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Sounds like many of those involved cocked up massively. No NAN or RA to cover the change of activity. No first aider because one of the leaders didn’t attend and they lost control of the head count. There is also a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice levelled at Gilwell.
Lifelong member here - The organisation at top level is pretty rotten, i'm not surprised that someone at the top table has tried to cover this up/influence things. I think the organisation needs an enema then a reset as its loosing its way a bit..
Our WhatsApp is still buzzing away. We are by far the most active group in the district, maybe even the county. We camp 7 time a year and take parts in all sorts of events, so we are "out" an awful lot.
There's a genuine concern amongst our leaders that even though our procedures, training and paperwork are spot on, and we're not "reckless idiots", that we'll get shafted if an accident occurs.
We had a kid fall in a hole on a camp last year and bust a tooth. What if he had busted his head or worse? As a volunteer I wouldn't be wanting to face a criminal charge because a kid fell in a hole on the way to the loo.
Not well read but assume this is the lad that fell and died when separated from his group.
Putting my parent hat on, gutted for the victim of the accident and their family.
If i were the lad's parent i'd feel he had been failed, somehow no one was caring for him adequately. I'd bet the leaders involved feel very guilty and feel they failed him.
While enquiry is the right way to find the failings and stop future occurrences, if it's done in such a way that its 'wasn't my fault, the mistake was someone else's' is going about it wrong. Surely the approach should be more 'ive failed, what more could i have done to prevent this?'
It's clear the legality is driving the first behaviour. I read the family haven't had an apology from anyone yet. Ffs. That must be very hard for those close to it, both family and leaders.
Anyway, yes strawberry laces. Most are gelatine free/vegan approved but do check. Licorice or other flavours are available....i did have one beaver that didn't like strawberry!
Beavers sleep over next week. I'm not there over night although 6yo daughter is. First time away from home and clearly excited but growing nerves. I am on the Saturday morning shift to help with breakfast/ Walk in woods/ packing bags away and tents down/ games until parents arrive to collect.
My mad science plans progress. Just spent about £90 at amazon for bath bomb ingredients and slime ingredients.... and I've sewn the seed for a summer activity revisiting non newtonian fluids (eg slime) with an outdoor messy experiment....dance contest with competitors on/in a paddling pool of ooblec dance floor. If you have netflix, Emily's wonder lab episode 1, that's where i stole the idea.
Not sure how much we should be thinking and speculating on a public forum, given that there are criminal and no doubt civil actions ongoing.
The whole RA and training process was ramped up after the first inquest - kind of coincided with lockdown, and a LOT of leaders used the two to leave, often publicly moaning about the extra bureaucracy and H&S gone mad.
We (from an AAC/district position) ended up with a lot of leaders being chased for outstanding training, warrants being revoked, and more leaders lost.
At group/unit level, every activity indoors or outside has a risk assessment, stored as templates so they can be updated as and when required.
Seems to me this awful tragedy was just a series of bad decisions and oversight. If training was up to date, proper oversight in place and a risk assessment had been done then the inquest would have returned a different outcome.
Needs to be put into perspective as well - the largest youth organisation in the world, and this kind of tragedy is thankfully incredibly rare.
I don't think responsible and up to date leaders have anything to fear.
Intrigued by the investigation into "the Scouts" perverting the course of justice at the first inquest. Wasn't sure how far up the organisation this referred to.
Interesting reading about the RA's and planning. My daughter has recently transferred over to Army Cadets (i felt she'd out grown scouts/explorers), she's loving it but something that was clear is that as an MoD sponsored organisation, the RA's and planning etc is quite phenomenal -it’s also issued to parents ahead of the camps. I used to be a cadet years ago before doing a stint in the Army (completely unconnected) and I don’t quite remember this level of caution shown, clearly MoD being worried about litigation if something goes wrong (which it inevitably will do at some point).
As a slight tangent, has anyone here thought about ACF as a volunteer? I know the staff have their eye on me as daughter dropped me in it, but work will get in the way, however having a look through the Adventurous training calendar – I feel like joining just for that it’s brilliant. It’s still very much a youth organisation with MoD sponsoring, as such all of the trips are SOOOO much cheaper than Scouts etc – The DoE that our daughter signed up to a school prior to cadets was 5 x more than doing it through the ACF, thankfully we only paid the deposit which we transferred over to the ACF and this covered the total signup fee!
will always say, hats off to all of the Volunteers involved - by and large all do a fantstic job -so well done from this parent!!
