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So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.
And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You've now gone down to a 3 X 12, you've sealed it and halved the excursion your drive needs because frequencies - at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.
This is getting silly to quote Grum.
You're sounding like Brant from On-One.
It might work for some, you'll divide the bass thread into Chiefgrooveguru fanbois or haterz just like Brant did.
When you did your guitar cab hype you should really have compared your cab with something comparable, i.e an open back cab of comparable quality. 90% of the advantages you were claiming for your cab are inherent features of open back cabs. So sloping the baffles may help and good luck to you if people try and are convinced, but make a fair comparison. I was genuinely interested until I started walking around my own cabs and the open ones did just what yours did.
What have I done? 🤦♂️
I like modern stuff and I like the cut of @chiefgrooveguru's jib, so I'm going to look at one of his cabs again.
If it's good enough for Nathan King and Lee Voss
Still not sure about the head though 🤔
Jesus wept.
I guess Sound on Sound are just fanboys too eh.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/barefaced-audio-reformer-112
I can see which way this thread is going. Can we keep it fun please?
What have I done?
That's exactly what I thought when I expressed the view that "I" (i.e. a personal view) wouldn't buy a single 10", because I wouldn't and I still won't. 😉
Incidentally in that vid it states clearly you are only hearing the DI, a mix of DI with the mics, or a mix of room and cab mics. Reviews generally flatter smaller cabs because miced up close small cabs sound great but less so in the room. Using the DI only tells you not a lot in a cab review. A fairer review would have been a room mic with one of them shouting/singing along.
Not Barefaced's fault, Anderton's did the vid. The cab no doubt sounds very good, that review does a bad job of convincing anyone who reads what's on the screen and understands what it means. It's one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it. And do they process it? Junior is a music producer, he can make raw tracks that sound really poor sound wonderful.
It’s one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it.
Peter Honore and Nathan used a db meter when they reviewed the bass amp heads
Man who hasn't used the cab in question knows better than the designer of the cab, many happy users with a lifetime of using other cabs, and several professional reviewers of guitar equipment including esteemed magazines like SoS.
Peak STW.
I really should leave this because it has all the hallmarks of past arguments with a certain kind of opinionated older musician being annoyed that I’m telling they’re wrong but not having the humility to appreciate that despite their seniority they could actually learn something. But what the hell, I don’t have a PR department telling me to shut up so I’ll make one final response and then I’ll keep quiet about amplification (maybe).
This is what I said earlier “At a rough guess, one One10 with a single 10CR will move more air than a Marshall 212 guitar cab and possibly closer to a Marshall 412”
I then put up some sums which showed that a One10 can do more than a hypothetical Marshall 312 in the lows. To which this was said:
“So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.”
Anyone who knows anything about speaker design will know that the enclosure is critical when it comes to low frequency analysis. Any resonant enclosure which utilises the back wave from the speakers in the lows effectively doubles the air-moving ability because the front of the speakers moves air and the resonant system flips the phase of the output from the rear of the speakers and then adds that output. It makes a huge difference. A sealed cab does nothing with the rear output, it goes nowhere.
“And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You’ve now gone down to a 3 X 12…”
Because as I said earlier, more than a 2x12”, possibly closer to a 4x12”. In other words, about a 3x12”.
“you’ve sealed it”
I’ve sealed the Marshall cab because that’s how they’re built.
“and halved the excursion your drive needs”
Because it has a resonant system that adds the back wave output to the front wave.
“because frequencies – at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.”
I don’t even understand what this means. If we’re talking about moving air then we’re looking at the bottom two octaves of a standard bass guitar, so ~40-160Hz. Above this our limiting factor is sensitivity x thermal power handling but it’s a rare bass rig that doesn’t hit the LF limit before the broadband output limit, so that’s what I’ve addressed.
I only interjected because someone was being told that they needed a 12” speaker for proper bass sound at home, and the thing is, that remains complete and utter rubbish.
Chiefgrooveguru - did you/do you post on Basschat.co.uk?
Edit: this was typed before Cheifgroveguru's last post and isn't a reply to it:
Thing is I've used 4 x 10 + 1 x 15 Fender. The specific bass cabs in the local shop with upmarket specific bass drivers, and a variety of combos. All that tells me you need a lot of amp power and a lot of driver(s) to have a good solid low down bass sound. The Bareface is by all accounts surprisingly good for a 10", but it's still a 10".
