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Forgive me for turning up to the forum in a short skirt. I must be asking for it.
as a chap who has been know to wear ladies clothes, you do have to be very careful with the length of "short skirt" and how supportive your undergarments are. Get it wrong and you can look like the clapper in a bell!
and back to the original gist of the thread, if you struggle to say things without feeling that you may offend the woke masses maybe think of the old adage, if you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all.
we also seem to have the lost the ability as a society to disagree without being disagreeable.
Interesting that you should make the “chlorine” comment because stw has indeed been politically sterilised in recent years, there is little chance of seeing a comment in support of Boris Johnson, the Tories, Brexit, or anything else that offends middle-class liberal sensitivities.
We do have forum threads about Brexit and Boris Johnson. Those who posted in support of either tended to be the minority of people here who eschew evidence based decision making or who are fans of the tactical non-sequitur when their rationale has painted them into a corner.
We also have threads about Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer, with overtly critical posts. Some of those criticisms I agree with, despite me being a serial Labour voter of late.
Besides, we all agree to abide by certain rules when we sign up for the forum. It's not a playground and the moderators reserve the right to moderate as they see fit.
Forgive me for turning up to the forum in a short skirt. I must be asking for it.
If that's an attempt at humour it's piss-poor. Either that or it's a textbook example of pushing the boundaries of appropriateness for attention.
and yes, sign me up to the whole “I am proud to be woke” movement. Be Nice, even when the other person isn’t
I have a lot of sympathy for this view.
How anyone could take that line at face value I really do not know
"It was just a joke" - you say you pretended to be unpc (twice?), and don't understand what people assumed you aren't pc, and whine about it?
This is my point. You’re all falling over yourselves to be wokest of opinion, yet consider it acceptable to abuse actual people on this site.
Erm, grow some. Two entirely different things.
And...
Forgive me for turning up to the forum in a short skirt. I must be asking for it.
Good lord, weapons grade victimhood and lack of self awareness to boot.
STW isn’t sterilized, it’s robust
It has indeed been politically sterilised. If you feel it hasn't then I can only assume that you weren't around when Tory supporters would post their views on here with gay abandon.
I remember once making a critical comment concerning Boris Johnson when he was London Mayor, the reaction from Tory supporters on here was swift, can you imagine a similar situation today on the Boris Johnson thread??
The political cleansing has occurred through a climate of intolerance and hostility. Cougar's posts, to give one of the more extreme example, positively drip with anger, bitterness, and intolerance (at least binners makes his rants fun)
The few individuals to the right of the Guardian who remain, such as Mefty and big n daft, post very little and tend to make observational remarks rather than strong representations of what they believe. I only know of Mefty's support for the Tory Party because of what he posted years ago, not what he posts these days.
Obviously many people will be very happy with squeaky clean echo chamber. And why not? Nothing wrong with being in an environment with like-minded people. But I'm not sure what they think they might be getting out of it.
For me personally it provides a wonderful window into the mindset of middle-class liberals, I'm not sure where else I could experience that so vividly. I do indeed feel that I'm on safari 🙂
The brexit thread is a particularly good example. I have absolutely no idea what people who post on it think they are achieving - what is the point of expressing the same view everyday to people who agree with you anyway? Will it ever end? Or will it still be chugging along in 10 or 20 years time? I am strangely drawn to it though.
This is my point. You’re all falling over yourselves to be wokest of opinion, yet consider it acceptable to abuse actual people on this site.
There's a fair point hidden away there though. Like most, I CBA to engage in the contentious topics but blimey, when posted, are they swarmed over by the usual suspects. Genuinely, a pack animal approach to anyone that doesn't conform.
Those advocating tolerance can be the most intolerant of all!
This isn't restricted to here, obvz, but we definitely are on the far scale of the spectrum.
Anyhow, just my view. Carry on 🙂
comment because stw has indeed been politically sterilised in recent years, there is little chance of seeing a comment in support of Boris Johnson, the Tories, Brexit, or anything else that offends middle-class liberal sensitivities.
...And yet here you are, posting happily with no interference, no banning, no restrictions...odd. I can only assume that you align yourself with middle class liberal sensitivities, which I have to admit, comes as a shock.
And yet here you are, posting happily with no interference, no banning, no restrictions…
Well I've got you regularly on my case nick, so it's not all plain sailing.
