[Closed] Bin Laden has won...

I think he might be losing it a little.

Yesterday's twitter storm still raging then?

Really puts molgrips' lunch expenses woes into perspective doesn't it.

It was probably a jar of very rare ,Manuka super cure honey.

🙂

Who?

Yesterday's twitter storm still raging then?

Alas, we cannot all be on the bleeding edge.

Who?

Richard Dawkins. HTH.

Was it in date?

It was probably a jar of very rare ,Manuka super cure honey.

Nectar Of The Gods 😉

...There was little sympathy today in response to the tweets regarding the confiscated honey.

Shocker.

But he is right.. We have fundamentally changed our way of living, wasted a huge amount of resource and increased the risk of terrorism thanks to Bin Laden and the US response to his attacks.

He does have a point - the nett amount of 'terror' in the world population has increased dramatically in the last 10 or so years.

The response to people's concerns by governments is sometimes arbitrary and disproportionate.

Oh bee have.

The 9/11 attacks were an atrocity, and it is difficult to imagine any objective the achievement of which would have justified them.

But if it was just to do with making sure Dawkins couldn't transport jars of honey in his cabin baggage that makes them even more deranged. The mind boggles.

Was it runny or set?

The objective of 9/11 was to terrorise.

Bin Laden succeeded.

The western governments have responded disproportionately (there are many more pressing issues that the world faces) - an example of this disproportionate response is that we now follow ridiculous rules at airport security.

Wonder if he called the security staff 'rule bound dundridges' to their faces? You can almost hear the snap of the rubber gloves 😆

You can almost hear the snap of the rubber gloves

They would have probably used the honey as lube...

Oh bee have

Oh bee hive?

I suggest he writes a tweet threatening to blow up the airport. That'll teach 'em...

Rachel

Oh bee have

Oh bee hive?

Surprisingly, there is nothing on Buzzfeed about it yet.

God moves in mysterious ways indeed.

I'd have told them to buzz off.

Right after I'd got my coat.

He's right. I can't be arsed with flying anymore because of all the hassle, and I certainly won't go to the US again.

As with many things he says, he is kind of right but you don't want to agree with him because he comes across as so shrill and pompous.

There was a good article about 'security theatre' I saw a while ago but I can't remember where.

Fair enough, aspects of flying, etc, can be a pain, and if I'd have been in his position I'd have had a whinge about it, but tweeting it just made him look like a sanctimonious git. You may be an intelligent bloke Dawkins, but FFS get some perspective. 🙄

That's an apollen story.

I very nearly got taken into a side room (at an airport) by a angry looking bloke who had a big gun and a pair of rubber gloves.

Apparently malt loaf looks an awful lot like plastic explosives in an x-ray!

We all laughed about it in the end.

http://toys.usvsth3m.com/richard-dawkins-honey-defender/

I think he might be losing it a little.

No he completely lost it many years ago.

I used to be an Atheist, but he converted me to Agnosticism, as I didn't want to be associated with his deranged ranting....

To be fair - if Bin Laden has been a bit clearer about his objective in the first place- to deny proselytising born-again atheists something sticky and sweet to spread on their toast - this hole business sordid business would have been done and dusted years ago.

Security theatre is right - it's all about being seen to be doing something rather than being effective. He's absolutely right that it's ridiculous and disproportionate but I don't think he's done himself any favours due to the petty nature of his "incident".

Trust the media to swarm all over a story that is sweet and sticky.

But he is right.. We have fundamentally changed our way of living, wasted a huge amount of resource and increased the risk of terrorism thanks to Bin Laden and the US response to his attacks.

Indeed, and it's particularly grating because pre the Twin Towers attacks, the US was seen as the week link airport security wise worldwide, and absolutely refused to change their ways to bring themselves inline with international standards. They didn't want their passengers inconvenienced.

I used to be an Atheist, but he converted me to Agnosticism, as I didn't want to be associated with his deranged ranting....

Was their a particular rant you can point me to that earns that 'deranged' honour?

