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should be good, uri geller the secret spy?
Ace
Shame there's nothing on Brixmis...
Ooo,cold war jets. I is also excited.
Andy, check out an old thread of mine....
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/when-wars-were-colder-planes-were-cooler
I'd also be excited if I could work out when it's on. Or has it been on & I've missed it?
Jets and subs... awesome 🙂
Sounds interesting. Will look out for it, thanks CFH.
Ta for the heads up.
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Jets In The Cold WarThe jet engine was one of the most important inventions of the 20th century. A triumph of British engineering born out of conflict;
That would be British and German engineering then. And the German ones were much, much better, as they didn't just try to bolt a jet engine on a plane not very removed from a Spitfire.
I'm nominating Flasheart for arguably the best PSA ever 😀
Good spot.
Good shout, let the nerdery begin
That would be British and German engineering then. And the German ones were much, much better, as they didn't just try to bolt a jet engine on a plane not very removed from a Spitfire.
The tele will probably answer soon enough. But wasn't half the trouble with the German designs that they where far too complicated for the available manufacturing capabilities?
The tele will probably answer soon enough. But wasn't half the trouble with the German designs that they where far too complicated for the available manufacturing capabilities?
totally - too much time to get to production and too slow to produce. The british efforts were about speed and ease of production - the Sten Gun, for instance, was manufactured in a toy factory.
But wasn't half the trouble with the German designs that they where far too complicated for the available manufacturing capabilities?
More the acute lack of any resources as a result of being on the losing side.
And as a design platform for future planes (what the BBC blurb alludes to), the German technology was much more relevant. We might have independently co-invented the jet engine, but it's the German technology in regard to how to build a plane around it that was the thing that sets them apart. The first Meteors could barely do over 400 mph, compared to the Me 262's 530 mph. The Me262 also first few 9 moths before the Meteor.
/pedant
/geek
The Germans carried on developing new technology to the very end. Possibly if they had just used their resources to produce existing technology they may have lasted longer.
Whereas the Allies, particularly the USA, tended to concentrate on production of large numbers, e.g. The Sherman tank, designed to take on the Panzer IV, which it could but it was completely outclassed by the Tigers and Panthers. However, the decision was made not to retool production lines and to concentrate on producing large numbers of Shermans.
With the jets, the Allies responded to the Me262 with Meteors and Shooting Stars, which did not have the swept wing technology but were still superior to a piston engine fighter. A bit like the Sherman Firefly, not as capable as a Tiger but at least they had a chance of destroying one.
Tough on the crews who had to fight in the things mind.
The Me262 also first few 9 moths before the Meteor./pedant
/geek
And the Heinkel He178 flew nearly four years before the Me262 (1939 compared to 1943)...
#firstjetpoweredflight
#biggerpedant
#evenbiggergeek
I guess we should write to complain to Aunty then, in that case....
Looks fantastic.
Uri Geller, the controversial mentalist
😀
Whereas the Allies, particularly the USA, tended to concentrate on production of large numbers, e.g. The Sherman tank, designed to take on the Panzer IV, which it could but it was completely outclassed by the Tigers and Panthers. However, the decision was made not to retool production lines and to concentrate on producing large numbers of Shermans.
Its interesting that USA then adopted the German approach during the cold war.
Russian or Warsaw Pact conventional forces seriously out numbered American or Nato ones, but the NATO forces were superior in terms of technology.
Mind you if the cold war turned hot conventional forces might not have mattered.
Its interesting that USA then adopted the German approach during the cold war.
Very true. I think it was case that they could never of matched the Warsaw Pacts numbers ever, so they went down the high tech, increased capability route. I suppose the soldiers who had fought against the Panzers and got hammered, realised that a lack of numbers could be made up with superior equipment and they were the ones who developed the Cold War doctrine, strategy and equipment.
Also, after Vietnam the US public would not accept unnecessary casualties, so this has driven the super high tech military equipment we have today, drones etc.
