Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty “luxury” apartments.
Clearly haven’t been to Brum recently then. THere are whole swathes of residential areas which are some of the most deprived within the inner ring road, such as Highgate, Ladywood etc.
I started to post about this earlier, but deleted it because I waffled on too much.
I don't know which cities have ghettoes of poor people outside and swathes of expensive flats in the centre - few that I've been to. Even Lambeth, less than a mile from Westminster is poverty stricken. (See also the area just north of Canary Wharf, and plenty of other places in London centre.) Some of the northern cities and towns I've seen in the last few years are desperately run down. Eye of the beholder and all that.
I love Birmingham as a city, but by gosh it needs less cars.
The centre gets better every time a driver decides it's better not to go in. I drive in occasionally, but it's a nightmare and I will avoid it if I can.
As mentioned above, the public transport is actually really good, 3 stations and loads of bus routes. Once the tram is up and running it'll be even better.
Many the commenters seem to have not understood the issue the OP posted about which was not being aware of the zone and being caught by a big fine. This was my experience too although mine was worse as the initial letter was not delivered and I was fined £180.
If I had been aware of the charge I would have paid it without protest and, I dare say, so would the OP. The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone - I do not think either of us are the entitled environmental terrorists that some posters have been trying to paint us as.
There are multiple visitor attractions within the CAZ which attract out of town visitors. I do not think it would be unreasonable to expect the council to spend a bit of money putting up signs at these venues and car parks that service them informing visitors about the CAZ. The fact that this has not happened implies that the Council would rather issue punitive fines than treat visitors to their City with a measure of consideration.
or perhaps your observation skills are rather poor and you really should be paying more attention to the big signs on the way into the zone?
The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone
If you lived in the city you'd doubtless know about the zone.
If you are driving into a city that you aren't familiar with, why aren't you checking out every road sign you see?
(How do you know you aren't driving down a one way street, or in a bus lane? Is it certain signs that you ignore? Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but I've spent the last few years driving up and down the country and through unfamiliar cities, and using the excuse that you missed the signs is a poor one. They aren't hidden.)
Haha, TJ beat me to it - I was just about to post some pics of signs!
The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone
And the response we've given is "why didn't you see them?".
As above, I spend a lot of time in the city and it's really well signposted, even more so on the major arterial routes. I don't see why the council would put additional signage inside the zone, I don't think London does with the congestion zone.
I do wonder if people no longer look for signs now as they just follow a sat-nav screen. I guess it could be useful if it flashed up on the sat-nav maybe? In that case, blame Google/TomTom/Waze rather than Birmingham Council.
Many the commenters seem to have not understood the issue the OP posted about which was not being aware of the zone and being caught by a big fine. This was my experience too although mine was worse as the initial letter was not delivered and I was fined £180.
If I had been aware of the charge I would have paid it without protest and, I dare say, so would the OP. The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone – I do not think either of us are the entitled environmental terrorists that some posters have been trying to paint us as.
I haven't lived there for nine years (and I don't have any family there any more) but I was well aware of the charging for years before it was actually implemented. It's been national news.
As to your point about it being highlighted in attractions etc, presumably that's private land, so the council would have to agree a site-by-site licence with each landowner, which I doubt would be feasible or cost-effective.
I have to say based on our area's implementation I would be hugely surprised if the signage was inadequate - for months beforehand there were warning signs at each entry point, and now there are pictorial signs indicating a CAZ (though in fairness, some people have complained they are unclear, but apparently the council are constrained by the laws relating to road signage). When we've had workmen in from outside the city they've asked about them and I've explained about the CAZ and they just pay the fee.
Though I have to say, I would struggle to say this is not clear in Brum:
Have you got any pictures of signs when it is dark and raining very heavily because those were the conditions when I drove in there.
None of your pictures show the signs being illuminated so is it really that difficult to understand that people driving in poor conditions on unfamiliar roads might be paying more attention to other vehicles, traffic lights etc. than information signs?
The fact that 44,000 fines were issued in the first month of charging does strongly imply there might be some issues with the quality of the signage and that it is not quite the utopia portrayed by the perfect drivers of STW.
I also stand by my comment about the common sense approach of the council and local businesses working in partnership to inform visitors about the CAZ - I am sure businesses would be fine to display council supplied signage to inform their customers that they are within the CAZ rather than have people being fined and not returning due to the draconian fines.