And no, despite not being a Tory I am definitely not middle-class. And I have never considered myself to be particularly liberal, somehow marxist-lennist-liberal doesn't sound right. But in comparison to many on here I appear to be very much liberal, certainly far more tolerant than many.
I tend to agree with you to some extent. I still think the forum has a strong centre right / establishment bias but its a lot less than it was.
I have no tolerance for tories and racists. I don't apologise for that.
"No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin."
Never a truer word spoken. They are responsible for so much death and misery. Deliberately and directly they caused the impoverishment of millions while enriching themselves
Genuinely, a pack animal approach to anyone that doesn’t conform.
Those advocating tolerance can be the most intolerant of all!
It can certainly come across that way at times. I think some people are at a point of despair/desperation with the direction the country has taken that their default position is to overreact.
I still think the forum has a strong centre right / establishment bias
I think it’s left leaning, it’s just the right wing posts focus your attention and stick out amid the sea of centre/left commenters. You can probably name a lot of the right wing posters, but not all of the left, despite there being many. (I used to think the same as you, but some one with significantly more insight offered the above explanation.)
tom - I suspect many of those you see as centre left and see themselves as, I see as centre right. Its just the political centre has moved so far to the right in England. the labour party has not been a lefrt wing party for 30years
Definitely a left leaning forum (speaking as a left wing person)
I think some people are at a point of despair/desperation with the direction the country has taken that their default position is to overreact.
Guessing they must be young. I first became politically/socially aware from 1980 and the direction of the country was set then. They was a blip of hope around late 90's but the direction has remained over the 40 years as a whole. It seems more obvious now due to social media, Brexit vote and so on but it only briefly went in a good direction and we are now back at 1980's level with race and sex.
you see Kerley I would have you down as a centrist ( I think)
the only proper lefty on this forum is Ernie
the only proper lefty on this forum is Ernie
Aww *blushes*
You know I support brexit and hate political correctness dontcha?
I hate racism with every bone in my body though.
Wishy washy pale pink liberal then?
How can you hate a linguistic theory about not using prejudicial or pejorative descriptors for people?
Speaking correctly matters little to me. I make a big effort on here because I'm in polite company.
you see Kerley I would have you down as a centrist ( I think)
I have a very practical/realistic view of the lay of the land and what can be achieved within the UK today with the likes of Ernie being in what I see as the dreamer camp and where I was when I was much younger.
(although it is a dream I would want to live in given the choice - obviously not talking about real dreams here, I don't really want Ernie dreaming about me!).
Speaking correctly matters little to me. I make a big effort on here because I’m in polite company.
Surely tho you would not use prejudicial or pejorative descriptions of people?
Absolutely. Including the ginger-haired **** that I sometimes do work for.
You know I support brexit and hate political correctness dontcha?
I hate racism with every bone in my body though.
Not really. ‘Ginger’ as a pejorative epithet is (after all) one of the most politically-correct/acceptable racial/minority slurs?
So maybe you’re not as brave/radical/sticking-it-to-the-PC-Brigade as you’d like think? 😉
you say you pretended to be unpc (twice?), and don’t understand what people assumed you aren’t pc, and whine about it?
I’m not whining. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
If you really care about others, being nice to actual people on this forum will make more of a difference.
If someone says something stupid, disagree with it but don’t slag them off. Not everybody is gifted with the ability to express themselves clearly at all times, especially when tired, drunk or on the phone.
My methods might be obscure but the discussion has ended up in the right place. I agree with what Ernie said.
PS There was a homophobic comment earlier and nobody noticed. I guess we’re all part of one of society’s problems.
Pwned
Edit: *2
You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
Erm, that's just someone disagreeing with you.
So maybe you’re not as brave/radical/sticking-it-to-the-PC-Brigade as you’d like think? 😉
Well did say that I make a big effort on here due to being in the presence of polite company. Also in real life I throw a lot more ****s when expressing myself than I would ever do on here.
I'm very sensitive to people's sensitivities....... I'm that sort of guy. Can't you tell?
But yeah, anti-ginger is a form of racism which everyone can embrace - Reginald D. Hunter would agree with that.
Which is why I used it.
You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and (b) slag someone else off.
Aye, you can. Intolerance of intolerance is fine.
Also, no one says you don't have the right to express your opinion. No one is going to put you in jail if you express your opinion. That's all freedom of expression means.
Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. Getting slagged off for voicing an unpopular opinion is one of those consequences.