Mind you if the cold war turned hot conventional forces might not have mattered.
The Cold War was hot - it's just that most of the millions of people who were killed were the Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners and Latin Americans killed by the superpowers' proxies.
Andy, check out an old thread of mine....http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/when-wars-were-colder-planes-were-cooler
Best thread ever! We should have another one as many of the photos are no longer there 🙁
Here's a Nimrod and a Victor for no other reason that I saw both recently at Elvington...
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... the victor looks very menacing up close!
Best thread ever! We should have another one as many of the photos are no longer there
Was reading through it again last night, and it certainly was a cracker! 🙂 Agree that it's sad to see so many pics no longer linking. Looks like this thread may well end up replacing it, but perhaps with a slightly broader remit, beyond just flying things! 🙂
Great stuff. Bloody love subs too. How about an Akula class...
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This looks like a good season.
I hope they investigate the Russians experimental planes and the like, some were way bonkers, like the massive seaplane thing they did..
the massive seaplane thing they did..
Ekranoplan!
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The Germans can't lay claim to the jet engine. Whittle got the patent and was developing an engine from very early on on the war. The Germans got one flying first but it only lasted 6 hrs before the turbines melted as materials science was not advanced enough. They went for axial compressors, better but technology too far ahead of their grasp at the time. Whittle took a more measured approach and utilised centrifugal compressors which did the job fine back then given the current state of the art and materials limitations. Anyway, jet engined aircraft came too late to make an impact on WW2.
Those Russian jets in formation look great.
Bit sad to see them now...
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So when is it on? Did anyone answer the question posted earlier? having grown up in the latter stages of the cold war the sound of the 4 minute warning still turns my blood cold, really looking forward to it.
If anyone is interested, RAF Cosford near Telford has a really good Cold War section, my kids who are largely ignorant of the cold war were horrified at what they saw and genuinely couldn't believe how close things got.
I think they are just announcing a new season, I'm guessing schedule will come along later.
Are we allowed tanks too?
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the victor looks very menacing up close!
Wasn't the Victor the longest-serving aircraft that the RAF possessed? in service for something like fifty years IIRC, they still used them as tankers up to about 2003.
Britain's V Force was THE coolest squadron ever.
Victors, Valiants and Vulcans. What not to love.
I'm looking forward to this.
Cheers CFH. I assume you've flown them all 😆
That article says it was last updated on the 28th of May this year; are you sure it's not been and gone?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03h8r3y ]Cold War, Hot Jets[/url] on the 8th of Nov 🙂
Brilliant! This is the most awesome PSA in the history of Singletrack, ever.
That would be British and German engineering then. And the German ones were much, much better, as they didn't just try to bolt a jet engine on a plane not very removed from a Spitfire.
Yes and no. The German engine designs were advanced in that they were axial flow, but they were fundamentally flawed in that their materials science was way behind us. German engines had very short lives, although a refined version of a wartime BMW engine still serves to this very day as the ATAR engine in French-built aircraft. British engines of the time were very different in design, lacking multiple compressors but were ballpark in terms of thrust and in a different league when it came to reliability. The Rolls-Royce Nene turbojet of the immediate post-war period was clearly closely related to the venerable Derwent which powered the early Meteor and was adapted by both the US and USSR to power the F-86 Sabre and MiG-15 respectively during the Korean war.
In terms of aerodynamics, we lagged behind German research considerably, with no supersonic wind tunnels. Contrary to popular belief, the swept-wing Me262 was designed as such in order to balance the centre of gravity, not to delay the onset of wing buffeting, but the theory was very much in place there by 1944. Once again, the Germans were hampered by poor materials science.
In combat, the Me262 wasn't quite as revolutionary as it may seem. Although they were undeniably fast, acceleration was very poor and they were often caught napping by high performance piston engined fighters like the P-51, Tempest and of course the late Spitfires. German airbases quickly learned to put up an umbrella of FW-190s to protect the jets from attack during takeoff and landing.
