[Closed] Be Honest, am i being unreasonable? Selling a property & splitting.

Is the hassle worth £5000?

I think you're being overly reasonable. I think many in your situation would just go for a 50:50 split and forget about where the deposit came form unless there was something in writing.

Key question is who's names are on the deeds / mortage.

Negotiate for "interest" of less than £5,000.

I think you are being reasonable.
You're probably entitled to a full 50% of the equity.

I would think it is fair that her original investment of £15,000 should have grown somewhat.. is the house worth more now than when you bought it? you need to see what percentage the value of the house has increasd and give her that on top of her investment + 50% of the equity. Did you put in for the deposit? If she fronted all of the deposit then she should get that back IMO.

Its tricky, 15k then is worth less than 15k now. Though yes it sounds like you put more into the equity side of things. Look into (quietly incase it goes the other way) what 15k then adjusted for inflation is now, then maybe split the difference. End of the day things sound to be reasonably amicable and 5k will still be cheaper than getting the lawyers in.

"I'll give you half I own plus an extra £15k."

"Not good enough, I want £20k."

"Tell you what then, we'll go for a 50/50 split and you can sue me. See how much better off we both are after the lawyers have taken their cut."

Strikes me as you're being perfectly reasonable, but I'm no expert. I don't really understand how people can go from being the loves of each other's lives to wanting to screw each other as badly as possible.

I have a close friend that bought a house with his then GF he had the deposit money from the death of his father... he never saw a penny of that when they split.. seeemd unfair at the time but everyone else makes better points than mine.

Interest! It wasn't a f***ing bank account, it was a house purchase. Just because the relationship's gone tits up doesn't mean she can retrospectively look at what she WOULD have done with the 15K.

15K back + 50% of whatever's left is a very good deal, if she turns that down then Cougar's route is the only alternative.

the interest on her 15k is the half of the remaining equity.

TBH without a deed of trust or whatever its called detailing her 15k, she's lucky you are being that reasonable. You could just say ok sod the 15k lets have a 50/50 split.

15k in 1998 is approx 21.5k now

[url= http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html ]http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html[/url]

House is registered in joint names as joint ownership (no stated equity split) so yes i could go for the full 50% but that's not my style.

House was bought in 2001 for £104'000 & now valued at circa £220'000.

Unkle & Rizla - This is what she is saying however as i have pointed out, if it hadn't been for my income we would never have been able to afford to keep the house for the first 9-10 years as her income wasn't sufficient to cover all bills where as mine was so we have both put in over the years one way or another, i'm not going to charge her interest on the monthly money over & above her's which I've contributed & don't see what she should do the same with the lump sum.

EDIT: wot toys19 said 🙂

Toy's - Thats what i've told her but her words were, without my deposit we would never have been able to buy the property!!

Let's hope it doesn't get to that cougar but if it does does anyone know of any hitmen,,,,, the life insurance is still in place 😆

yeah without your extra payments into the mortgage and hard work, or your mortgagability because of your salary you would not have got the mortgage either.

Send her to a solicitor to get legal advice, she will get a shock.

In the meantime don't bother discussing/thinking about it, not worth the hassle.

what would she want if there was negative equity?

House is registered in joint names as joint ownership (no stated equity split) so yes i could go for the full 50% but that's not my style.

House was bought in 2001 for £104'000 & now valued at circa £220'000.

Unkle & Rizla - This is what she is saying however as i have pointed out, if it hadn't been for my income we would never have been able to afford to keep the house for the first 9-10 years as her income wasn't sufficient to cover all bills where as mine was so we have both put in over the years one way or another, i'm not going to charge her interest on the monthly money over & above her's which I've contributed & don't see what she should do the same with the lump sum.

I concur, 100%. You are being reasonable, she is not. In my honest opinion.
In terms of how to take it forward, don't know, presumably you want to keep things amicable?
If not then demand a full 50% equity share, see if that wakes her up a bit.

When you moved in she "owned" £15k more of the house than you did.

Her return on that £15k investment, should be whatever percentage the house has increased in value over the time you owned it.

You couldn't have bought it without her investment, so it seems only fair that she sees a return on that investment.

This may not be the Legal way of doing it, but it seems like the "right way" way to me.

So if the house has in fact increased in value by 33.3% in the time you have owned it, then £20k return on her £15k investment seems fair.

EDIT. - just seen the purchase price and current value. above.

The house has increased by 112% (ish) so really she could be asking for around £31.5K return on her £15k investment in the house

Ask yourself what she would do if the tables were turned. I think you have your answer 🙂
(sorry about the split by the way..)