If your opinion wasn't bullshit you'd have no problems justifying it no matter how many people jumped in to slag you off. I think that's the problem if you voice bullshit opinions in an unsupportive environment.
Like someone said earlier, go to pistonheads if you want people to congratulate you for being so witty and clever.
I’m not whining. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. You can’t be a champion of rights and tolerance and then (a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and
You can express an contrary opinion - and if its nonsense you will be called out on it. I fully expect it.
make a controversial statement you will be asked to back it up. thats how debate works and not all opinions are equal.
tjagain
Full MemberI tend to agree with you to some extent. I still think the forum has a strong centre right / establishment bias but its a lot less than it was.
Was this a joke?
Nope - its how I see it. the political map in England has moved so far right thats how it comes out. I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre - cos thats where the party is.
I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre – cos thats where the party is.
it was under Blair, I don’t think anyone would accuse Corbin as been right of most people. Who knows about under starmer I don’t know what he really stands for yet
tjagain
Full MemberNope – its how I see it. the political map in England has moved so far right thats how it comes out. I see labour supporters as centrist or right of centre – cos thats where the party is.
Okay, fair enough - that's interesting. I'd consider myself to be a lefty, but personally find this forum to be very strongly left wing on the whole.
You can express an contrary opinion – and if its nonsense you will be called out on it. I fully expect it.
make a controversial statement you will be asked to back it up. thats how debate works and not all opinions are equal.
Yeah but in crispo's case the post was deleted by a mod. I can't remember exactly what it said as it was over 60 posts ago, but it went along the lines of "it was just an innocent compliment and should have been accepted as such".
IMO crispo's remark was definitely nonsense, a random stranger catcalling a female cyclist should never be dismissed as merely an innocent compliment, and that's quite apart from the fact that the comment was imo totally cringe inducing, who the **** comes out with bollox like that? It's like something Lee Nelson would say for comedic effect.
But was crispo's post offensive? I can't see how it could be classed as such. It seems to me that a mod deleted crispo's post because they didn't like the opinion it expressed, not because it was offensive.
Which is fine of course - as has been pointed out if you don't like it there's always pistonhead. What makes it weird is people claiming that you are free to express your opinion. What would be more appropriate would be to claim that you are free to express the correct opinion.
IMHO
it was under Blair, I don’t think anyone would accuse Corbin as been right of most people
Policy under corbyn would have been fine in a CDU ( german centre right party) manifesto. Nothing in it was out of the ordinary for european social democratic or centrist parties. Its a sign of how far right England ( and I do mean england) has moved that Corbyns moderate centerist manifesto was seen as radical and far left
I have never seen opinions deleted but I didn't see that post.
What makes it weird is people claiming that you are free to express your opinion.
It wasn’t his opinion though, he claims. It was a deliberately contrary opinion, one which was offensive to over half the country, which is trolling, which is against the rules.
He claimed it wasn't really his opinion after the post had been deleted.
I have no idea how a mod might have known that it wasn't really crispo's opinion.
But was crispo’s post offensive? I can’t see how it could be classed as such. It seems to me that a mod deleted crispo’s post because they didn’t like the opinion it expressed, not because it was offensive.
Yes it was deleted. I said a page or two back that I reported it, I don't remember exactly what it said now, but it was along the lines of 'it's not serious, it's just banter'. It, and also the first post / no comment clickbait-ey start touched a nerve that was a little raw after a conversation I'd had with my wife and 17yo daughter following the 'Everyone's Invited' story of last week.
I don't think I regret reporting but I did specifically say that I thought the mods should not delete it. I believe in freedom of expression, and also that the best way to expose a sexist or racist is by pouring sunlight, not bleach on their opinions. I wondered in my report if the better response would have been for one of STW's lady staffers to give their opinion on the 'just bantz'. If they were like DezB's partner, or the story I got from my daughter, I suspect they would not agree.
Sadly this poster has -> IMHO <- previous with borderline dogwhistle opinions on the Covid thread. Ambiguous enough to deny, and/or like this time employ the 'School debate' defence on. But sometimes I trust my instinct.
I might be wrong in which case I'd happily apologise. I have asked on both threads to explain where they really stand. But if they aren't genuine opinions then it's getting close to trolling, 'posting insincere / inflammatory messages with the intent of provoking'
FWIW and I hope I don't get in trouble here but the Mods message to me was:
we were aware of the thread and we’re keeping an eye on it, we’re not going to take the post down as the reaction of the other posters is a very good, condemning, one which is representative of the views of the mods and STW.
but then post was removed anyway including others that quoted it.
