[Closed] Beloved relatives posting pish about homopathy on FB.

You stating your own subjective view is not a fact watch

No it did not FACT

We do not rely on what people say to decide if medicine works as introspection is such a poor guide to efficacy.

I am not saying whether you are right or wrong in this case,I have no idea, but your anecdote is not a FACT anymore than mine is.

All I'm saying is when I felt like shit both holistic and scientific medicine did the same to my body ie next to nothing apart from a small respite. SUBJECTIVE VIEW 😆

I think that the concern is that people try and treat serious illnesses with homeopathy and other woo, potentially leading to more serious outcomes, particularly with conditions where time is critical.

But surely by going to a doctor they would immediately know which treatment to put you on.
I would never condone self healing unless it was a sniffle or paper cut.

I took the sugar pills, I stopped coughing. Fact.
...
Just worked for 1 week.

The other day I was in a car accident. Fact! I was wearing a work polo shirt. Fact! Conclusion, wearing polo shirts causes car accidents.

You cannot infer that conclusion from those two statements. Just because there's a correlation does not mean that there is a causal link. (Well, you can, but it's a logical fallacy.)

I had been coughing for 2 weeks so bad I was on occasion vomiting prior to the sugar pills, hence the visit to the doctor. This stopped for 1 week.
It could have been a coincidence.
I had to take Antibiotics then to stop coughing.
I still have whooping cough now.

The other day I was in a car accident. Fact! I was wearing a work polo shirt. Fact! Conclusion, wearing polo shirts causes car accidents.

I took the sugar pills, I stopped coughing. Fact. I couldn't care less about proving it. Fact.
Just worked for 1 week. Fact. Antibiotics only worked for 1 week. Fact. I still have whooping cough now .Fact.

Your wife's friend is a shit Doctor. FACT.

Once you have had whooping cough for a couple of weeks, the bacteria has done its job and antibiotics won't do much to stop the symptoms, it will just need to run its course and will be on and off in bouts for a few weeks regardless of what pills you take.

HOWEVER, She prescribed you sugar pills which meant that you were still infectious to other people.

If she had prescribed you antibiotics then you wouldn't have been.

She's an idiot.

I once eat a mint with a hole in it whilst wearing a polo shirt.

I didn't cough and I wasn't sick.

One little comment, on a Facebook page none of us has seen, by a person we haven't met, reinterpreted by a stranger on the internet is having a measurable effect on this forum... Makes you think...

Once you have had whooping cough for a couple of weeks, the bacteria has done its job and antibiotics won't do much to stop the symptoms, it will just need to run its course and will be on and off in bouts for a few weeks regardless of what pills you take.

Are antibiotics given to a bad cough as standard?
Once test results confirmed whooping cough antibiotics were given immediately.
Please tell me what's shit about that.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19904-placebos-can-work-even-when-you-know-theyre-fakes.html#.UtPY_9qYa1s

Go on to her facebook profile, click where it says 'friend', then click 'show in news feed'.

Job done, you don't have to remove her as a friend, or read any mumbo jumbo BS.

Are antibiotics given to a bad cough as standard?
Once test results confirmed whooping cough antibiotics were given immediately.
[b]Please tell me what's shit about that[/b].

She mis diagnosed a patient who had an easy to identify illness.

She then gave them sugar pills to make them go away.

Then sent an infectious patient out to make other people ill.

Hardly winning Doctor of the Year is she ?

What I find most worrying in this thread is that the second trap in that toilet diagram above is useless.

Point Y should be below water level, surely?

If I went to my GP and she recommended homeopathy to me, I'd make every effort to have her struck off before she got the chance to recommend it as treatment to a cancer patient.

@ It's different on the continent. This woman is highly regarded the medical community. As I previously said all doctors must study fairy dust sugar pills to quailfy.
@nealglover Please give me the symptoms of early whooping cough ie first stage which was the time I visited her

@nealglover Please give me the symptoms of early whooping cough ie first stage

Why first stage ?

If you were coughing for two weeks before you went to the doctor, as you said you were.

And you were coughing to the point of vomiting, then you were in second stage.

As I said, easily diagnosed.

I was wondering that too woz.

C

Because taking imaginary medicine sometimes discourages people from taking real medicine.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11/22/calgary-mother-who-relied-on-herbal-medicines-facing-charges-after-son-7-dies-of-treatable-bacterial-infection/

Last week there was a headline in my local paper about a bogus faith healer ripping thousands of pounds off his clients. Yeah it's always those 'bogus' ones giving the genuine ones a bad name...

