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I follow Banksy on Twitter and he put the footage of the man being shot 😯 shocking and senseless. To be honest wish I hadn't seen it.
I do wonder whether the officer meant to shoot but either way, pulling a gun out and pointing at someone you're wrestling with seems a little more than likely to result in a shooting.
Not going to look at it. Having seen the film of the guy being shot in the head in vietnam maybe we all should.
When someone is shot they don't just fall over in a tidy pile like on telly. It's a bit more messy and permanent.
I do wonder whether the officer meant to shoot but either way
Really? He shot him six times. How could you shoot someone six times and not mean it?
franksinatra - MemberHow could you shoot someone six times and not mean it?
Oh god, it just went off without me meaning to! Why did that happen? I was just sort of doing this and oh god! It did it again! That's really dangerous, I need to figure out what exactly is causing it, is it this? No? This? Oh god, it went off again! But how hard do I need to touch that bit before it goes off? I'd better check
Could have happened to anyone.
Could have happened to any[s]one[/s] american cop whilst arresting a black man.
Serious question... how often are US cops shot by folk resisting arrest these days?
We see a ton of nasty looking incidents, and a seemingly increasing amount of tragic fatalities, but why are the cops so trigger happy?
Unless they have serious reason to be so jumpy I almost feel like they are intentionally stirring up racial tension, and the roscoe p coltrane stereotype seems a bit lazy
We see a ton of nasty looking incidents, and a seemingly increasing amount of tragic fatalities, but why are the cops so trigger happy?
Don't know how accurate this is, but I did read a piece that claimed that the T&Cs for healthcare for police had been changed. If you get injured on the job you end up unemployed with huge bills. This makes the police a lot less keen on taking chances.
but why are the cops so trigger happy?
I think we only hear about the exceptions - its a big country, a statistically small number incidents still adds up to a lot of new stories. I think its the case that most US cops have never even drawn their gun whilst on duty. Perhaps the rarity of circumstance were cops will draw their guns means they don't really know what to do when they do- they're not as trained or rehearsed or disciplined as our firearms officers (who can still get wrong maybe)
but why are the cops so trigger happy?
No retribution for their actions?
Anyway, shortly after the Alton Sterling shooting....
but why are the cops so trigger happy?
Would you do their job ?
In a country with some very deprived and depraved areas where guns are very easy to come by and, it seems, there is very poor mental health care provision, there is no way I would risk my life day in day out as a cop in America.
I really don't like it, but I do see how a "if in doubt, shoot" mentality can develop amongst those who opt to become cops.
It's wrong and is a sign of very sad times that people are being killed by police. There seems to be a lot wrong with the system in the USA.
I'm not defending the killings. But, perhaps the police officers readily draw their guns because there is a high possibility that the person they are trying to stop will also have a gun (legally). Maybe their mindset is that it's "him or me".
We don't have the same problem here because very few people have access to a gun and even fewer carry a gun on the streets.
As maccruiskeen pointed out, it's a big country with a lot of police people doing their jobs without anyone getting shot. We hear about the small number of incidents that don't go to plan and it's right that there is coverage of these killings.
If the Americans changed their mindset about guns and gun ownership it might help to reduce the number of similar incidents.
Wirhout exception, every single person on this thread, if in a position of having to take on a potentially armed suspect, would pull their gun. Every time. I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but there's no way I'd be taking any chances in a country where you can go to Asda and buy a Pain Au Chocolat at the same time as buying a ****ing big gun.
This is all based on the idea that the camera doesn't lie and this guy was defenceless at the time he was shot.
I don't want to watch it but my gut feel is the video is misleading and the struggle with an armed man was still ongoing, or at least the guy who fired thought it was.
What other motive could there be?
every single person on this thread, if in a position of having to take on a potentially armed suspect, would pull their gun
that's a very valid point.. they're only human
If the Americans changed their mindset about guns and gun ownership it might help to reduce the number of similar incidents.
Theres more to it than access to gun - the problem as Cranberry alludes to is the inequality, desperation and deprivation in the states the gun is the icing on the cake. Its not the fear of fact that the other person might have a gun - its that they might have a gun and have nothing to lose, or even might not have a gun and still have nothing to lose.
every single person on this thread, if in a position of having to take on a potentially armed suspect, would pull their gun
Big difference between pulling a gun and shooting someone multiple times. Police in the UK regularly deploy Armed Response Units but rarely fire a shot.