Was their a particular rant you can point me to that earns that 'deranged' honour?

The whole of The God Delusion perhaps?

The objective of 9/11 was to terrorise.

Bin Laden succeeded.

I'm not sure that's correct. The 11/9 attacks were merely what was threatened many years previously if the US didn't stop melding in the Middle East illegally. The loss of TWA800 was originally thought to be the promised attack, until it transpired that it was merely an accident. As I've said (countless times before) one of the TWA800 documentaries that was on actually has the warning from Bin Laden in it. The TWA800 accident was in 1996, so obviously the warning pre-dated this.

Security theatre is right - it's all about being seen to be doing something rather than being effective. He's absolutely right that it's ridiculous and disproportionate but I don't think he's done himself any favours due to the petty nature of his "incident".

Surely that was the whole point, though? When something as small and insignificant as a pot of honey is seen as a threat you know that the terrorists have won?

Terrorism is basically a big PR stunt. Look at me I'm so bad I did....

Success is having your target react in such a way your notoriety gains you influence and power.

The TSA, amongst others are still providing the Bin Laden / terrorist brand with this.

He won.

Bloody waste of my time while travelling and my hard earned tax money.

Yep. Gotta say . Dawkins does come off as a bit of a loon.

They're just trying to prevent a drone attack.

The whole of The God Delusion perhaps?

Yep.

I was a massive Dawkins fan in his early years. I loved The Blind Watchmaker, The Extended Phenotype, The Selfish Gene etc, but once he became a full time God botherer basher, he just seemed to be as bad as the God botherers. Put me right off Atheism.

I've read 'The God Delusion'. I found no ranting. Just measured arguments. No 'shrill'-ness either. Perhaps you meant WBC?

Grum: could you point to one please? I have a copy on kindle; if you shout I can quickly check.

Bin Laden has won? Interesting thought - what were we fighting him for? To defend "our" way of life, freedoms and morality against an extremist vision of the world, where "rights" of the individual don't really exist, subsumed by the greater 'morality' of the dogmatist. In defending our freedoms, according to today's Grauniad, among other things:

Doctors and psychologists working for the US military violated the ethical codes of their profession under instruction from the defence department and the CIA to become involved in the torture and degrading treatment of suspected terrorists, an investigation has concluded.

The report of the Taskforce on Preserving Medical Professionalism in National Security Detention Centres concludes that after 9/11, health professionals working with the military and intelligence services "designed and participated in cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment and torture of detainees".

Do you think, at any point along the way, people doing this stop for a moment and think, hang on a minute, aren't the rights and freedoms we're violating here the ones we're supposedly doing this in defence of? Is that not a wee bit paradoxical?

Bin Laden may have won the ironing competition then.

Full article here if anyone's interested:

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/cia-doctors-torture-suspected-terrorists-9-11 ]Linky[/url]

When something as small and insignificant as a pot of honey is seen as a threat you know that the terrorists have won?

Umm.. a pot of honey is not considered a thread.

Fluids are considered a potential threat, due to the possibility of a liquid bomb being assembled. I thought everyone knew this?

Fluids are considered a potential threat, due to the possibility of a liquid bomb being assembled. I thought everyone knew this?

Not Richard Dawkins apparently. Too busy bothering God botherers....

@footflaps

Its not like atheism has a doctrine that you can convert from or too. To be agnostic you have to have something to be agnostic about. In this case you would seem to be agnostic about the claim that a god exists, therefore you're still an atheist. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

I see them as a sliding scale, with radical religion at one extreme, Agnosticism / CoE in the middle and the militant church of Dawkins at the other end. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if he started blowing up Mosques and Churches at some point.

Wow, footflaps, you compare someone who writes books and give lectures to someone who murders and blows up people based upon their religion? 😯

They're both radical, just one is a bit more radical. Still both extremes compared to middle of the road, don't really believe in God, but attend Church for the social side CoE stuff....

I had a spoon confiscated at Heathrow security a few months back. My outrage didn't make the papers, sadly.