As a slight tangent, has anyone here thought about ACF as a volunteer?
Not me, but worked with two ACF volunteers - I think one was a county level quite high up, the other led a unit. Known affectionately as Captain Mainwaring and Sergeant Wilson.
Both loved their roles, fitted it in around work and families, though work were generous with volunteer time.
Not sure how much we should be thinking and speculating on a public forum, given that there are criminal and no doubt civil actions ongoing.
Pretty sure our musings will have exactly nill effect on the legal process. In fact, I'm struggling to recall the last time that the STW forum was referenced in a court of law as part of a trial.
"yes, my Lord, we've heard the evidence but there is a user on a forum who, in total ignorance of all the facts, has drawn a completely different conclusion, so I feel there is no other option than to abandon the trial immediately"
As a slight tangent, has anyone here thought about ACF as a volunteer?
The ACF and CCF are great organisations and most of the adult volunteers are good people, selfless with their time and skills and are great youth mentors. Got loads of time for them. There are a small minority though, who mistakenly think their cadet rank equates to that held by regulars and and are officious and obnoxious with it. It's always great to watch when they try it on with regular serving personnel and have their attitude recalibrated!
I'll pitch in here for the first time, local cub leader, following thread and comments with interest.
The RA thing is interesting - I think sometimes scouts pushes this, just like I would say 80% of the mandatory training, as tick the box so legally they have CYA, rather than using these things as tools to change behaviour for the better.
I'm trying to look at them more as real tools to help me and leadership team create fun, adventurous activities with risks managed, if I prepare them like that, can be rather helpful.
However - we were doing blindfold ropes courses and spiders web stuff in the woods, and one kid arrived, bent down and instantly poked a stick right into his eye socket. Oh FFS, there's only so much I can manage! 🙂
(he was fine BTW)
And as above, keep up the good work folks!
Anyway.... Hebden Hey next weekend with 40 odd kids. All RAs passed by the DC so we're ready to rock! 10 miler around Hardcastle Craggs for the bigger ones in preparation for their Gold expedition, couple of wide games and our traditional Sunday morning disco.
Can’t leave the building without an RA
cant do anything inside without RA too!
re the comment about aftermath of an accident, it was drummed into us on the NA course (2 years ago) to get the NAN signed off as that’s you’re get out of jail card.
Makes me wonder if as well as no NAN, first aider etc whether anyone there had a relevant hillwalking permit. Doubt it as IIRC there was no leader at the back. Even when we’re walking around town on our local history/ghost night we have some at the front, in the middle & at the rear.
Onething that struck me on the NA course, we know to have the paperwork in place, but how do parents know that should be the case when they send in reply slips?
Our group are out camping 6-8 times a year, infact I’ve got some camp forms hot from the printer ready to take tonight. Will be interesting if there is any questions as a result of this case.
Apparently the perverting the course of justice thing relates to retrospectively trying to submit the missing forms. :-/
Apparently the perverting the course of justice thing relates to retrospectively trying to submit the missing forms.
That was my suspicion.
Full of respect for you guys that are so active, camping 6-8 times and out doing ought stuff! I'd love that for my kids but wouldn't think it possible from volunteers! Tbh, round here with all the other clubs kids do i doubt there would be call for it.....oh to be 40 years younger and a cub in your pack!
Is that 6-8 with the whole group or in total across the sections? .
Just our section. Lucky enough to have sufficient leader coverage so that we don't do them all.
The kids don't necessarily do them all either.
I suspect I'm going to be packing it all in soon. Just had my 25 year service award (approx 3 years late...), so that's not something I say lightly.
My friend and I are explorer Leaders by nature. But maybe 7 or 8 years ago, the Scout section fell apart and so we ran out of Explorers coming up, and ended up closing the Unit and taking over the Scouts to keep that running (which Group were very happy for us to do, despite having caused loads of friction with the Unit). Numbers fell over covid tho as we were both flat out with work rather than laying about on furlough. Last year, we finally had new leaders start running Scouts with a very successful re-launch and big numbers. But they're off to a new life in New Zealand in October, there's currently no-one other than the GSL to replace them, and we don't want to wind up running the Troop again.