Having just done this myself, we split everything 50/50 regardless of initial investment.

I did somehow manage to end up with 10k's worth of furniture though!

she reckons her £15k would have grown by 33% as an investment since 2001?

birky - don't think you can compare inflation with interest rates

toys / cougar +1

Sounds to me like she's either trying it on or is extremely naive. She's lucky to be getting her full deposit back, let alone anything more.

House is registered in joint names as joint ownership (no stated equity split) so yes i could go for the full 50% but that's not my style.

Bollocks to her, then. You're doing the right thing by offering £15k (it's what I'd have done too), she should be tearing your hand off. If she's going to take the piss, withdraw that offer and see how she likes the idea of 'only' fifteen grand then.

i'm not going to charge her interest on the monthly money over & above her's which I've contributed & don't see what she should do the same with the lump sum.

Maybe that's your counter, then. "Sure, I'll be happy to pay you the interest on the £15k. Let me just work out what you owe me on interest for my overpayments, then we can work out how much you're in deficit overall."

In honesty, I wouldn't get involved in any of this. Women are <rash generalisation alert> very good at arguing over minutiae and ultimately it's a game in which you're probably going to come out worst off. As a wise computer once said, the only way of winning is not to play. I'd suggest a gambit of "we should split the house 50/50 as we've both contributed significantly over the years, however as a gesture of goodwill I'm prepared to give you an additional 15k to repay your deposit. Take it or leave it." Do not enter into discussions that run along the lines of "yes, but I put in an extra grand in March 2001," because there be dragons.

how much have you subbed her for mortgage?

My initial response was just that.. after some thought and reading other peoples comments I now see why your're being reasonable. her £15k is of equivalent or less value to the payments you made for the first 10 years..( I missed this somehow) remind her of this. Then see a solicitor. Good luck. 🙂

Looking at it totally coldly, the house is approximately doubled in value since you bought it, so that initial £15k 'stake' of hers is now worth £30k+.

However, what it comes down to is a simple equation, i.e. is

percieved cost of what you deem to be fair - legal costs > £5000

When me and my other half split, we both took some financial stuff on the chin. We both judged that it wasn't worth the hassle of fighting over relatively small amounts.

If she is wanting interest on the 15k then surly it is only fair you get recompense for your additional payment on the mortgage in the initial few years.

At the end of the day you have 3 options

1 Try and convince her you are being reasonable with everything being taken into consideration.
2 Give in and pay her to get everything settled sharpish and move on
3 Tell her politely to take her proposal and role it tightly, grease it lightly and shove it. Then let the lawyers sort it out and take their cut

4 Compromise on the £5k to settle quickly for less stress/hassle.

Toys and cougArs argments also have validity. By buying a house with her money and living it, she has saved on rent and seen her 15k grow into a sizeable share of equity.

It may be worth, quietly, seeing a solicitor to see how the legal reality lies. Don't let on incase the ground is soft and she lawyers up, but no harm in getting an informed opinion, over that of a bunch of people skiving at work 😀

edit: sorry 😆

Coug[b]a[/b]r.

Grr, argh.

[quote=Cougar ]Coug[b]a[/b]r.
Grr, argh.
You think you've got it bad? It seems half the keyboards in the UK don't have an "h" key !!!

I was in a similar situation many years ago. It all comes down to what you're able to negotiate because legal fees would take all of what you're arguing over.

[i]By buying a house with her money and living it, she has saved on rent and seen her 15k grow into a sizeable share of equity.[/i]

It could be fairly argued that the equity in the house is:

£220k - mortgage settlement - £32k (which is what her 15k is now worth with the increase in the value of the house).

So, if the mortgage settlement is, say 100k, then the equity is:

220-100-32 = 88k. So you get 44k, she gets 76k.

Maybe just pay the 5k and be done with it...

Sorry, but if I'd stupped up the 15K deposit and seen that level of equity growth, Id want more than that back at the end personally.

If the house has doubled in value then so has her 15K. So I say it is reasonable for her to expect about 30K+ back

Cheers guy's.

She's not reasonable about money which is the trouble & has caused the issues that ultimately led to us splitting up.

Her parents are visiting for a while (not staying here) & are very rational, her mum thinks her daughter has made a massive mistake in splitting with me as do most of her friends but that's by the by.

I'm hoping they can talk some sense in to her so we can just get on with it. Oh & yes IMO it is worth it over £5k given I'm still paying a loan back for some work we had done to the house a few yrs ago which i won't see a penny in help from her on!