Zambrano-Montes was killed in February by officers responding to reports that he was throwing rocks at cars. The incident was caught on video, with 17 shots fired; according to police, “five or six” struck Zambrano-Montes.
He was armed with rocks FFS.
This site is fascinating
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database ]Guardian - The Counted[/url]
I think we only hear about the exceptions - its a big country, a statistically small number incidents still adds up to a lot of new stories
The population of US is nearly exactly 5 times bigger than the UK. But so far this year the police over there have shot dead 560 people. The UK have shot 1.
He had a gun in his pocket and was struggling with them, trying to reach it, no?
According to Wikipedia in 2015 39 US police officers were killed by gunfire, another 2 by accidental gunfire. Given a rough count of 1.1 million law enforcement personnel in a country of nearing 320 million I think it's fairly obvious that you are far more likely to be shot and killed as US police officer than you are to be shot and killed as a US citizen by a police officer.
So given those figures it's not surprising that officers do use their weapons and kill people.
The problem as others have said is far more the availability of guns than it is of policing
paulosoxo - MemberWirhout exception, every single person on this thread, if in a position of having to take on a potentially armed suspect, would pull their gun. Every time
Of course. But that's not really the issue is it?
I wouldn't do the job, especially in the inner cities/crime hotspots. It's dangerous and disrespected and hard and not paid enough. But that's not the issue either.
I don't think we can deny there is a very big problem. The other shooting video today ( ! ) is like an execution with the guy held on the ground and shot in the head.
As above a police officer is the US is not a job I would do
A question I have is on that video of the car incident why did she sit there filming it like a documentary, rather than help her boyfriend.. mental 😯
because she was told to sit there with her hands on the wheel while an armed policeman who'd just shot her boyfriend pointed his gun at her.
You'd be 'mental' not to comply (don't like that word, but you used it)
I think we only hear about the exceptions - its a big country, a statistically small number incidents still adds up to a lot of new stories.
In 2015 the US police shot dead 1146 people.
In the UK that number was 3
Even adjusting for population the rate is about 80 times higher than the UK
....but as noted before, when there's a massively higher chance of the suspect having a gun, it's not a fair comparison.
In the UK, in most cases where you confront a 'violent' suspect who may even have a weapon of sorts like a knife or a 'club' - you have to be within touching distance to be at risk. I wonder how many were tasered, or truncheoned, or just physically overpowered where in the US to get close could well have far more serious consequences.
but why are the cops so trigger happy?
They've become more and more 'risk adverse' in recent years, if someone 'could' be a threat, they are within their rights to kill them. This most recent case, the guy was armed, now he wasn't holding the weapon, nor was he attacking them, he was resisting arrest - but they'll say he was non-compliant, resisting and armed and I'm fairly sure a judge will rule it a lawful killing.
Sadly we saw a similar thing with the shooting of Azelle Rodney in London, the Police put a ‘hard stop’ on the car they were chasing – a surprise attack basically blocking it’s path, the driver hit the brakes causing the rear passenger to go forward – the office in the vehicle next to it, already having is rifle up pointing him, saw him go forward, decided in half a second he was going for a gun, shot him twice in the chest and when it did kill him immediately shot him twice in the head. He never saw a gun, the threat was a perceived one, it went to trial, but the office was found not-guilty. He claimed that he didn’t go out looking to shoot someone, but the video is pretty damming, he fires a hail of bullets at zero notice at an unarmed man and his colleagues are more than a bit pleased about it.
plus, there's this American obsession with Good Guys and Bad Guys, they've managed to dehumanise suspects as "bad guys" - if the person they killed this time has previous convictions, it will probably be enough for a lot of Americans to see him as a 'bad guy' - case closed.
The Police Unions have also managed to legitimise the "21 foot rule" it states that anyone holding a non-firearm weapon within 21ft should be considered a lethal threat and they're allowed to kill them. It's an old unofficial rule from a guide from the 60's when the Police would leave their pistols holstered when dealing with people to try to deescalate the situation, they showed that someone could run at you and stab you before you could draw your gun if they were within 21ft, but they’ve evolved it, these days US police will pull their weapons as the smallest provocation and even though they might have their gun in their hands, up and pointed at someone, they still use the 21ft rule to justify shooting them.
