[Closed] Best way to run heating

I presume you have a thermostat?

Thermostatic rads

hmm, not quite the same thing - TRVs on rads will just stop the hot water from getting to individual rads while the boiler ploughs on burning your money.

Do you not have a central thermostat dial connected in with your CH timer? If not, I'd seriously look at getting one. That way your heating will only be on when your house needs warming, it will cut in and out as needed to maintain the temperature.

Dave

you'll struggle to keep any house warm if it's got ineffective insulation.

Reason for keeping house warm is we have a 3.5 yr old who likes to strip at will and a 4 month old baby.

That's not a very good reason.

Will do. Is it and expensive thing to get done?

Loft insulation is done, cant get walls done as they are solid. All double glazed.

Just read my post, I have put the date backwards. Its ment to be 1890s terrace. Doh.

Will do. Is it and expensive thing to get done?

Needn't be - you may be able to wire a thermostat into your CH controller, or worst case get a new controller.

If you do get a new controller, take the opportunity to get a decent one that can be programmed with times and temperatures together, lots of these can learn how long your house takes to react, and can cut heating in and out before thresholds are reached to minimise the time the boiler is actually running.

Someone professional may be along in a minute with better advice (my advice is just from DIY experience). If not, get yourself over to the [url= http://www.diynot.com/forums/ ]DIYNot Forum[/url] and ask there - if you find out the model of your boiler and controller, they can probably give you specific advice.

Dave

Thanks for the advice.

You can do the walls from the inside. A solid wall in English bricks isn't even R = 0.4. Adding 8cm of polyester and plasterboard at R = 2 brings you up to R = 2.5.

Your floor is currently no doubt boards over a ventilated space R = .3. Adding 12cm of polyester between the joists will get you R = 3.

With a sixth of the heat loss through the walls and a tenth through the floor you won't need to worry about when to run the heating, a couple of hours in the evening will do.

I like the idea of putting insulation between the floor boards. Need to evict OH and kids for a bit though. Maybe a spring thing.

Adding 8cm of polyester and plasterboard

Great, but do you save as much in heating bills as losing a big chunk of floor space in a "1890s terrace" lowers the value?

Dunno how old my current digs are, probbaly older than 1890 but not by much, alls look like at least 2 layers of brick, the back wall must be 8-10", the front 6-8". They're suprisingly warm, untill last week the thermostat was set to 17deg 5am-7am (I get up arround 6:30), and again 4:30-8:00 (I get home arround 6) and I'd never been in the house while the heating had been on!

I'd fit a thermostat and set it to be on BEFORE you want it, no point having it come on at 6 when you get home and off at 10 when you go to bed, it wont warm up till 9. Give it a good 2 hour head start and chuck a jumper on later in the evening.

Have you been round and checked for draughts? Badly fitting doors/windows can be sorted pretty cost effectively and you'll notice a difference. I rented a place a couple of years back that had a shocking front door and that actually was a 1[b]98[/b]0s build...

alfabus - Member
hmm, not quite the same thing - TRVs on rads will just stop the hot water from getting to individual rads while the boiler ploughs on burning your money.

Surely the boiler will only carry on working until the water is at the required temperature?
If the house is warm enough that the thermo valves on the radiators close, then water is only flowing to one radiator (usually there is one that doesn't have a thermo valve on so there is always a circuit for water to flow around). So, it won't take long before that radiator is at maximum temperature and the boiler shuts down until the water temperature drops.

ie. it's only working to heat one radiator (usually the smallest one), and thus not using much energy?

What is the R value of single glazing vs single glazing with film secondary glazing?

This is my job for the weekend.

I've found the biggest influence on how quickly my flat heats up or cools down is the temperature of the flat below mine. Presumably in a terrace the temp of neighbours houses is an influence..?

Make a note of your meter reading run it for a few days as is then make another note and run it for a few days changed and see which uses less gas? Hopefully outside temps will be broadly similar.

1890s terrace here too. Still trying to get my head around the idea that I simultaneously need to block draughts [i]and [/i]add ventilation.

Some good advise there.

If it helps remote (radio controlled) thermostats are now available if running a wire from the controller to a central position is a problem.
Most modern boilers have an option to add one. This you could do yourself as its a multi pin plug job.

