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but my follow up question to that is...... how do i know what 'key/chord' to play it in? ok say ive worked out a passable blitzkreig bop starting with an open E string and utilising the A string too, but what if i play it at a jam/with mates and the guitarist says "no, that needs to be in A minor" or suchlike? how do i know the actual notes that dee dee ramone played?
Two or three parts to this, and firstly a congratulations for finding the intervals or pattern that the song follows. That's a sign that your "ear" is working.
Part 2. I assume if you're playing it on the E string and using the A string then you're playing open E (E), open A (A) and fret 2 on the A string (B) during the main part of the song. This means that you've got the shape of the chord progression which is E major, A Major and B Major. The names of the chords aren't important at this stage because what you've identified by ear is that the second chord (or note) is a fourth above the main (root or tonic) chord and the third note you use is a fifth above the root. This means that the chord progression is a 1-4-5.
Now try playing the same pattern on the open A string (A) the open D string (D) and the second fret D string (E) Your ear will tell you it's the same sound (chord progression) only in a different key, which is now A major.
Just to seal it in your mind, play the same progression on the open D string (D) open G string (G) and fret 2 G string (A) again, the riff or progression sounds the same only higher?
Next, and this bit will, if I can explain it clearly, open up the hundreds if not thousands of songs which use that same 1-4-5 progression.
Listen to Blitzkrieg Bop and play different notes on the E string until you realise (by ear) that you're playing the same note as the bass. You'll discover that one of those notes sounds the same and you will have identified the root or Key- the 1 chord. You know from the pattern you found above, that the next note is a fourth higher (4 chord) and all you did to find that was to play the same fret (open) on the string above. So this time, simply move your fretting finger to the same fret on the next string up and you'll find that 4 chord. Next, you discovered the fifth note (5 chord) was two frets higher than the open 4 chord, so simply fret the note two frets up from the 4.
That's a lot to digest, but persevere! I'm not going to spoil your fun by telling you which note he actually starts on, but if you get it and recognise that vital 1-4-5 pattern shout up and we'll get more into playing the same riff in different keys as a pattern.
When it comes to giving advice on how to learn bass, I realise that if I were a tutor I’d be in the valley of despair! Thankfully as a bassist and songwriter I’m happily climbing the endless slope of enlightenment.
Victor Wooten has some good philosophy on music - stop practising, just play! We don’t practice speaking, we just try speaking and eventually we learn how to do it.
However, if you’re finding the two hands confusing, separate what you’re doing - do the alternating fingers on loads of 8th note roots so your left hand is hardly moving. Figure that out on one string and then start moving across more strings. Frequent repetition is the key.
All the advice above is great. Cheers to everyone who has contributed. As a beginner, I'm trying to absorb it all.
As for playing by ear, a pal suggested this one for me and I actually worked it out!
Sitting on G during, 4th fret (B I think?), ty to work out the main riff from "blister in the sun". Hint - it's only three separate notes.
Learning by ear is a really important skill that teaches you things a dry tab won’t. Even if you have the tab for something it’s much easier to learn if you can actually hear how the phrase sounds……
Just on the Moises audio track splitting thing, indulge me a little….
I’m primarily a guitarist but bought a squier bronco bass and a fender rumble amp a few months ago on a whim and I’ve been really enjoying playing it as something different to do. I think Mike Mills bass lines in the early REM stuff is really good & Driver 8 is a fave song of mine.
It turns out a lot of the tab and “lessons” on YouTube are wrong ( if you listen to the isolated bass tracks ) so I used Moises to work it out then thought I could maybe use the app to play the vocal and drum tracks then “multitrack” myself playing the guitar and bass parts…
There’s a “proper” way of doing this with garage band I'm sure but it came out ok I think….
I agree with you about the dryness of tabs. Bass is quite a lot about groove and feel, and the freely available tabs are all the creators opinion about whats being played and can be inaccurate, but also have no way to impart that feel. I tended to use them more earlier on in my "journey" but am trying to train my ear more nowadays. Just as I did when I taught myself to play drums when I was 15!
As for playing by ear, a pal suggested this one for me and I actually worked it out!
Sitting on G during, 4th fret (B I think?), ty to work out the main riff from "blister in the sun". Hint - it's only three separate notes.
That's fun! And lots to go at from a practice point of view. It teaches a number of technique points as well. Firstly, you can play the intro riff all on the G string, so open(G), fret 4 (B)and fret 5 (C). But after the intro the riff plays an octave lower, so test your fretboard knowledge and find the riff an octave down. Hint: you can't play it like you did on any open strings!
So before you puzzle that out, find the G on the D string at fret 5 . Fret that with your middle finger. The next two notes remain the same as before, ie frets 4 and 5 on the G string. Now you have the same three notes as you did with the open G, but you're now playing a riff that hops between two strings. Fret the B (fret4) with your index finger and the C (5) either with your middle finger or your ring finger- trial and error will determine which works best for you.
Once you've done that, you're all set to play the riff an octave lower using the G on the E string and the B and C on the A string. Another example of how useful repeated patterns are.
@sadexpunk
This might help with your two finger practice also
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This is also an interesting example of the importance of timing! Whoever is playing that cover manages about two bars of being in time, then they push too far ahead of the beat, then get roughly back in the pocket, then they push ahead again and now I’ve reached the point of grimacing like when the audience on Strictly can’t clap in time and can’t bear listening to any more!