This surgeon/doctor must really be shit as she is doing really good work especially with trauma victims.
She specialises in facial reconstruction and is such a nice person. She also does voluntary medical with the homeless of Vienna.She must really hate people if she hans out sugar pills.
Let's have your CV nealglover seeing as you have the experience to call her shit several times on this thread.

This surgeon/doctor must really be shit as she is doing really good work especially with trauma victims.
She specialises in facial reconstruction and is such a nice person. She also does voluntary medical with the homeless of Vienna.She must really hate people if she hans out sugar pills.

She should stick to what she is good at then.

Because if she can't spot second stage whooping cough that's making someone vomit, being a GP is clearly not her strong suit.

You can tell me she cured cancer and made someone's legs grow back, but it doesn't change the fact that she misdiagnosed an easily spotted illness and sent an infectious patient out of the door with a bag of smarties 🙄

Let's have your CV nealglover

What has that got to do with anything ?

Did she mis diagnose you ? YES
Did she prescribe the wrong thing ? YES
Did she send an infectious patient away without treating them ? YES

My CV is irrelevant.

Nice try at distraction though 🙄

Neal you have a wonderful way with dismissive posts
LIKES

It could have been a coincidence.

Point Y should be below water level, surely

Nealglover
Medically qualified?
Doctor?
Nurse?
Porter?
Cleaner?
Plant waterer?
However whatever it is you are now looking foolish.
Run along now and find a job from one of the above.

Nealglover
Medically qualified? [b]No[/b]
Doctor? [b]No[/b]
Nurse? [b]No[/b]
Porter? [b]No[/b]
Cleaner? [b]No[/b]
Plant waterer? [b]No[/b]
However whatever it is you are now looking foolish.
Run along now and find a job from one of the above.

why is that ?

Please explain how her diagnosis and prescription were correct ?

A doctor gave you sugar pills when you had an infectious disease I am not sure you need to be massively medically qualified to suggest this is not best practice or a wise course of action.
Its pointless to attack neal for this what you need to do is explain how what they did was a great piece of medicine/diagnosis/appropriate treatment - neal has explained why it was not
I would suggest you are attacking him as its easier than defending the doctor

I am not an engineer but I would advise against the use of spaghetti as a material for bridge building.

Is that ok or not?

My spaghetti bridge is perfectly safe! Just don't go on it in the rain 😉

Not attacking. Mereltn defending someone he calls shit. Someone who has the correct training and experience. That is all.

... Someone who has the correct training and experience. That is all.

Can you honestly say they used that training and experience to give a correct diagnosis and prescribe a relevant treatment in your case ?

Because from how you described it yourself, she failed to diagnose you, and fobbed you off with sugar pills to get you out of the door.

And two weeks in, coughing till you puke, with her experience, that's a diagnosis she would need to be blind to miss. Or just not bothered.

Having good training and experience doesn't make you good, incidentally. I can't comment on the case in question.

First week Civil Engineering degree group task - build a bridge out of spaghetti.

I was going to say that.
To hold 2 bags of sugar (or was it 3 I can't remember )

Ok this doctor is shit. All call crash victims look like the hills have eyes, Vienna homeless are al dying and nealglover is the nhs.

Ps Neal you really need a job mate

First week Civil Engineering degree group task - build a bridge out of spaghetti.

I am sure they could make one out of paper but there are probably some insurmountable flaws in the material choice which one does not have to be an engineer or a doctor to see.

DO they really make them do spaghetti bridges?

Neal you really need a job mate

Not once have you tried to defend the diagnosis.
Shameful behaviour ...we are all wrong sometimes and there is no shame in that. However it takes a special person to know they are wrong and debate on by simply insulting the other person.
😉

Don't gnocchit till you've tried it.

Ok this doctor is shit. All call crash victims look like the hills have eyes, Vienna homeless are al dying and nealglover is the nhs.

You have failed to defend her mis diagnosis of you whooping cough, and her prescription of smarties for an infectious illness.

I'll take that to mean you also agree she was totally wrong.

Ps Neal you really need a job mate

I worked from 2AM till 9AM today

I'll be working again later from 3PM till 8PM.

How is this relevant to your need for a new GP exactly ?

The Italian army used to teach hand to hand combat using pasta.

Their motto?

"The penne is mightier than the sword"

RE Whooping cough and:

Are antibiotics given to a bad cough as standard?
Once test results confirmed whooping cough antibiotics were given immediately.

Infectivity of whooping cough: one week after exposure until 3 weeks after onset of symptoms (but only 7 days if antibiotics given).