Do you have an I Phone? If so I am told there is an 'ap' for that. It reads temperature over a 24hr period. You can then view it as a map of temp/time. Make sure its not up to temp but you havent even left work yet etc..etc. May not be so useful if OH is in all day though. Still could help in mornings possibly.

1980's terrace house with solid walls - are you sure?

Maybe need to 'frig' your neighbours heating so their's is always on 🙂

We have smart meters so can show just how much in money we are using .Have just been told by plumber we need a new rad in daughters bedroom.

There was another thread about this the other day. Since then, I have set (I have no thermostat but have the Thermo Rad valves) the boiler temp to its lowest setting and left the heating on - 4 days now I think.

Via Kryton Jnrs baby monitor, I noticed his room crept to 22 degrees. With the heating at 4.30am - 7.30am, and 3.30pm to 10.30pm, it never went above 19 degrees. As its getting warmer inddors, I have slowly been going around the house lowering the Rad valves to suit (leaving the hallway fully open of course).

House is toasty, and (sad I know) I recorded the boiler running 13 minutes in every hour - not sure how many pence that is......

Great, but do you save as much in heating bills as losing a big chunk of floor space in a "1890s terrace" lowers the value?

How small are your rooms that losing 8cm off one wall is considered a "big chunk" that will devalue the property ?

Also, even if they do literally value the house by the Centimetre (which I doubt) it will increase by more due to the EPC being better ?

I have been doing internal "kingspan" insulation on Walls for ages, anything up to 15cm + Plasterboard. And you seriously don't notice the difference in room size once it's finished.

Once thing I'd like to add, ragarding all this "insulate here, fill up floor space there" stuff - how much does it cost?

I mean, If my "running-the-heating-all-winter" costs me only a proportion if induslating walls, lofts and floors to the nth degree, why bother eh?

One issue with internal insulation of walls is where floor joist penetrate into the wall space can get damp. Similar to adding insulation to most places in an existing house - you need to maintain the correct level of ventilation,

External wall insulation is better but generally more complicated.

I've insulated between the underside of my floorboards with phenolic foam and its made a big difference to how the floor feels underfoot.

This website has good info on all things green and refurb [url= http://www.greenspec.co.uk/html/refurb/refurbcontent.html ]green refurb[/url]

I presume you have heating you lucky bastard. snuggie and a duvet. If you are wandering about the house- poke holes in the snuggie/duvet combo. coal soup.

Windows are generally quoted for UW, the thermal resistance of the whole window. Secondary glazing will give you UW = 2. To get the R of the window R = 1/UW so for secondary glazing R = 0.5. Similar to an 1890s wall.

Approximate UWs for different types of glazing.

Single glazed = 5.7

Double glazed = 2

Double glazed 4/16/4 = 1.4

Best triple glazed or double with thermal memebrane 0.7

A recent double glazed window in an 1890s house will lose less heat than the wal around it.

So go ahead, CaptJon, you'll beter than halve the heat loss from the window.

Can't do anything more with out big expense. the rooms are big and pretty tall. They warm up quickly but you can just watch the digital thermometer tick down. may try the on most of time just very low trick.

Krypton, insulating the roof is no brainer, it costs a few hundred pounds and financially returns in a couple of years. The walls can be done internally for a couple of thousand pounds and return in 10 years. The floor will take a few hundred pounds worth of insulation (and usually an desperate crawl) and return in 10-15 years. Insulating on the outside costs a lot more, my neighbours paid 30 000e, and probably not return financially in your lifetime unless you're young. Even a DIY job costs about 10 000e.

ie. it's only working to heat one radiator (usually the smallest one), and thus not using much energy?

Still, any reasonably sized rad will dissipate ~2-3kw continuously - why waste it?

FWIW it's not worth heating the whole house for the kids sake - why not use storage heater or similar in the kids room alone, save heating the whole house for just the one person? Need to weigh up the overall costs of course.

Krypton, insulating the roof is no brainer, it costs a few hundred pounds and financially returns in a couple of years.

Costs less than that, just about every council in the land will give you free insulation or a free top-up to 270mm.

couple of decent replies.. to save money.. dont spend money.. fitting new thermostats etc will cost and frankly if you have trv's the saving would be minimal. understand what your base is.. take meter reading every day for a fortnight at same time.. then do some stuff like .. sort out draughts.. make sure curtains/ sofas dont cover rads.. close internal and external doors when you pass through them. those things cost nowt and save money.. oh and get the cheapest deal you can..