In the meantime, Area were supposed to help us re-launch Explorers the same way they did Scouts, but nothing actually happened, and apparently the idea itself was news to the DESC... we felt rather unloved.
The current Scouts are young, they're not coming up for a while, so there's no way of starting from that angle.
And with this inquiry, my friend has decided he no longer wants to take on a full section leader role, so that means we'd also need another leader to join with us - and frankly, neither of us are getting any younger and Explorers should be run by young keen adventurous types rather than us!
I may look at a training role, or move to being a shooting skills advisor (the one thing I will really miss if I leave is the National Shooting Championships at Bisley)... but Area is quite cliquey and I'm not part of that, at the moment at least.
Sorry for a downbeat post, there's not really a lot of places I can talk about this stuff without putting noses out of joint!
6-8 with our section as we do a week camp every year then weekends as and when.
We’re building an archery/rifle range at our district campsite so have done some extra nights as we can camp for free when we go to do work.
Having a few camps helps get them used to the denands of a full week and gives a chance to do activities that would be a tight to fit in a 2hr evening. Like building a trebuchet.
Superb. I'm impressed you get enough kids to do that many but in awe that you have enough committed leaders to do it. Well done indeed.
I'm not sure what our scouts do, my kids aren't that age, but i think we do ok doing one full group camp (2 nights) one cub camp (2 nights) and one or two beaver sleep overs!
Hey defblade, if it's not fun for you and your mate you don't have to do it!
BITD we were taught not to produce written RAs as these tended to be filed and forgotten. During training we were told to carry out verbal RAs during planning, make notes and then discuss again before the activity. This seemed to work well, but since the Great Orme incident we are now required to produce written RAs which seem to be there primarily to cover your back..... I can't really see how a written RA rather than a verbal discussion would have prevented this tragedy.
@defblade- the SL for our other Scout section got to that point. He stepped down to ASL and the previous ASL’s became “joint” SL.
Due to the politics between them, he decided to pack it in but our GSL asked if he’d like to be AGSL with defined purpose. It got him away from the bickering but he was still able to assist with other sections when needed.
Could this be an option for you?
I can’t really see how a written RA rather than a verbal discussion would have prevented this tragedy.
It wouldn't, as they lost the head count and this poor lad and his mates ended up on their own. However, a written RA needs approval from the DC, so they are aware of what you are doing at a District level and have the opportunity to tell you not to.
Problem is though, if you don't submit then District don't now what you are doing.
a written RA needs approval from the DC
No it doesn't, only for nights away activities.
All of our outdoor and offsite ones do. Maybe its a local thing.
Local rules 😉
Suits us. Belt and braces.
Writing it down and i suspect getting district approval is to check its being done and on record, the district may be actually looking at it to ensure its quality..... should be...
They do. Had them knocked back in the past.
I can’t really see how a written RA rather than a verbal discussion would have prevented this tragedy.
Being slightly cynical, it's not just to prevent a tragedy, it's to try and convince an enquiry/ambulance chaser that you have not been negligent.
Agreed. It's the thought going into it not writing it down that makes it any good.
Writing it down is a record it's been done. It does also allow it to be checked, reviewed, improved, so no bad thing but yes, it can be done well verbally off course.
Being slightly cynical, it’s not just to prevent a tragedy, it’s to try and convince an enquiry/ambulance chaser that you have not been negligent.
At work a lot of training deals with post incident management - court, inquests, IOPC etc. The rule is “if it isn’t written down it didn’t happen “. RAs etc can’t be verbally cascaded.
A big well done to all the leaders at Croydon 61st. Another beaver sleep over done and 7 or 8 beavers that have had their first night away (2 or 3 are already moving up that Staged badge). I went along this morning to help out and it seemed they had all had a great time, including my 6yo. Proud dad. She was a little nervous before hand but loved it. All booked up for group camp in May along with big sister (in Cubs).
excellent! <br />Im sort of camping this weekend-helping out running tomahawks for a friends cub camp.