Treatment is only really 'useful' if given within 3 weeks of onset... SO, not making specific judgements on clinical cases here or elsewhere, if you don't treat within the first few weeks (for whatever reason) then antibiotics aren't really indicated i.e. you've missed the boat...

DrP

@ Nealglove I really was not tring to insult and if you take it the wrong way I apologise. The job comment was out of order but I for some strange reason (maybe from another thread) thought you were a sudent.
It is just the constant belittlement of every single this this woman did when she was helping me.
She also helps me a lot with my bipolar as she is a fantastic therapist. It's a therapy called brainspotting which helps heal old wounds but after doing it it puts you in a manic phase for a few days so I'm probably a bit.

DrP, Iolo will be asking for your CV in a moment.

I hope it's up to date 😉

@ Nealglove I really was not tring to insult and if [b]you take it the wrong way[/b] I apologise.

You were trying to insult me really, but I accept your apology either way.

I'm fairly thick skinned.

The job comment was out of order but I for some strange reason (maybe from another thread) [b]thought you were a student[/b].

That's offensive though 🙂

It is just the constant belittlement of [b]every single this this woman did when she was helping me.[/b]

That's the issue though isn't it.

She wasn't helping you at all.

I'm with nealglover on this - whilst you may believe and trust in this Dr [i]on this occasion[/i] it appears she didn't offer the appropriate treatment.

Ok.
Stw massive 1 - nice woman Viennese doctor 0

She also helps me a lot with my bipolar as she is a fantastic therapist. It's a therapy called brainspotting which helps heal old wounds but after doing it it puts you in a manic phase for a few days so I'm probably a bit.

This sounds weird - are doctors in Austria also mental health therapists (and homeopathists)? Seems a strange mixing of roles

She's a surgeon friend of my oh who helps out the homeless and knows a few ways to help people. This includes brain spotting which she does a lot with the homeless. She also patches them up and gives pills as required.
She only gets paid as a surgeon.
What's weird?

iolo - Member
Ok.
Stw massive 1 - nice woman Viennese doctor 0

Never back down, don't show weakness, the pack will eat you.

Ok.
Stw massive 1 - nice woman Viennese doctor 0

You can put it like that if you like.

Her diagnosis was crap, being a "nice woman" doesn't change that.

And trying to make it sound like bullying that her mistake was pointed out is pretty weak really 🙄

If she's a surgeon that would explain why she's giving well-meaning but medically poor advice with regards to whooping cough. Next time you're sick, you'd be better advised to see a doctor rather than someone qualified in a completely different discipline.

Is it even legal for her to be giving out pills? I find that quite concerning.

It did seem to be a bit like going to see carpenter about a problem with a fungal growth on your apple tree...

Is it even legal for her to be giving out pills? I find that quite concerning.

No more illegal than a paper shop owner selling M&M's

Considering what was "prescribed" 😉

Just as an aside, I've had a cough since November (though it's never made me sick) - should I be going to see a doctor? Thought I might as well ask here!

Oh, and I've never made a bridge out of spaghetti - though I've heard of it being done.

[quote=nealglover ]

Is it even legal for her to be giving out pills? I find that quite concerning.

It appears she prescribed antibiotics... eventually.

Just as an aside, I've had a cough since November (though it's never made me sick) - should I be going to see a doctor? Thought I might as well ask here!

I probably would if it was me.

Although as pointed out earlier, I'm not a doctor, or a porter, or a cleaner etc.

It appears she prescribed antibiotics... eventually.

I had presumed (possibly wrongly) that he had gone to an actual Doctor rather than a surgeon, eventually.

(Maybe when she told him she had sent him away with sugar pills last time?)

Who knows.

I did go to an actual doctor. Correct.

I've had a cough since November (though it's never made me sick) - should I be going to see a doctor?

IIRC from the posters in my local practice, you should see a doctor if you've had a cough for over three weeks.

As an aside if you googke "spaghetti bridge" there are some quite amazing structures.

This bad boy won the [url= http://www.okanagan.bc.ca/Programs/Areas_of_Study/engineeringtechnologies/spaghettibridge/history/heavyweight.html ]2012 – 29th Annual Spaghetti Bridge Competition at Okanagan College[/url] by supporting a weight of 384.09 kg:

[img] [/img]

😀

My Mum is convinced by homoeopathy - keeps trying to shove Echinacea down my throat every time I visit.

Then again, she believes in God.

What's weird?