PS JonV: I have a lot of respect for you but I have actually made it clear where I stand in both cases.
I'm not clear. Instead of hiding it behind 'lots of people think like that' what do you think?
But sometimes I trust my instinct.
I reckon you are bang on.
I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was along the lines of, um, it was intended as just a bit of jokey bantz and a compliment to boot, so was hardly sexual harassment, and I’ve had worse myself and not been bothered.
I will probably be banned for repeating that, but have done so because I really don’t think it’s offensive or misogynistic.
You really need to read up and learn a bit about this stuff then because i can assure you that comment is both offensive and misogynistic
Its not jokey bantz. Its offensive behaviour. Its not a compliment - its about power
If you are interested in learning about this stuff then I have some good suggestions of books to read.
But let me assure you once again - that comment is both offensive and misogynistic
Educate, convince. Don’t condemn, mock.
That I can agree with, and there maybe should be more of it from some on here.
But you go about it in such a clumsy way.
Sorry, I'm... *cough* a little behind.
I suspect that the reference was to other stuff.
Fair enough, I missed that. Sorry.
Such as you referring to people who use the term “woke” of being “right-wing fascist”.
That's not abuse, it's a statement of fact. No-one uses 'woke' as an insult unless (as someone else already posted) they're trying to shut down awareness.
Interesting that you should make the “chlorine” comment because stw has indeed been politically sterilised in recent years,
No it hasn't. But we've seen this movie before haven't we.
If you feel it hasn’t then I can only assume that you weren’t around when Tory supporters would post their views on here with gay abandon.
There's nothing stopping them from doing that still.
Do you want them to do be able to that without allowing a reply from the rest of the userbase? There's plenty of other places they can do that, write in to the Express. If the argument is "I can't state my opinion because it'll be unpopular" then well cry me a river, why do you think that might be?
People have been removed for being disruptive. No-one has ever been removed for their (legal) political beliefs. Ever.
Cougar’s posts, to give one of the more extreme example, positively drip with anger, bitterness, and intolerance
I'm intolerant of bigots. I'm also intolerant of people who present nonsense as fact without backing up their claims and (like a lot of people on here) will challenge that. Bitter, maybe a little, I'm getting to the age where it's appropriate to shout at clouds. Angry, not even remotely, don't flatter yourselves.
I only know of Mefty’s support for the Tory Party because of what he posted years ago, not what he posts these days.
Funny how I ping on your radar and Mefty doesn't. I'm -terrible- at keeping track of usernames and I'm well aware of Mefty's particular political leanings, they're pretty prolific.
Genuinely, a pack animal approach to anyone that doesn’t conform.
Or alternatively, unpopular opinions aren't popular, film at 11. What do you want here, are you complaining that we have insufficient racists on the forum?
Christ almighty.
(a) deny people the right to express a contrary opinion and
Which hasn't happened.
(b) slag someone else off.
Which is probably deserved. Snowflake.
You have the right on the STW forum to express an opinion, so long as it remains within the law. You do not have the right to express an opinion unchallenged. If you're going to talk shit then the moderators aren't going to protect you, that's on you, that's the freedom of speech that's seemingly so precious.
‘it’s not serious, it’s just banter’
Another battle cry that should be on the list.
Here's the thing. It's only 'bants' if the target is a friend who has afforded you that privilege. Otherwise, it's not banter, it's bullying. If I punched you in the face and then yelled "only joking!" would that be OK?
one which is representative of the views of the mods and STW.
Careful now.
The only people who can say what's representative of "the mods'" views is each individual moderator, and the only person who can represent the views of STW is Mark. Well, maybe Chipps or other staff. But sweeping statements like that hold no water.
I was a moderator here for a decade and the only entity I ever felt that I had any rights to represent the views of was me. And trust me, the moderation team have had some wildly differing, uh, differences of opinion over the years both over moderation decisions and as mere forum users. I once tried to ban myself, turned out I cannot self-terminate, which was a shame because I really wanted to tell someone they were a **** and was prepared to take the hit of a fortnight off to do so.
But anyway. You cannot lay any perceived political leanings within the forum on its owners and volunteers (outside of the excision of a handful of toxic shitbags) anywhere else other than the people who contribute to it. (Aside from the old Daily Mail link redirect, which was only ever
really meant as a laugh anyway as far as I can tell.)