Wasn't the Victor the longest-serving aircraft that the RAF possessed? in service for something like fifty years IIRC, they still used them as tankers up to about 2003.
The Canberra has that beat, it was phased out in 2007. Technically, you could argue that the Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster remain in service with the BBMF...
What about the Shackleton? Based on a Lancaster with four Griffons and contra rotating props and only relatively recently retired from service?
Andy, check out an old thread of mine....
> http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/when-wars-were-colder-planes-were-cooler
Brilliant thread!
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For me this is up there with the all time greats. Never defeated in combat
There is a trailer for it [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01kch9x ]here[/url]on the BBC website, which says the trailer has been available since Saturday.
About 80%of what I watch are BBC documentaries I can't imagine I would of missed it, unless it was on when I was working away.
What about the Shackleton? Based on a Lancaster with four Griffons and contra rotating props and only relatively recently retired from service?
Kind of...the Shack was based on the Lincoln, which in turn was developed from the Lancaster. The Shack was retired in 1990, which would make the design 48 years old. The Canberra served for 55 years and was retired in 2006 - not 2007.
Also arguably pinnacle of cold war hardware...
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Plenty of wacky soviet derivatives too!
Nimrod was in service till 2011 I think and was based on the Comet which first flew in 1949. 62 years not bad for a design!
Ektranoplan !!
Russian Bonkerness at it's most bullish. Perfect. 😀
Along with materials science the allies were well ahead in petro- chemical's science in WW2. It's one of the reasons the engines could be simpler in design - better quality and higher octane fuels were available.
For me the best (ugliest) bit of cold war British engineering has to be the Lightning. Watching one as a kid at an air show was awesome.
You could also argue that Concord was every bit a symbol of cold war engineering and far more useful than the hydrogen bomb.
oooh, wonderful.
Cue the debates with mrs_oab about what we *are* watching....
On another note, my Uncle used to design Nuclear Warheads for us lot when he was based in Lossienouth, since moved to Saudi to take that phse further and enjoy his retirement.. 😉
Mental when you think of it, my Uncle a "potential" mass murderer!! 😯
Wow, was retired in 1990? Thought it was later than that. Time flies.
My personal favourite is the English Electric Lightning. Two after burning Avons wrapped by the minimal amount of aeroplane to make them fly.
My personal favourite is the English Electric Lightning. Two after burning Avons wrapped. by the minimal amount of aeroplane to make them fly.
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Awesomeness in a picture.
DOCUMENTARY: Strange Days
On: BBC 2 London (2)
Date: Tuesday 12th November 2013 (starting in 14 days)
Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long)
What was that American cold war spy plane that was faster than any Russian missile, was it Bluebird??
What was that American cold war spy plane that was faster than any Russian missile, was it Bluebird??
Almost, it was the Lockheed-Martin SR-71 Blackbird -
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It was at the time the highest-flying, fastest air-breathing aircraft ever built - on the same day in July 1976, two separate SR-71s set the records - one reaching an altitude of 85,069 feet, the other reaching a maximum speed of Mach 3.3 or 2193.2mph.
The SR-71 also holds the record for the fastest flight from London - New York in around 1 hour 54 minutes - Concorde's best was 2 hours 52 minutes!!
They used to fly them out of Mildenhall in Suffolk.
The thing that got me with the SR71 was how small it was compared to how big I'd imagined it would be!
Saw them displaying at Mildenhall a couple of times, awesome bloody things to see.
Awwww, go on. Let's have a Strikemaster. Getting looooooow
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Based on the lovely little Jet Provost.
The ruskies couldn't shoot down the SR71 with SAM's so they built the Mig25 Foxbat to chase it down, but I think even they struggled to get anywhere near it.