I presume they’re a beginner bassist and haven’t figured out that the way to keep in the groove when playing fewer notes is to subdivide the groove. So with a shuffle like that I’m not feeling “dum dum dum dum” for each bar, I’m feeling “dum ba-dum ba-dum ba-dum ba-“, so the quarter notes are subdivided into shuffled eighths.
It’s a good tune for hardly ever changing string, but don’t try to copy their feel! (Don’t feel bad if you can’t hear this timing issue, I’ve been obsessing over the minutiae of groove playing for a long time!)
That sort of thing took me a while to work out but is worth the effort.
It also creates a question I've never properly (had) answered - to my satisfaction at least.
I'm not very good at notes; I know the opens are EADG, the 5th fret which clearly is ADG-and then C needs 'knowing'
Fret 3 is GCFA# (or Bb) - another complexity of theory, that in some scales it's one and some it's the other when really it's the same note. And fret 7 is BEAD
Which then reveals that an octave is 8 notes but also 12 steps or semitones, hence why an octave is repeated on either fret 2 of +2 strings, or fret 7 of the next string, and the pattern repeats all over. I'm still waiting for that moment of being able to intuitively know - so if someone was to say "it's A then D then E" I'd know without having to think where they are. And then guitar it all goes ****ed up because of B being 4 semitones above the G string and then E 5 above B again, so your repeating patterns fall apart!
So the question - you can play an open string or 5th fret of the string below. Why would you choose one over the other? Sometimes seems obvious because of the way fingers fall, but as in the example above, or Spirit further up - to me feels more natural to be playing 5th fret than open, but the tab and vid is open.
God this new forum software is shit. I wrote a reply and then lost it. So in short:
Thinner strings sound brighter and thinner. Fatter strings sound darker and fatter. Fretted notes are easier to work/control than open. Open strings can save a big jump or give you time for a big jump. Where you play something will depend on the sound of the bass and the feel you’re after. Bouncing off an open string can feel very good.
If you want to play Motown on a bass with rounds you have to move most of the lines down a string and up five frets or it just sounds wrong vs a P with old flats.
The better your technique gets, the more your fingering can be led by tone and feel instead of being controlled by what you can physically manage without losing the groove.
Someone please just tell me what Joe is doing here and what combination of lessons I need to learn how to do it....
Can't see how to edit a post but my last post is showing the Spirit in the Sky YouTube video and and it should be this one...
God it is so weird how it’s showing new replies to the thread in the title but not actually posting them…
Now I can see the correct video in both of my posts.
This forum is utter garbage. I'm having another week off.
Someone please just tell me what Joe is doing here and what combination of lessons I need to learn how to do it....
Although I also head off in heavier, weirder and dubbier directions, that kind of funk improvisation is one of the things I do best on bass. Quite early on in my bass playing life I was in a funk rock-ish band and whenever we soundchecked we’d go off on “porno soundtrax” style funk jams.
I’m having to dig deep into my memory banks but I guess I started on those 16th note funk grooves with RATM (yes they’re not a funk band but there’s a lot of funk happening!), then RHCP, Jaco and Tower Of Power. By that point I was then in a band and when it was right for the song I’d improvise funky 16th note parts whilst we were working out arrangements, and then maybe take them away to develop on my own.
If I’m remembering correctly, on one song that we played a lot and had a very busy 16th note line with lots of octaves I’d come up with this verse line with a load of chromatic (hang on let me get my bass and check… ….yes, that’s it) movement and octaves in the verse and then in the choruses I was bouncing around the chord tones plus some passing notes within the bouncy octave thing.
I don’t think there are really any shortcuts. You’ve got to get used to 16th note fingerstyle funk grooves. You’ve got to learn how to play through changes which means understanding enough harmony (FYI I can’t read standard notation but I understand chord charts).
And then on his solo breaks through that he’s throwing in some other fun techniques, I noticed some Stanley Clarke vibes, some Meshell Ndegeocello, etc.
But step 1 with this bass playing is answering this question in the affirmative: Can you feel the funk? Because if you fake the funk your nose will grow! If you haven’t already, go back to James Brown, P Funk, The Meters, Motown, Sly Stone, etc. Without the deep groove this kind of playing is just pointless muso noodling. Mr Dart has the groove but I’d learn it from the people he learnt it from.
I start every practise session with 5 mins of finger stretches and there is an exercise called "the spider walk" which I see more guitar instructor videos mention than bass videos, but it is equally as applicable which I also spent 5 mins on for the first few months, and still do once or twice a week.
i do something similar as practice, just going up and down the top 4 frets, but that video looks like itd be more worthwhile as it uses the whole fretboard. thanks
Also have a look at Justin guitar, he has a good short video or two about building a routine,
bookmarked for my days off, thanks
Part 2. I assume if you're playing it on the E string and using the A string then you're playing open E (E), open A (A) and fret 2 on the A string (B) during the main part of the song. This means that you've got the shape of the chord progression which is E major, A Major and B Major.
yes thats right, but altho i get the names of the notes E, A and B, why are they called 'major'? is that just the name for them if theyre not flats or sharps?