As an aside: I think I'm going to try and reclaim the use of "snowflake" to throw back at *-ist tossbags who don't like being called *-ist tossbags. There's a bit of a delicious irony here.
Maybe Ernie was right after all. I'm so very very tired of other people's shit. If you're going to jump into a debate then you're choosing to get into that arena. If however you're merely riding a bike down a road minding your own business and you get your arse slapped for no other reason than "having an arse" then yeah, that does make me a bit cross.
I really wanted to tell someone they were a **** and was prepared to take the hit of a fortnight off to do so.
Why the need to tell someone that they are a ****? As far as I can recall I have never felt need to do that on stw.
Yup, angry, bitter, and intolerant, is a fair comment I reckon, despite your claim that you are not even "remotely" angry - going around wanting to call people a **** suggests that you are.
Well, it was that or ban them and then be accused of bias.
Ironically.
I can't remember the circumstance now, it was several years ago and I hadn't been here all that long. It might've been rampant misogyny? Maybe. I was a bit cross though, to be fair.
Yup, angry, bitter, and intolerant, is a fair comment I reckon,
Is it? What do other readers think?
Am I that devoid of introspection? Gosh.
Is it? What do other readers think?
If you are interested it is how you have been coming across for a while now. I thought quitting as a mod might help you relax but I can't say I've noticed that happening. That's meant constructively. Its only a middle class chat forum, no harm done.
Is it? What do other readers think?
I'd say more impatient when the same old shit gets posted.
On this thread though, absolutely spot on.
Is it? What do other readers think?
As you asked....
I think towards of your long and excellent service as a mod, you came across as though you were getting fed up being polite and respectful when dealing with the idiots. Like most people who deal with the public, in any context really.
Now you don't have to worry about your personal views being construed as the views of STW, you seem to sometimes be making up for lost time. 😉
The last 5 years have polarised a lot of opinions on here, I've seen a shift in long term posters getting more impatient and testy with people they disagree with. I'm guilty of it as well. Maybe it's an age thing. Sometimes I've been on the receiving end, sometimes I've dished it out, sometimes I've thought "**** it", let rip and waited for a ban.
Why the need to tell someone that they are a ****?
I have, more than a few times, I've been banned each time, which doesn't bother me really. If someone write something that I wouldn't let pass in real life I won't let it pass here.
I’ve seen a shift in long term posters getting more impatient and testy with people they disagree with
It is similar to having a good discussion and then that person comes along who you really don't like, have had many annoying 'debates' with in the past and can't be bothered with them anymore.
On a forum you have the choice to ignore them or get sucked in which will add to the frustration and probably make you a bit angry.
I ignore quite a few people on this forum and it works for me, just as many people probably ignore me. Could have a block user feature to help but that just leads to confusing threads as you see replies to posts that you didn't originally see.
Good thread, it demonstrates that there's been a change in society and attitudes over the past decade or so. The casual sexism on STW going back to hack period days was not good. Some people must be very pleased the hack removed a chunk of their contributions. Some people have disappeared and returned with a new pseudo (without a ban AFAIK) perhaps divorcing themselves from earlier views.
If anyone is worried about becoming less tolerant or even angry then just make the check "am I on the side of right and good?", because it takes getting angry and being intollerant of the unacceptable to erradicate it.
Going back to just post hack I got a ban for being abusive towards a member. The "abuse" was linking three of his own threads about his relation with his other half and suggesting he could be the problem not her. I'd been following the saga and drawn my conclusions. I'm absolutely certain that attitudes have changed and I wouldn't be the only one making the point these days and I'm equally sure such a point wouldn't result in outrage, reports and a ban.
Progress.
one which is representative of the views of the mods and STW.
Careful now.
The only people who can say what’s representative of “the mods'” views is each individual moderator, and the only person who can represent the views of STW is Mark. Well, maybe Chipps or other staff. But sweeping statements like that hold no water.
To be clear that's a direct quote from the email they sent me, 'Signed' by The Moderators, and it was written 'we are aware', 'we are keeping an eye on it'
I'm not saying it, and I think I get your point that the mods don't always agree, but I don't personally think there would be much ambiguity over the views of the mods / STW on this issue. Maybe on how to respond, but not the issue.
If someone write something that I wouldn’t let pass in real life I won’t let it pass here.