Cheers again guys...... will up date you all how it goes as i know you all love a good relationship thread 😉

A friends ex went for this too, in the end she got 50% of the equity as the deposit wasn't in writing. He, like you, offered the deposit back and then 50% of what is left...

She got all shirty and went legal, she got a big bill, he didn't as a Lawyer owed him a favour (plus hated her family - small town).

she'll get more than that back at the end djg, 15k plus 50% of the balance of the equity. Or have I missed something?

anyway, bigsi, as above, your best approach would be to give her £500 cash to go and talk to a solicitor and then come back when she has some sense.

It could be fairly argued that the equity in the house is:

£220k - mortgage settlement - £32k (which is what her 15k is now worth with the increase in the value of the house).

So, if the mortgage settlement is, say 100k, then the equity is:

220-100-32 = 88k. So you get 44k, she gets 76k.

Maybe just pay the 5k and be done with it...

They both contributed to the house, in different way according to their means at the time.n Having read the OP again, and thought about it, either 50/50 split, or just sit down with a calculator and work it all out. One way or the other, rather than a cherry pick, but that is a pretty sure way of ensuring ill held grudges and bad feelings etc...

I struggle with long sentences you are being very reasonabbly
Basically [ well if you were married] it would all be split 50/50 including pensions earned to date and possibly other stuff.
Who paid for what or contributed the most is irrelvant it is all to be shared as joint assets- assumin gyou ar ebnoth named on the mortgage etc.
I would tell her to accept the deal or you will argue 50/50 and advise her to see a solicitor who will advise her to accept your offer - then withdraw it and offer ehrr 10 k 😈

Are you staying in the house?

Hmmmm, I went through a messy divorce a few years back and we split the proceeds from the house as follows:-

We each took back our deposit. Anything else was split 50:50. So kind of not what your ex is trying to do.

Solicitors and Judge thought this was fair.

The counter argument is you need to work out exactly who has spent what over the last 14 years. A deposit is just part of a financial commitment.

These things are never easy. Use a solicitor - but don't get into tit-for-tat arguments over stuff like this.

In the grand scheme of life it's not worth it.

Oh & she wants me to sit down with her tonight and work out what she will be able to borrow as a mortgage & what its gonna cost her because as a mortgage advisor thats what i do for a living.

Jog on kitty 😆

Sorry, but if I'd stupped up the 15K deposit and seen that level of equity growth, Id want more than that back at the end personally.

Assuming they then both contributed equally afterwards, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Besides which, people contribute to a house in other ways. Ever decorated? Put up shelves? Fitted a kitchen? Who paid for all that? Who pays all the utility bills? How can you even begin to add that up?

It's like trying to split a restaurant bill by arguing who had the steak, and if someone skipped a starter but had dessert, and whether you had two pints of lager or three, only it's a meal that lasted 14 years. Madness.

IHN - Not sure yet, a mate has offered to go in with me & we can buy her out as he want's somewhere in the area & it'd be cheaper than renting.

bigsi - Member

House is registered in joint names as joint ownership (no stated equity split) so yes i could go for the full 50% but that's not my style.

You are being more than reasonable, she is not, if the house is joint ownership with nothing to describe the split of owenrship it is 50:50 - regardless of who paid what when... She is lucky you're willing to send the 15k back her way... Let her go and get some legal advice, let her see the fee tables from her solicitor, and then see if she is still being pissy...

Cougar - re the restaurant bill, you've met her haven't you 😆

Horrible times. Nobody wins. Incredible how a person changes when money is very much involved. It leaves a taste.

[i]It's like trying to split a restaurant bill by arguing who had the steak, and if someone skipped a starter but had dessert, and whether you had two pints of lager or three, only it's a meal that lasted 14 years. [/i]

Yeah, and in situations like that I sit back and say "okay then, you work it all out and tell me what I owe, because I can't be arsed". It's the same principle, only bigger sums involved.

I personally think you're being reasonable but, without knowing the full ins and outs and the history, people and personalities involved, I'd be tempted to let £5k be the cost of a clean and hassle-free break.

Saying that, these things tend to calm after a few weeks or so as all the parties begin to start thinking logically and not emotionally. You may find an amicable agreement just falls into place as everyone calms down. That's the key though, staying calm.

Oh & she wants me to sit down with her tonight and work out what she will be able to borrow as a mortgage & what its gonna cost her because as a mortgage advisor thats what i do for a living.