I’m in the midst of planning for a May camp for our scout sections and hoping to upgrade my NA permit to greenfield. We’ll be running air rifles, archery and tomahawks so usually get a good attendance. Can’t wait.
Just got back from a weekend at Hebden Hey. Cubs, Scouts and Explorers. 50 kids.
Weather was shit, the site was a swamp and the access road an absolute nightmare as there were another hundred kids on. But we had a brilliant time. Some of our new Scouts got their sub-zero, we had a walk up to Hardcastle Craggs and a Saturday Night Disco as well as the Sunday Morning Disco!
Another beaver sleep over done and 7 or 8 beavers that have had their first night away (2 or 3 are already moving up that Staged badge)
Amazing work. That first night away is an incredible step for youngsters at that age. Watched my lad go from his first Beaver sleepover to WSJ in 2019, all made possible by leaders and helpers like you.
MrsMC (Guide leader) and LittleMissMC (Young Leader) are helping at a Rainbow sleepover next month - doesn’t seem that long since I dropped her at her first Rainbow sleepover.
An interesting discussion happened on camp this weekend amongst the Explorers and Leaders…
Who should be Chief Scout?
We all agreed that Bear is a bit on an arse, especially by those that have met him, so who would we have instead…
Names that were floated:
Tim Peak
Princess of Wales
Steve Backshall (very popular with the kids)
Bob Mortimer (my suggestion)
Clive Myrie
Tim Peak or Steve Backshall off that list.
A female Chief Scout would be great, but HRH is probably not going to fit it in.
I was surprised at HRH, but numbers spiked when she did some work with Beavers a few years ago.
Prince Harry would be great if things weren't so messed up with him and the media.
Steve backshall would be brilliant
I think, like much of the shenanigans coming out of Gilwell, whoever is Chief Scout makes bugger all difference on the ground.
Plus I'd reeeeeeeally rather it not be a royal, there's too much King and Country forelock tugging bollocks in Scouting as it is.
[on a related note, I've recently become a payment authoriser on the group bank account, and our payment up to Gilwell was paid recently. I was gobsmacked at the amount. It's a lot of money for very, very little in return]
Is there a Clive Myrie/Scouting link I've missed somehow?
Jason fox might interest/inspire some but.... why one chief scout? Why not a group ...a naturalist, a scientist, a pioneer/bushman, a chef, a sports person .. . There could be others of course.
Clive Myrie was a curve ball to get them to think broader, and it stuck.
Authority figure, sense of humour, had the balls to stand on the roof in Kyiv when the missiles were flying.
I still think Bob Mortimer would be great.
[i]why one chief scout? Why not a group …a naturalist, a scientist, a pioneer/bushman, a chef, a sports person .. . [/i]
I think to answer this you have to answer the question "why have a Chief Scout?"
How about
To inspire kids and show them what effort can achieve. To be a 'celebrity' for award winners to enjoy and remember meeting.
If asked 40 years ago I might have said Ranulph Fiennes, I can't think of a modern day explorer equivalent but there must be....
Fiennes, John Noakes etc. They would have been my pick back in the 80s.
Prior to Peter Duncan it was always a military man or some senior civil servant.
Good job it was Peter Duncan and not John Noakes - Blue Peter had started to do risk assessments by that point!
[i]To inspire kids and show them what effort can achieve.[/i]
Does it do that though? Interestingly, we did a thing on culture and values the other week and as part of it asked them to name some people they see as role models and why. In the list we had Gandhi (for professing peace), Stevie Wonder (for success over adversity), Martin Luther (for standing up for his beliefs) and many others (including, I have to say me, which was quite I was quite chuffed about). Bear Grylls was not mentioned. He's never mentioned.
I think it's one of the may things in Scouts that (some) Leaders and above see as important, but the scouts themselves couldn't really give a toss about. See, also, flags, uniforms, promises, saluting, the proper place to sew a particular badge, the list goes on.
[on a related note, I’ve recently become a payment authoriser on the group bank account, and our payment up to Gilwell was paid recently. I was gobsmacked at the amount. It’s a lot of money for very, very little in return]
I think they may need funds due to a recent inquest...