Now try playing the same pattern on the open A string (A) the open D string (D) and the second fret D string (E) Your ear will tell you it's the same sound (chord progression) only in a different key, which is now A major.
Just to seal it in your mind, play the same progression on the open D string (D) open G string (G) and fret 2 G string (A) again, the riff or progression sounds the same only higher?
ok, so i get its the same tune, but why is it now called A major? because its an A that starts the riff? simple as that?
Listen to Blitzkrieg Bop and play different notes on the E string until you realise (by ear) that you're playing the same note as the bass. You'll discover that one of those notes sounds the same and you will have identified the root or Key- the 1 chord. You know from the pattern you found above, that the next note is a fourth higher (4 chord) and all you did to find that was to play the same fret (open) on the string above. So this time, simply move your fretting finger to the same fret on the next string up and you'll find that 4 chord. Next, you discovered the fifth note (5 chord) was two frets higher than the open 4 chord, so simply fret the note two frets up from the 4.
That's a lot to digest, but persevere! I'm not going to spoil your fun by telling you which note he actually starts on, but if you get it and recognise that vital 1-4-5 pattern shout up and we'll get more into playing the same riff in different keys as a pattern.
ill try that when next at home. i genuinely think ive got a poor ear for things like that tho and doubt very much ill suss out which note he starts from but ill give it a go 🙂
do the alternating fingers on loads of 8th note roots so your left hand is hardly moving. Figure that out on one string and then start moving across more strings. Frequent repetition is the key.
still coming to terms with terminology. 8th not roots....... im going to take an educated guess that these are open strings at twice the speed of a crotchet yes? which leads me to another question. how long is a crotchet? i know its a 'quarter beat', but does it depend on the speed of the song? and where is that speed written in music sheets? i dont see it on the clef if i look at sheet music, so where is it actually stated?
and thanks for all the vids. havent had chance to watch them yet but i will. not at the expense of practice time tho 🙂
thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated. wish i had more time to practice, work gets in the way 😀
Major and minor refer to the scale type that the chords come from. Major chords sound happy, minor chords sound sad.
As for note lengths. It’s complicated (but also simple). Notes are written relative to each other. 8ths in different pieces will be played for different lengths but all in the same proportion to the speed of the piece. Sometimes the bpm of the music will be noted but not always. In standard notation there may also be a description of how fast to play, eg slow, moderate or some other description.
I’ve said it before but that’s doesn’t usually stop me from repeating myself. Get signed up to bass buzz. A structured program will help with all this, in the order things matter. Nothing to stop you trying to figure songs out yourself along with it.
Get signed up to bass buzz
Yep, I couldn’t agree more, Beginner to Badass is a fantastic course.
Rather than a dry old lesson, here's Bill Bailey
Get signed up to bass buzz
Yep, I couldn’t agree more, Beginner to Badass is a fantastic course.
Yep, ill do that wednesday on my first day off. dont know why im waiting really as its a lifetime subscription and you get 180 days to ask for a refund if its not for you. just my brain trying to be economical with the days for no logical reason 😀
. This means that you've got the shape of the chord progression which is E major, A Major and B Major.
yes thats right, but altho i get the names of the notes E, A and B, why are they called 'major'? is that just the name for them if theyre not flats or sharps?
They're called Major because they are the chords the guitarist plays. Chords are a number of notes played together. What you are playing are the Roots of those chords. It doesn't actually matter for this song whether they are Major or Minor, because the roots are the same. Dee Dee simply follows the same pattern as the guitar chords.
Now try playing the same pattern on the open A string (A) the open D string (D) and the second fret D string (E) Your ear will tell you it's the same sound (chord progression) only in a different key, which is now A major.
ok, so i get its the same tune, but why is it now called A major? because its an A that starts the riff? simple as that?
Yes, spot on.
Listen to Blitzkrieg Bop and play different notes on the E string until you realise (by ear) that you're playing the same note as the bass. Y
ill try that when next at home. i genuinely think ive got a poor ear for things like that tho and doubt very much ill suss out which note he starts from but ill give it a go 🙂
I think you will surprise yourself. You only need to identify that first note.
thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated. wish i had more time to practice, work gets in the way 😀
ok, so i get its the same tune, but why is it now called A major? because its an A that starts the riff? simple as that?
Yes, spot on.
im sure ill get more used to this as time goes on, but thinking aloud, out of the 3(?) notes in a chord.....
"The A major chord is a triad formed from a root (A), a major third (C♯) and a perfect fifth (E)"
so i play a riff that goes A, C#, E then thats an A major chord. if the riff actually started with the E, so went E, C#, A for instance, is that now an E major chord? why does it have to be called after the first note rather than recognising the different notes played together?
and major thirds and perfect fifths? why not just a third and a fifth?
if the riff actually startedwith the E, so went E, C#, A for instance, is that now an E major chord?
No, an E major chord has the triad E, G#, B.
The chord with A, C# and E is an E major, although people call it an "inversion" - just a different order of combining the three notes of the chord: those 3 notes still sounds nice together in the same way, but also sound a little bit different because the lowest note is now an E.
