Pretty seething on opening letter this morning where Birmingham council are fining me 120 for driving in their central clean air zone and not paying a daily charge. I drove down one evening in December for business did not see any signs, did not know about a central area daily charge so can they really find me for something I did not know ?
They also offer a reduced fine of 60 if you pay in 14 days but that then also stops you being able to appeal.
London congestion charge is well known and managed but this feels like a back door way for the council to earn more cash. I would be happy to pay the daily fee if I had known about it...
Maybe i’m Just out of touch but it definitely makes me not go back to Birmingham and warn others about fines. Looks like they are aiming for other areas such as Bradford and bath as well.
So do I just pay the 60 quid or appeal with the risk of the larger fine because they say I should have seen the roadside signs in heavy traffic with roadworks ....
I haven't been, but did you not see the signs?
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20076/pollution/1763/a_clean_air_zone_for_birmingham/5
You can't blooming move in London without being warned about the ULEZ...
How did you miss the signage it's everywhere tbh. It's also driven congestion to suburban roads so it's working well.
We had to get rid of a perfectly good fabia tdi because my wife has no option to use her car. Happy she is moving job location so no more pebble hill parking.
How confident are you that there were no signs on your route in? Or were they there and you didn't see them?
They'll be too new to see on street view. Do you have a dascham that you can review the footage on and potentially use as evidence?
If not then you'd have to re drive the route and double check for signage.
If none of the above are doable then you'll have to suck it up and pay the fine.
I live in Cardiff and I know about the Brum CAZ. Local authorities have been dragged kicking and screaming by courts into bringing air pollution rates down, none of them have wanted to do anything about pollution as they are scared it will upset drivers...the courts are forcing local authorities and Westminster and devolved Govts to discharge their legal obligations to not have unhealthy levels of pollution in their cities. See also 50mph fixed average speed cameras on some stretches of Welsh roads
I think ignorance is an inadmissible defence.
suck it up and move on.
Nope did not see the signs, it was dark and I was trying to navigate in heavy traffic and stay within speed limit so it’s not to say they were not there but more they may have not been well lit and obvious.
Not going to go back and gather info as time is too short, probably missed that it came into force during Covid times but it still feels like the first thing they should do is give you the chance to pay the £8 daily not straight to fine ...
Pay 60 and move on if it were me
I live in Cardiff and I know about the Brum CAZ.
TBH, I live in the Scottish Highlands and even I knew about it!
feels like a back door way for the council to earn more cash
You must be new to driving.
I know someone who was fined considerably more than that going to the QE hospital & back for a week. They followed Google Maps which took them through the Queensway tunnels under the zone. I checked & Google didn’t warn you.
If not then you’d have to re drive the route and double check for signage
that will bring the total up to £240 🙂
Birmingham, Bristol, Bath…
Is there something about cities beginning with ‘B’ that is driving these zones? Probably not, but I’ve been aware of them for some considerable time, and it basically drove my decision to get rid of my old diesel Octavia and replace it with a very much newer petrol car, as I’m very close to both cities, and visit both occasionally, Bristol for gigs in the evenings.
signage is everywhere, even if you missed one it's posted several times on approach before you even enter the zone and you then have 6 days to pay the charge before the fine.
Sorry, but failing to spot the signs is not a defence.
Don't worry they want to turn queensway and the Chinese tunnels into a pedestrian walkway with hanging gardens.
ignorance of the law is no excuse under the law - as a licensed driver its your responsibility to follow the law
Birmingham, Bristol, Bath…
Is there something about cities beginning with ‘B’ that is driving these zones? Probably not, but I’ve been aware of them for some considerable time, and it basically drove my decision to get rid of my old diesel Octavia and replace it with a very much newer petrol car, as I’m very close to both cities, and visit both occasionally, Bristol for gigs in the evenings.
Sheffield is bringing one in too. Although it's no camper vans, or only camper vans, or camper vans with over or under x amount of Willy's Surf Shack stickers, I can't remember which, but either way - it makes sense.
Thought you could appeal and stop the clock ticking for the reduced fee?
I had a similar issue with Wolverhampton bus lanes, there were a lot of roadworks and I swear one of the diversion signs sent me down one.
Appealed and had one dropped (I drove down it twice trying to find my way to train station 😂) but paid the other, guess I must have just gotten it wrong.