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/10562714203_2de4dcba47.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/88504879@N03/10562714203/ ]Foxbat[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/88504879@N03/ ]wobbliscott[/url], on Flickr
The award for the best aircraft of the cold war never to go into service goes to:-
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3768/10562773693_5765d236c2.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/88504879@N03/10562773693/ ]TSR2[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/88504879@N03/ ]wobbliscott[/url], on Flickr
the TSR2. Was year ahead of its time, and the technology available at the time unfortunately, so the costs spiralled. The cancellation of this project marked the beginning of the end for the British Aerospace industry, in terms of being capable of building entire aircraft. Now we just make bits of aircraft.
And this has to be one of the most bonkers aircraft of the cold war. A supersonic heavy nuclear bomber. The XB70 Valkyrie - real Flash Gordon stuff. This aircraft demonstrates that it is not easy to make a Concorde and why no-one else has done it. Its far more to it than just bolting on as many jet engines as you can and beat the laws of Physics into submission. It was supposed to replace the B52. Best laid plans...
[url= http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5502/10562649434_2d98ccc962.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/88504879@N03/10562649434/ ]xb70 valkrie[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/88504879@N03/ ]wobbliscott[/url], on Flickr
The ruskies couldn't shoot down the SR71 with SAM's so they built the Mig25 Foxbat to chase it down, but I think even they struggled to get anywhere near it.
And when they were both retired, I'm sure that this was the fastest, highest flying plane in regular service.
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If not, it wasn't far off it. Champagne, anyone?
The Valkyrie really was bonkers. But improved Soviet SAM's rendered it pretty much useless.
And when they were both retired, I'm sure that this was the fastest, highest flying plane in regular service.
I'm sure I read somewhere about a Blackbird pilot being asked nicely to move over because Concorde was about to overtake him.
Lots of fast military jets could beat Concorde on a short dash but only the MiG-25 and SR-71 could better it for sustained speed. But then neither of them had trolley service
neither of them had trolley service
😀
But then neither of them had trolley service
I believe you also had to pee in your suit 🙂
The ruskies couldn't shoot down the SR71 with SAM's so they built the Mig25 Foxbat to chase it down, but I think even they struggled to get anywhere near it.
The Mig 25 was [i]supposed[/i] to be almost as fast as the SR71 (it could manage Mach 3.2 in short bursts, whereas the SR71 could [i]maintain[/i] Mach 3.3 for long periods) but in actual fact it was only rated for Mach 2.83. Any attempt on Mach 3 or above usually borked the engines.
Like the SR71, the Mig 25 used afterburning turbojets, but the difference was that the SR71's engines effectively became ramjets with the intake spikes fully open.
Cheers for the heads up & +1 one on the awesomeness of the Lightning.
I thoroughly recommend a visit to Bruntingthorpe to see their cold war jets. They are kept in operable condition so on an open day you get to see them do fast taxi runs.
Also based there is the Lightning Preservation Group who have a QRA hangar with two F.6 Lightnings in working order. I recently had the pleasure of visiting them for the day, sitting in the cockpit whilst one was towed out to the runway & then standing next to it as those Avons went through a full power run. I don't know which was more intoxicating, the smell of the cockpit or the smell of the unburnt avgas sizzling in the jet pipes afterwards.
Lots of fast military jets could beat Concorde on a short dash but only the MiG-25 and SR-71 could better it for sustained speed.
IIRC the only military jet that "caught" a Concorde at cruising speed was a Lightning...but one assumes that a fully fuelled Victor wasn't far away, otherwise the Lightning pilot would have taken an impromptu swim.
Now the MiG 25 was utterly bonkers. When the Soviets first demonstrated it in the sixties, it threw the west into panic. It was assumed that with the boxy fuselage and large wing that the plane was built as a dogfighter, with a high speed dash to target as a bonus. The US wound up producing the F-15 as a response, which could fly fast AND dogfight with the very best.