Increasingly these days I am made to wonder what people expect from their heating. It would appear that living in a temperate climate means that people expect to be 'warm' ie, able to swan about in shorts and a t-shirt and flip flops ALL THE TIME....

They move from over-heated houses, into cars with the heater on, into buildings heated to temps in the high 20s, then move back again, never ever having to wear any kind of clothes other than those they choose in the name of fashion.

How any children outside of equatorial Africa ever make it into adulthood seems to be a mystery, as no-one can ever grow up without having central heating on.

Presumably symptomatic, it would appear that people are unable to actually PUT SOME WARM CLOTHES ON.

The 3.5 year old who strips at will won't do it if the house is cold and her clothes are keeping her warm.

I despair sometimes; how can we ever use energy sensibly if people are trying to make the UK into some kind of tropical isle by turning the ****ing heating up?

Yeah but your ignoring individual physiology, Crikey. Makes me laugh when people bang on about 'putting extra clothes on' rather than being comfortable in yer own home.

Went round a neighbour's earlier; he's got his balcony door wide open. I din't even take me coat off. He thinks it's funny that I think it's a bit cold; it's some silly macho crap he's got going. Truth is, he's got high blood pressure, and drinks from about noon. so he simply does not in any way feel the cold like I do. come the summer, if it gets about 75ºF, he's 'too hot'. So he's a moany bastard from about May to October. I, on the other hand, am fine in warmer temperatures.

In my experience, those who originate from warmer climes tend to suffer the cold more than those who originate from the UK or Northern Yerp. It's all about physiology; an Ethiopian can run about in the hot sun, whereas a White Scottish person would keel over as their bodies can't physically cope with the heat in the same way. Horses for courses. Not to mention sunburn...

I have my flat at 20ºC during the day. Just right and comfortable if I'm wearing a jumper. Don't care what others think; if you want to live in a fridge, wearing all your clothes, you are free to do so in the comfort of your own home. Just don't expect me to come and visit bringing a nice bottle of wine or some snacks.

Your post reminds me of sleping in our van in Austria, Crikey. It was -20°C at night and -10°C at best. Kiddy could hardly move he had so many layers on. Next door the camper van had a 3.5kW genny going comstantly. Madame loked in and uttered words to the effect of, "FFS, he's wearing a T-shirt".

And who was more comfortable?

No doubt he was Elfin.

I like being cosy too. I just prefer to live in a well-insulated house that requires cooking a meal on the wood burner to keep it warm for the day than have cental heating firing up every hour.

"Went round a neighbour's earlier; he's got his balcony door wide open. I din't even take me coat off. He thinks it's funny that I think it's a bit cold; it's some silly macho crap he's got going. Truth is, he's got high blood pressure, and drinks from about noon. so he simply does not in any way feel the cold like I do. come the summer, if it gets about 75ºF, he's 'too hot'. So he's a moany bastard from about May to October. I, on the other hand, am fine in warmer temperatures."

Haha! I know someone exacltly like that!

"In my experience, those who originate from warmer climes tend to suffer the cold more than those who originate from the UK or Northern Yerp. It's all about physiology; an Ethiopian can run about in the hot sun, whereas a White Scottish person would keel over as their bodies can't physically cope with the heat in the same way. Horses for courses. Not to mention sunburn..."

You know it's not physiology! I just found out the other day that if you live in a warmer climate then your blood cells change shape to deal with the heat (mor streamlined I guess to travel faster through your system and improve cooling) but if you then move to a colder climate it takes them a lot longer to mutate back to the shape we need.

Every day is a learning day!

TRVs on every rad but one (hall/bathroom) and learn how to use them. They are not an on/off switch.

The boiler will ramp down when less rads are on using less gas and switch off when water returning is too hot.

Programmable roomstat (wireless for simpler wiring)

Run this with lower set back temperatures (10-14degC) to ensure the house is maintened at a sensible temperature then requires less energy to get back up to temperature. Doesn't use a lot less fuel but is better for the house. Churches are often ran like this when new systems are installed otherwise they can take 2 days to heat up again.

On top of that you could get an optimum start programmer which learns how soon it needs to bring the heating on rather than you guessing using less energy unless you set it to a temp it can't achieve.

Wear more clothes.

Learn to accept a lower temp.
Our thermostat get's to about 19degC max in winter (warmer in some rooms) but that's off a stove into the heating and an electric boiler for morning convenience or when we aren't in and don't want the house to freeze.