Birmingham pcn fine clean air zone – £120 !!
The council is not there to make mortal living easy.
Therefore, giving you a fine is a way to justify their existence and pension package.
If it makes you feel any better I knew for months that Brum were introducing a CAZ and still fell foul of it. I just forgot to pay in the required time frame.
The signs are pretty much everywhere and there was some very big advertising hoardings on the main routes into the City.
Luckily for me now my new van is exempt for the time being…….
Pay it and learn, being a bit peeved you cocked up isn't grounds for appeal. Better steer clear of the whole of Greater Manchester soon as well if you're driving a commercial vehicle.
Luckily for me now my new van is exempt for the time being…….
Not for long until they dream up of something else ...
Pay it and learn, being a bit peeved you cocked up isn’t grounds for appeal. Better steer clear of the whole of Greater Manchester soon as well if you’re driving a commercial vehicle.
Yes, pay it but should you keep voting for the likes you are just tightening the noose on yourself.
I drive a 2005 Toyota Corolla with a road tax of £265 per year and rumor has it some blood sucking zombie maggot parasites are going to increase that this year. If they can't get you in other way they will get you this way.
Dartford crossing had an amnesty period for this, you just paid the crossing fee.
They might be going harder in Birmingham but it's a bit off when the scheme is new
Better steer clear of the whole of Greater Manchester soon as well if you’re driving a commercial vehicle.
The motorways are not in the zone within Greater Manchester
There's debate about it for Derby too (as the council has sat with it's finger up it's asre for so long not sorting decent public transport options or cycling (ok in the city itself in places but ends in an unsafe abrupt way at the city border, even though 90% + of the commuters are from outside the city.).
Ohhh and they desperately wanted to use tax £££ to pay taxi drivers to get cleaner cars - FFS why should they be subsidised over everyone else or proper public transport. Eeejits in charge everywhere.
I live in Bradford and they are enforcing a CAZ. It was supposed to start 1st Jan but its been postponed until spring as the council aren't ready.
My daily driver is a van that is not used for commercial use. I've asked several times about the exemptions as its going to cost me £45 per week to travel to work. The council don't seem to be in any rush on giving people information.
What’s your vehicle? I have a 2005 Subaru and it wouldn’t be caught by the CAZ in Brum, so presumably an old (and therefore polluting) diesel?
Born and bred brummie here, moved out of Birmingham after 52 years and now live in a quiet village in east Yorkshire 🙂 ... Things like the congestion charge helped me make my mind up to move on , My daily commute took me through the city centre ever day and so an extra £40 a week just to get to work soon starts adding up ! .. all the clean air charge has done is force the cars into the smaller streets around the clean air zone and make the pollution even worse around the residents.
An old school friend has a small garage just inside the zone and he's decided to close up after 35 years as fed up with less work etc and those that do come to his garage want the £8 deducted from the bill etc !
Its the councils way of paying for the commonwealth games being held up the road this year
Glad this has sparked some discussion and hopefully not just me are more aware where these schemes are playing out.
Car is a trusty 2013 bmw 5 with 180k on the clock and still going strong so little reason or cash to change. 1 year off euro 6 engine. There is also a carbon cost in changing cars that i’m Not sure many take into account ...
Car is a trusty 2013 bmw 5 with 180k on the clock and still going strong so little reason or cash to change
Apart from the fact it’s been identified as one of the heaviest polluting vehicles by the clean air zone?
1 year off euro 6 engine. There is also a carbon cost in changing cars that i’m Not sure many take into account …
Not if you buy a second hand car. If you’re that bothered by the CAZ (and I’m not - we have one here in Bath which doesn’t charge private cars yet, but it’s only a matter of time. We compared the cost of changing car to the cost of paying each time we entered the zone and it was way more expensive to buy a new car) then sell your car and buy the Euro 6 version - unlikely to be dramatically more expensive between a 13 plate and 14 plate.
Or avoid city centres, which is the whole point of a CAZ.
ignorance of the law is no excuse under the law – as a licensed driver its your responsibility to follow the law
But no/rubbish signs is a defence against parking tickets.
.
FWIW this is the first I have heard of the Birmingham scheme (luckily I live nowhere near Birmingham. Used to have a girlfriend in Selly Oak and Brum is my least favourite place in the whole world, I think even worse than London)
.
