would want to go.
It should be noted that a f'ing railway line runs along the boundary fence immediately adjacent to the airport.
Really scuppered by allowing the commuters to vote. Obviously they to a man voted NO. Which means those in the city pay the price in road repairs and looks like the massive trams overspend too. I am now actively looking for a job that will allow me to move out of CECs grasp.
It wasn't just the commuters that voted no - pretty much everyone else did too. That particular scheme was quite poorly conceived so even those who thing congestion charging is a good idea were struggling to find reasons to vote for it.
Sadly Edinburgh Council have and, it would appear, always will be terrible at transport projects (or as I call then "congestion causing schemes"). The bus service in Edinburgh is already pretty decent and a tiny fraction of the cost of the tram project could probably have made it really good.
What route will the tram actually take from Haymarket to the Airport? From what I can figure out, it goes nowhere near where anyone in their right mind would want to go.
True. One of my colleagues lives in Costorphine and originally I'd thought the tram would be useable by him, but apparently the route doesn't take it near him either.
Coming soon - New Forth Crossing, from the same people that brought you the Scottish Parliament and haven't quite delivered on the trams.
I really do hate to think what that will end up costing.
A decent system would have trams going to all the outlying suburbs as well as tourist destinations and hospitals.
Like Manchester for example? You really don't need to go to Germany.
Not wanting to nitpick, but the only hospitals Metrolink goes anywhere near are North Manchester General & Hope. The MRI is a long way from the nearest tram, and Wythenshawe (which is a complete PITA to get to on the bus) was meant to be on the side of the airport loop that's been cut to save money.
Andy
I really do hate to think what that will end up costing.
Isn't it in the region of £2bn? so with the usual CEC project management you can multiply this x2,3,4,5....
It should be noted that a f'ing railway line runs along the boundary fence immediately adjacent to the airport.
Aye! I suspect they could have put a new railway station and a monorail from there to the main terminal in for considerably less than £3 billion.
Hold on hold on;
Three or four [i]billion[/i] pounds? For a tram system in a city with less than half a million inhabitants?
How many people are expected to use this service every day/week/month/year?
[i]Three or four billion pounds?[/i]
😯
To put it into perspective; the DLR has up to wunundred thousand people per day using it, and over sixty million journeys per year. And I don't know how much it has cost in total, as it's bin extended over the 24 years it's bin in existence, but I'd wager it's a good bit less than three or four billion pounds altogether. And it makes a healthy profit, as well as being extremely efficient and well-run. And it's a proper rail system, not a tram, and has required lots of elevated sections, bridges, tunnels etc.
Bloody hell fire.