Also the point about sat-nav is valid. I used Waze for my visit and did not get a charging warning. I have just entered the same trip details and did now get a warning so they have caught up.
Have you got any pictures of signs when it is dark and raining very heavily because those were the conditions when I drove in there
So you're saying you didn't drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions, then?
Pretty seething on opening letter this morning where Birmingham council are fining me 120 for driving in their central clean air zone and not paying a daily charge
Seething? I'd be fuming.
@ransos - I see what you did there 🙂
I've not been to Brum since the changes, but those signs look a bit vague and are meaningless in isolation.
Contrast with the original London Congestion charge signs, which were red circles and surrounded by gantries and further signs on each and every road into and out of the zone. Plus various 'Have you paid?' reminders on the way out. They also had signs on routes to take to AVOID the charge. And giant red C's painted on the road itself. That was pretty hard to miss and misunderstand.
The recent CAZs are such a crap implementation compared to that for the original C-charge in London. ULEZ was also nowhere near as clearly advertised / marked, but they wrote to pretty much every local and relevant nationwide business they could think of informing them of the change.
It's also a bit of a shambles when you can drive in one city centre CAZ with no charge and yet in another face a charge in the same vehicle.
I support the concept, but localised implementation is making it unnecessarily difficult to comply and understand.
but those signs look a bit vague and are meaningless in isolation.
But they're not in isolation, are they? There are quite clear signs, like the one I posted, which state "Clean Air Zone. Charges Apply Pay Online". I don't really think you can get any clearer than that. Coupled with it being NATIONAL NEWS for a while, it's hardly like it's been a sudden imposition.
It’s also a bit of a shambles when you can drive in one city centre CAZ with no charge and yet in another face a charge in the same vehicle.
Well, not really. Each local authority was required to show compliance with air quality standards. Those that couldn't had to implement a scheme to introduce compliance, hence the CAZ.
The car/no car thing relates to a consultation that our (i.e. Bath's) (then Conservative) local authority did at the time. They provided four options - which was basically polluting cars yes or no, and concluded they could meet air quality targets without including private cars. As it has transpired, this involved rejigging traffic lights around a known pinch point to remove idling cars from the area immediately next to the air quality sensors, which has had the knock on effect of actually increasing pollution elsewhere on the square, for which the current (Lib Dem) authority are getting it in the neck. I suspect that the next step will be to introduce charging for polluting cars, which I gather from the consultation was effectively petrols from before around 2006 (i.e. not Euro 4) and diesels from before 2016 (not Euro 6), just like London, Brum etc.
Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty “luxury” apartments.
Never been to Gloucester, Bristol, Nottingham, etc. Plenty of cities with poor areas towards the centre.
Hmmm Jakester...
Those blue signs are pretty pathetic in comparison to what went into notifying users of the roads in the London C-charge zone. Also, they definitely could be clearer as they're incorrect! Charges don't apply if you drive certain vehicles - they should say 'Charges may apply' 😉
My point is that local implementation is crap and variable. I didn't even know Bath was getting a scheme. And why Bath, not Gloucester, Oxford or Cambridge? The rationale is effectively arbitrary to anyone who's not local. Any of those cities may or may not have schemes and if they do, they may or may not bear any semblance to schemes in place elsewhere. And what about towns like Basingstoke or Cleethorpes? What's the threshold for air pollution?
It's a shambles to anyone who travels outside their home town. You've got to feel for businesses trying to catch up, let alone the local authorities themselves.
We'll all get used to it in the end, but central government threw the LAs a hospital pass with the devolution of these schemes.
and why Bath, not Gloucester, Oxford or Cambridge?
Because Bath didn't meet the guidelines on air pollution, but presumably those other places did.
And what about towns like Basingstoke or Cleethorpes? What’s the threshold for air pollution?
https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/air-pollution/
"For monitoring and reporting air pollution the UK has been divided into non-agglomeration zones and agglomeration zones. There are fifteen non-agglomeration zones defined which match:
the boundaries of England's Government Offices for the Regions; and
the boundaries agreed by the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland."
A lot of this is driven by the claims brought by ClientEarth to hold the Government to the agreed air quality limits: https://www.clientearth.org/what-we-do/priorities/air-pollution/
We’ll all get used to it in the end, but central government threw the LAs a hospital pass with the devolution of these schemes.
And there's the rub. Yet people still vote for Boris et al...