I've only lost it very rarely when it's been personal abuse aimed directly at me. Strangely never been banned but posts have been deleted, possibly as I had been provoked? Not sure how it works.
I've been on here 17-18 years now. I've changed, the forum has changed, society has changed. Jokes and comments the younger me may have made would be unacceptable now, and I see that as progress, as a society and personally. Not sure I'm fully "woke" yet, but I'm at least semi-conscious. 🤷♂️
I’ve only lost it very rarely when it’s been personal abuse aimed directly at me. Strangely never been banned but posts have been deleted, possibly as I had been provoked? Not sure how it works
I don't "lose it" but do have a say it like it is policy on life. I guess I have done it enough times to have my cards marked, which is fair enough.
I find cougars contributions funny and passionate ie he feels strongly about things. I respect that but then I generally agree with him
The casual msexism that was tolerated and encouraged on here has largely gone and I guess some folk don't like that. tough.
I used to find the sexism on here very annoying ( hence my sabotage of the leering threads)
When I have been moderated on here I have generally deserved it
Yup, angry, bitter, and intolerant, is a fair comment I reckon,
I'd say there's a world weariness, of "here we go again" rather than bitter and intolerant. I don't think this forum is intolerant, I'd characterise it as pedantic, and there are any faults, it's that too many users are too keen to use other's posts as evidence to attack them rather than to listen to other's views or opinions. Throw into that mix those posters who aren't interested in honest debate, rather are just interested in their own self satisfaction and sanctimony, it's really up to the users how the forum is used.
Stupid shit like racism or sexism shouldn't be tolerated of course though, that should rightly be closed down.
I’d say there’s a world weariness, of “here we go again” rather than bitter and intolerant.
I'd agree with that, I like @Cougar 's contributions. I remember a long running thread about a guy getting upset with the cost of maintaining his bike and frequency of repairs needed - he'd had offers of help, supportive advice etc which were all ignored or shot down and eventually Cougar just told him to stop whining about it. It was that eventual "you know what, we've tried to be nice but bollocks to it" which I think is here too.
People have tried to explain why the comments are inappropriate. It's been ignored, doubled down on so yeah, it's going to get called out!
@Cougar - I think your posts since ceasing to be a moderator have been more a reflection of you not having to wear the twin hats of forum user and STW "representative" so the contrast seems stark.
I've been pulled up for (unintended) mistakes, the temptation is to fight back but a walk away from the keyboard puts things into perspective, it's really only my ego that's being bruised. Generally I'll only post something that I'm prepared to say to someone's face.
The forum being "left wing"? Hmm, might not be if those with alternative views who pop up on here had evidence to support their claims otherwise they just appear as mischievous trolls only to disappear when the spotlight is turned up on them. Come on here with views/claims (from whichever side of the political spectrum) that can be backed up and I'll listen otherwise you are just a timewaster.
Don't think sexual harassment is restricted to the road or workplace, here's a thread about lone females in bothies - https://bearbonesbikepacking.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19450
I remember a long running thread about a guy getting upset with the cost of maintaining his bike and frequency of repairs needed – he’d had offers of help, supportive advice etc which were all ignored or shot down and eventually Cougar just told him to stop whining about it. It was that eventual “you know what, we’ve tried to be nice but bollocks to it” which I think is here too.
I often wonder if some of the forum software needs updating so that 'what do others think' is autoreplaced by 'please tell me you agree with me'
At least we are in agreement that woman on bicycles should not have to have their bottoms pinched (even by well known soap actors - which is what happened to me), should not have male taxi drivers getting out of their cars and shouting sexist abuse (ending in the word LOVE), with male passengers all laughing, after he'd cut me up (I'd screamed), should not have to have drivers picking on the lone woman at the back of a long line of male mtbikers slightly holding up their car, because the driver was too scared to pick on any of the burly riders ahead. The list goes on.
And if you think it's bad being a female on a bike, then try riding a horse. The sexual nature of abuse while out hacking was unbelievable.
My only complaint about how things are moderated here is that dog whistle racism, sexism, and homophobia is allowed to stand. I think people who hold these views have perfected the art of expressing these views in such a way that they have plausible deniability.
I have the view that once or twice can be a mistake or oversight. When you see that almost every one of their posts has some 'joke' or borderline remark then you can safely assume they are bigoted arseholes.