Chief Scout? Shouldn’t it be Chief Volunteer?
How about Ben Fogle.
Inspire, he/ she/ they should I think yes. Maybe Bear does for some maybe not for others. I've heard people say his motivational speeches/ shows are very good. The guy did manage to get up Everest at a young age so has something about him. I would guess being a personality means most kids think he's worth meeting.
The military links/beginnings to scouting have always bothered many and I get that. Others are inspired by the backwoods, exploring, 'scouting', team work, giving all for others. Some are inspired more by top sportsmen and women.....Sir Steven Redgrave would have been a great option perhaps, others see those traits more readily in...a politician, a chef, an F1 designer and more.
[i]I think they may need funds due to a recent inquest…[/i]
Well, indeed.
As a thought experiment, if everything in Scouting 'upwards' from your group didn't exist (so no district, no HQ etc), what would the impact be?
As a thought experiment, if everything in Scouting ‘upwards’ from your group didn’t exist (so no district, no HQ etc), what would the impact be?
Well, there is quite a lot of stuff, from insurance deals to "do we have to make our own badges now?"; Local Rules would go insane without POR... so on and so forth.
But I certainly raised eyebrows at one Appointments Committee when asked about District... I said something along the lines of "District comes and District goes..." Expanded to: it depends who is running it at the time. When it's there and active, great, but when it's not, we carry on running regardless.
why one chief scout? Why not a group …a naturalist, a scientist, a pioneer/bushman, a chef, a sports person .. . There could be others of course.
Try getting something done by committee.
But I certainly raised eyebrows at one Appointments Committee when asked about District… I said something along the lines of “District comes and District goes…” Expanded to: it depends who is running it at the time. When it’s there and active, great, but when it’s not, we carry on running regardless.
Districts are only expendable if you have well run groups below them.
Try getting something done by committee.
reminds me of this:
Committees of twenty deliberate plenty.
Committees of ten act now and then.
But most jobs are done by committees of one.
Well, there is quite a lot of stuff, from insurance deals to “do we have to make our own badges now?”; Local Rules would go insane without POR… so on and so forth.
Insurance - fair enough
Badges - if there's a market, someone will make them
Local rules/POR - I suppose this is linked to the insurance thing; if you've followed POR for safety/safeguarding stuff, the insurance will cover you. But much of POR is about where to se which badges, what flags to use and when to fly them, all that kind of 'officious' stuff. That could all be stripped out and if local groups have local rules for that kind of thing, fine, let them.
Districts are only expendable if you have well run groups below them.
Maybe we're in a well-run group, but I don't know what District is for. And what difference would a well-run District make to a badly-run group?
Try getting something done by committee.
But the Chief Scout doesn't 'do' anything, it's just a figurehead position.
Current one carefully manages his brand...
Maybe we’re in a well-run group, but I don’t know what District is for. And what difference would a well-run District make to a badly-run group?
We support struggling groups with leaders/training. We have in the past acted as the badge buying point to get bigger discounts. We provide the oversight for training thats overdue (which should be a GSL job). We arrange district wide training events, again for cost and convenience. We provide a minibus that no groups on their own could afford. We arrange district events and competitions. We coordinate the Explorer groups/YL training and Network activities to try and avoid losing people at 16/18 years old.
All of which a good group can do, if they have the time and volunteers. If you don’t have enough, a district can fill that gap.
Our District is pretty switched on. We may grumble about the politics, but we couldn't do the amount of stuff that we do without them.
Committees of twenty deliberate plenty.
Committees of ten act now and then.
But most jobs are done by committees of one.
“Decisions are always made in committees with an odd number of people, and three people is already too many,” Marshal Foch once said about decision-making. On the same subject, General de Gaulle declared, “I have heard your points of view. They do not match mine. The decision is therefore unanimous.”
All of which a good group can do, if they have the time and volunteers. If you don’t have enough, a district can fill that gap.
What about a badly run group that is anti-district? Asking for a friend.
