[Closed] BBC Cold War season

Yee haaa! One for iPlayer.
Used to have a lodger from Upper Heyford and one from Craughton.
Lots of beer related interest.
I used to commute to the magazine via Heyford and when Dessert Storm was served up they closwed the pub
Road through the base until tjhw legality of this was questioned. The next day my van of toys and I went through with me in full Arabic dress courteswy of test trips put to the Sinai /over the last ten years.

I think this may be worth paying my subscription to my proxy so I can watch I player this month ...

Unless anyone has a means of sharing the episodes?

Uktv everywhere, works brilliantly @zokes, pm me 🙂

Zokes, they will most likely be on pirate day in a few days.

Brilliant show. Can't wait for next week.

Infact its already on there - downloading it now 🙂

Thanking you. Is there a BBC website with at least the names and an overview of each episode? Might make it easier to prod the more nefarious/liberal corners of the internet in the right direction if I know the correct search terms!

zokes - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01jtngj/features/about ][/url]

Bit OT, but the Vulcan is on bombing the Falklands 1600(now) More4

You guys should look into doing the tour of Upper Heyford.
A mate did it, loads of great stuff, the highlights being, a state of alert light that indicates total global annihilation, as well as nuclear bombs listed on the wall. They always swore there were no nukes.

I grew up less than ten miles away. F1-11s were a multi-flight a day occurrence. Boy they were loud!

Used to see lots of Hercs and very rarely the rumble of a flying fortress. Especially the night they flew to bomb Libya.

Local farmer painted a CND symbol on the roof of one of his barns 🙂

Used to see lots of Hercs and very rarely the rumble of a flying fortress. Especially the night they flew to bomb Libya.

flying fortress. eh?

I assume that's a B52 (but could be a B1)

I watched the cold war jets last night, amazing seeing those 1950's planes batting about. Would love a go in a Jet Provost, and the Comet, wow how beautiful. Looking forward to the next installment with the V-bombers, the USSR long range bombers and I assume the interceptors...

Would love a go in a Jet Provost

My father flew JPs for many a year. My lottery winning shed will have a JP in it. A working one, too.

Two seater, perfect for a weekend getaway plane! 🙂

Tonight looks good - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hy7k8
Red Dawn

Historian Dominic Sandbrook takes us back to the strange years of the Cold War. For Sandbrook these are the years in which we were both more secure and prosperous that we had ever been - and at the same time, lived everyday with the very real possibility of nuclear annihilation. This is not just a story of the superpower arms race or daring spies, real and fictional, it is a story in which all we played a crucial part.

In the first episode, Dominic brings his trademark mix of great archive and surprising storytelling to the first chilling years of the conflict, when we realised our democracy was facing a new totalitarian enemy: Soviet communism.

excellent programme.

Used to see lots of Hercs and very rarely the rumble of a flying fortress. Especially the night they flew to bomb Libya

Really?

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http://www.boeing.com/boeing/history/boeing/b17.page

maybe you meant the stratofortess aka B52?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress

Always loved them since being totally awed and dwarfed by the one at Duxford as a 12yr old.

Or, as my post above says 😉

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer

I watched Apocalypse Now sitting under the wing of Duxford's B52 ... It was a Stella "Screen" Artois promotional thingy…. Really was a very good night, had an interval half way through the rather long film for hot dogs and bottles of Stella as we wonder around the museum for 20min looking at all the aircraft that were in the movie … Phatoms, Hueys etc

Anyone else get a sense from that program Friday night, that it was the US that were the aggressors in the cold war… certainly in the spook plane dept anyway…. Guessing the Russian used cheap people on the ground as opposed to expensive planes… (see earlier posts)

Tiny, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that the B52 at least uses the word 'Fortress' in the name... We used upper heyford all the time at work, I've spun a V6 Carlton on the main runway 😀

It was the F111s that went to Libya, not the B52s or B1s, or even B17s

The Wrong Trousers is correct - F111's did the Libyan raid in 86(?)

There's something missing from this thread...

Fixed it...

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Yay!