If it's a nice old house don't do drastic things to the structure IMO.
Roof insulation.
High quality carpet underlay.
Secondary glazing or a film if it works.

Being a bit more drastic you could line the walls internally and reskim if your decorating.

This does use more fuel that letting the house go cold:

"Run this with lower set back temperatures (10-14degC) to ensure the house is maintened at a sensible temperature then requires less energy to get back up to temperature. Doesn't use a lot less fuel but is better for the house"

Elfinsafety - Member
Yeah but your ignoring individual physiology, Crikey. Makes me laugh when people bang on about 'putting extra clothes on' rather than being comfortable in yer own home.

Went round a neighbour's earlier; he's got his balcony door wide open. I din't even take me coat off. He thinks it's funny that I think it's a bit cold; it's some silly macho crap he's got going. Truth is, he's got high blood pressure, and drinks from about noon. so he simply does not in any way feel the cold like I do. come the summer, if it gets about 75ºF, he's 'too hot'. So he's a moany bastard from about May to October. I, on the other hand, am fine in warmer temperatures.

In my experience, those who originate from warmer climes tend to suffer the cold more than those who originate from the UK or Northern Yerp. It's all about physiology; an Ethiopian can run about in the hot sun, whereas a White Scottish person would keel over as their bodies can't physically cope with the heat in the same way. Horses for courses. Not to mention sunburn...

I have my flat at 20ºC during the day. Just right and comfortable if I'm wearing a jumper. Don't care what others think; if you want to live in a fridge, wearing all your clothes, you are free to do so in the comfort of your own home. Just don't expect me to come and visit bringing a nice bottle of wine or some snacks.

Interesting to hear someone who frequently talks about social cohesion, the plight of the under dog e.t.c take the view point of as long as I'm ok screw the effect on others. I say this as the attitude you have presented, intentionally or not is one where by the use and moderation of energy within your home is not a subject over which you feel you should take any responsibility.

Edukator - Member
Windows are generally quoted for UW, the thermal resistance of the whole window. Secondary glazing will give you UW = 2. To get the R of the window R = 1/UW so for secondary glazing R = 0.5. Similar to an 1890s wall.

Approximate UWs for different types of glazing.

Single glazed = 5.7

Double glazed = 2

Double glazed 4/16/4 = 1.4

Best triple glazed or double with thermal memebrane 0.7

A recent double glazed window in an 1890s house will lose less heat than the wal around it.

So go ahead, CaptJon, you'll beter than halve the heat loss from the window.

Cheers for the info. Sounds like i'll notice the difference.

...and our physiology is all the same. I suspect you are mixing it up with culture, sociology and some other ologys.

Physiology hasn't suddenly changed, our lifestyles have, and no one 'needs' the heating on all the time or we wouldn't have survived as a species.

put a jumper on.

Also, having the heating on all the time makes you fatter.

Probably explains why everyone in the uk seems to be fat these days.

The heating on all the time guy - assuming like you say the 13 minutes per hour that the burner is firing on full, and a 25kw input combi boiler (pretty small one), and gas at 6p / kwh (roughly the average price paid), that'd be 35p an hour, 8.40 quid a day, 58.80 a week, and assuming very conservatively that you have the heating on for 10 weeks total, best part of 600 quid.

Wireless thermostat costs from about 30 quid, is a ten minute job to fit and keeps the house efficiently at the temperatures you want, where you want. We fitted one because the baby's room needed a minimum temp at night or else she woke up (set to 16 in her room at night, and rarely turns on except in mid winter). Didn't buy an electric heater for her room as I worked out that the cost of heating one room with electric was going to be roughly the same as the whole house with gas) . To money saved is massive - pre thermostat, we got a bill for 100 quid more than normal, after thermostat, even including last years snow, bills roughly similar to pre kid.

Edukator - Member

This does use more fuel that letting the house go cold:

"Run this with lower set back temperatures (10-14degC) to ensure the house is maintened at a sensible temperature then requires less energy to get back up to temperature. Doesn't use a lot less fuel but is better for the house"

No it won't.
Not in the way they are using the heating already as long as they don't try and overheat. You'll probably find the house rarely drops below 14degC anyway but when it get's properly cold it's far better for the house to remain at a background temperature than let it drop to whatever.