What matters is the interval (gap) between the three notes, like you said "recognising the different notes played together". In A major the C# is 4 frets above the A, and the E is 7 frets above the A. For the chord of E major you also need a note 4 frets above, from the E that's G#, and 7 frets above the E, that's B.
If you play the chord of A major by starting on the E string at fret 5, then play A string fret 4 and D string fret 2 you have A, C#, E = A major. If you take the same shape of those three notes (relationship between the fret positions) and move it up the E string to start at fret 12, with A string fret 11 and D string fret 9 you now have the chord of E major: the shape of the chord is the same so you will get the same "happy" major sound, but the actual 3 notes (the triad) are different and in this case they are based on E.
why not just a third and a fifth
Because in other chords these notes can be modified, for example in an A minor chord the C# is reduced a fret to become C. So that C is called a minor third to tell it apart from the (major) third C#.
This is all the basic music theory that it is good to learn after you can reliably do the basics of consistently playing specific notes on different strings in time.
Listen to Blitzkrieg Bop and play different notes on the E string until you realise (by ear) that you're playing the same note as the bass. Y
ill try that when next at home. i genuinely think ive got a poor ear for things like that tho and doubt very much ill suss out which note he starts from but ill give it a go
I think you will surprise yourself. You only need to identify that first note.
just got a few minutes to myself at home so gave it a try. im hearing the 5th fret on E string, so open A. with the other notes the 5th and 7th on A string (so E and F#?). is that right?
...... chord stuff. too complex for my little brain at the mo, ill investigate further when im a bit further into my journey.
5th and 7th on A would be D and E
I'd see that as a 1-4-5 progression, being 1st, 4th and 5th notes of the scale (whereas chord is 1-3-5) and 145 is very commonly used. This is where even if you don't know theory, patterns repeat over and over, just change rhythm and you'll recognise a new bass line.
Eg, Rainy Night in Soho; single long notes 145 starting on I think C, and then as song develops it goes to 1-5-1 and then run up the scale to 4/F
just got a few minutes to myself at home so gave it a try. im hearing the 5th fret on E string, so open A. with the other notes the 5th and 7th on A string (so E and F#?). is that right?
Nearly. As theotherjohnv says, it's A D E . But your ear clearly does work despite your misgivings!
...... chord stuff. too complex for my little brain at the mo, ill investigate further when im a bit further into my journey.
Good plan. Others have said concentrate on plucking and fretting cleanly on even repeated notes for the time being. We'll have you playing Hysteria in a couple of weeks... 😉
5th and 7th on A would be D and E
durrr, of course it is, i read the chart wrong, went 7th and 9th. but was i right with the blitzkrieg notes?
I'd see that as a 1-4-5 progression, being 1st, 4th and 5th notes of the scale (whereas chord is 1-3-5) and 145 is very commonly used. This is where even if you don't know theory, patterns repeat over and over, just change rhythm and you'll recognise a new bass line.
nope, not a scooby. give me a few months 🙂
thanks
durrr, of course it is, i read the chart wrong, went 7th and 9th. but was i right with the blitzkrieg notes?
Yep, you were spot on.
Yep, you were spot on.
wow, not often i actually impress myself!
just subscribed to bassbuzz so we'll see how that goes.
ok, guitar set up.....
working my way through the 1st module on bassbuzz and a couple of times hes said to make sure the strings are no further away from the frets than his, and if they are, then get it set up by an expert at a shop. his....
mine.....
if theyre too far out, then it looks fairly simple to bring down a little using an allen key maybe, and then just retune, but am i being naive?
(i'll try these pics to see if they post first, cos ive got all sorts of pop ups coming up saying i need to use the right checkbox to insert in post. ive done that already, but.... you know....)
Ah, you’re getting a long way down the rabbit hole here!
Firstly, the first photo is the clearance of the strings as measured at the 12t h fret. Your pic is of the strings above the bridge pickup.
We’ll start with the top pic. Basically if the clearance is too high you’ll find it harder to fret the notes quickly and cleanly, and at the same time the additional finger pressure will tire you out and hurt your fingers. Too low, and there’s a chance the strings fretted at certain points will foul the higher frets and buzz.
In a proper setup you’d check the clearance with feeler gauges whilst clamping the strings with a capo and fretting where the strings meet the body of the neck. This will indicate whether the neck relief is where it should be. Once you’ve got that bang on you’ll need to check the saddle and neck heights, then the nut channel heights, then the intonation, then ……. It’s complicated and perhaps a step too far for you for the time being.
Sorry to sound patronising, but send us a pic of your strings near the 12th fret from the side. Much more than say 3 or 4mm is too high, but it’s more complicated than just tweaking the saddles.
This guy will talk you through it if you really want to, but my advice is to check that it isn’t so monstrously high that you’ll not want to pick it up and play it, then crack on with BassBuzz (I love Josh’s teaching style by the way)
Sorry to sound patronising, but send us a pic of your strings near the 12th fret from the side. Much more than say 3 or 4mm is too high, but it’s more complicated than just tweaking the saddles.
not patronising at all mate, i appreciate the advice. difficult to take an accurate pic but just measured it at 12th fret and its 7mm.
ill have a watch of that video when i get a few minutes.
thanks
In the first week of getting my bass, I watched some videos on setting the string action and intonation bought some nut files and did it myself, left it slightly higher than recommended just to be safe, redid it again a month later when I was getting more used to it but didn't really need to adjust it much more. It isn't that complicated, the worst part was trying to see the marks on the ruler with my old eyes, I have a digital gauge now because of that but while I have checked it again a couple of times since it hasn't needed readjusting.
