[Closed] Big up to the Rebel MP's !

The UK electorate cannot be trusted with referendums on complex issues.

some balls? to make a pointless gesture that if it became reality would do massive harm to the UK interest?

Its just xenophobia

The only good aspect is the massive damage this does to Cameron and the wedge it helps drive between the LIB Dems and the Tories.

the sooner this corrupt government falls the better. The damage they are doing is getting worse by the day

to make a pointless gesture that if it became reality would do massive harm to the UK interest?

A referendum would do massive harm?
I disagree. A negative result would, but giving the people a say about anything is in our interests IMHO.

Tough like a ninja sting like a bee!

Yes well done....bit belated though. Song came out in 1990.

I'm sort of with TJ, which bizarrely means I'm with David Cameron also, a referendum with the questions "Stay in the EU, Leave the EU or renegotiate the terms of our membership" is going to achieve what exactly?

A referendum would do massive harm?
I disagree. A negative result would, but giving the people a say about anything is in our interests IMHO.

We elect MP's to make decisions, not to have referendums about everything, the stupidity of many of the epetitions actually highlight the gullibility of the population to be manipulated by the media.
The UK populace was given a chance to reform the voting system, but bought into the media's campaign instead of taking the opportunity, then moan about lack of representation.

We cannot renegotiate our position in the EU. this is a non starter. leaving he EU would be massively damaging and every sensible politician knows this.

So a referendum would be pointless.

This is the issue they 'find some balls' over? They are quite happy to tow the party line on shafting the disabled, wrecking the NHS etc, but not this?

The UK electorate cannot be trusted with referendums on complex issues

You trust idiots in suits who refuse their electorate the right to chose?

The EU has gradually deteriorated. Camerons words 'if your neighbours house is on fire'....

....run with wads of money to throw onto the fire hey Cameron?

I wouldn't trust you with a referendum on a complex issue Hora. No offence like.

You trust idiots in suits who refuse their electorate the right to chose?

You got to choose the idiots in suits, that's how the system works.

The UK populace was given a chance to reform the voting system,

Yeah, as you said we should have just left it to the politicians to decide.

As far as I'm aware the govt would not have had to act on the results of the referendum so it would have enabled them to gauge the feelings of the populace. Also the options of our involvement in europe is more than in or out. It's how far in or out.
I'm not a euro sceptic BTW, I just like the politicians to listen to us.

wrecker - in or out are the only possible options. There is precisely zero possibility of " renegotiation"

grum +1 The world economy is buggered and we're all going to die of war, hunger or hot weather and they choose this to argue over.

Embarrassing really.

sorry but I agree with deadlydarcy - WE might have the wherewithall and intelligence to make the right decision in a referendum, but 99% of the general public are thick, get most of the information on politics from the daily mail or sun, and could not be trusted with a bargepole to make the sort of decision that politicians should be making.
I'm not [i]really[/i] even sure they can be trusted to elect the correct political party in general elections, why else have we got the tories in the first place - most people choose politicians based on looks ffs. Blair looks prettier than Major, Cameron looks prettier than Gordon Brown.

I'd like MP's to have some balls on all the important issues.

Can't see the point in them if they just do as the boss says.

I think they missed an opportunity with the last referendum. It should have had more questions on it. Then at least we would know which way the country wants to go...

What other questions?

So you are telling me you are more enlightened?

Do you think the majority of the people (WHO VOTE) close their eyes and pop a cross?

Don't forget- generally the people who don't vote are apathetic for a reason; low intelligence, read the Sun or Star, think their week is about cigs and smacking someone.

At risk of generalising myself- please don't peddle out that line.

Italy is teetering under a bafoon- it was cringeworthy that Merkel and Sarkosy both grinned at the question put to them over il Toucher.

I'm not really even sure they can be trusted to elect the correct political party in general elections

There isn't one!

I'm not really even sure they can be trusted to elect the [s]correct[/s] political party that I want to see win in general elections

FTFY.

Darcy baited his hook well....

but 99% of the general public are thick

I wouldn't go that far. Some of the stupid are those who would chose to leave all together, but the real thickos are the ones who thought we could withdraw and keep our free trade agreement with the EU whilst ditching all that horrible "socialist stuff" like EU human rights laws, citing Switzerland among others as the example, even though Switzerland has never been part of the EU.

Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it.

So everyone who voted for or against proportional representation (basically a 'referendum'?) was swayed by the big media PR campaign for the 'yes' vote?

Or maybe they did abit of reading, talking to others before deciding?

Darcy makes a very valid point.

Don't forget- generally the people who don't vote are apathetic for a reason; low intelligence, read the Sun or Star, think their week is about cigs and smacking someone.

Um... 😯

I did vote in the last GE (Lib Dem, see where that got me), but I didn't vote in the previous one, or the one before that. Why? Because I'm an apathetic, stupid Sun or Star reader?? No, because there is NO PARTY TO VOTE FOR, no party that (a) has a clue, (b) gives a **** and (c) satisfies the base requirements of honesty, integrity and talent.

There's loads of people who think the same. Most of them aren't stupid, although a fair few might read the Sun. Mmmm... boobies.

This is the issue they 'find some balls' over? They are quite happy to tow the party line on shafting the disabled, wrecking the NHS etc, but not this?

^ This.

