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As in one that doesn't have (that many) problems with DMF, DPF, injectors etc. What gets your vote, as I'm hearing lots of negatives with regard to Ford and VAG engines? 😐
VAG as the DPF is a thing of the past.
Pre 1997 to have no EGR no particle filter no duel mass flywheel!!!
And low pressure diesel injection. Old Peugeot/citroen 1.9 turbo diesel 92 bhp
Great engine BUT COMPARED to today's engines it's poor fuel eco , noisy , and will feel slow and a bit smoky.
Looking at new(ish)......
VAG PD130
If I'm right vag now use add blue and also have a dpf but under a different name.
The same as 2014 Peugeot/ citroens have
Pre filter
Particle filter
Add blue filter
All required by all European cars to pass euro 6 emission regs
Add blue uses 10 litres every 12 months that is basically urea (piss)
Pd is good but old and noisy compared to common rail systems that every uses now. Vag were late to the party on that one. Very reliable though.
BMW M47TUD20 with the swirl flaps removed. Great engines once that particular flaw is addressed
As ChrisDiesel has mentioned, I'm pretty sure all the VAG diesels will have DPFs. There is simply no way of passing current legislation without one.
An engine with SCR (Urea, AdBlue, etc) will lower the amount of DPF filling as the soot SHOULD be less, but it will still need one.
The Ford/PSA engines are actually very good - you hear a lot of bad things as there are just so many of them. I know plenty of people who have had them with absolutely no issues however - just the case of you only hear the bad stuff and not when they work well!
If you look you'll find problems with all modern diesels regardless of manufacturer. Lots of the problems cross manufacturers such injectors, flywheels, EGR and DPF's. Lots of problems caused by low miles that would be better suited to petrol engine.
Take your pick and chances but unless your doing in excess of 13k miles a year then I would just go for a petrol with less expensive problems to fix.
mrs t-r is pushing for a more modern car recently - im fairly sure we will be buying a petrol if we do -
i have a 1.9 Dw8 engine - which will likely run till cockroaches come.
i also have a 2.2DTI isuzu engine - which will run similarly unless the fuel pump goes tits up (usuaully by misfueling)
ive replaced most of the consumables - suspension,exhaust , batteries , wheel bearings etc etc .... yet she is keen for a newer car - she thinks im being overdramatic saying that modern cars actually have more to go wrong and that our old clunkers are actually the more reliable in a "will pretty much always start and run" kind of way.
but do know i probably wont be buying a diesel which is a shame because i like the way diesels drive.
I know plenty of people who have had them with absolutely no issues however
Yup, 5 years 50k miles on a PSA/Ford 2L - zero complaints here.
And no DPF. Phew!
Bit low mileage to warrant the extra cost of a diesel, if I'm honest, but for a good long while most of its miles were motorway.
she thinks im being overdramatic saying that modern cars actually have more to go wrong
Depends - some of the 'town car' type smaller petrols aren't that complex.
Sounds like you already have several bigger motors (isuzu 4x4?, berlingo?) already?
see a c1 for 99 quid a month (or similar) piqued my interest as ideal car for her to drive to work and back
reality is - she drives 2 days a week(in winter)when she takes the mtb to go mtbing or the road bike+turbo to go to group turbo session. and almost never in summer - meaning a small towncar is pointless.
i drive on average 2 days a week normally when im in the uk..... usually on days when i have meetings across town etc.
what we use the motors for mostly is going riding/racing or taking crap to the tip - either by van or trailer - pending size and weight (house renovation)/picking up shopping
L-series.
The 2L engine in my BMW 1-series has been faultless - 4 years and 102k so far...
Just taken my 59 plate BMW 320D SE through 130,000 miles. Never skipped a beat. Quick and frugal.
Pre 1997 to have no EGR no particle filter no duel mass flywheel!!!
EGR came in before 1997 at least on VAG. My 94 had one.
Ford/PSA engines seem to treat the DPF as a service item, 70k miles. I don't think this is the case for VAG. I don't think these things are liabilities provided you know they are there and understand how to look after them.