Welcome to the world of zombies Prof Dawkins.

You have forgotten the power of zombie bureaucrats ... they are most lethal and live amongst us all.

They are bunch of job worth that is in direct rule of your life. Religions? Nahhh ... they are secondary by comparison.

You need to bow down to the almighty zombie bureaucrats.

Zombie bureaucrats ... they eat you alive!!! Fact!

🙄

p/s: Zombie bureaucrat took away my new key chain at Heathrow airport saying that I could use it to strangle the pilots ... he actually wanted it but on the pretext of security and confiscating it. (I was flying out) I did not want to give it to him so I cut the wire and I took it away ... maggot. Next time if he travels to other part of the world he should be taxed for breathing the air and should be given full cavity search.

Not the case footflaps.

Theism is the positive assertion that a god/gods exist.

You have 2 options. You either accept this assertion or you reject it.

By rejecting the assertion you are not denying the existence or even possibility of existence. You are are just not accepting the claim as true. This would however make you an atheist.

"gnosticism" deals with what you know, or claim to know. A Fundamentalists christian "knows" that there is a god, however there will be plenty of religious types who believe yet will say that they do not know for sure, who would be agnostic theists.

By the same token you sound like an agnostic atheist.

agnostic atheist.

For Bin Laden read Emmanuel Goldstein.

Dawkins should be mad at the CIA, NSA and PNAC, except he's not very bright so he isn't.

A "what is atheism" thread is going to be much less fun without TJ.

Why does Richard Dawkins want to help to perpetuate the myths regarding the the goals of Al-Qaeda ?

Al-Qaeda couldn't give a monkeys about "our democracy", or anything else to do with our way of life. Their goals are very clear and two-fold. Firstly they want western military bases out of Muslim countries, and secondly, they want all Muslim countries to be ruled as strict Islamic states under sharia law. As Takfiris they accuse most Muslims, and all secular governments in Muslim countries, of apostasy.

Pissing us off might well be their strategy but it's certainly not their goal. They haven't "won" because Dawkins has been inconvenienced. They will have won when their stated goals have been achieved.

Although I accept that western governments want to deliberately mislead people as to the aims of Al-Qaeda, for example US governments often claim that Al-Qaeda is purely motivated by a hatred of western democracy, and this sufficiently blurs the picture so that people don't ask too many questions, I fail to understand why Dawkins needs to do so too.

Al-Qaeda is an extremely nasty organisation with an extremely nasty ideology and it needs to be eradicated. Misrepresenting their aims and goals won't help to achieve that.

Flybe?

He's completely right, it's pretty bloody stupid. He has said some unpopular things with the religious lot so of course they go all ad-hominem. I don't find him at all shrill in fact he's not aggressive enough, to say he is not bright is, frankly, ludicrous.

ernie_lynch - Member
Al-Qaeda is an extremely nasty organisation with an extremely nasty ideology and it needs to be eradicated. Misrepresenting their aims and goals won't help to achieve that.

I've read 'The God Delusion'. I found no ranting. Just measured arguments. No 'shrill'-ness either. Perhaps you meant WBC?

Grum: could you point to one please? I have a copy on kindle; if you shout I can quickly check.

I've read it too and found virtually the whole thing to be completely pointless intellectual masturbation.

I'm not even slightly religious and I indeed agree with some of the points Dawkins makes, but I have absolutely no time for his pompous, blinkered, prejudiced writing. He does the 'cause' of atheism no favours whatsoever.

He is also a fan of Pat Condell who is quite blatantly a racist.

Big Dawkins fan and I'd agree with him. I have trouble carrying a nasal spray on planes these days.

Dawkins is a bigger fundamentalist than any person of faith I've ever met in my life. And I'm old.

This book is excellent and anyone with a brain will be able to pick holes in Dawkins' dogma
[img] [/img]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Science-Delusion-Rupert-Sheldrake/dp/144472794X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1323970188&sr=1-1-spell

I used to be an Atheist, but he converted me to Agnosticism, as I didn't want to be associated with his deranged ranting....