*toasts his marshmallows on the afterburner*

Upper heyford [i]was[/i] an F1-11 base before it became storage for unsold cars... The hardened shelters are quite funky and I think much of it has listed status which has controlled residential redevelopment.

Didn't understand from the program why the Americans had to use British pilots for some of the spy plane flights, and why the British took the duty on.

the brits got to kiss ass by providing some sort of deniability to the yanks. i'm sure we also got some nice photos out of it.

Presumably those U2s piloted by the RAF still carried US markings and not RAF markings, like those RB45s did ?
Not so easily deniable for the US if that was the case.
The U2s were actually a CIA asset at the time rather than USAF. All of the US pilots were actually CIA too (officially).

This was in the era where the US didn't trust the UK, they had taken all of their (nuclear) toys away after a succession of spy scandals in the UK had resulted in all of the secrets crossing the iron curtain. The UK were desparate to get back in the US' good books, so I suspect there was plenty of ass-kissing opportunities that weren't overlooked.

RAF markings IIRC and they obviously trusted us enough to play with one of their very secret toys.

Looks like they removed the stars and stripes stickers... 😉
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Still don't understand why the Americans didn't want to fly their own planes. Presumably they were more concerned about the potential loss of technology than a dead American pilot so don't understand what they gained by putting an Englander in the cockpit.

No, they weren't black in the 60s, that was applied later. I believe they were left in polished aluminium. That photo is much more recent.

And they used to have USAF markings and 'Stars and Bars'

just read a wee bit more about it, effectively Eisenhower was getting more nervous about it and the CIA managed to sidestep the issue of getting his permission for overflights by employing brit pilots and then getting MacMillan to approve them.

prob just as much for deniability to his own side if anything happened.

as a sidenote these planes where anything but secret to the USSR they could see them clearly just couldn't reach out and touch them for a while at least, the US is happy to release pretty much all of the U2 material but the UK is blocking most of it and refusing to comment.

Lightning's are bonkers things.
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“Test pilot George Aird ejected from his English Electric Lightning F1 aircraft at a fantastically low altitude in Hatfield, Hertfordshire.

“George was a test pilot with the De Havilland Aircraft. He was on finals for an emergency landing following a fire about 15 miles from Hatfield. At about 10 seconds from touchdown, at about 100 ft, the aircraft suddenly pitched nose up and, since there was no response to the controls, he ejected. The aircraft crashed on the airfield, broke up and caught fire.”

Pah, RAF use of the U2 - just a PR exercise because they didn't want to give away the max altitude of the mighty Canberra 😉

Ohh, now having some great fun...As well as Vulcan's at Grandad's house at the end of Waddington runway, I also remember a holiday in Suffolk as a kid, with these things going over at tree height. Not a 'cool' plane, but amazing things.
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And can I go on to a favourite? Mainly because one had a problem and landed in the fields behind our house in Cumbria, on way into Warcop ranges...and then took off again after they fixed the thing. 8)
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PJM, see page two for the most orsum Lightning pictue you may ever see!

Awesome planes.

The Phantom ? NOT cool ??
I'm sorry Sir, but I'm going to need to ask you to step outside
🙂

Indeed. Phantoms are cooler than a penguin's pantry.
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*switches on tele*
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😆

Not jets tonight, Matt. A more general look at the early days of the Cold War.

Still looking forward to it.

It wasn't the most inspiring of programmes tonight, good enough to understand the background of communism in the upper ranks of the Uk, but no toys, just humans. 😐

The programme tonight was pretty poor despite having some good archive footage - it was just so disjointed and lacking substance.

[i]The programme tonight was pretty poor despite having some good archive footage - it was just so disjointed and lacking substance.[/i]

Which is why I loathe 'critics'

I enjoyed it.

The F4 Phantom was probably THE coolest plane ever to grace the skies.

I thought last night was pretty good as a scene setter. I didn't really know too much about the Dynamo tour before, so that was certainly interesting.

The Cold War wasn't just about teh orsum planes, boats etc. There were people involved, too, you know! 😉

That Lightning picture with the pilot ejecting was in last months "Tractor & Machinery" magazine.