That made me laugh sandwich. Get her to sign a fee agreement then send it to the solicitor so they can pay it to me on completion 😆

If there was no prior agreement, and you both contributed to the house to live in as a family home - then its almost certain that she'll get no better than 50%

So give her 50%

Its over, thats the way it goes, you don't owe here any favours any more, and if the boot was on the other foot, you'd be getting screwed for the full 50%, guaranteed.

The rules for non married couples are that each takes out what they put in. So for example, if that 15K put her share of the equity up to 60% overall she is entitled to 60% of the sales price. It obviously depends on the appreciation of the property but £5000 seems very reasonable and if she starts getting legal advice, it might escalate.

The fact that it is registered 50:50 is not relevant. In my case the house was in my exs name but because I put in a big chunk of equity I got the majority of the value when divvied up.

@bigsi, I'm a banker, I see you are a mortgage advisor, I just want to state for the record this recession is all your fault 😕

If the house is registered in joint names she's entitled to 50% of the equity after the loan is paid off. That's my understanding.

I'm not entirely sure what she's asking for, a total settlement of £15+£5 or half the equity growth plus £15 ?

I'd say the main lesson here is that sort of "arrangement" where you are unmarried but she doesn't contribute to the mortgage or pay rent is fraught with danger.

Best of luck with it all and only joking about the recession of course.

Bah, some bloody wimmin! Can't live with 'em, can't [s]live without[/s] kill 'em 😈

You are being reasonable, although you probably know that by now.

The rules for non married couples are that each takes out what they put in... The fact that it is registered 50:50 is not relevant.

Ianv - I can promise you, from bitter experience and a large legal bill, that this is definitely not the case, and that rebutting the presumption that equity will follow the law (ie. joint ownership = 50:50) is a very big uphill battle in all but the rarest cases.

Edit - I think Kernott v Jones is the most up to date caselaw on the subject

Cheers jamablaya... I thought it was all the fault of your lot? 😆

Got a number for a solicitor I'll be speaking to tomorrow so i can get an "experts" opinion, not that you all don't know what you're talking about or anything 😉

Cheers again guys, made me smile if nothing else which is what makes STW great 8)

Pay the 5k, seems a small price to pay to get rid of an ex who sounds like she could become a pain in the arse.

(then sleep with a few of her friends)

The 'interest' is their share of the equity. I think you're right to take the £15k out as a lump sum and then split the remaining equity 50/50.

As you weren't married then there's little 'legal' help out there. As has been said, I think it's perfectly fair to say 'You can have your £15k plus half the remaining equity or spend more money on lawyers, wait a year or two and then end up with less.'

No need to be nasty just firm. It's their choice.

Ianv - I can promise you, from bitter experience and a large legal bill, that this is definitely not the case, and that rebutting the presumption that equity will follow the law (ie. joint ownership = 50:50) is a very big uphill battle in all but the rarest cases.

Maybe I was lucky, but I got legal advice as did she and we were were both told the same: what you put in you have the right to take out, I was not even on the deeds but I got over 2/3 of the value of the house as I had put in the equivalent in equity.

I guess you could work out how much each of you has paid on the mortgage over the years but it's not really worth it.

How much do you now owe on the mortgage of the original £100k?

and yes tbh I would just cut my losses and get rid but try and grab some other stuff you want and make sure she doesnt try and claim part ownership of your bikes!

No idea legally but what would seem "fair" to me would be if she got the percentage of the sale price (minus any fees) that the £15K represented at the time of purchase and the remainder is split 50/50. So if the house was worth £150K at the time of purchase the £15K was 10% of the value. If the house is now worth £300K and you still owe £100K she gets £115K and you £85K.

I think you are being very fair,but my opinion doesn't matter,hers does.You can try to persuade her you are being fair,but it's only when the solicitors bills start to arrive ,that she may start to see sense,but then again she may not.It may not be nice to hear,but giving in to her may be the easiest and cheapest way to sort this out.Sorry.
Ian

I suppose if neither party is going to budge as each believes they're 'right', maybe splitting the difference might be the least hassle.

Ie, offer her an additional 2.5K. Then in your mind you're 2.5 down, in hers so is she, but in the grand scheme of things when you're talking about money into seven figures a couple of grand is neither here not there. Certainly cheaper than solicitors and might be worth the hit just to get on with life.

Bigsi, if your saying that the 5k matters because of the loan then you might want to point out that the loan is the same as the mortgage and needs to be paid of in full before any equity is taken out. After all the home improvements will have increased the house value.