Old old house likely means thick walls. Let these go cold and they'll suck the heat out of the property before the thermal mass is reheated. Keep it warmish and you can ramp the temperature back up to occupation temperature easily. This of course assumes that the heating system is sized correctly for the property and can heat it to the required temperature.

You know it's not physiology!

It is. A 'typical' Ethiopian carries a lot less body fat than a Northern Yerpean. Because they don't need to, they don't need the insulation as much.

An Ethiopian:

[img] [/img]

A North Yerpean:

[img] [/img]

Notice any differences?

Right. Thank you.

Interesting to hear someone who frequently talks about social cohesion, the plight of the under dog e.t.c take the view point of as long as I'm ok screw the effect on others.

Bollocks. I heat my home to a level where I feel comfortable. I accept this is warmer than the level others heat their houses to, but does not in any way make me a selfish planet raper. I don't drive, so unless you don't either, don't try that one with me, eh? 😉

And as I've said, it's easy to heat my flat cos it's probbly better insulated than some damp cottage in Scotland. And a hell of a lot cheaper too. So, I probbly use a lot less energy than others do heating their homes to a lower temp.

Oh, and my clothes are smaller, thus saving on resources too. 😀

put a jumper on.

I've got a flipping jumper on! 😡

I want to be comfortable in my home and i want my children to be comfortable too not just in their rooms. if it gets to cold they get up. the rads all go off at about 19c and if we want to be warmer your wear more. sometimes Im happy in shorts and tee, others Im looking for as many layers as i can find. depends on how Im feeling. Just want to try and find best way to maintain a temp without going nuts.

Heat loss is proportional to the temperature of the house above ambient, Tomlevell. The warmer the house the higher the heat loss. The energy saved while the house is colder will always be greater than the energy used to heat it up again.

At temperatures below 10°C heat from the ground plays a role. A well insulated house won't freeze even when the temperature drops well below zeo because heat from the ground keeps it above zero - one of the negatives of under-floor insulation in a house that is often inoccupied.

I live in an 1890's end terrace with solid walls. Recently had double glazing and doors fitted plus a new 30kw combi boiler. I have a programmable thermostat set to 18'C and TRV's fitted. It comes on for an hour in the morning and from 4:30-8:30 each evening and that's easily enough for me. My combined fuel bill has just gone up to £74 per month from £58 but I was already £70 in credit and don't expext to run a deficit over winter. Attic is converted but not heated so no idea of how well insulated it is. Main heat loss is the gable end I think, certainly get some condensation in a couple of points.

Well, i've fitted secondary film glazing to the three (big) windows which cause the greatest heat loss (two can be could only be covered by a thin blind), and put some reflective stuff behind the radiators and on the back door (wooden and drafty)

Result - i just turned my heating off.

Caveat - my downstairs neighbours have been in all day with their heating on, i've been using a hairdryer on max to get the film tight, and moving about a lot.

The heating on all the time guy - assuming like you say the 13 minutes per hour that the burner is firing on full, and a 25kw input combi boiler (pretty small one), and gas at 6p / kwh (roughly the average price paid), that'd be 35p an hour, 8.40 quid a day, 58.80 a week, and assuming very conservatively that you have the heating on for 10 weeks total, best part of 600 quid.

Well, we ran it that way through the snowy period last year - total bill £69 per month. Its been warm since April or so though.....

I decided you lot were right (!) and went back to timed - the result is the boiler has lost all pressure & therefore is "dead"* and I'm sitting here heating the house with the Living Flame gas fire and an electric fire upstairs 🙁

*befoere you ask yes I've checked everthing I can and tried to top up the water pressure to no avail.....

True to form, our Potterton boiler has suffered its annual breakdown.

Quick question if i may regarding insulation under the floor.

I have a cellar under my front room. It has 2 coal holes and a couple of air bricks. There is a radiator in there too.

Should i insulate my floor? Will me insulating it keep the room warmer above or does the radiator do a good enough job of heating the space? I can easily put up some insulation board as there is no ceiling in the cellar, just the joists.

Thanks in advance.

Depends on the temperature difference between the two areas. (The U value or loss is dependent on the temperature difference).

I reckon that if you insulate under the floor to R = 3 you will be warmer with the cellar radiator off. I'm guessing the cellar is colder than your front room even with the cellar radiator on, right? If so then you are losing heat from your front room to the cellar and insulating the floor to R = 3 will pretty much eliminate that heat loss.