These schemes do strike me as a way of pricing the poor off the road so that the wealthy can drive about without any traffic jams, of they really want to reduce air pollution ban all cars from certain areas, but of course that is much less profitable
But no/rubbish signs is a defence against parking tickets.
If that was the case then challenge it. But it isn't.
These schemes do strike me as a way of pricing the poor off the road so that the wealthy can drive about without any traffic jams, of they really want to reduce air pollution ban all cars from certain areas, but of course that is much less profitable
I think they can have that effect (affecting less well off drivers with older cars who can't afford to change) but your 'why' is miles off.
Or avoid city centres, which is the whole point of a CAZ
In Greater Manchester's case it will be all the way out to the county boundary of Derbyshire, including rural and semi-rural areas.
Bring these schemes on IMHO. Raging motorists are fun to laugh at 😀
In OPs defence, the city doesn't even appear the understand it's own CAZ.
A council overseeing a pollution-busting Clean Air Zone (CAZ) for city centre traffic has issued 82 fines - to itself.
Birmingham City Council vehicles incurred charges by driving through areas where transport is required to follow certain emission standards.
It then incurred fines when those fees were not paid in time.
Nope did not see the signs, it was dark and I was trying to navigate in heavy traffic and stay within speed lim
I wouldn't use that as a defence, sounds like driving without due care and attention to me, that'd add some points to your licence as well as a bigger fine.
Yes its a rip off and the local council has spent much of its history either not caring a jot, or licensing polluting companies to burn/dispose of waste.
Pay it, then put in some claims for damage from potholes 😉
£60 early payment? Sounds like a bargain compared to the late payment charges for the Mersey gateway bridge each time I’ve gotten one I kick myself for not remembering to have paid the evening of my journey. And of course a day later I get the charge for the return leg 😖 https://merseygateway.co.uk/
there was probably similar upset when London created its CCZ many years ago.
Like folks have said, there are a number of similar schemes planned or already in operation. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/10/the-ulez-clean-air-zone-is-expanding-from-25-october---here-s-wh/
Maybe time to consider getting something less polluting? https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/21/22585682/electric-vehicles-greenhouse-gas-emissions-lifecycle-assessment
These schemes are a useful incentive to move to cleaner transport. But it must be upsetting to be unaware, inattentive, and find an unexpected charge land on your doormat.
I was caught in August/Sept.
I had no idea the area was so large. I was going from the M6 to Bristol Road, I was under the impression that it was the central area. I went through the tunnels to Bristol Road. That is in the area. Anything after Matalan Island is in the zone, which, in my view, is there to make money rather than reduce emissions, as it is the usual route to get from North to South.
I rang them up, and was offered to pay the £8 that day, and the fine would be cancelled. Try that first, but being as its 6 months on, they may be stricter now.
These schemes do strike me as a way of pricing the poor off the road so that the wealthy can drive about without any traffic jams, of they really want to reduce air pollution ban all cars from certain areas, but of course that is much less profitable
Another view could be helping to help protect the health of the poor and vulnerable who can’t afford to live in ‘nice’ areas
Our health improved when we moved from Bradford which has massive amounts of transport related pollution to rural Shropshire
Must admit I didn’t know Brum had a zone. Do they work on ANPR and check a database?
I got caught by the Birmingham clean air zone charging as well after going to a Nick Cave concert last October at the Symphony Hall. It was a dark and rainy night and neither me or my passenger noticed any warning signs.
I was actually fined £180 as I did not respond to the first letter which. after extensive searching of the house, am pretty certain was never delivered. This second letter made it quite clear that there would soon be proceedings to recover the debt and no chance to appeal.
What really frustrated me was that there were no information signs at the car park we used or at the venue we visited. Surely the Council who implemented the scheme should be doing everything possible to make sure visitors from out of town are made aware of the scheme and working with car parks and visitor attractions would seem to be a cheap and effective way of doing this. The fact that this does not happen makes me think that the Council want to fine out of towners rather than have them pay the £8.
My car is a 2007 diesel S-Max which only gets driven once or twice a week. I cannot see how it would be more green to scrap this and buy a new cleaner car as the emissions from manufacturing that would far outweigh what my car will emit during the next few years until it reaches the end of its life.