The action on my basses tends to be in the 3-4mm range at the 12th fret. I use a lot of dynamic range and play pretty hard at times so if I go any lower I run into fret buzz and choking which I hate!
I think that’s a reasonable height to aim for. With a higher action (like you currently have) it does become notably harder work fretting the notes and it’s harder to stay in tune as you’re high up the neck (and I play a lot of chords). You also get issues with fretted notes being louder than open notes because the string is closer to the pickups (again more of an issue high up the neck).
If you’re happy to take a gentler approach with your right hand, have a bass with very good fretwork and a stable neck, and are willing to adjust trussrods seasonally (depending on your climate) then you can go much lower with action but I don’t think it’s necessary unless you want to head down the super technical tapping & slapping rabbit hole…
I tried a super techy player’s 7 string years ago and the action was so low I couldn’t play it - I’d rather manhandle a double bass!
So I thought I'd step it up a bit and have a crack at Knights of Cydonia, as kind of a gateway drug on the way to Hysteria.
It's a bit of a workout!
Worst thing is, my guitar playing son walked in while I was practicing and I mentioned I'm trying to work my way up to Hysteria. I challenged him to see what he could play of it, and in 10 minutes he was making not a bad attempt. "It's quite tricky" he said as his fingers flashed all over the fretboard.
Worst thing is, my guitar playing son walked in while I was practicing and I mentioned I'm trying to work my way up to Hysteria. I challenged him to see what he could play of it, and in 10 minutes he was making not a bad attempt. "It's quite tricky" he said as his fingers flashed all over the fretboard.
A housemate did a similar thing to me at uni with Waterfalls. He was mostly a pianist and drummer but also played guitar and could read music properly, and just sightread the bloody thing…
Saying that, I might try Hysteria. I was having a go at Stone Cold Bush and slapped 16th notes at 135bpm in the solo is quite hectic!
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
i also liked the look of a little Orange practice amp. anyone got any experience of it, and how it would compare to my borrowed fender rumble 15?
thanks
Neck shape is just personal preference. I prefer a jazz neck and find my chunky vintage style P bass more tiring to play. I’ve even been looking at swapping the neck to a jazz style neck. Sound wise its preference as well. Jazz basses generally sound brighter and you’ve more control over blending the two pick ups to get a different sound. Go full neck pick up and wind the tone down a little and you get a very similar sound to a P bass. You’ll never get a P to sound quite like a jazz. I like mine with both pick ups on full, as I’ve also the P (with flatwounds) for bluesy or Motown stuff.
I wouldn't upgrade the fender amp for the 25 watt orange for now. IMO I would wait until you are more practised and really get an upgrade itch and then go for a 50w (or more) IMO 50w starts to feel more pleasurable as an upgrade to the first practise amp.
Has anyone tried the spark neo headphones? They do bass amp simulation as well as guitar, and they sound like they could stream a lesson from a computer/phone at the same time as being connected to the bass/guitar.
I don't know if it is just me, but I find cables annoying, so really like wireless solutions.
ok chaps, thanks, points noted. oh and......
IMO I would wait until you are more practised and really get an upgrade itch and then go for a 50w (or more)
im getting an upgrade itch already and im only a few days in 😀
Has anyone tried the spark neo headphones? They do bass amp simulation as well as guitar, and they sound like they could stream a lesson from a computer/phone at the same time as being connected to the bass/guitar.
I don't know if it is just me, but I find cables annoying, so really like wireless solutions.
Are they low enough latency? Groove is so time critical so if there’s much delay it’ll throw you off.
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing. Assuming the neck is straight (truss rod tension correct) then you just need to wind down the saddles at the bridge to lower the action, then adjust the intonation. I’m sure there’s lots of info online on how to do that.
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing.
have to make sure i dont get my 'lowers' and 'highers' mixed up when talking about the neck, but i think i know where youre coming from. and its 'lower' (nut end) thats tapered smaller yes. so i wondered if that might help me as when my arms outstretched to the lower frets, its quite awkward to fret the E string with stretched out fingers, so a closer scale might help me there. however, it might make more sense to just get used to it as wide as it can be whilst learning, maybe try and get used to it, or just microshift more rather than stretch awkwardly.
The convention when talking about lower and higher is the pitch rather than the position, which inconveniently is the opposite way around (and is the way some people still refer to things). Higher strings are thinner, higher up the neck is the close together frets near the body.
Down at the nut it’s often comfiest to finger 1-2-4 rather than stretch across four frets 1-2-3-4. If you get your thumb in the middle of the neck and even sometimes closer to the higher strings it’s easier to reach if you’re having to be dexterous down there.
Wearing the bass at quite an angle stops the first fret being so far away, which is why I usually play standing rather than sitting.
Down at the nut it’s often comfiest to finger 1-2-4 rather than stretch across four frets 1-2-3-4.
yeah ill try that. i was really uncomfortable trying to stretch earlier, and was getting fret buzz as my pinkie couldnt quite reach the ideal place on the fret, so i should just make sure comfort comes first i think. probably need to shift more and stretch less, whatever works best.