What's wrong with expressing an opinion and encouraging someone to listen before buying?
Having "experts" on a forum can be a plus. We have good ones around, you know may who they are, check out the Covid thread for half a dozen. We've also had controversial ones: Brant, iDave... being dismissive of other poeple's expereince, bragging about their credentials and trying to sell us stuff.
I guess I pissed Chiefgoveguru off, he had a sale then I suggested something a bit more expensive (a 12" without specifying a brand but apart from barefaced there aren't many - I most definitely wasn't trying to influence the OP's choice away from Bareface), then we started talking combos, then I started questioning just how loud a 10" can be at low frequencies when the hype started to get past my tolerance level, then the numbers started flying and the hype went up another level.
There are three subjects I could do credentials bragging on (how's your memory?) but I doubt I've mentionned two of them in years even on specific threads, and I've never promoted anything I've had a commercial interest in.
Now a reply:
What I actually said:
There’s no way I’d spend 1000e on an amp and cab and only have a 10″. I’d want a 12″ driver even for home use just for the feel of playing with a driver that shifts plenty of air.
Which is not the same as:
I only interjected because someone was being told that they needed a 12” speaker for proper bass sound at home, and the thing is, that remains complete and utter rubbish.
I didn't tell anyone to do anything, that's not my style. I wouldn't spend 1000e on a bass amp + cab/combo with a 10" for a home set up. I'd aim for something more balanced between amp and cab in spec. It's like one those familiar questions about what gets the best sound, money in the guitar or money in the amp/cab. A Harley Benton Tele into a boutique amp or a Custom Shop Tele into a harley Benton amp. Somewhere between the two is the best playability/sound compromise.
I don't worry too much about what I plug my bass into at home. If I had nothing I'd look on the local second-hand site for something like a recent Fender Rumble 500. I'm not the OP, I'm not chiefgroveguru, that's just what I'd do. All hypothical and all.
“Chiefgrooveguru – did you/do you post on Basschat.co.uk?”
I used to but the behaviour of a select group of bitter middle-aged and older men attempting to shoot me down for having the audacity to both tell them they’re wrong and have a successful* little business in that sector got too hard for my mental health. There’s nothing like a British success story for bringing out the other Brits who need to “take him down a peg or two”. I post on talkbass now and then because that American-dominated forum doesn’t suffer from the same weird hatred of apparent success or younger people (though I’m less young now!) knowing stuff.
*If your idea of success is still being in business after 13 years and making an ok living doing something you really care about - but not if you’re expecting great riches!
The speaker size thing has annoyed me since I started learning about speaker design. The problem is that the only thing you can really see about a speaker is how big it is, so everyone focuses on that. But look at it like this:
With guitar and bass speakers in gigging gear you’ll mostly encounter 10”, 12” and 15” speakers. That’s only a 50% increase in nominal diameter and a 140% increase in actual area. But you’ll encounter Xmax going from under 2mm to over 10mm (>400% increase), power handling going from about 20W to 600W (almost 3000% increase).
And then there’s all the other parameters like Mms and BL and Le and Cms and Rms etc. They vary by massive percentages. And that’s just LF behaviour, then there’s all the complexity of cone shape and stiffness and damping and dustcap likewise, and surround and spider and voice coil former and magnetic behaviour and thermal behaviour and even the glue joints. It goes on and on and everything makes a difference. And that’s just speakers - enclosures matter tons too.
Talking about speakers by just referring to nominal diameter is barely better informed than talking about bikes or cars by just referring to their colour!
Ah - I think I remember you from around back then. Not been on the site - probably for a good decade or so. I think I know what you’re alluding to. There were a few really decent people on there from what I remember, though. Some very opinionated as well.
Anyway - just to join the thread as a bassist. Just getting back into it again after a long break. Have had a variety of basses over the years, but recently sold my Overwater 5 and picked up a 4-string jazz to get going again.
Keep it up - if it works, it works. Beauty in the ear of the beholder and all that. My favourite tone I ever has was from a highly stressed Ashdown ABM powering a Schroeder 1210 at full tilt as we’d run out of XLR cables to DI with 😂. I appreciate that it wouldn’t have been to everyone’s tonal taste…
“I guess I pissed Chiefgoveguru off, he had a sale then I suggested something a bit more expensive”
Hard though this may be to believe, the thing that annoyed me was your anecdotal evidence regarding nominal diameter being passed off as fact.