On the 5k front just think how much you paid extra in those first 8 or 9 years. It's not hard to work out if you put in just £500 more than her a month this equates to £48k over 8 years. That's a hell of a lot more than the £15k she put in.

IMO pay the mortgage, any outstanding bills, loans etc. give her 15k then split the rest 50/50. That is more than reasonable.

How about she gets the same proportion of the house value back that she put down to start with. For example, if the house has gone up 10% she gets £16 500.

Having seen it from the other side of the fence - the house MrsMM (beta version) and I shared was purchased with the deposit monies coming from an inheritance from her grandma. House was in her name. All bills etc in joint names. She earned the most money, it was her idea we split the bills percentage wise, based on income...
When we split i popped into a free advice session with a local solicitor - he advised i'd be lucky to leave with the clothes I had on my back....
Fortunately, Mrs MM Mk1 was much more reasonable (as were her family), we split the equity 50/50...

A rather long winded way of saying, i think you're being 100% reasonable.
If it keeps things smooth and moves things along, come to an agreement on the 5k -as said above it'd cost a lot more (and, not, just in £'s) to argue it out through solicitors...

Hope it works out smoothly & quickly.

Sorry about the split.

She says you couldn't have bought without her deposit. She couldn't have bought without your contribution.

I do feel for you, 18 years ago I split up with a boyfriend with whom I owned some cycling stock - he insisted on splitting it half each. I kid you not, we even unrolled a roll of rim tape (yes, really) to measure it to have half each. He tried to claim my tandem and recumbent were half his (no way, I brought them with me).

Lol, I've still got my share of the spokes, I found them at the weekend when I was doing some sorting out - still unused!

Alternatively, split the equity 50:50 then offer her £7.5k to repay her for the half the deposit she lent you. See if she likes them apples 🙂

Ianv and Z111 from memory you are both right there are two forms of co ownership of land "joint tenancy" and "tenantcy in common" joint tenants would get 50/50 split irrespective of deposit tenants in common can get what they put in. Most purchases for couples are joint tenants so that if one dies the other gets the lot.

The answer will depend on what is on the charge certificate (deeds) see a solicitor preferably the one who did the house purchase.

Warning this is based on my memory of my land law module from 20 years ago .

She just won't budge. I've pointed out all of the above and it makes no difference to her. She is just so bloody minded & tight fisted, always has been to be fair. I think she's heading for a breakdown if I'm honest.

She asked me to work out for her how much she can afford to borrow. I said i need her salary slip which she has gone & got. I asked her for it but she has just sat there crying for the last 15 mins. It's pitiful considering she was the one who broke it up with me in the first place.

Jesus, women....present company excepted 😆

Crankboy. I'm a mortgage advisor & can tell you its joint tenants on ours as i remember the conversation with the solicitor & yes you are right that is how it works.

Oh dear, sounds awful (for both of you).

If I get a chance tomorrow I'll ask at work what your legal position is - but don't hold me to that, they are very busy.

14 years?
She put in £15k initially?
Did you put up any deposit?
Was your salary considered in order to get the loan?
You put in more in repayments (how much more?)
Any trust deed?
What does the Office Copy (of your title) say? (Can get from Land Registry for £4).
Does it state anything other than just both your names? I mean as to percentages?

The difference between joint tenants and tenants in common is: if you are joint tenants and one dies, the other gets the whole house - if you are tenants in common and one dies their half passes under the Will - or under the intestacy rules if no Will which, if you are married, is to the spouse. If not married, to children. I can't remember what happens if no children.

Ta bigsi so 50/50...two new words for you distance and boundaries..you won't stay sane if you try to help her plan her finances and clearly your interests don't coincide if you try to help she may turn round and blame you for any problems.

[i]she has just sat there crying for the last 15 mins. [/i]

Wonder what else she'll do to get the £5k...

So if there was negative equity would she be taking on a higher share of the debt?

Sorry if this sounds judgemental but she sounds a right manipulative selfish cow and it might be worth £5k to get rid of her. Can you negotiate some kind of "never darken my door again" clause into it ?

She just won't budge

Tell her to sue you then.

Wonder what else she'll do to get the £5k...

That's a lot of BJs.

This loan you have , how much and for what ?
Has to be factored in. I had a similar situation and ended up fighting and won. I didn't want to but she dug her heels in over a pittance and I had been very accommodating so decided to stand up for my rights. She tried the waterworks and all the other tricks. In the end she sadly was about 30% down on the original offer. I also had a full and final clause put in but that didn't stop a letter 7 years later asking for a contribution from my business sale. How I responded to that is for another thread...