We support struggling groups with leaders/training. We have in the past acted as the badge buying point to get bigger discounts. We provide the oversight for training thats overdue (which should be a GSL job). We arrange district wide training events, again for cost and convenience. We provide a minibus that no groups on their own could afford. We arrange district events and competitions. We coordinate the Explorer groups/YL training and Network activities to try and avoid losing people at 16/18 years old.
All of which a good group can do, if they have the time and volunteers. If you don’t have enough, a district can fill that gap.
I mean, fair play, and hats off to you, that's all good stuff.
Just had an awesome night at beavers! I knew it would be, I remembered it from last year so volunteered early. We had Ben from https://www.spiritofthewild.biz/
Come along with some of his AMAZING animals! Kids and leaders overcoming personal fears to hold (big, hairy) spiders, very big snakes, skunks, huge great wolves (well...husky, wolves aren't legal) and lots of less scary cute ones like barn owls, chinchilla and meerkats. Super proud of my 6yo who overcame a massive fear of dogs to call Ice the husky to her and get him to sit (the treat ice knew she had behind her back helped). And I got to hold a golden Eagle! One of only two world wide that meet the public close up. Incredible.
I thoroughly thoroughly recommend Ben to anyone with beavers or other kids groups. That's the 3rd time I've seen him in the last year as I had him come to my 8yos birthday too . He is based near Stansted but happily comes all over South London so I guess does quite a distance.
Awesome.
I mean, fair play, and hats off to you, that’s all good stuff.
To be fair, we've just merged with another district to make sure we can keep doing it.
What about a badly run group that is anti-district? Asking for a friend.
Keep your head down and focus on doing the best you can for the kids.
Brilliant!
We had Viper and Vine who are local to us bring in some creatures a few years back.
Here's me (on the left) well outside my comfort zone!
spiders, very big snakes, skunks, huge great wolves (well…husky, wolves aren’t legal) and lots of less scary cute ones like barn owls, chinchilla and meerkats.
Christ, would hate to be in an RTA with his van on the way to an event
Harry that looks very like the red tailed boa Ben brought today, and I had round my neck at my daughter's birthday!
He also brings out a smaller black/ white/ red snake, holds it firmly by the head and gets the kids to hold it while explaining bright colours are a warning...coral snakes are very venomous... nerve venomous... dead in 45 minutes.... the faces in the room are all turning white... then he says of course I can't bring a coral snake, this is a milk snake, it mimics the coral 🤣
One of our gsl doesn't like snakes and basically had to leave the hut for that bit!
We has a talk off MAG (Mine Action Group) a couple of weeks back. Very interesting.
Christ, would hate to be in an RTA with his van on the way to an event
I laughed too much at that!
Beavers and Squirrels were at the lical library this week for World Book Day and reading badges.
Last week they were at the Fire Station. Had to beat off parent helpers with a shitty stick. Where are they on a wet weekend to help take tents down?
Last term we took ours to Buxton Fire Station as they'd said on a previous visit that they'd do some first aid training for us. The chap welcomed us in and just after he'd introduced himself and said that they were a working fire station so could be called out, the bells went off. He gave me a very apologetic look and, understandably, scarpered.
So back to the hut for a very impromptu games night 🙂
Had the Guide Dog people in a few years back, which is great if you like dogs.
Haha. Yes our lot go to the local firestation and thoroughly enjoy it. I took my kids to visit my brother.... station officer at a retained station in Essex for a personal/ private look around. My 3yo nearly burst with excitement 🤣
We did a fire station visit.
One fire fighter showed the leaders their Trophy Draw full of items that they have had to cut off people. Mostly curtain rings and handcuffs.
We quite often get the PCSOs down to the hut so the kids can sit in the cars and play with the lights and sirens
Loving being a venture leader, at the pool today teaching them how to use a safety throw rope bag and then my first kayak roll in 30 years.
Sloppy, muscles are whining but a great laugh.
Took our cub pack on a visit to Metro Bank last night, they had a great time, even visited the bank vault. https://www.metrobankonline.co.uk/about-us/kids-zone/
Hoping to organise a safety visit to our local train station next term.
Our Beaver leader mentioned last night that they are doing a night hike next week. Time and location overlap with our Cycle for Health ride. 20 turquise ninjas, 20 cyclists on narrow muddy tracks in the dark....
Both groups are updating their risk assessments!