@Jakester we traided the car in and they scrapped it. Much to my horror but as the sales staff said "remember the government paid us to do it a few years ago"
I assume he was referring to the scrapage system.
And I've done the maths the Skoda was much better on fuel same engine size 3 pot turbo new car is slightly bigger.
Bonkers but now it never drives to brum anyway as my wife works closer to home in a different unit.
all the clean air charge has done is force the cars into the smaller streets around the clean air zone and make the pollution even worse around the residents.
Any evidence for this? Because it sounds like the anti-LTN arguments which have largely been shown to be untrue I think.
Anyway, I'm pretty much with @JonEdwards on this. I live in Birmingham and large parts of it are absolutely blighted by traffic, despite having very frequent public transport. So I'm all for measures to reduce it, and waiting for people to do it voluntarily isn't going to work.
But a lot of this stuff does kind of imply that it's not you driving into Birmingham that's the problem necessarily it's doing it in an older car when you could, say, have an electric one. It needs to be more about encouraging people to actually change their behaviour rather than just get a new car, and the zones aren't really a great way to do that.
None of your pictures show the signs being illuminated so is it really that difficult to understand that people driving in poor conditions on unfamiliar roads might be paying more attention to other vehicles, traffic lights etc. than information signs?
Yes it is difficult to understand someone driving with that lack of observation care and attention. I once missed a 50 mph sign on a dual carriageway - got done for speeding. Totally my fault and I didn't try to blame poor signage or anything else. a reminder to observe properly
if you missed the signs your observation was poor. thats the top and bottom of it. What else didn't you see?
Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches.
Edinburgh has large amounts of council housing withing the city centre and plenty of flats. rich folk generrally live outside the centre
Another year and I will be able to drive my old oil burning Land Rover through these clean air zones with impunity 🙂
https://www.brumbreathes.co.uk/info/29/exemptions-3/21/apply-exemption/9
EDIT: Mind you, if I set off now it would probably take me 6 months to get there 🙂
of they really want to reduce air pollution ban all cars from certain areas, but of course that is much less profitable
Widely rumoured that one of the reasons private cars aren’t included in the GM CAZ is because CoM council makes a shedload from mobility hubs car parks in the city centre. Round here the objections seem to revolve around people’s ‘right’ to drive around in smoky old horse boxes, and unless I’m missing something, surely most commercial vehicles will have the charge put through as an expense against tax?
And of course, this week, air pollution led to London advising people not to cycle on health grounds, rather than limiting vehicle traffic, as the French would have done.
Yes it is difficult to understand someone driving with that lack of observation care and attention.
To be fair to the OP I did a drive much like that into Leith along Ferry Road in stop start traffic all the way from the Maybury. I couldn't tell you wtf was happening as the signage was utterly awful, it was pissing down and by the time I get to where I was going I'd been driving for 3 hours, most of that in Edinburgh itself, so I was tired. I was driving safely but my attention was on the road and other users rather than the seemingly random signs scattered about the place.
Edinburgh has large amounts of council housing withing the city centre and plenty of flats. rich folk generrally live outside the centre
Aye, everyone knows the new town is a manky ghetto, that's why everyone with any sense lives out in Pilton and Sighthill.
If you were tired and being unobservant you were not driving safely were you?
Excessive self-righteousness and a refusal to consider reasonable points is a rule 1 failure...
I've been fined twice in three months and have not been to Birmingham centre for about 10yrs.
Seems their system thinks a Dacia is a transit.
If you were tired and being unobservant you were not driving safely were you?
my attention was on the road and other users rather than the seemingly random signs scattered about the place
Ferry Road is and the roads in to it are/were a moger. I have made a point of not driving in Edinburgh unless it is entirely necessary, they have excelled in putting drivers off by the sheer frustration brought about by the piss poor signage. Try driving to Glasgow from North Bridge, first signage I saw for the right direction was at Straiton! (no, I wasn't for trying to get back to Corstorphine Road after spending half an hour pulling U Turns and getting lost around Lothian Road and the conference centre).
So you admit to being tired and distracted to the point you cannot see road signs? But claim driving safely?
From north bridge to glasgow of course you didn't see signs going that way - you were going the wrong way! No wonder you got confused! No need to use corstorphine road either - western approach road then a71 is how you would be signposted I think.
Excessive self-righteousness and a refusal to consider reasonable points is a rule 1 failure…
Ah, you’ve been reading the responses by motorists on social media too.