If you're buying nearly new, you don't need to worry as much.
My experience has been that if problems occur, its really after 6 ish years old, and depend on how the cars been used.
Just make sure whatever you get has been around long enough so that you be sure there isn't a big expensive design flaw somewhere.
My experience has been that if problems occur, its really after 6 ish years old, and depend on how the cars been used.
Personal experience then as plenty of other owners have had nothing but problems including my bother with his Octavia's and DPF problems even with regular long commutes.
I have Mk3 Mondeo 2.2 tdci and never missed a beat but I know others that had problems with them from new. I think a lot is down to use and driving style with the main culprit short commuting journeys that diesel weren't really designed for but as above with my brother not a hard and fast rule.
There are quite a few things that can cause diesels to smoke. In the old days you'd see the smoke and take it to a garage, but now the DPF will just get overwhelmed. So the garage says 'oh DPF is blocked' and replace it, and it gets blocked again.
How do you know if your diesel is smoking if it's got a DPF?
Personal experience then I've not had a single problem with any of Golf I owned or the A3.
I see the confusion with my first post I missed out the word problems. Stupid dyslexia.
Never had problems with Ford 2.0 130bhp in 80k miles. or VAG 2.0 140bhp 50k
About to get BMW 2.0 I bet thats the same...
Put 100k on a VW PD engine and just passed adding 112k onto a Ford Duratorq with no engine or transmission issues, and both had mileage on them before me - 50K & 60k respectively.
[i]Old Peugeot/citroen 1.9 turbo diesel 92 bhp
[/i]
I put 160k in 4 years on a Xantia, but I don't want to drive around in an 18 y/o car...
And why not petrol, as my old 405Mi16 1.9 16v got past 200k (on the same clutch too) - only oil, filters and belts.
Honda?
I put 160k on a passat 130 s. No problems but a bit uncouth and smoked when you gave it the beans and cam belt services came around quite quick.
Then had Honda albeit that's 2.2. Lovely smooth revvy for a diesel. Chain driven so no expensive services. 100k but a few niggles with electronics so sold on.
Now on bmw 2.0 d which goes like stink but isn't as refined an engine as the honda.
We've had various diesels company cars & the two Hondas both clocked up 90k with only a clutch & brakes fitted between them.
The Peugeot & Fords on the otherhand - dropped valve, snapped cam, numerous EGR & dual mass flywheel issues etc.
They don't make many, but Honda have to be up with the best.
I also think the Ford 2.2 Puma is/was a good engine. Had one in a Mondeo, another in a Transit. Pre-DPF and EGR wasn't a huge issue.
i might be wrong these days but the honda diesel was an isuzu.
id crawl over hot coals for an isuzu diesel engine - except the 3.1TD
isuzus are the bollocks.
the pumas good in light cars - in landrovers and transits its a bollocks - likes its own injection pump also based on the pumas we have had in the family - lucky you can hear the IP leaving the building and trade it in sharpish
Owned a mk4 mondeo 2.0 (140hp) for that last 3 years, cars done 106000 (50k by myself) with no problems whatsoever, it's still on it's original clutch.
I do most of my driving on the motorway though, so can't really say if it'd have dpf problems with a lot of short journeys as most modern diesels do. I've only ever noticed it doing a regen twice.
The mk4 motor is a whole lot more reliable than the older ford diesels.
Is this not a case of:
New
Reliable
2L
Pick two?
Most bombproof 2L diseasal I had was the L-series in my N-reg 420 Rover, and that had a tuning box wired in. 43MPG min when ragged over the moors.
Most fun was not 2L - it was a 5-pot 2.4 jtd in an Alfa 156.
The 2.2 in the Civic is OK but not as nice sounding.
This Merc 2.2 in my vito is sweet.
TOO SWEET!
Mashed one gearbox, electronic problems.
Bits fall off the thing like an old leper...
But the engine is sweet!