I would have preferred using public transport to driving but that was not possible as no trains were running late enough to make it possible.
To add insult to injury it took 50+ minutes to exit the multi-storey car park after the gig as only one of the three exit barriers was working. The emissions caused by that must have been significant.
To those who say the signage is clear and the council have communicated information about the CAZ to people google how many of the Council's own vehicles have been caught in the zone to see exactly how badly this has been handled.
To those who say the signage is clear and the council have communicated information about the CAZ to people google how many of the Council’s own vehicles have been caught in the zone to see exactly how badly this has been handled.
I find 82, in an article that says there have been 44,000 tickets issued.
How many liable vehicles do Brum council have x how many days in operation to find out how many haven't been caught, give us some context? How many are the same person / vehicle on multiple days? Is that 1%? I suspect more like fractions of a %, ie: not significant as a measure of how badly it has been handled (but funny nevertheless)
When your appeal gets to court, and if they will not let your guide dog in then, tell them that you are going to stop driving.
That will show them.
My car is a 2007 diesel S-Max which only gets driven once or twice a week. I cannot see how it would be more green to scrap this and buy a new cleaner car as the emissions from manufacturing that would far outweigh what my car will emit during the next few years until it reaches the end of its life.
They aren't asking you to scrap your car, just not to drive it into a city which has bad air quality affecting peoples lives. Or pay for the privilege (for the moment until they are banned completely).
Another view could be helping to help protect the health of the poor and vulnerable who can’t afford to live in ‘nice’ areas
+1
Who actually wants to breath polluted air?
To those who say the signage is clear and the council have communicated information about the CAZ to people google how many of the Council’s own vehicles have been caught in the zone to see exactly how badly this has been handled.
That would include their waste collection vehicles that have to go into CAZ but they still are paying the costs because they aren't trying to shirk their responsibilities.
Some of you clearly not comprehending that the cars and hgvs that don't comply are just driving round residents streets to avoid the cameras with longer travel times and pollution So that helps. My wife had no choice to drive no public transport at 3 am ect and on call. So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
She uses more fuel less nox I assume but the tanker that delivers extra fuel is pumping it out.
Not exactly joined up thinking is it. Reduced speed limits and enforcement would have reduced fuel consumption and nox.
Some of you clearly not comprehending that the cars and hgvs that don’t comply are just driving round residents streets to avoid the cameras with longer travel times and pollution So that helps. My wife had no choice to drive no public transport at 3 am ect and on call. So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
I'm still after a rant about an LTN to complete my persecuted motorist's bingo card.
If you write to the council and get your street shut we can both win.
I'm not persecuted I don't live in brum and couldn't give a toss tbh just relaying my experience of the situation as it directly affected my wife. I've just typed I'm all for speed reduction and enforcement.
Now when I type I could not give a toss that's not strictly true.
How's that for bingo full house?
If you want less c02 maybe we should all stop buying bikes shipped from china when the one we brought 3 years ago is perfectly still usable.
Or Garmin watches, coffee machines ect
I had to drive into Birmingham a couple of months ago for work. I had no idea about the LEZ until I got there, but the signage (to me) was blindingly obvious, so paid the fee as soon as I parked up. (had my own bodyweights worth of tools and equipment, so couldn't train it + Sunday, so limited service)
I'll admit I'm torn about the whole LEZ thing. On the one hand, yes, polluters should be charged more, and there needs to be a disincentive for driving into town centres.
On the other hand all its actually doing is pushing more consumerism as people just buy new "environmentally friendly" vehicles, without actually thinking about the carbon etc costs of creating the new vehicle. It's not actually reducing overall pollution, just moving it around some.
What there isn't is a "positive" incentive to use an alternate form of travel - whether that's making bikes easier, better (24hr) bus & train services etc etc.
Me? I've got a 2005 diesel with 180+k on the clock, which I've owned for 12 years. Its reasonably efficient, good to drive, very reliable, and it suits the majority of the driving I do, which tends to 150-200 mile each way motorway jaunts. Local stuff I (mostly) ride to. To replace that with a EU6 (so'16 plate) vehicle of similar quality and capability I'm looking at £16-20k, which I just don't have, and that's a HELL of a lot of LEZ charges. If work need me to drive into a LEZ zone, then they can pay. If its personal, I'll figure out a way round it, but that may well backfire with the intended aim. (The obvious one for me is that Wickes is just inside the proposed Sheffield LEZ zone. Instead I'll drive the extra 10 minutes of 70mph A-road each way to the Chesterfield branch...)