When you tell them exactly what you think of them you will get a warning and most likely a ban.
Like I always say, the mtb community is actually quite small and there's always a chance you'll run into folk from here in real life. I think the dog whistlers should bear that in mind.
I would agree Bruce but its challenged and less prevalent than it was. when I first came on this forum there were regular threads to leer at young womens bodies. No more. thats progress
Thank you all for your candour. It's genuinely appreciated and I'll give it some thought.
On moderation and censorship: we've got half the contributors here complaining about people being censored and the forum becoming an echo chamber, and the other half complaining about disagreeable views being allowed to go unchallenged. To my mind these states are mutually exclusive so I'd perhaps ask: what would you have the moderation team do differently? We can't have it both ways, we cannot simultaneously cry for more moderation and less moderation, that's a nonsense.
I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was along the lines of, um, it was intended as just a bit of jokey bantz and a compliment to boot, so was hardly sexual harassment, and I’ve had worse myself and not been bothered.
A good test is would you say it, out loud, to your mum / Grandma (or daughter, but most people with daughters have realised just how horrible it is). If you wouldn't say it to your mum, don't say it to anyone you don't know.
Others have put it more eloquently than I ever could but, have whatever opinions you want, just don’t expect others to share them. That goes for everything on any subject matter. If you’re opinion is extreme, out of step with the majority or from a place of ignorance then expect to have it challenged, sometimes robustly. If you don’t like it, tough shit.
Cougar, I honestly love your contributions to the forum and you’re bound to let off steam after having to temper your responses in the past due to your position. That being said I’ve noticed a bit of an entrenched viewpoint from you in a couple of threads recently. A bit of a ‘This is how you should see it’ approach. Historically you seemed more flexible. Ha! You can’t ban me so I might as well go for broke. Something, something, Vegans and bacon
I once got a months ban on here for quoting Ronnie Pickering
I once got a ban for telling the most offensive joke I know. Trouble is I actually learnt the joke on here.
Something, something, Vegans and bacon
Bastard. (-:
Some things I think are immutable. Like, if someone is being racist then I reject absolutely "well, for balance maybe we should hear what the racist has to say..." If we're discussing real people who are affected day-to-day from other people's casual cruelty then I'm going to throw a stake in the ground. This is a hill I will choose to die on. Sometimes people have unpopular opinions, sometimes they're just plain wrong.
If you're referring to something else then I'm not sure what that is, but I'll try to be a little more self-aware. Thank you.
I once got a months ban on here for quoting Ronnie Pickering
In isolation? No you didn't.
Wait, no. "I find that highly unlikely."
Is that better? I think I've grown as a person.
The whole "cancel culture" thing can just do one.
Basically its a load of people with formerly acceptable views that now find themselves on the wrong side of social progress. Just because I choose to disagree with whatever outdated shit you come out with doesn't me you are being "cancelled". If everyone else disagree with it as well, then that's because you espouse shitty out dated views that are now being challenged.
You have the right to free speech, you don't have the right to acquiescence, agreement or indeed an audience.
And honestly people on social media who claim they are being "censored" while on ****ing social media need to fired into the Sun.
we’ve got half the contributors here complaining about people being censored and the forum becoming an echo chamber
I don't think it's censorship that's the primary reason for the echo chamber effect, I think it's a general hostile and intolerant attitude by those who post on political and social issue threads towards those who don't share a stance which fits in nicely with Guardian editorials.
As I have said previously there is nothing imo inherently wrong with wanting to spend time with like-minded people. Although for me personally it's the fact that I am not necessarily with like-minded people which I find reasonably interesting.
And if you doubt that stw has been politically cleansed just take a look at the Starmer thread, over 4 hours ago I posted a post attacking Thatcher's economic and social policies, so far not one single person has come to her defence.
A few years back that would have got an immediate reaction, quite possibly within seconds, as the Tory fan club rushed to defend her.
I don't think the fact that stw has been politically sterilised is in doubt the only question imo is how has this come about.
Of course none of this has anything to do with the fact that a random stranger harassing, for their own entertainment, someone cycling, is completely unacceptable.
For a man cycling the attitude of a small minority of drivers can be both a pain in the arse and intimidating. We all feel vulnerable sometimes on our minimalist form of transport. I have always worked on the assumption that every driver is a potential psychopath who doesn't care if he/she kills me. I can see the advantages of being a white male though.