Dawkins doesn't claim to be Atheist, he says he's Agnostic. Come back to the fold.

He's a hiving a laugh, isn't he ....

Dawkins doesn't claim to be Atheist, he says he's Agnostic. Come back to the fold.

It's too late. I've discovered CoE, nice cup of tea and a biscuit with the neighbours once a week. Barely anyone mentions God and the Vicar is just so charming, plus the gossip is amazing, you'll never guess what the couple at number 17 were up to last week.....

Dawkins is a bigger fundamentalist than any person of faith I've ever met in my life. And I'm old.

Really? You never had someone knocking on your door to tell you about their pet faith, passing out leaflets in the street ect ect. Religious sanctimony and indoctrination is part of everyday life, it has soaked into far too many parts of life it shouldn't touch.

By comparison atheists like Dawkins write for those who want to read, you have to go out and find it, his words are not sung in school assemblies, sworn over in legal proceedings or muttered with bowed heads before officialdom.

Really? You never had someone knocking on your door to tell you about their pet faith, passing out leaflets in the street ect ect

I consider that completely harmless.

Not so sure about Dawkins, he seems one step away from putting bombs in mosques...

Not so sure about Dawkins, he seems one step away from putting bombs in mosques...

Then you have never read anything he has written, but just jumped on the ingrained religious bandwagon, to condemn a man who dares question their medieval superstitions.

This book is excellent and anyone with a brain will be able to pick holes in Dawkins' dogma

That book is just a complete lie from cover to cover, it's attempts to pick holes in science would be laughable if there were not people stupid enough to believe them.

Guy Fawkes has won!

Just the other day I went to parliament to visit the public gallery, and would you believe that they confiscated my [b]harmless[/b] rucksack, in which I was carrying my weekly shopping - flour eggs, paint, bleach, lighter fluid and darts.

Its the security state gone mad, I can tell you!

Or..

Parliment is a high risk high value target.

As opposed to an airplane which is low risk (a low percentage are targeted) and arguably low value.

Interesting article here

[url= http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/12/tsa-insanity-201112 ]http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/12/tsa-insanity-201112[/url]

ninfan - Member

Just the other day I went to parliament to visit the public gallery, and would you believe that they confiscated my harmless rucksack, in which I was carrying my weekly shopping - flour eggs, paint, bleach, lighter fluid and darts.

You are Eric Joyce and I claim my five pounds.

Then you have never read anything he has written, but just jumped on the ingrained religious bandwagon, to condemn a man who dares question their medieval superstitions.

and you haven't read much of this thread.....

The powers that be want you to believe that Terrorism is the number one enemy in the Western World.

Meanwhile a child dies every 5 seconds from starvation.

Are we not just completely brainwashed by the powers that be to divert attention from the real problems?

just sayin 😕

Dawkins haters baited. Hook, line and sinker...

[b]Are we not just completely brainwashed [/b]by the powers that be to divert attention from the real problems?
just sayin

No.

World hunger is hardly a secret is it.

No governments or "powers that be" are telling us there isn't a problem are they ?

No governments or "powers that be" are telling us there isn't a problem are they ?

No but they are moving it well down the list of problems that are presented as needing to be addressed with any urgency.

When I look at the size of the response to approximately 2,000 USA deaths from terrorism, I look forward to the response to the merchants of death who kill millions world wide each year.

Daily I scan the papers for reports of USA drones being flown into the boardrooms of the tobacco terrorists. Haven't seen anything yet, but it must be soon.

Maybe Dawkins honey was needed for the drones? 🙂

World hunger is hardly a secret is it.

No governments or "powers that be" are telling us there isn't a problem are they ?

Occasionally, maybe once every month or two there is a 10 minute feature on the ten o'clock news reminding us all how lucky we are and that there are in fact people starving in the world, and we should do something like red-nose to try and help.

I hear about this or that person from a terrorist organisation almost daily on the news.

So yes, we do know. But no, the exposure isnt anywhere close as it is with Terrorism.