It transpired that the MiG-25 was built largely out of steel, not titanium as expected. As a result, the MiG was heavy and limited to just over 2g sustained turning load. Moreover, if the engines were run at full power for too long, they invariably lunched themselves and a mach 3 dash resulted in a subsequent engine rebuild.
The MiG's main trump card was it's radar - built on vacuum valve technology and monstrously powerful. It could simply overpower enemy jamming through sheer wattage. An oft-quoted fact was that the MiG 25's radar running at full power would kill a rabbit, from two kilometers away.
I thought the MiG 25 was a response to the XB70?
Isn't it a shame that we never made the Bombcorde?
How about we big it up with a Zubr
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The world would be a better place if we used hovercraft more. 🙂
The world would be a better place if we used hovercraft more.
You are Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my $5
Chortles!
Now, what about this beauty as well;
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And, say hello to my leeeetle friend;
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An oft-quoted fact was that the MiG 25's radar running at full power would kill a rabbit, from two kilometers away.
Whats a rabbit doing that high up?
Read this ages ago, dunno how true it actually is but it sounds good!
SR-71 Blackbird Communication to Tower
Written by Brian Schul—former sled (SR-71 Blackbird) driver.
[I]There were a lot of things we couldn't do in an SR-71, but we were the fastest guys on the block and loved reminding our fellow aviators of this fact. People often asked us if, because of this fact, it was fun to fly the jet. Fun would not be the first word I would use to describe flying this plane—intense, maybe, even cerebral. But there was one day in our Sled experience when we would have to say that it was pure fun to be the fastest guys out there, at least for a moment.
It occurred when Walt and I were flying our final training sortie. We needed 100 hours in the jet to complete our training and attain Mission Ready status. Somewhere over Colorado we had passed the century mark. We had made the turn in Arizona and the jet was performing flawlessly. My gauges were wired in the front seat and we were starting to feel pretty good about ourselves, not only because we would soon be flying real missions but because we had gained a great deal of confidence in the plane in the past ten months. Ripping across the barren deserts 80,000 feet below us, I could already see the coast of California from the Arizona border. I was, finally, after many humbling months of simulators and study, ahead of the jet.
I was beginning to feel a bit sorry for Walter in the back seat. There he was, with no really good view of the incredible sights before us, tasked with monitoring four different radios. This was good practice for him for when we began flying real missions, when a priority transmission from headquarters could be vital. It had been difficult, too, for me to relinquish control of the radios, as during my entire flying career I had controlled my own transmissions. But it was part of the division of duties in this plane and I had adjusted to it. I still insisted on talking on the radio while we were on the ground, however. Walt was so good at many things, but he couldn't match my expertise at sounding smooth on the radios, a skill that had been honed sharply with years in fighter squadrons where the slightest radio miscue was grounds for beheading. He understood that and allowed me that luxury. Just to get a sense of what Walt had to contend with, I pulled the radio toggle switches and monitored the frequencies along with him. The predominant radio chatter was from Los Angeles Center, far below us, controlling daily traffic in their sector. While they had us on their scope (albeit briefly), we were in uncontrolled airspace and normally would not talk to them unless we needed to descend into their airspace.
We listened as the shaky voice of a lone Cessna pilot who asked Center for a read-out of his ground speed. Center replied: "November Charlie 175, I'm showing you at ninety knots on the ground." Now the thing to understand about Center controllers, was that whether they were talking to a rookie pilot in a Cessna, or to Air Force One, they always spoke in the exact same, calm, deep, professional tone that made one feel important. I referred to it as the "Houston Center voice." I have always felt that after years of seeing documentaries on this country's space program and listening to the calm and distinct voice of the Houston controllers, that all other controllers since then wanted to sound like that and that they basically did. And it didn't matter what sector of the country we would be flying in, it always seemed like the same guy was talking. Over the years that tone of voice had become somewhat of a comforting sound to pilots everywhere. Conversely, over the years, pilots always wanted to ensure that, when transmitting, they sounded like Chuck Yeager, or at least like John Wayne. Better to die than sound bad on the radios.