I avoid Brum like the plague now....
I noticed the signs all around the ring road when I went up the Coventry Road a couple of months back - traffic around there is a nightmare with those trying to avoid the charge.
Up until 2020 I worked in the Mail Box and used to get the train in from Cannock - hated that and it was worse if I drove to site and then the office because of the mental parking charges in the Bullring, indoor markets and Mailbox etc.
Last time I actually went in to Brum was August 2020 to hand my laptop & phone back - not been there since!
Crucially these zones aren't about carbon emissions. So saying you have an efficient vehicle isn't the point or talking about the carbon cost of a new car.
It's about air quality in the city nothing to do with overall environment ghg issues.
It's the same thing when plastic and other environmental issues get wrapped up with co2 emissions. They are largely separate
It's like.... It's like there's a deliberate plan to encourage people not to drive....
I'm all for it, I know I'm lucky* in that my circumstances allow me not to drive, but disincentivising driving benefits everyone, not just me. Interesting looking out the window at the school run traffic jam how many cars were still heavily (and in some cases dangerously) frozen - they haven't gone far to get here, probably be quicker to walk your child to school and back than it is to sit in traffic (certainly quicker to cycle, conditions allowing). Drivers, meh.
* I say lucky - it was actually played for, that was.
My daily driver is a van that is not used for commercial use. I’ve asked several times about the exemptions as its going to cost me £45 per week to travel to work
Isn't that the point of the clean air zone? If you won't stop driving your polluting vehicle for the planet or even yourself maybe you'll do it for your wallet and consider taking a bike, train, bus, scooter, carpooling, buying a less polluting vehicle etc etc. OF course the council don't mind making a few quid in the process but the principle is that.
Pay as you go road tax hopefully is the next one, would love to see a way of taxing idiots that drive for stupid sub 2 mile trips all the time
Of course it'd be great to see the biggest polluters such as the military getting on board but for now any step is good
Love the hypocrisy on here, bleating about all sorts of environmental stuff and mental health and cycling being awesome for health etc etc but as soon as they are asked to dip into their pockets or change their lifestyle to help others it’s suddenly not fair on them.
Do you know the only reason why we recycle so much of our household waste? It’s not because of a shared guilty conscience about waste nor do gooders at the council. It’s simply because landfill tax was increased a massive amount to force people into other options to deal with their waste. If the tax wasn’t set up at getting on for nearly £100 a tonne we’d still be dumping it in landfills.
People are selfish, the only way to make people change (apart from a fringe element who actually want to to right thing) is to hit them in their wallets.
My daily driver is a van that is not used for commercial use. I’ve asked several times about the exemptions as its going to cost me £45 per week to travel to work
I see your point, who could have thought that single-occupant, older, oversized, polluting, commercial vehicles being driven in city centers every day might be part of the air quality problem?
But the air issues have just moved 2 miles away? Someone else's problem I guess they want commerce and the cash but don't want the issues it brings.
The park and ride in Leicester Forrest east is a prime example loads of pollution around suburban homes to get a bus into the city who gets the clean air.
How many people need to work in office spaces now anyway or drive/train to that meeting.
Do you know the only reason why we recycle so much of our household waste? It’s not because of a shared guilty conscience about waste nor do gooders at the council. It’s simply because landfill tax was increased a massive amount to force people into other options to deal with their waste. If the tax wasn’t set up at getting on for nearly £100 a tonne we’d still be dumping it in landfills.
Although what actaully happens is we just export most of our 'recycling' to the far east where they either burn it or dump it in the Pacific....
its so nice to see car drivers having to pay for some of the damage and illhealth they cause. they still are massively subsidized by the general taxpayer mind you. Perhaps one day car drivers will actually pay their way
It’s like…. It’s like there’s a deliberate plan to encourage people not to drive….