If you get your thumb in the middle of the neck and even sometimes closer to the higher strings it’s easier to reach if you’re having to be dexterous down there.
tried pushing my thumb further around closer to the G string, but i just end up with my wrist cocked at an awkward angle, even if im stood with the bass angled steeply upwards. i spose at 60, im just not very flexible any more. anywhere! 😀
I spend an awful lot of time playing with my hand wrapped around the neck and my fingers relaxed and close together. If I need to do something super widdly I’ll just shift my thumb and fingers into that classical guitar style position and then relax back again into easy grooving position.
If the nut is too high it makes it much harder down at the first fret, so that’s worth looking at. Bass takes a fair bit of strength to fret the notes cleanly, but not tons, it’s not like trying to hold onto your bars on a long rocky descent!
Take it easy, don’t hurt yourself.
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing. Assuming the neck is straight (truss rod tension correct) then you just need to wind down the saddles at the bridge to lower the action, then adjust the intonation. I’m sure there’s lots of info online on how to do that.
I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now, my 2 week old American professional is anyway, and although wider than my player jag bass (jazz spec neck), it's still managable for my stunted Pinky (my pinky's are about an inch shorter than my ring fingers)
It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body. You can play without using your thumb at all, if you want....the thumb is then more for location as much as being an active part of fretting. You don't need a lot of pinkie strength if you're using your (left) arm, IYSWIM
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now,
hmmmm..... interesting that youve given me the sizes of each, so i just went to check mine. its 1.5" at the nut end! (the nut being that top white line above the 1st fret on the photo below yes?) so is it a jazz neck?
it says precision but its obviously been modded with a new head anyway so whoever did it could have written anything on it.
It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body. You can play without using your thumb at all, if you want....the thumb is then more for location as much as being an active part of fretting. You don't need a lot of pinkie strength if you're using your (left) arm, IYSWIM
short answer is i dont see what you mean at this point, ill practice that mindset tonight when i have another play for a bit.
thanks
Like a seesaw. The pivot point is on your hip / thigh and your fingers are pullin the neck round, counterbalanced by the forearm of your plucking hand.
“It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body.”
If that was truly the case then having your bass on a long strap wouldn’t work, especially when slapping or playing with a pick.
It’s not a pinch but it is a squeeze between the fretting fingers and the thumb or closed hand.
OK, it's not solely a pinch, the arm does some of the work, there are of course exceptions.
video.....
thanks, ill have a play tonight, see if it makes sense to me.
anyways...... looking at that video the guitar seems to be the same width from bridge to nut. mine is tapered, and so at 1.5" at the nut, have i actually got a jazz neck with a P sticker do you think?
“I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now”
You’re quite right! And now I realise my Stingray isn’t 1.75” either but it feels a lot wider than 1.5” (in a good way).
”it says precision”
Fender have quite history of mixing things up with Precisions and Jazzes. The original Mark Hoppus Jazz bass has a P pickup and a P neck - only the body is J shape!
Fender have quite history of mixing things up with Precisions and Jazzes. The original Mark Hoppus Jazz bass has a P pickup and a P neck - only the body is J shape!
not sure if its fender, or whoever swapped it around tbh. what it does highlight tho is that i was thinking of considering a jazz neck to make fretting easier, whereas it looks like im actually at the easiest now! sadly it can only get more difficult if i were to try a regular untapered precision.
Nut width isn’t the only determining factor though. Profile has a lot to do with it. My Vintera P is modelled after a 50’s bass and is fat and round. Others may have the same nut width, but a thinner front to back depth. The shape also changes as well.
P and J only refers to the pick up styles. Neck style varies a lot.
https://images.app.goo.gl/rqnreiwCkhzHyTvF7
Can’t work out how to link, you’ll just need to click.
Yes, my custom five has a wide neck (for the extra string!) but is very shallow from the back with a very flat fretboard. Some old P’s have “baseball bat” necks because they’re super deep and round like holding a baseball bat.
On another note, I finally sorted out my updated pedalboard (and actually cut and painted some plywood to mount it on). It’s big for studio use (unless I can be bothered to hunt down some gigs) and ease of stomping the right switch at the right time. Quite pleased! Need to figure out the new compressor pedal, haven’t used one since the ‘90s…
well i gave that 'no thumb' technique a go and i see what you mean, but i cant really do it, its a lot more difficult.
so much as id like to think i could make life easier for me by doing that, and also stretching fingers more than microshifting, i think at this stage i really need to just do whats 'easiest' for me. its not like theyre bad habits or anything and i can slowly get a little more dexterity the more i play, hopefully.
on module 4 of bassbuzz now. found the first 3 modules really easy, its just starting to ramp up a little with crossing strings now.
Not saying don't use your thumb at all, other than as an exercise, just that the power in the fretting doesn't just come from a vice like grip between thumb and fingers.
i think at this stage i really need to just do whats 'easiest' for me. its not like theyre bad habits or anything and i can slowly get a little more dexterity the more i play, hopefully.