What the OP wants is a 320D/520D but without the BMW badge. It needs to be realiable, see him into retirement and tow his caravan plus get him from North England to the Bonty 24/12
Personally I'd forget the snobbery and just get one. I get if he test drove one he'd find it hard to go back. He could do worse than a newer estate version of his mondo which is where i feel he'll end up.
Loved the BMW 2L diesel engine, shame I hated the rest of the car.
Stoatsbrother - MemberLoved the BMW 2L diesel engine, shame I hated the rest of the car.
Exactly what a work mate said, he's back in an Audi now?
As far as I know, the old 1.7 Honda was made by Isuzu, and was regarded as terrible with such bad turbo spool delay it was hard to pull away without stalling.
I think the newer 2.2 is made in house. Can't comment on reliability but I test drove a Civic with it and it was quiet, revvy and an absolute blast to drive.
it appears your right regarding the 2.2
the 1.7 was still a bomb proof engine - id be interested to know how turbo spool delay makes an engine hard to pull away with..... none of my mates with 1.7 breadvans have ever mentioned this.
The Honda 2.2 is pretty reliable but no more than other diesels and the have DPF issues. The Merc 2.2 in the last gen e-class and c-class has plenty of people run them to the 300-500k miles. Pity the rest of the car rusted away first 🙁
id be interested to know how turbo spool delay makes an engine hard to pull away with
Well, small amount of revs, let clutch out, no turbo means very little torque and the engine stalls. According to some forum or other debating the relative merits of old vs new Civic a while ago. I have never driven an old one but I have driven a Citroen that had the same problem. You got used to it of course like you do with your car's foibles but it was annoying all the same.
i like my clutch and have sympathy for it - generally i never take off from a standing start at 3k RPM - i am not the stig.
You don't? Neither do I. Do you have a point?
where does your turbo kick in - mines 2.5k - hence why i struggle to see why turbo lag would have any bearing on take off stalling - poor clutch control is not the engines fault.
all my diesels ive ever had will take off with zero throttle if asked - they generally only need 1500 to pull away nice and briskly
I might be missing the point but what has the Isuzu engine got to do with the turbo lag. Surely Honda specified the turbo to be fitted so the problem lays with them and not the engine it's bolted to. Much the same as the Mini Cooper S turbo problems was a BMW issue and not with PSA Peugeot Citroen who made the engine.
The Honda 2.2 is pretty reliable but no more than other diesels and the have DPF issues.
Honda 2.2 doesnt have DPF (06-11?)
The 2.0 Perkins oil burner that was in my old Montego estate.
Somebody liked it enough to nick the car for its engine to be transplanted into a taxi. (The car itself was never seen again)
Loving these ' high milage ' deisel engines.
As mentioned the XUD Pug / Citroen was a reliable if not noisy engine that would do mega miles . Last inserted in the Xsara C1999.
Then the VAG PD , which uses an inhead lobe pump to generate common rail type pressures . Drove my first one from 236 - 312k . It used 1ltr of oil every 12,000 miles then rather than top it up i just changed it. Used no water at all .
Second one bought on 186K and again minimal oil consumption and zero water use.
Reliable , economical , no DPF , Yes there is a DMF but pretty much everything post 2001 has a DMF. EGR could give problems but a blanking kit and ecu re - write is an option .
Honda 2.2 supposed to ok but a trawl acroos Ebay usually throws up 1 or 2 for sale with a blown engine .
That BMW lump is also good once the swirl flaps and either been sorted or removed , available in the Over 75 or MGZT-T , although transverse in this install.
Ive heard the older transit 04 engines are bullet proof and the vag grouo pd lumps seem to be flavour with the lads round here. A lot of mk1 golfs and mk2 golfs or the old caddys running the pd lump.
Personally like the BMW engines, and love the cars. The VAG ones are ok, if you don't mind doing cambelts regularly.
Regular servicing with quality oil, and driven plenty so everything gets warm and blown out, and most seem reliable.