The Phantom flying pretty low:

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Afterburners on too 😉

Careful, they work at the desk next to you....
Great scene setter last night.

And have we done the SR-71 yet?

Ben, from PPrune;

The Home of the Phantomeers ( http://www.phantomreunion.talktalk.net/lowfly.htm)

Traditionally, on leaving overhaul at Saint Athan, aircraft would do a fly-by for the benefit of the groundcrew who had worked on it. The pilot of this particular Phantom FG1, a retiring Wing Commander, was chatting to a member of the ground crew the day before the departure flight. He said he was going to fly between the hangars and that the guy should be ready with a camera to record the event. It was due to be his last flight, so he was going to do something 'special'. The groundcrew weren't too convinced of the pilot's claim, but stood around as usual anyway watching as the F4 took off, destination Leuchars. As the photo shows, the pilot was not joking, you can see the afterburner diamonds quite clearly in front of the hangar. You can also see personnel standing underneath it. The recently tuned Speys allegedly shook a man working in the roof of one of the hangars enough for him to fall and break his leg. These hangars are set east to west, about 75 yards apart, and you can estimate the height from the length of the Phantom. Immediately after the event, the pilot was contacted by the tower and was instructed in no uncertain terms to 'return and land immediately'. As I am told, he did so and was given a severe rollicking. I don't know what action was taken, but it was his last flight in any case. What a way to go out, I wonder if it ranks as one of the shortest logged emergency-free Phantom flights?
This story is not exaggerated - I don't know the original photographer, but the picture was taken on an ordinary instamatic camera, and then a blow-up was made. The original is, as a favour, temporarily in the possession of the current Station Commander at St Athan who is an ex-F4 jockey. From the enlargement I have made the Phantom as XV575. The aircraft was scrapped in September 1991, but its legacy has to be this photograph.

Dominic Sandbrook is a very annoying presenter. The constant exaggerated facial expressions really peed me off!

It did seem a bit disjointed a random as well.

Still worth watching mind.

The U2s were actually a CIA asset at the time rather than USAF. All of the US pilots were actually CIA too (officially).

I thought it went even further than that and officially they worked for Lockheed on some weather-related missions?

Yeah, maybe it was the presenter.. If Lucy Worsley was narrating it would have been muuuuch better. 😉

Funny how they used to equate being Gay and Upper Class to being a Communist. Seem to have been a lot of Bong Pipes and booze around when citing Political Theory..

Students hey.. 🙄

Funny how they used to equate being Gay and Upper Class to being a Communist

Think it was more just looking at anyone who was considered a "wrong 'un' in one way being obviously a "wrong 'un" in any number of other ways. So, in the thinking of the day, of course left footers would be left footers. If you see what I mean!

They were still flying U2's out of Akrotiri in Cyprus when I was there a few years ago. US air crew though I think.

They were never spoke about at all despite the noise they made at take off, I have heard an aircraft make a noise like it!

Yes, I saw that description of the F4 flypast - I'm not surprised he was given a stern talking-to 😉

Think it was more just looking at anyone who was considered a "wrong 'un' in one way being obviously a "wrong 'un" in any number of other ways. So, in the thinking of the day, of course left footers would be left footers. If you see what I mean!

There was also a big element of anyone in a position with access to sensitive information being 'open to blackmail' given that homosexuality was still illegal, and to many shameful, at the time.

There was also a big element of anyone in a position with access to sensitive information being 'open to blackmail' given that homosexuality was still illegal, and to many shameful, at the time.

Very true. In fact, I think this may well [i]still[/i] be true. There are myriad rumours about certain senior politicians in the UK at the moment. OK, so there's no element of illegality nowadays, but the fact that someone in a position of power might want to keep it secret leaves them open to that very same blackmail potential.

A good example from then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vassall

CFH - I think that if you viewed some of the more recent rumours along an 'operation yewtree' line of enquiry, you could very much see the potential for blackmail...