Democracy is often touted as the be all and end all, but just consider that you can quite easily have far too much democracy for your own good.
By definition, the higher up the IQ scale you go, the fewer people you have inhabiting it, but it's these people you want having more sway in decisions.
If I was in hospital I wouldn't want a public referendum on how to do my kidney transplant or double heart bypass operation, so when it's britain that's on the operating table, I'm not sure it's any different.

If I was in hospital I wouldn't want a public referendum on how to do my kidney transplant or double heart bypass operation, so when it's britain that's on the operating table, I'm not sure it's any different.

If the people we have in power were intelligent, capable specialists I would take your point 100%.

but 99% of the general public are thick

What about the other 2%?

What about the other 2%?

Applauds 🙂

having read through the thread, i've decided that there are more quotes to cut/paste and argue with than i have time for.

i'll just give you the shorthand of my replies:

[img] [/img]

The thing is, most of my friends are reasonably intelligent and well-educated - the vast majority of them have absolutely zero idea of the issues involved in leaving/staying in the EU. I am more interested in politics than most of them and I wouldn't really claim to know that much about it either. The idea that the average person can make any meaningful choice about this is nonsense imo. I don't really care if that's considered elitist.

BTW this is Rebel MC's best track IMO 🙂

exactly - and these people make up about 99% of the 1% who [i]aren't[/i] the clueless proles. The people who have any idea of what's involved are 1% of 1%.

camo16 - Member
...but I didn't vote in the previous one, or the one before that. Why? Because I'm an apathetic, stupid Sun or Star reader?? No, because there is NO PARTY TO VOTE FOR, no party that (a) has a clue, (b) gives a **** and (c) satisfies the base requirements of honesty, integrity and talent...

then vote 'green', you may or may not want them to win, but their heart is in the right place, your vote helps them keep their deposit, and it stops gits like me saying 'if you didn't vote, you can't complain'...

"IF you imagine that yesterday’s mass rebellion by Eurosceptic Tory MPs is only of interest to anoraks, think again. It demonstrates that there are now three parties in the coalition: the anti-Cameron Tory rebels who will be voting against him at every opportunity; the centrist Cameroon Tories, many of whom actually agree with the rebels but are pro-leadership out of self-interest; and the Liberal Democrats. "

TJ

I can only give you my questions on our future (prepares for a slating..)

1. World overpopulation? Directly linked to Global warming? What do we do about?

2. How do we stop the HR treaty being used for the wrong things?

3. Euthanasia, I'd like to choose.

4. Immigration

Feel free to add your own, shall we cap it at 20?

WE might have the wherewithall and intelligence to make the right decision in a referendum, but 99% of the general public are thick

After the 2+2+2+2+2x0 farce I'm not sure that "WE" are qualified to decide anything.

tbh I was devastated that so many voted against, I can't believe at least some of Red Ed's lot didn't join the fray.

To misjudge the mood of the country so badly.

Frankly all it does is enforce the hopelessness of our current situation, a badly needed reforming Government hamstrung by handwringing Liberal wets and an opposition so badly compromised by a fratricidal **** so in thrall to the Unions, that no-one can take them seriously.

Who the **** can you seriously vote for?

One point is true, the unwritten rule of the house, that if all the party leaders are in agreement then generally they are wrong.

The thing that is going to really get them is the growth in the 'occupy wall street' movement, what's going on stateside, I seriously think we could be in for a bit of an upheaval, it is time that Westminster bubble got burst.

well, we were given a chance to change the system (AV) - we didn't want it.

we were given a choice: something new / carry on as before.

we've got want we want.

Brave to stand up to the whips but [b]spectacularly naive in their timing[/b]

Policitical gimmicks (epetition) weaken the concept of representative government, but[b] if you chose to have them you have to live with the consequences,[/b] even when you dont like them

C'mon lets be serious with the 99% are thick comments - you either have a democracy/freedom of expression or you don't. Who is anyone to determine who is intelligent enough to vote?

But is we are to hold the 99% of the population are too thick to have a say, then drop the complaints about the % of oxbridge grads in government.

Inconsistent to reject the ability to protest against Europe (however) badly timed, but support the right to protest in front of St Pauls and Dale Farm. Rather selective methinks!

All my life I voted LibDem (SDP) was where I came in, the one time I voted Tory (I hate Clegg because of his pseudo Godlessness, not because he's Godless per se just because it demonstrates that his word is worth nothing) the Lib Dems get handed some power and look how they've squandered it. AV was a stupid contrivance and was turned down as such, full PR should have been what was on offer, then that's now off the table for all time afaics.

I wouldn't trust you with a referendum on a complex issue Hora

...and you are highbrow enough to make that assumption?

It's Congo Natty Time

not because he's Godless per se just because it demonstrates that his word is worth nothing

[IMG] [/IMG]

they arent showing balls, just stupidity

why exactly would cameron, hague and the 200+ other torries etc who ranted and raved about referndums and the EU in opposition suddenly become europhiles when in power?

because they know that the bullshit they spouted previously was just empty rhetoric to cynically win the votes of gullible, xenophobic, biggoted electorate who may or may not be thick, read the sun, mail, telegraph etc

they know the UK needs the EU, we need to be part of the EU and we need to have influence in the EU

the UK has already found itself shut out of the talks on the eurozone and torry rebels & cameron, hague etc mouthing off to please the europhobes at home has only made it more likely that any deal struck will be to the detrement of the UK

well, we were given a chance to change the system (AV) - we didn't want it.

Actually we were given nowt, we had an expensive vote about a system that neither the Lib dems or anyone else wanted against the status quo....shockingly staying where we were won the day in those circumstances. 😯