I think it’s a general hostile and intolerant attitude by those who post on political and social issue threads towards those who don’t share a stance which fits in nicely with Guardian editorials.
Some of those who post
There are plenty who are perfectly prepared to debate in an appropriate way and listen and learn as well as try to convince.....but like everywhere the loudest and most abusive are the ones that stand out.
@cougar FWIW I don't think you're angry so much as just sick of dickheads. You come across as a good guy albeit one that's not going to suffer idiots with a smile because you have to, and why should you? . You do you, just don't let them get a rise from you.
I don’t think it’s censorship that’s the primary reason for the echo chamber effect, I think it’s a general hostile and intolerant attitude by those who post on political and social issue threads towards those who don’t share a stance which fits in nicely with Guardian editorials.
So what's your solution, STW pays for some advertising in the Daily Express? Maybe drag in some fresh young blood from a EDL march? The general complaint here as far as I can see is "there isn't enough unpleasant people on this forum any more."
over 4 hours ago I posted a post attacking Thatcher’s economic and social policies, so far not one single person has come to her defence.
To be fair, it is half 10 at night.
But is this not a weird argument in itself? Have I misunderstood something? In your previous paragraph you were stating that STW isn't generally aligned with your beliefs, "it’s the fact that I am not necessarily with like-minded people which I find reasonably interesting", and in the next you're complaining that you -aren't- being challenged? These are surely at odds unless you're trolling for a reaction or to try and prove a point (or I've catastrophically misread). Which is it?
I don’t think the fact that stw has been politically sterilised
This is not a fact at all, it is merely your opinion and presenting it as a fact is a strawman. Your accusation implies some sort of wilful intent or master plan and I've already explained this once on (I think?) this very thread.
The moderators operate largely autonomously, the only mandate I ever received from the site owners during my entire tenure was "please don't publicly slag off the business." We were categorically never given any political steer, the flavour of the forum is 99.999% on the userbase. There is no agenda, such a thing doesn't exist however much some might like to believe it does, as a moderator I was winging it and basically making it up for ten years and the others still are.
No forum user was ever censored for their political opinions unless they broke the law or were being outrageously offensive. If it were established STW practice to quell such opinion then a) I'd have banned a shitload more people, likely yourself included (and probably me as well) yet here you are complaining about moderator bias and with no recognition of irony that you have free rein to do so, and b) this then wouldn't be a forum I'd want to be any part of any more because look up 'forum' in a dictionary, it doesn't say "a big room where everyone agrees with each other and heretics are thrown to the lions".
This is something I've argued vociferously about, we have to be impartial. And we are. And you know what, Internet squabbles and my own demons aside I'm proud of that, we worked very hard for it and I think we got somewhere. I mean, we had to, right? The suggestion that "the STW forum has something something censorship something left wing right wing Guardian echo chamber" is somewhere between a hopefully innocent misunderstanding and an outright lie for propaganda / point-scoring purposes, and I'm almost offended. STW's moderation team has fought hard to make this humble little corner of the web a better place.
Beyond a few excised bad eggs that I can count on the fingers of one hand, any perceived "sterilisation" has been self-policed as people have realised that unpopular opinions are unpopular. To them I say, the sea is that way ➡ and say hi to PH on your way past.
not going to suffer idiots with a smile
Y'know, that's probably the problem.
I do suffer idiots with a smile, my downfall perhaps is that I often forget to include the smile. I assume people realise this when they don't.
don’t let them get a rise from you.
Members like Ernie, I'm happy to drop the gloves and for them to do likewise with me because we've been around the block with each other, we're old sparring partners and both understand the terms of engagement. Uh, I hope?! For all the public pseudo-arguments I'd happily go for a pint with them, I'd relish it in fact.
I think however that I need to recognise that other people exist who aren't like Ernie and lack that history.
Personal opinion:
I make no secret of the fact that I hate tories.
But I'm happy to discuss anything with anyone, provided it's actually a discussion and points raised are accepted and addressed on both sides.
I remember the 'old days' on here when an opposing opinion would lead to intimations of violence.
In fact, I think my second or third ever post made Ernie react in that manner. 🙂
I've never been banned, or threatened with a ban, although I have had posts removed (And rightly so. I suggested the world would be a better place if all tories were hanged from lamp posts. Sorry about that).
We've all moved on, for the better I hope.
I kinda think that about 'people' sometimes. Too much time and not enough ****ing lamp-posts.