Agreed, this is supposed to be fun and we all want to play recognisable tunes and bass lines rather than endless scales and arpeggios. But just be careful that 'what's easiest' doesn't become bad habits, because while you may get so far by doing the wrong things well, when that runs out you need to unlearn them all again before you can progress again.
But it has to be fun!!!
yeah, funnily enough one of the lessons ive just watched mentioned trying that no thumb technique just for an experiment. and no, ill try to stick to whatever he advises so no bad habits 🙂
I’ll comment on several subjects here because, for me at least this forum is still painfully slow - it’s easier to do it all in one hit.
First - action and setup. This is a very individual thing, of course, but this is how it goes for me........
Neck relief - about 0.1mm with a capo at the first fret and the string held down at the 17th fret. Any further than that, the truss rod isn’t going to adjust anything (unless you have a 26 or 28 fret neck).
Action - (again with a capo at the first fret and measured at the 12th fret). Typically for me around 1.5mm on the G and 1.7mm on the E. My lowest setup is currently 1.35mm on the G and 1.55mm on the E. This is on my Peavey Palaedium, which, to be honest, could go lower than that. Always with D’Addario 45/100 or 45/95 strings, usually NYXL or XT on all my basses, except for TI Jazz Flats on my ‘93 fretless MM Sterling.
Thumb position - it’s simple, if you want the maximum finger span then your thumb has to be either on the thickest part of the neck or slightly towards the treble side. This won’t be optimal further up the neck though, but then you don’t need the span either, up there. I don’t get this practicing without the thumb business - no violinist, cellist or double bass player has ever been told this, so why electric bass players? The thumb *does* balance the pressure of the fingers, or at least in my world it does - like picking up a beer glass or anything you care to name really, and if your bass is properly setup you don’t need much pressure anyway. Try playing double bass without using your thumb........
If you need any inspiration or you really feel that you need to watch tuition-type videos then search out anything and everything that Jeff Berlin has produced. I pretty much guarantee that you’ll learn a lot, in all sorts of ways. Listen to his albums too, especially his latest “Jack Songs”. Listen to his work with Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth - I’ve been fortunate to see him live several times and he is right up there with the very best - along with Brian Bromberg and Stanley Clarke he’s probably my favourite bassist.
Here he is with the slightly annoying Scott Devine https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFV7fKNDjQ&t=703s
One thing he says that is very true - practically all rock and pop bassists are Self Taught...
I’ll have to watch that JB video - despite (or maybe because of) reading his columns in BP mag years ago, and then finally hearing some of his music via streaming/youtube recently I’ve always had him marked down as a fusion noodler who only makes music for other musicians. He often references Jack Bruce as a big influence though which is reassuring.
P.S. I like Scott though! 😉
P.P.S. That’s impressively precise relief and action set-up! I think I have close to zero relief in my necks and the action getting on for twice as high but I do pluck quite hard at times.
I’m not obsessive about setup, to be honest - I just adjust relief, nut height and action until it feels right to me . In other words, close to what I’ve become accustomed to. I just grabbed the Palaedium and measured it, simply because I know that it’ll always have the lowest action and most accurate neck relief of any of my basses - it’s just what it happened to be.
I suppose that I must just like “fusion noodlers” - people like Stanley Clarke, Brian Bromberg, the late Victor Bailey, Larry Klein, Randy Jackson etc etc - plus Jeff Berlin obviously. And, noodlers or not, these guys have more soul and more groove than you, I and anyone else put together. Listen to Victor Bailey with Madonna or Randy Jackson with Jean Luc Ponty - I wish I had it, that indefinable “something”, it’s within them, that’s the only way I can put it.
You’ll notice Jaco isn’t on my list - he just never did it for me, even though I’ve played a lot of fretless over the years. Strange, really.
interesting - I was trying the thumbless thing last night, I found that it's true that I didn't need the thumb for grip pressure as per Adam Neely rationale, but a lack of hand and arm stability means I want it back on there, just need to remember to keep the finger pressure low because you don't need to force it. Interesting that I've also organically moved the thumb to beyond the index not inbetween the index and middle and this allows for a tensionless fret hand/arm (this is making me sound dead pro like and really this isn't the case!)
btw - Adam Neely is brilliant, I love his youtube and I need to go and see his band at some point when they are next in Manchester
One thing he says that is very true - practically all rock and pop bassists are Self Taught...
I think that can be said of most rock and pop musicians.
I’m not obsessive about setup, to be honest - I just adjust relief, nut height and action until it feels right to me . In other words, close to what I’ve become accustomed to. I just grabbed the Palaedium and measured it, simply because I know that it’ll always have the lowest action and most accurate neck relief of any of my basses - it’s just what it happened to be.
I guess that's the same as how I do it - I lower it as low as it can without it buzzing and then usually go too low and have to bring it up a bit more because it's buzzing when I don't want it to (obviously sometimes you want to get fret buzz). And that lands me in this ~3mm region (higher on the low strings, lower on the high strings, because of the excursion).
I suppose that I must just like “fusion noodlers” - people like Stanley Clarke, Brian Bromberg, the late Victor Bailey, Larry Klein, Randy Jackson etc etc - plus Jeff Berlin obviously. And, noodlers or not, these guys have more soul and more groove than you, I and anyone else put together. Listen to Victor Bailey with Madonna or Randy Jackson with Jean Luc Ponty - I wish I had it, that indefinable “something”, it’s within them, that’s the only way I can put it.