I was excited about this thread because I wanted to talk about bass playing and writing music, not because I’m desperately hunting for customers. I love it when people’s research (and budget) leads them to us because I honestly believe we’re making some of the very best bass and guitar cabs that have ever been made. I like to try to spread the knowledge and you can do with it what you will. Obviously you may think that’s an elaborate Machiavellian marketing strategy and if so then I’ll just pretend that it is indeed a very cunning plan…
Did anyone listen to that song foundation (that’s what I call the bass parts I build songs on) that I posted a while back? I’m bored of speakers, that’s my job!
“ There were a few really decent people on there from what I remember, though.”
A lot of really decent people and I miss interacting with many of them. Bass forums are lovely places much of the time - just don’t start a UK business when you’re a Brit posting on a UK forum, whatever your market sector, the trolls are like moths to a lamp!
This is the one that gets me:
“and halved the excursion your drive needs”
Because it has a resonant system that adds the back wave output to the front wave.
No amount of clever baffles and ports is going to double the sound energy going forward. I fully understand what your aiming at but you are never going to get all the sound waves going out of the back of the driver to go forward and in phase in such a way that the sound energy going forward is doubled. There will be dispersion, absorbtion and some cancellation however clever your design. Why claim an implausible doubling when you could present something more realistic perhaps obtained by measurement?
Refering to anyone who finds your claims implausible as a troll, bitter middles-aged old men really isn't going to make friends and influence people.
There are owners of: an art stall, bike shops, outdoor center, language school, flower shop... who get on fine here - teachers come in for some abuse though.
I did listen to your soundcloud, Chiefgroveguru. I didn't comment like most people. A Youtube on the guitar threads generally gets about 20 hits straight within a day of a link from here but there are sometimes zero comments and usually only one or two. Myself and Simon are the most prolific, neither of us does perfection, I just post what I'm doing to add interest to the thread, I think Simon does the same, we ain't Hendrix. There are some proper guitar heroes on here who occasionally put something up but even then comments are few and restrained. I think all that shows social skills, everyone welcome to post, most people keep their thoughts to themselves, a few comments. It's not unusual, you'll find everything abot Telecasters on the Telecaster forum except people actually playing the things and if ever they do it'll be "nice Tele". I wouldn't come here to ask for criticism either constructive or destructive - people are too nice, even the bitter middle-aged old men.
“ No amount of clever baffles and ports is going to double the sound energy going forward. I fully understand what your aiming at but you are never going to get all the sound waves going out of the back of the driver to go forward and in phase in such a way that the sound energy going forward is doubled. There will be dispersion, absorbtion and some cancellation however clever your design. Why claim an implausible doubling when you could present something more realistic perhaps obtained by measurement?”
This is how all ported speakers work, it’s nothing new. Same for passive radiators and open-ended transmission lines. When properly executed, all these designs can move twice as much air at low frequencies as sealed cabs. It’s not an implausible claim, it’s just the norm.
Open-backed aka open baffle cabs swing the other way vs sealed cabs - rather than keeping the backwave contained so it doesn’t do anything, the backwave escapes and partially cancels the front wave. Total disaster for low frequency output and efficiency (although it can sound very good for home audio with loads of amp power and speaker volume displacement).
You aren't going to give an inch are you, Chiefgroveguru? You're standing by doubling so far. Why? This is your cross, I'm not a speaker designer going out on a leg on rather ambitious claim.
We all know what happens when we wire stereo speakers out of phase, there is some cancelling but the sound isn't halved, it's louder but not twice as loud in phase. Some frequencies suffer more than others. Out of phase is louder than only one driver, somewhere between one on its own and two.
Junior has produced some techno albums and talked me through some of what he was doing. The albums get played in clubs and the bass needs to sound really good - the low bass is mono. Below a certain frequency the cancellation of some of the freqencies makes the sound patchy, they are slightly louder in some places than others due to cancellation - so they use mono to avoid the problem. He did me a demo in the studio, the adding and cancelling did indeed perceptibly change volume of some fequencies, but half or double, no.
There are bass ports on my stero speakers. They come with bungs. With or without bungs makes little difference.