The Fiat 1.9 mjet's used to be good. Had a 120bhp Stilo with one, and was really good. Easily saw 53mpg. Got it mapped to around 160bhp as well. Think they were the same engines as used in various vauxhalls and saabs.
Currently driving around in a 320d, but have had two 118d's prior to this. Dabbled in a 116i petrol, but just preffered the diesels. Very happy with my choice.
where does your turbo kick in - mines 2.5k -
What engine? I am sceptical of that to be honest. Every turbo diesel I've ever driven it starts to work from about 1200rpm.
Surely Honda specified the turbo to be fitted so the problem lays with them and not the engine it's bolted to.
I'm not blaming anyone, all I'm saying is that particular engine was an Isuzu unit and I'd read a lot of people complaining about it being very easy to stall, more so than most diesels, and that it needed more revs. This is most likely down to the fuel map and hence Honda's fault, for whatever that's worth.
Liking my 150bhp BMW diesel, with swirl flaps removed.
Faultless after 117,000 miles, no DPF issues at all.
Mondeo TDCi was good too up to 150,000 when I flogged it. Still on its original clutch 😯
2003 mondeo here, 115hp.
157,000 miles, engine perfect, still drives just as good as it did when new.
only had regular wear and tear items and irregular sevicing done.
The Honda 2.2 is pretty reliable but no more than other diesels and the have DPF issues.
Honda 2.2 doesnt have DPF (06-11?)
All the iCDTI (about 03-08) Honda's don't have DPF. I should maybe have been more specific 08 onwards 2.2 have DPF (that cause no end of trouble). That's why after two iCDTI we have a petrol Accord now.
Onto my second BMW 320d, first did 90k despite getting thrashed from new - no problems.
Current one just gone 30k miles in six months - again thrashed from new. No issues.
If fact I've never bought oil for either of BMW engines - outside of the service.
I've had an early 170bhp VAG and the current 143bhp - both seemed to drink oil.
BMW all the way for me.
I'm driving a Mazda 6 (2010) with a 2.2 diesel. High gearing and low compression ratio (15:1 I think) mean that you need to rev it to get moving; I preferred my old PD 130 on the Passat in that respect, but then the Mazda feels so planted on corners compared to the VW. I've never yet had the DPF light come on, which is the issue with this car.
52' 130hp TDCi Mondeo here, with 167k on the clock.
Drives lovely.
But, its spent most if its life enjoying fast(ish) runs of at least 8 miles as the Wifes work-bus. I fear rattling it around town would be a recipe for trouble.
Our next "family" car (to replace a TDi Galaxy) will be a petrol engined Focus estate or similar. Much better suited to the local mileage it sees, backwards & forwards between School/Scout Hut/Shops etc. (School usually only on Scout days, when bikes are just too much hassle). We only bought the Galaxy as a caravan tow-car, & the caravan is being sold come spring when prices pick-up.
Back to tenting till Wife is earning again (currently trainee nurse), so roofbox & trailer will suffice. 🙂
My 2.2 Honda is just coming up to 100k. The entire car has been faultless but I particularly like my engine over my wifes' A3 2.0 diesel because of the 5 trillion newtons of torque it has. Having five people in it seemingly makes no difference at all to performance.
L-series in my N-reg 420 Rover
I had a chipped L series in a W reg 45 - pulled like a train & nudged 60 mpg.
The 2.0 Perkins oil burner that was in my old Montego estate.
First direct injection engine I ever drove, good cold starter in minus 10 conditions unlike my workmates PSA engines.
Used no water at all
In 25+ years of owning, I've never had a diesel that used any water.
In the finest tradition, I'll recommend what I have, the 2.2 mk3 mondeo engine. Cheap to buy, chain drive, relatively few diesel foibles... Some injector issues, not as bad as people make out, clutch and dmf are original at 120000 miles. Standard map was wooly from idle, remap made it a much sharper and nicer drive. And fuel economy is pretty much the same as the 2.0, tax a little higher, insurance bizarrely the same. Throw a decat at it and it's 180-ish bhp and about 300lb/ft. Then sit it in a normal looking mondeo.
takisawa2 - MemberBut, its spent most if its life enjoying fast(ish) runs of at least 8 miles as the Wifes work-bus. I fear rattling it around town would be a recipe for trouble.