Each to their own, but other than Stanley Clarke I've never clicked with the music from those players. Absolutely love Jaco though! But regarding soul and groove, I like what I do on the bass and I feel I express myself deeply through my writing and playing - I'm sure they can play circles around me in a fusion context, especially soloing, but I'm confident of my ability to lay down as deep a groove as any of them, and I don't think I'm completely delusional!
I watched that Jeff Berlin interview this morning and came away thinking that he certainly talks some sense regarding music education (it's all the same stuff from his old Bass Player Magazine columns) but that I don't think much of any of the playing he did, I never felt much pocket happening, so I'd like to listen to some stuff where he's being a sideman and having to play bass bass rather than lead bass. I also think that the risk of such a constrained approach to teaching is that it limits you in your writing because you focus too much on doing what is correct rather than finding things that sound good in interesting ways. I do think it's very effective if your job is to turn up and play the right notes as a backing musician but I've never really wanted to do that...
I was at The Bug Club last night, had a spot right near the front, and was watching Tilly the bassist closely. She's tiny, about 5' and has signed merch for me in the past and has teeny hands, and doesn't hardly stretch at all - most of her fretting is with almost fingers together and lots of hand movement. She'll use forefinger and pinkie to cover sometimes 2 frets where I can cover 3 with index and middle with my mitts.
She's tiny, about 5' and has signed merch for me in the past and has teeny hands, and doesn't hardly stretch at all - most of her fretting is with almost fingers together and lots of hand movement.
It works! It’s a very effective funk technique and it’s also important if you’re running lots of distortion, you have to mute the strings in every way possible.
Back in the ‘90s I bought this video by the legendary Rocco Prestia, one of the greatest funk bassists ever. Check out his technique, both hands!
Had a go at the thumbless technique and it was easier than I expected. Neck control was another thing. Bass was swinging about like on of those inflatable characters outside used car lots on American TV.
Swapped back to my jazz bass after a few weeks on my P with flat wounds. Strings felt like sandpaper in comparison. So much easier to make big jumps around the fretboard though. Severely tempted to get a jazz neck conversion for the P. Love the sound of a classic P on flats, but my hands think otherwise.
went to watch my mates lad last night, his bands 2nd gig 🙂
i was really impressed with them/him, he's self-taught after a bit of a start with his dad. watching him, and the bass player from the next band, it made me realise id like to be able to play with a pick rather than 2 finger plucking. ill obviously keep plucking away as per the bassbuzz course, but the end goal will be using a pick. bit sad but i was fascinated watching him, wondering how he kept hitting the right string with the pick when you cant anchor your thumb 😀
(hopefully the link will work, no idea how to insert it so just copied and pasted the address)
@chiefgrooveguru i also noticed that he was using a Barefaced cab 🙂 of course i told him that ive been getting advice from the owner 😉
I like playing with a pick too, there's something about it, but my god, it starts to sound messy. Much harder to mute the open E with no floating or anchored thumb.
I try to kind of palm mute with the heel\outside edge of my pick hand, but I notice that bass player doing the fret hand thumb mute thing. I see that quite a lot, but find it so awkward. Is that worth pursuing for pick players?
A thing that I’ve never really wanted to do (playing with a pick) and so have never devoted any time to it - plus whenever I’ve tried it I could never get a tone that I liked enough to want to persevere and get better at it.
Anyway, it’s too late for this old dog to learn new tricks - what I really need to do is pare the number of basses that I have down to two or three that I really want to keep around, instead of the (I think) nine that are knocking about the house at the minute. Otherwise, when I shuffle off this mortal coil my poor wife will be left with them to deal with and not really have much idea what to do with them or what they’re worth - mind you, nothing is worth that much these days, I might end up donating them to some young impoverished players.
what I really need to do is pare the number of basses that I have down to two or three that I really want to keep around, instead of the (I think) nine that are knocking about the house at the minute.
what are you selling? 😉
double post
went to watch my mates lad last night, his bands 2nd gig 🙂
@chiefgrooveguru i also noticed that he was using a Barefaced cab 🙂 of course i told him that ive been getting advice from the owner 😉
They’re rocking! I get very excited the rare times I see a Barefaced cab in the wild, although that may be because I don’t get out much due to small children…
If you want to play with a pick I’d stop trying to learn to play with your fingers and concentrate on pick technique. Hardly any punk is fingerstyle so that would match better with your name here! 😉
I hardly ever play bass with a pick but I’ll do fake pick stuff with fingernails (fingernail(s) for downstrokes, thumbnail for upstrokes). Picks aren’t just for rock and metal and punk though - check out Bobby Vega for amazing funk and Steve Swallow for incredible jazz (bebop etc).
This new forum works pretty well on a computer but it’s so hard to post on on a phone!
I’m not sure what I’ll be getting rid of yet, because I haven’t decided what I’m going to keep. There’s a 93 MM Sterling fretless that will have to stay, because my wife bought it for me and it’s a beautiful thing - from back when they still fitted string mutes and could be bothered to recess the neck and battery cover plates.
Other than that they’re all Peavey, apart from the GR Lasido Z1 and a Yamaha BB374FL (both fretless).