Another worrying thing I see happen with a lot of these Police shootings in the US is a sort of group justification – if one officer fires, most, if not all of their Colleagues will join in too, assuming the first shooter’s justification is good enough, or perhaps as an act of solidarity – you might be able to save the life of someone shot once, or twice but 6 officers firing a full magazine each is a firing squad, and will mean death for the suspect.
The real issue is the USA's idiotic approach to gun laws.
but why are [s]the cops[/s] Americans so trigger happy?
plus, there's this American obsession with Good Guys and Bad Guys, they've managed to dehumanise [s]suspects [/s] [b]black people[/b] as "bad guys" - if the person they killed this time has previous convictions, it will probably be enough for a lot of Americans to see him as a 'bad guy' - case closed.
I saw a reference to a study the other day which showed officers an image and they had to click a "shoot" or "don't shoot" button as quickly as possible. So an image would flash up of someone holding a gun, or a mobile phone, or a spanner and the officer would have to react. It showed a clear bias towards "shoot" when the person in the image was black, even when the officers were black or Hispanic.
In the Baton Rouge video,[b] if[/b] everything is as I've heard so far then I can see why the officer(s) shot. The guy they were trying to cuff was very big, and resisting and trying to reach his gun. Do you wait until he gets hold of the gun and shoots your partner before you fire back?
The second one (in the car) sounds (again, IF what I've heard is correct) much more like an overreaction by the officer. He volunteers the information that he has a legally held gun on him. The officer asks him for his license and then shoots him when he reaches for it.
Likewise with the numerous other cases of people armed with sticks, rocks, bottles etc. Yes, they could hurt or even kill someone with it, but why is tazing or CSing skipped over and they jump straight to shooting? Or the kid in the park who was shot in the back while running away?!
but why is tazing or CSing skipped over and they jump straight to shooting?
Most US cops won't carry a tazer and either that or CS aren't effective against everybody. Why risk finding out the hard way and getting shot when you can just open fire in the first place and stay alive.
It's a very sad state of affairs in the US at the moment and I don't see how they will ever change things until they change their gun laws.
[i]According to Wikipedia in 2015 39 US police officers were killed by gunfire, another 2 by accidental gunfire. Given a rough count of 1.1 million law enforcement personnel in a country of nearing 320 million I think it's fairly obvious that you are far more likely to be shot and killed as US police officer than you are to be shot and killed as a US citizen by a police officer.[/i][i]
Except...
[/i]In 2015 the US police shot dead 1146 people.[i]
The guy was actually armed in this case wasn't he? Not that that excuses shooting him.
I think there is a world of difference between calling in an armed response unit and having a gun on your hip which can basically just as easily be in your hand as not. If in doubt, you might think you might as well have it out, right?
And once it's in your hand I'd imagine the likelihood that someone's going to end up getting shot becomes much greater.
you might be able to save the life of someone shot once, or twice but 6 officers firing a full magazine each is a firing squad, and will mean death for the suspect.
Another interesting point. In the videos that I have seen, I have never seen any attempt to apply first aid. Instead, the suspect is usually handcuffed and left to bleed out. It seems that the guy in the car yesterday was shot in the arm. I know this is a heavy assumption but a big field dressing and plenty of pressure [i]might[/i] have been enough to stop the guy bleeding to death (assuming that was indeed his only injury). Instead, the cop stood there pointing a gun at him whist he died.
Really? He shot him six times. How could you shoot someone six times and not mean it?
The point I was making was that before they started shooting him to death, the policeman visible pulled his gun out and in the middle of the fight started pointing it at the guy he was fighting with. It was quite likely that he would end up firing, even accidentally. Once a gun goes off, there's yelling about Alton Sterling having a gun then loads more shots. Not to say that it was accidental after the first time but who knows about the first one.
That said, one of the police officers had already had a suspension for shooting someone so maybe he's just a bit trigger happy.
The guy was actually armed in this case wasn't he?
Both men who were shot dead were carrying firearms.
It seems that the guy in the car yesterday was shot in the arm
He was shot in the body as well. He was licensed to carry a concealed firearm, as some people are in America. The policeman saw that he was armed and told him not to go for his gun, it is said that he was reaching for his documents and it looks likely that the cop has panicked and shot him.