But, but does being Gay and in the "service" of HMtQ really mean you are open to Blackmail, nowadays?? That doesn't seem to me to be a big deal. As for the Yewtree investigations, incriminations, finger pointing then yes, yes I can see that being a route for potential blackmail.. but would that ever get out?

As said, some good background knowledge there but I am looking forward to the next programme.

Bikebuoy - I think that if you have someone who is openly gay, then its clearly not a problem - it would clearly be much more of a problem if someone were keeping it secret from their wife and/or family.

Its worth commenting that the security services at the time very much prevented homosexuality being an absolute bar from service in a vetted post (as it was in Canada for example) and that the head of the department was able to make the call if in all the circumstances he felt there was no risk to security.

Regards Yewtree - its obviously hard to tell, there have been enough rumours about various politicians and people in power over the years that we'll probably never know the truth - there's certainly a lot of potential for all sorts of honeytraps and secretive goings on to have occurred, Elm guest house anyone?

if you have someone who is openly gay, then its clearly not a problem - it would clearly be much more of a problem if someone were keeping it secret from their wife and/or family

Agreed. It's the 'keeping it secret' rather than the actuality of being gay that's the issue here. Any time someone needs to keep something secret, there's potential for someone to hold that secret over them as pressure.

The higher the position, and the deeper the secret (or lie, depending on how you choose to view it), the greater the pressure.

Just watching "strange days" now. Not withstanding his WWII achievements, Churchill was a bit of an arse, wasn't he?

Phantoms are cool, but RAF Phanotoms were cooler as they were re-engined with Rolls-Royce Avons, a far better powerplant than the US engines the others had.

The U2 was actually a re-winged F4 Starfghter and something the Skunkworks knocked up in a hurry, the later U2's had the stretched and more bulbous noses and I thought the black paint on the later aircraft was a radar absorbant paint?

Tomorrow, Friday 15th at 2100

As an 'Iron Curtain' fell across Europe, the jet bomber came to define how the Cold War was fought. Able to fly faster, higher and further than ever before, and armed with a devastating new weapon, Britain's V Force became the platform for delivering nuclear armageddon.

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Love this picture! It captures that strange mix of glamour and threat that only that period of history could conjure up! Streamlined, elegant things, designed to kill. Mad period of history.

^^^ ohhh good call Sir.

This is THE one.

How to deliver a bucket of sunshine to the Commies!

Churchill was a bit of an arse, wasn't he?

Churchill was terrified of global communism and of Stalin.

Churchill wanted to attack the USSR in 1945. His argument was that we would of had to fight them at some point and we had all gear in Europe ready to go. The US also had nukes which is an obvious massive advantage.

However, the whole world was obviously very tired of war and nobody else was interested.

Phantoms are cool, but RAF Phanotoms were cooler as they were re-engined with Rolls-Royce Avons, a far better powerplant than the US engines the others had.

They were Rolls-Royce Speys, an engine not originally designed for a military Mach 2 aircraft. On paper, the Spey was a better bet than the American, J79 and was a political sop to secure British aviation jobs in the face of a significant foreign order for jets. British Phantoms also had UK designed avionics and BAe SkyFlash missiles too.

In reality, British Phantoms were slightly slower and thirstier than US versions, because the redesigned rear fuselage caused greater drag. In 1982 after the Falklands conflict, the RAF received a number of US spec Phantoms (F4J I believe) complete with J79 engines and US avionics, many were based on the Falklands themselves as a deterrent to Argentina.

Ah yes, I got my engines mixed up, but I thought they were better subsonic? and let's face it, these old crates were very limited at supersonic speeds and would have only spent short bursts at supersonic speeds and would struggle to hit Mach 2 let alone sustain it with external fuel tanks and ordinance fitted?