Another example, car induction sytems. You can use the resonant standing waves in the inlet tract to increase the pressure of admission and improve scavenging of exhaust. This works at some rpm but not at others, you gain power at some revs but lose at others. In your speaker cab if a reflection dimension allows you to reinforce some frequencies it'll decrease others.
Bed time.
There’s a large pile of basics you don’t understand about acoustics, which is why this is proving such a painful discussion:
“We all know what happens when we wire stereo speakers out of phase, there is some cancelling but the sound isn’t halved, it’s louder but not twice as loud in phase.”
Mistake 1: You’re talking about broadband output, I’m talking about low frequencies as they’re the limiting factor with bass.
Mistake 2: A doubling of output does not sound like a doubling of loudness because the human ear has logarithmic response to SPL. You need a tenfold increase in output to have a perceived doubling of output.
Anyway, this is why I don’t spend time discussing speakers on forums anymore. It’s a waste of my time to try to argue with one person when I don’t know their level of expertise and understanding.
Just stumbled on this thread and not sure I understand a lot of what’s been said so far!!
Anywho, my eldest started learning the guitar and having always fancied giving it a go I said I’d learn the bass at the same time.
That was Sept 19 and one of us is still playing 🙄
I’ve not much of a clue on the theories etc but I’ve got rhythm and have been using tabs to pick up songs I like - with varying degrees of success. Got Mr Brightside nailed this week.
Kit wise I’ve an Ibanez SR370E (in lovely whisky burst) and a Fender Rumble amp.
Did anyone listen to that song foundation (that’s what I call the bass parts I build songs on) that I posted a while back? I’m bored of speakers, that’s my job!
I did! Didn't post at the time because I was away, but it's an interesting piece. The sense of building drama (menace even) works well as you work up through the modulations/key changes. The urgency in the repeating riff adds to that, and even the string squeak forms part of the feel to it. I like it because it works like a classical piece.....it would be great with some orchestral add-ins.
Those two open E's are definite anomalies ......... but work in context to an extent. My mind/ear wants to hear why you play them....... in other words are they a feature you're going to build into the whole piece (ie a developing theme) , or do they remain as they are, a bit of a puzzle?
what a shame, that a nice positive thread about basses has turned into a peak STW knobend-fest, some people (mentioning no names) really need to realize that in their desperate need to shout loudest and be the most correct, (even if their understanding of acoustics and A-weighted decibels and SPL are bit iffy) that any points have interest are just lost in haze of noise and seen by most others as just endless "blah-blah-blah-dickhead"
Got Mr Brightside nailed this week.
That song is my nemesis. It's such an iconic sound I love and I just can't get it sounding good (the guitar part, anyway). Kudos.
I'm debating buying a cheap bass. I've been messing around using a guitar to do bass parts for some loops I've been working on - nothing major, just for fun. How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver. I realise this sort of comparison will probably upset a lot of bass players! Or maybe I should get a Baritone 6-string. Half way house? Or worst of both worlds? I'm running it into a Helix (with bass amp sim) so it's oney the guitar I need (not a cab 🙈). My wife would probably kill me either way.
Any Scott's Bass Lessons students on here - I see there's a promo with $50 a year off the sub and I'm tempted. I have a teacher that I see half an hour a week, but I'm wondering if SBL would be good for just doing a quick lesson when I have 30 mins free?
On the same theme, anyone using the Beginner to Badass course?
I’m debating buying a cheap bass. I’ve been messing around using a guitar to do bass parts for some loops I’ve been working on – nothing major, just for fun. How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver. I realise this sort of comparison will probably upset a lot of bass players! Or maybe I should get a Baritone 6-string. Half way house? Or worst of both worlds? I’m running it into a Helix (with bass amp sim) so it’s oney the guitar I need (not a cab 🙈). My wife would probably kill me either way.
I'd just keep an eye out for something on Gumtree or Facebook Marketplace. You can usually pick up a Squire Jazz or P for around £150 or Ibanez/Yamaha a bit cheaper. That's how the ride down the slippery slope of BGAS starts 🙂
How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver.
Worlds apart........ a bass is set up to be played essentially one string at a time, and the way you play it has a spectrum of techniques that gives a spectrum of tones and "feel". You can replicate the notes, but not the overall effect. You've mentioned Squier basses, and they're fantastic value options.... but don't buy a P bass until you've tried a J Bass alongside it.
If you're only after a bass to DI into your recording then as long as the thing holds tuning and intonation there are thousands of really cheap options out there (Harley Benton springs to mind)
Don't forget that N+1 is even worse with guitars......