On that topic, why do some people find it hard to imagine a world where cyclists are also motorists (not directed at you, just a weird thing that seems to occur on social media elsewhere).
So you admit to being tired and distracted to the point you cannot see road signs? But claim driving safely?
No, I stopped looking at signs beyond checking I was in the correct lane and just dealt with the walking pace traffic.
No need to use corstorphine road either – western approach road then a71 is how you would be signposted I think.
But it wasn't, at all. At ANY junction between The Scotsman and the City Bypass. That's pish. How am I expected to get to Western Approach without anything to guide me?
Aye I just had a look on google streetview - the signage in that area is poor as the tramworks / North bridge refurbishment mean the signs that used to be there are gone but there still are some if you go the right direction on north bridge - north to the west end! not south to they bypass Picardy place / queen street / west end
Queen street is the east / west road across the town centre
I'm all for clean air zones and less traffic but we really do have a problem with excessive signage and complexity in this country to the point where its simply impossible to take it all in.
It's always the quick fix - add another sign, rather than adjusting road design to make it simpler and easier to follow.
I travel in and out of brum in the dark on a daily basis, you CANNOT miss the signage, it is literally everywhere! Fortunately my employer picks up the tab for charges
Near London there are a few Clean Air zones that started this year. I had no idea about them until my dad told me. The signs are not that obvious and were placed in the middle of a dual carridgeway. I was in the left lane so if other vehicles were between me and the sign, i'd not have seen them. Luckily my cars exempt but still think the government could have made more effort to tell people they had to pay. As silly as that sounds.
I think the problem is the rules all differ and you can't just sign up on line in one place to automatically pay. Must admit I'm going to have to very careful with our old diesel as in some schemes it'll cost and others it won't. Luckily at the moment manchester focusing on commercial vehicles isok, hopefully will have replaced it by the time the charging extends to private vehicles.
An interesting thing about the Manchester scheme is that in May it will apply to taxis licensed outside GM but not those in GM. I wonder if there’s some sort of ulterior notice there?
I wonder if there’s some sort of ulterior notice there
Autocorrected ‘motive’ I guess.
There probably is. A lot of private hire vehicles in GM seem to be registered with Sefton BC. Cheaper for them? Seems like a fair move for GM to use a new and different charge to incentivise registrations more locally.
I think the idea is ok in principle but only after they have put in good quality public transport/park and rides, etc.
I also wish that motorhomes and campervans had been given an exemption for the Greater Manchester one. I imagine that there are a few campsites that are going to lose out on some business.
@prettygreenparrot Only spotted 'notice' when it was too late to edit 🙄 A cursory Google suggests CoM taxi fees are quite a bit higher, and presumably it's harder to regulate problems for PHVs/taxis registered elsewhere.
@Mugboo How big a problem is that really though? Ultimately the GM CAZ is about getting businesses to change non-Euro 6 compliant vehicles (remembering that there wasn't a scrappage scheme for commercials) rather than private cars, for better or worse. However, what I'm really unclear about is what stops businesses putting the CAZ charge through as an expense against tax, and carrying on running non-compliant vehicles.
All in it might have been better going for a Crit'Air style system and punitively charging non-compliant vehicles on days the air quality is bad, such as yesterday.
@ratherbeintobago I'm not sure. I accept that we need to change and that I won't be able to drive into Bradford, Sheffield and GM in my T4 and I'm fine with that. But our Sprinter Campervan hardly does any miles, surely most people who drive these do low miles rather delivering goods, etc.
Aye, maybe. There's someone on our street who has a T4 but it's not his daily driver. I think it boils down to pricing it in (which we've done when we've been to London by car) or, if it's a big problem, there was something about conversion kits to make it compliant. The big bucks are for lorries (£60/day)
I do wonder if people no longer look for signs now as they just follow a sat-nav screen. I guess it could be useful if it flashed up on the sat-nav maybe?
☝ That coupled with this:
@ratherbeintobago our Sprinter is £60 a day for Manchester, £50 for Bradford.
I've no issue with not going to either of these city's but the GM one takes in lots of surrounding area's. Its no drama for me, we will just head somewhere else but it might affect the owners of campsites.
It suggests on the CAZ website that a camper with GVW less than 3.5t will be treated as a van ie. £10/day. What does a Sprinter weigh in at?