Saw this production line/factory floor photo for the first time today and had to share:

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I've just been reading about the RAF Phantoms, the Spey engine was one of Rolls Royce's poorer designs plus when fitted to the Phantom gave sub Mach 2 top speed due to the 20% larger intakes causing more drag. Serviceability initially was very poor, infact we struggled to keep up with up with our NATO commitments because of it.
The Spey originally took around five seconds to get into re-heat whereas the J79 took less than 2, a big difference when you are in trouble!
Pilots preferred the Lightning but the Phantom had better range and greater weapons capacity.
Have a read of "Phantom from the Cockpit - Flying the Legend" by Peter Caygill (99p on Amazon for the Kindle version)

Ah yes, I got my engines mixed up, but I thought they were better subsonic? and let's face it, these old crates were very limited at supersonic speeds and would have only spent short bursts at supersonic speeds and would struggle to hit Mach 2 let alone sustain it with external fuel tanks and ordinance fitted?

You're right - most jet fighters of the day cruised at subsonic speed and used afterburners for supersonic dashes. Anything hung off the wings hurt performance too and as someone else pointed out, the Spey was slow to spool up. RN carriers were equipped with Buccaneers, which were also fitted with the Spey (in S2 form) so some parts commonality with RN air defence fighters was useful too. The Spey equipped Buccaneer was a legendary plane - able to outrun pretty much anything at low level. Even a Lightning would struggle to keep up.

Pilots preferred the Lightning but the Phantom had better range and greater weapons capacity

The Lightning also had the ability - F6 excepted I believe - to supercruise; ie it didn't require an afterburner for the jet to travel faster than Mach 1, unique in it's day.

My old man designed bits of Lightnings and he told me that at one point the RAF apparently forbade Lightning pilots from engaging RAF Phantoms in mock-dogfights. A Lightning would comprehensively outfly a Phantom...for a few minutes at least, until the tank ran dry.

It was also quickly realised that the extra weight and drag of a Lightning's external fuel tanks ensured that they used much more fuel on takeoff and climb to altitude than a "clean" Lightning. They were often scrambled with the external tanks empty, to be refuelled once they were at cruising altitude.

Well the Spey was a turbofan engine originally designed for a different application so was probably never suited to the Phantom, so to say it was a 'poor' design is not completely fair. More of an inappropriate application of the engine, still cool though. In a way it was an engine ahead of its time with it being a turbofan at a time where military jets were all turbojet engines, but now they're turbofans as with the EJ200 in the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Nothing wrong with political sops to secure British jobs. His do you think the yanks manage to keep their big industries going through the peaks and troughs of variable private demand? We could do with a bit more of it.

But we're no strangers to applying the wrong tools for the job even recently. In the first gulf war RAF Tornado GR1s struggled to get to altitude with full fuel and weapons payload severely limiting the capability of joint Missions with US F16s, But then again the Tornado was never intended to be a high altitude bomber, it was designed as a low level Cold War bomber.

I love the Lightning.

There is a very strong whiff of British madness about the whole design.
The designers wrapped the smallest plane they could around the engines without really worrying about where the fuel would go

They even designed a rocket pack for it, just in case one day they needed even madder acceleration. It was never flown though. Apparently the Lightnings speed was considered sufficient without it.

There is a very strong whiff of British madness about the whole design.

That's an understatement!

From what my father has told me of the Lightning's development, there was a lot of even more insane ideas floating around - a swing wing variant for use by the Royal Navy, bolting on the American Genie nuclear tipped air to air missile, a strike version fitted with an advanced cannon capable of attacking tanks and numerous air to ground missles. The Saudi versions were a somewhat sanitized development of the strike Lightning plans.

It's worth a trip to Cosford to oggle them all

[img] http://www.russellb.co.uk/Pics1/Cosford130712/P1000716.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.russellb.co.uk/Pics1/Cosford130712/P1000716.jp g"/> [/img]
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The Lightning was built to match a specification requirement issued by the MOD (or whatever they were called at the time..), all it had to do was get into a missile firing position after intercepting the target ( a Russian aircraft carrying nuclear weapons) as quickly as possible, there was no real requirement at the time for to be able to make multiple passes or even recover to base. Just like the V force, they were on a one way ticket.
The Lightning did what it was required to do exceptionally well (apart from the number lost due to engine fires!). it was when the requirement changed (ICBM's etc) that the Lightning really struggled as they tried to adapt it to do things it was never designed to do.