Absolutely. But you need to show lazy people another, better, easier way or they'll just spaff the cash and bollocks to the environment. We're (mostly) the converted here on this forum. If its a solo mission, and I don't need oodles of kit, I'd much prefer to mix up bikes and trains (although many of the railway co's make that as difficult as possible), but it just doesn't work cost wise most of the time, unless I can bill it as expenses. I had to go to the hospital this morning. 30 minutes each way on the bike in sleet. I might have knocked off 5 mins in the car, but I'd have got stung for parking. Every single person I spoke to was incredulous that I'd chosen to ride in that weather, and wasn't I cold??? Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they've always done.
How many people need to work in office spaces now anyway or drive/train to that meeting.
Schrodingers Air Quality? Well, are they producing great billowing clouds of smog at the park and ride or not?
And like* the cat, that is a roundabout way of saying please open the box and cite a source for the decline in air quality around the park and ride so we can see if it's higher or lower.
*actually nothing like the quantum physics phenomenon it relates to. But I'd still like to see you justify with real data how people parking at a park and ride is worse than driving past it into the city center.
Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they’ve always done.
Nope, you're wrong. This is perfect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
People are twice as affected psychologically by losses (being fined in this example). Comparatively, they're blase about the money they never had (e.g. the opportunity to save it by getting the train/bus/bike/walk).
I had no idea the area was so large. (ref Birmingham CAZ)
Check out the up-coming Greater Manchester CAZ then come back and re-write that.
My view - CAZ's are great but because they're run by the locals there are inconsistencies all over the place. CO2 based, commercial vehicles only, inside 'ring road' includes 'ring road'. Like anything new the issues get sorted out over time. The one that's most likely to affect me (Greater Manchester - because I route through the eastern side of it to get to the whole western Motorway network and I have a T5 based California as my car) only applies to older commercial vehicles - why not all vehicles that don't meet the emissions criteria?
In partial support of the OP, a 2006 diesel 5-series would only have to pay in Birmingham, not Bath, Bradford, Manchester or Portsmouth. That's just daft. My van - I'd have to pay in Birmingham, Bradford and Greater Manchester but not Bath or Portsmouth.
@footflaps
Your not supposed to know it's all dumped in the south china seas.
Or it's burnt some of it only gets as far as eastern Europe before it's burned in scrap yards and the streets.
Stop buying stuff year on year for sake of it and we solve the issue.
Off tangent I know but how many of you have a log burner and really need one 5%
Need 2 bikes or that fancy phone that is the same as last year's?
It's all one issue not clean air or less c02 it's one planet.
Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they’ve always done.
Since you're referencing sheffield it's probably relevant to note that the council are trying to do just that, for example with bus lane changes on abbeydale and eccy roads. The people you're talking about are totally up in arms about that, so maybe they're not so interested in positive incentives after all...
Although what actaully happens is we just export most of our ‘recycling’ to the far east where they either burn it or dump it in the Pacific….
Although that makes a nice Daily Mail headline it isn’t something that is commonplace - you are always going to get people who want to act illegally.
Having being involved and understanding the processes involved in exporting waste I know it’s not an east task to do. The vast majority of recycling does in fact get recycled.
These schemes do strike me as a way of pricing the poor off the road so that the wealthy can drive about without any traffic jams
Poorer people are far more likely to be the victims of poor air quality, and are far less likely to own a car. And given that a 15 year old petrol car is compliant, it's difficult to see how anyone who could previously afford to run a car is being priced off the road.
@thisisnotaspoon I never typed the air was worse or better I said it moved the problem...
There may be more dead cats due to higher traffic on the roads I'm not sure if Erwin Schrödinger is from Leicester but if he left his cat on a busy road in a box then well. Real or not.
Maybe i’m Just out of touch but it definitely makes me not go back to Birmingham and warn others about fines.
Is that not precisely the purpose of the zone?
Some of the attitudes and opinions in here, demonstrate why the planet is ****ed.
pk13
Free Member
@thisisnotaspoon I never typed the air was worse or better I said it moved the problem…
And gave zero data to back up that assertion. Which even at a funny look test seems to fall appart as those cars are now stopping at a park and ride outside of town, rather than driving past it.
Meaning less miles traveled.
And less time idleing in city center traffic.
And air pollution is very localised. Particulates emitted on a motorway are unlikely to cause issues as they disperse by the wind or get removed from the air by rain. So it really is only an issue when the traffic is concentrated into a city center over a prolonged period. A P+R filling and emptying once a day won't cause an issue (unless, you actually have data to back up your point. Unfortunately like most negatives mines hard to prove so the burdens on you I'm affraid).