Any Scott’s Bass Lessons students on here
I did it for a year. It's worth a look but it's very in depth and there's a lifetime's worth of lessons on there. I found that the basic stuff was very basic and all the interesting stuff was way over my head as a complete beginner.
For me, I found there was no point going overboard on the theory and trying to memorize a lot of information before you can actually play. I really struggled to concentrate on both the exercises and the knowledge while struggling to physically play it.
I went away from it to just play for fun and try to get some speed and dexterity built up. I've mentioned Yousician earlier but you might have missed it amongst the pissing contest. That's great for just building speed and accuracy and I can mostly do an impression now of someone who can play along with some very tricky tunes.
I'll definitely go back to SBL when I've got time to concentrate on the lessons. With a young baby in the house I've really gone backwards in the last few months.
I’m debating buying a cheap bass.
"How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver."
Loads of tonal differences but I think the dominant one is that there's a really different shape to the note envelope, loads more punch and thump from a real bass. I suspect you'll also find quite a different change in mindset when playing a bigger instrument with thicker strings and more string tension (and you don't have to worry about the octaver failing to track!)
The joy of the P-bass is that it's not expensive to build a great sounding one, just needs a stiff wood for the neck, a resonant wood for the body, and a simple passive pickup. The one we have for testing/demoing was someone's DIY project, didn't cost a lot, sounds great! Buy a secondhand one like that and if you find you don't play it you'll move it on with minimal/no loss.
I'd argue that a great Jazz bass is harder to do on the cheap - the sound has a wider bandwidth with more highs available and with both pickups on full the more subdued mids means you need more growl or texture through those harmonics to stop it getting lost in the mix, plus the slimmer neck needs better wood to have the stiffness of the Precision's chunky neck. Also because the P-pickup is split you can adjust the string to string balance precisely whilst with the J-pickup you're reliant on the poles and windings being correct and suiting your string choices and action.
Thanks, I have Fender Play, as well, but I think I'll have a look at Yousician as well (sounds like a scouse word).
"The urgency in the repeating riff adds to that, and even the string squeak forms part of the feel to it. I like it because it works like a classical piece…..it would be great with some orchestral add-ins."
Thanks for listening/commenting! It's actually part of the massive pile of songs in various states of completion I have for a new project that was just getting going as the last lockdown hit and then more recently I've been doing a lot of building works on our studio at work so that's been out of action. It's going to be just bass, drums and vocals, with the bass an electric one (not this acoustic bass), a load of FX to add texture, and the vocals layered with plenty of harmonies to fill things out. Hopefully it'll sound good, it's a new direction for me to have to fill quite so much space with the bass. It's reassuring that the strings squeaks aren't too problematic - they'll be much much much quieter with my StingRay but they probably won't be totally inaudible.
"Those two open E’s are definite anomalies ……… but work in context to an extent. My mind/ear wants to hear why you play them……. in other words are they a feature you’re going to build into the whole piece (ie a developing theme) , or do they remain as they are, a bit of a puzzle?"
The bouncy chorus section that this ends with is also how the piece starts - it feels right to me but I know I'm weirdly tolerant of dissonance! Will see what my vocalist says, she's more consonant for sure. Actually it starts with the chorus changes but basically played quietly in 8th note roots, and then a crescendo to the loud chorus riff. Then it quietens down when it changes into the first part of this recording, and then the tension (and loudness?) builds, as you've observed. If that makes sense?!
i use scott's bass lessons. there is literally a lifetime's worth of stuff on there. considering the quality of the material on there i don't feel the price is unreasonable. however, you've got to put the time in to get the results, shock horror.
a key consideration with learning anything, including bass, is being focused on improving one thing at a time. don't dip in and out of loads of different things at once, however tempting it is.
the other thing is starting at the beginning. i've been playing for 20 years and am currently doing the 26 week accelerator course (its a standalone thing outside the standard subscription). it starts with the proper basics (a month of right hand exercises!), so its tough going at times. however, nobody is above this stuff, and it makes you a better player. even after just a month of it i feel like i'm playing with much better consistency. sadly i think he only opens that course once a year or so but keep an eye out for the next one.
this is the way musical instruments should be taught - give people the tools to build solid technique above all else, then hang everything else off that. wish i'd done it years ago.