It's weird that rather than going to see your GP (or Austrian equivalent) with whooping cough you went to see a surgeon friend (who doesn't seem to be qualified to deal with the issue), and they recommended you take sugar pills rather than telling you to see a GP straight away. 😕

[quote=iolo ]... This includes brain spotting ...

The creator of Brainspotting has an interesting bio. Couple of excerpts:

Dr. Grand is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a PhD from International University
He has taught scene-work at the New Actors Workshop as well as privately coaching both stage and screen actors.

Not saying it doesn't work (I guess I'm intimating my scepticism) but he doesn't seem like a hard hitting psychology sort of fellow.

I took the sugar pills, I stopped coughing. Fact.

[img] [/img]

aracer - Member

Just as an aside, I've had a cough since November (though it's never made me sick) - should I be going to see a doctor? Thought I might as well ask here!

Worms. Probably terminal by this point, I wouldn't bother.

Google would suggest either there are not that many Drs in Austria or that only Drs can proscribe homeopathy not that all Drs have to be trained in Homeopathy.

The creator of Brainspotting has an interesting bio.

Ooh, I completely buzzed past that, I assumed it was just some sort of local slang for counselling. I'll have to look into that, ta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainspotting

Brainspotting is an advanced form of psychotherapy that uses the field of vision to access subcortical parts of the brain that are often hidden from our awareness.

Talk:Brainspotting

This page was nominated for deletion on March 12 2009. The result of the discussion was delete.

I looked at that too.

In the end I thought iolo's Dr/Surgeon/counsellor was getting enough gyp without introducing more witchcraft to the debate.

I did 12 months of cbt. That was a waste of time for me.
I'm currently doing mindfullness training wich again is not really working.
Brainspotting works for me.
It's that simple. I can control my triggers and mood swings so much better.

If it works for you, for whatever reason, then it's good 🙂

Beloved relatives posting pish about homopathy on FB

Biscuit anyone?

Are you the knower of all things in the universe and how everything works from a quantum level to astrophysics?

Is that the generally accepted standard of knowledge one needs before one can comment on an issue? By that standard no one would be qualified to comment on anything.

If not, do some research first before thinking you know everything

I have. I'm not aware of any study that shows that homeopathy works better than placebo. Do you know of any?

...do some research first before thinking you know everything

Biscuit anyone?

If I dunk will my tea remember?

Spin - Member

Is that the generally accepted standard of knowledge one needs before one can comment on an issue? By that standard no one would be qualified to comment on anything.

I have. I'm not aware of any study that shows that homeopathy works better than placebo. Do you know of any?

If I dunk will my tea remember?

🙂

Quite why that's so scary for people to admit is another story.

Because it would stifle all discussion if you had to be an expert on everything befor you could comment on anything.

So yes, real knowledge comes from knowing you know very little and going from there.

That is what Daniel Dennett would refer to as a Deepity. Real knowledge (to use your term) comes from weighing up as much of the available evidence as you can and forming an opinion on that. With the important caveat that new evidence should cause you to reevaluate your standpoint.

Yeah http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathic-medicine-_b_1258607.html

You mean the report written by homeopaths, edited by academics at a private University that teaches alternative medicine and, to quote the Swiss governments assessment of the findings, "It is very obvious that all or some of the authors have a positive attitude towards the treatments in question or are convinced about their efficacy. Unquestionably, strict proponents of the usual hierarchy of evidence will regard the presented evaluations as scientifically untenable and unreasonably positive…"

That report, right, hmm, not convincing me so far.

Yey 6079's back.

I'm not aware of any study that shows that homeopathy works better than placebo. Do you know of any?

How do you test this ? How do you make a placebo for a placebo ?

From the actual paper cited by the woo-peddler that wrote the huffpost article (woo-peddler had forgot to read it or perhaps has homeopathic glasses):

[i]"As regards the second project, in the view of the authors of the meta-analyses, [b]the available placebo-controlled studies on homeopathy do not demonstrate any clear effect over and above placebo[/b]. For phytotherapy, in contrast, a positive result is shown, as in the evaluation report, and for traditional Chinese herbal therapy an unequivocal assessment is not possible. Here, too, the validity of the conclusions of the meta-analyses should be regarded as limited from a methodological perspective."[/i]

Quite why that's so scary for people to admit is another story.

Not in the least. I love learning things.

So yes, real knowledge comes from knowing you know very little and going from there.

So.. let's see. If you know nothing at all about a particular treatment, what would you do? You would probably organise a double-blind trial on its efficacy, wouldn't you? Well, that's been done many times with homeopathy, and it's been found to be useless.

So why would you continue to believe otherwise? In the face of such overwhelming clinical evidence?