No brum wants you to go and spend your cash in the city. Work in it build in it ect. They did let a new concrete site open just off the m6 thou.
They are more than happy I believe the young uns call it green washing
But the air issues have just moved 2 miles away? Someone else’s problem I guess they want commerce and the cash but don’t want the issues it brings.
The park and ride in Leicester Forrest east is a prime example loads of pollution around suburban homes to get a bus into the city who gets the clean air.
There may well be specific issues at specific sites but lets say there are 4 Park n Ride facilities that means that each one has only 1/4 of the traffic of the city centre. Moreover because there's less congestion (because 1/4 of the traffic at each one, and possibly better infrastructure) there is less of the most problematic pollution. On top of which the geography around PnR facilities usually is much more open rather than rightly packed tall buildings so pollution has a greater opportunity to disperse.
Maybe i’m Just out of touch but it definitely makes me not go back to Birmingham and warn others about fines
I suggest if you do go back, that you use a form of transport that doesn't polute, or pay the charge.
From the Uk gov website: "Air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to health in the UK, with between 28,000 and 36,000 deaths a year attributed to long-term exposure. "
Yet, people are upset that schemes which try to reduce this cost them. In the grand scheme of motoring, a fine of 60pounds (for failing to see the signs) is very little. Motoring has also got cheaper and cheaper in real terms over the last 20 years.
Another view could be helping to help protect the health of the poor and vulnerable who can’t afford to live in ‘nice’ areas
Lol, I don't think there's many poor people in most city centres these days, they've all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty "luxury" apartments.
As poly asked nicely and left cats out of it.
I lived close to that site.
Busy all day
Inconsiderate drivers
Black windows from smog/ soot.
Unable to put washing out to dry due to smell.
Windows unopened in summer.
It may have been put in the wrong location it may not be.
Traffic increase was witnessed we moved.
But I'm small minded and burning the world down because I don't have data.
Thank you poly for asking without bringing dead cats into it.
Even Steven hawking dismissed it somewhat.
Some of the attitudes and opinions in here, demonstrate why the planet is ****
Nah, "inside dubai playground of the rich" on BBC shows where the real problem lies, they're just amateurs on here
Thank you poly for asking without bringing dead cats into it.
pk13 - so no imagine how much worse it is in the city centre with even more traffic condensed in a smaller area!
pk13
No brum wants you to go and spend your cash in the city. Work in it build in it ect. They did let a new concrete site open just off the m6 thou.
I lived in Brum until 2013. I lived in Kings Heath. The buses to the city centre used to come every five minutes. Literally. The main road through Kings Heath was, at one, point, the most polluted road in Europe.
Birmingham has some of the best public transport provision outside London. There is simply no need for an able-bodied clerical worker to drive into the city centre from the outskirts.
I get it for tradies and those on call, but even then our local authority has offered grants and loans to people to replace their non-compliant vehicles. I bet Brum did as well.
So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
She uses more fuel less nox I assume but the tanker that delivers extra fuel is pumping it out.Not exactly joined up thinking is it. Reduced speed limits and enforcement would have reduced fuel consumption and nox.
What was the cost differential between the old and new car? How many journeys would that have covered?
And presumably if it was perfectly good, you didn't scrap it, you sold it, so it's still going strong. If you did scrap it then you are at fault for excessive waste of resources, not the COuncil!
Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty “luxury” apartments.
Clearly haven't been to Brum recently then. THere are whole swathes of residential areas which are some of the most deprived within the inner ring road, such as Highgate, Ladywood etc.
People are twice as affected psychologically by losses (being fined in this example). Comparatively, they’re blase about the money they never had (e.g. the opportunity to save it by getting the train/bus/bike/walk).
There's a bloke in our local paper who, rather than pay the occasional fine for using his Mazda Bongo (so a leisure vehicle, not even a work vehicle like a van), decided to completely move house and job, abd buy an additional car. He was even offered a grant from the council, which he refused. The cost to that rather than simply occasionally paying £9 must be huge.
"That would include their waste collection vehicles that have to go into CAZ but they still are paying the costs because they aren’t trying to shirk their responsibilities."
Apart from the Council vehicles that went into the zone and did not pay - sounds exactly like shirking their responsibilities to me.