If you want to play along with an app I can highly recommend Yousician. It made the biggest, fastest difference to my playing that I’ve ever achieved. It’s simple, repetitive and quite addictive. If you sit down and play for 2 hours, that’s 2 hours of actual playing, not 90 minutes of surfing Youtube and 30 minutes of playing along to tabs.
Cheers, will have a look
For online lessons, take a look at Jim Stinnet’s ‘real bass lessons’
He sadly passed away earlier in the year, but has a wealth of free lessons online. He was a professor of music at Berklee and taught YouTube virtuoso Charles Bertroud.
Always smiling and a real passion for the bass. Rip Jim.
Nice on Mudmuncher, I've wondered about where would be a good point to get started on proper bass techniques rather than just guessing, that looks spot on
The amp issue is sorted (for now). I'm picking up a Fender Rumble 500 V3 500-Watt Bass Amp Head and a Fender Rumble 115 V3 Bass Cabinet for a price it would be rude not to.
I'm still tempted by one of @Chiefgrooveguru's cabs though 🤔
I used to play in my teens and early twenties but was never any good. Had a Fender jazz and loved playing funk more than anything else. Hence the username! Keep thinking about picking up a cheap acoustic and just messing about.
I meant a really basic knowledge, like how to find the root of the key and where to find the roots of the other chords in the key.
That reminds me of the Mudhoney story. Someone, can’t recall who, asked to jam with them and said “what key are you playing in” the baffled response from (I think) Mark Arm was “What’s a key?”
All the cool kids pretend they don't know any music theory. It's like a badge of honour.
I work with a guitarist who scoffs at the very idea of taking lessons or learning theory. But, I've seen him in conversation with his band mates and he knows it inside out.
I don't know how you could ever get anything done if you knew literally nothing. How would you control a full group of people who all knew nothing other than playing random notes?
Some pretty wise words on music theory from bass legend Victor Wooten that’s worth a listen
Jump to 3m30 onwards…
That's an interesting video, I'll be watching that again.
I wish I knew more about the theory, but as said that doesn't mean you can play. It's like language; and the mistakes we do and don't make when teaching language.
When we're little kids we just pick it up. We improvise, we use what we have and we see what fits together to get the effect we want. The words, the volume, etc., all by trial and error and gradually we refine it and get better at it so we start to more closely mirror what is accepted as proper use of language. And instinctively we learn stuff like when to use flowery language, and when an expletive is and isn't useful to create an effect....
When we're older they give us a text book and teach us vocabulary and subject verb object, and don't forget that the genetive case has to follow the use of that preposition which means you need to add an 'S' on the object and the verb must always be second position in the sentance unless in certain cases where it has to go to the end....and no-one's got a clue how to make it work.
In music there's only 12 notes but an infinite way you can put them together once you consider timing, volume (and the instruments you use to put them together). And then an acceptance, that certain things go well together and certain things don't. That major chords are happy and minor chords sound more dangerous. It should be way easier compared to the average adult who knows 25-30K words. I'm astounded actually that we haven't run out of tunes, and that you can hear a few notes (no vocal) of a new tune and 'know' that's a Beatles or a Stone Roses or a whoever song even if you haven't heard it before.
So do we do it like kids, try it out and see which pairs and sets of notes work well and which make us wince. Or try to understand how it all fits together. I wonder if there is an optimal time to learn music but I suspect it's before 52 - I suspect it's similar age where kids sing nursery rhymes together and understand scales and so on from there. They instinctively know what notes are in each scale, or what the IV or V is from a root note, even if they don't know what IV or V means.
But how do I teach my fingers what my head seems to know.......
But how do I teach my fingers what my head seems to know…….
That will come with time.
I took the bass up in later life around 5 years ago. I started out using tabs and was learning and memorising songs in a mechanical way. Ie learning what frets/strings to press, consequently I really struggled to hold more than a few songs in my head at anytime. Over the years my brain has gradually adapted so I’m learning the actual bass line in my head and I’m getting to the point where I don’t have to think so much about what fret/string to play, it just kind of happens subconsciously. I still do need to initially learn what frets to play but this is made much easier by hearing the music in my head and sometimes I’ll be playing a song and realise I’m playing the bass line on a completely different string/position on the neck than what I have learnt because I’m recalling the bass line rather than what frets to press.