Just moments after the Cessna's inquiry, a Twin Beech piped up on frequency, in a rather superior tone, asking for his ground speed in Beech. "I have you at one hundred and twenty-five knots of ground speed." Boy, I thought, the Beechcraft really must think he is dazzling his Cessna brethren.
Then out of the blue, a navy F-18 pilot out of NAS Lemoore came up on frequency. You knew right away it was a Navy jock because he sounded very cool on the radios. "Center, Dusty 52 ground speed check." Before Center could reply, I'm thinking to myself, hey, Dusty 52 has a ground speed indicator in that million-dollar cockpit, so why is he asking Center for a read-out? Then I got it, ol' Dusty here is making sure that every bug smasher from Mount Whitney to the Mojave knows what true speed is. He's the fastest dude in the valley today, and he just wants everyone to know how much fun he is having in his new Hornet. And the reply, always with that same, calm, voice, with more distinct alliteration than emotion: "Dusty 52, Center, we have you at 620 on the ground." And I thought to myself, is this a ripe situation, or what? As my hand instinctively reached for the mic button, I had to remind myself that Walt was in control of the radios. Still, I thought, it must be done—in mere seconds we'll be out of the sector and the opportunity will be lost. That Hornet must die, and die now. I thought about all of our Sim training and how important it was that we developed well as a crew and knew that to jump in on the radios now would destroy the integrity of all that we had worked toward becoming. I was torn.
Somewhere, 13 miles above Arizona, there was a pilot screaming inside his space helmet. Then, I heard it—the click of the mic button from the back seat. That was the very moment that I knew Walter and I had become a crew. Very professionally, and with no emotion, Walter spoke: "Los Angeles Center, Aspen 20, can you give us a ground speed check?" There was no hesitation, and the replay came as if was an everyday request.
"Aspen 20, I show you at one thousand eight hundred and forty-two knots, across the ground." I think it was the forty-two knots that I liked the best, so accurate and proud was Center to deliver that information without hesitation, and you just knew he was smiling. But the precise point at which I knew that Walt and I were going to be really good friends for a long time was when he keyed the mic once again to say, in his most fighter-pilot-like voice: "Ah, Center, much thanks, we're showing closer to nineteen hundred on the money."
For a moment Walter was a god. And we finally heard a little crack in the armor of the Houston Center voice, when L.A. came back with, "Roger that Aspen. Your equipment is probably more accurate than ours. You boys have a good one." It all had lasted for just moments, but in that short, memorable sprint across the southwest, the Navy had been flamed, all mortal airplanes on freq were forced to bow before the King of Speed, and more importantly, Walter and I had crossed the threshold of being a crew. A fine day's work. We never heard another transmission on that frequency all the way to the coast. For just one day, it truly was fun being the fastest guys out there.[/I]
Let's not forget some of the awesomeness on the ground. ..
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Woohoo! looking forward to this!
That SR-71 piece never fails to make me laugh.
Pity the SR-72 will be pilotless.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/170463-lockheed-unveils-sr-72-hypersonic-mach-6-scramjet-spy-plane
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I hope they carry nuke to reduce the maggot kind ... 🙄
You guys should look into doing the tour of Upper Heyford.
A mate did it, loads of great stuff, the highlights being, a state of alert light that indicates total global annihilation, as well as nuclear bombs listed on the wall. They always swore there were no nukes.
chewkw - Member
I hope they carry nuke to reduce the maggot kind ...
Spook plane, innit. Ain't gonna carry nukes. Or any other weapons, no-one's going to shoot it down at Mach 6...
It all looks pretty good. [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01jtngj/features/about ]BBC Cold War Season[/url]
The Silent War should be interesting.
Ah yesh, shubmarinesh, with captainsh with Scottish accentsh.
😉
20 minute warning!
OK, I know it should be a four minute warning, but I need to get to the fridge and get another beer!
Here we go!