It'd probably be fine- no DPF on that model, and easily bypassed EGR. Sometimes being stoneaged is good!
Saab 1.9 TTiD. 180bhp/300 torques.
Put 130k on one & 80k on another & never missed a beat.
My second favourite 2l diesel would be BMW. My first would be the Alpina modified BMW 2l that they use in the Alpina D3.
Wife has just swapped from a VW with a 2L 140 bhp to a BMW with 2L engine. We test drove a BMW with same power output as the VW, and it felt a *lot* more powerful (to the extent I thought they had given us the wrong car) . She bought a car with the 218bhp version which is really quiet, economical and smooth. Based on this fairly unscientific test, I'd say BMW are a long way past VW when it comes to engines.
Saccades - Member
L-series.
This.
My Rover 45 goes like stink,50mpg easy and bulletproof.
Based on this fairly unscientific test, I'd say BMW are a long way past VW when it comes to engines.
Not really, all engines are basically the same tech nowadays. Lots of air in, squirt fuel in, bang. More powerful diesels just have bigger turbos and more expensive parts.
The fuel map may be different though. Bluemotion and similar don't dump as much fuel in at low revs so the turbo takes longer to spin up, but you turn less fuel into smoke.
Not really, all engines are basically the same tech nowadays. Lots of air in, squirt fuel in, bang. More powerful diesels just have bigger turbos and more expensive parts.The fuel map may be different though. Bluemotion and similar don't dump as much fuel in at low revs so the turbo takes longer to spin up, but you turn less fuel into smoke.
Really? Ignoring the actual big chunky bits of the engine, and whether there's swirl in the chamber etc that's still way off. Take the VW lump in the polo blue motion, Fabia greenline etc etc, the common rail system is totally different to that from a "normal" engine. The CR pump is driven off the engine, on the blue motion it's at engine speed rather than stepped down, there's a single plunger and follower rather than multiple, so a different hydraulic head design is needed since it's optimised to a different flow. The materials and heat treatment of the pump internals are totally different to other pump designs etc. The injectors can be solenoid driven, indirectly piezo driven or directly actuated by a piezo stack, each allows different numbers of pilot and main injections per cycle which completely changes the fuel distribution in the cylinder and therefore the combustion timing, performance and efficiency. There's a separate pump to draw fuel from the tank to the actual cr system, that might be electrical and sat in the tank or it might be mechanically slaved to the cr pump itself. Cr systems on the market might run at anything from 1400 bar for an older system to 2000 for a newer one, each using different components around the system. Bosch, Delphi, conti-Siemens and denso all have fairly similar systems but equally they all have their own tech too, and that's just the bit to squirt the fuel, but sure, all the tech is the same.
I said basically, not exactly 🙂
Injectors and pumps vary, aye, but they still do basically the same thing. I reckon diesels are more similar to each other than petrols on the market today.
Although I accept that different injection stages make a bigger difference 🙂
I've had a few Diesel engines over the years, and my experience has been different - the only one that was crap was the Isuzu in a vauxhall Astra. It seized itself solid at about 60,000 miles.
I've stuck to German diesels since.
I really liked the enduro 1.8 tddi in my old focus. OK, it couldn't pull the cock off a chocolate mouse but it was a total masterpiece of usability- made the same feeble amount of power almost all the time, pulled better from idle than my 2.2 (which makes about 250% of the power). So in some ways it was a terrible bilge pump but it was still kind of [i]charming.[/i]
If your budget can stretch it, a 3.0 diesel (Audi & BMW) could be an option. Phenomonal amount of torque and super smooth engine make for effortless pulling power and reasonable mpg.
I used to own a VAG 2.0 170bhp (2009 Passat)which was a great engine but when new car time came round i test drove a 3.0 A4 and very impressed.
Maybe not practical for you but always an option.