The biggest tip I can give if you want to get better is to join a band and start playing with other people. I had a couple of years of slow progress playing alone at home, but my skills went up another level within a few months of joining a band.
The biggest tip I can give if you want to get better is to join a band and start playing with other people. I had a couple of years of slow progress playing alone at home, but my skills went up another level within a few months of joining a band.
That's what I'd like to do eventually. I know a drummer who lives in my street who's been badgering me to play with him. The trouble is I know he's very good and I'm a total amateur. It won't be much fun for him when he hears my slow motion noodling.
I've never played outside my own living room yet. Any tips for jamming with a drummer for the first time?
I’ve never played outside my own living room yet. Any tips for jamming with a drummer for the first time?
To be honest, he probably just wants to hang out. I remember bashing out power chords with a band in my teens. I'm sure it sounded terrible but it was good to hang out with mates. A bit like going for a ride with a friendly who's new to MTB. They might not be up to your level of skill, but you can both enjoy it for what it is.
I started out using tabs and was learning and memorising songs in a mechanical way. Ie learning what frets/strings to press, consequently I really struggled to hold more than a few songs in my head at anytime.
God, this is so true. I spent YEARS learning tabs and being a very mediocre guitarist (but being able to play a few cool tunes). Now I have done a bit of formal reading and can understand keys/scales/harmony a bit more, I'm a slightly less mediocre guitarist! Although this is the bass thread, and I'm only here to be nosy, I'm sure it's the same thing.
In music there’s only 12 notes but an infinite way you can put them together*
This guy has copyrighted all the melodies (but not for the reason you might think).
* I know you actually caveated that statement, but it was an excuse to post a sort-of relevant interesting video.
"Some pretty wise words on music theory from bass legend Victor Wooten that’s worth a listen"
This is a great video! Victor is as brilliant a teacher as he is a bassist!
The points about theory being like tools that you use only when you need to and that right or wrong notes being all about context, everyone needs to remember that.
When I write stuff it often starts from almost random noodling and I just go where my head/ears/fingers take me - but if I get stuck then some theory gets thrown at it.
Listen to some bebop or some Motown and you'll hear so many bass notes that aren't in the key or the chord that's being played. But they work because of context.
"I’ve never played outside my own living room yet. Any tips for jamming with a drummer for the first time?"
Jamming with just a drummer is the best, especially if you're a beginner. You can barely play a wrong note because you're the only pitched instrument. Ask him what he's into or tell him what you're into and go in armed with a load of basslines/riffs you've learnt (or make up some of your own but that might be quite a big step). If you're used to playing along with recordings, try playing along with just a drum beat (I'm sure there's stuff on the web for that), or a metronome, or just own your own (and focus on making a groove happen).
Don't be scared, it's fun and you'll learn tons. The most important thing when playing with just a drummer is to keep grooving, don't worry about the notes, he won't care, he just won't want you to stop mid-groove!
The drummer I know is a Jojo Mayer fanatic but he's currently in a band that plays really slow, ambient, droney stuff and he finds it boring. He really wants to attempt some D&B, jungle style stuff which sounds great to me.
I'll just go in with a few butchered Rage riffs and a minor pentatonic and do my best.
I can actually practice in advance as the virtual drummers on Garageband are great.
That’s what I’d like to do eventually. I know a drummer who lives in my street who’s been badgering me to play with him. The trouble is I know he’s very good and I’m a total amateur. It won’t be much fun for him when he hears my slow motion noodling.
I’ve never played outside my own living room yet. Any tips for jamming with a drummer for the first time?
The key thing to remember is the bass is a rhythmical instrument, you can kind of think of it as drums with pitch, so you should focus on locking in with him and getting a good groove going.
You won’t impress a drummer flying up and down the neck with hundreds of notes, much better to play a simple repetitive groove that is really locked in. Trust me, if you nail that you can play the simplest repetitive line for hours on end and neither of you will get bored.
If you want to practice just type drum backing track with the bpm you want in YouTube, there are loads available.
"You won’t impress a drummer flying up and down the neck with hundreds of notes, much better to play a simple repetitive groove that is really locked in."
This, this, THIS! You can also replace drummer with band, engineer, producer, singer, audience, in fact anything other than the phrase "other people who play that instrument who are browsing instagram".
Interesting that that Victor Wooten guy up there ^^^ said playing the bass well was to make other members of the band sound good.
That’s one of the reasons I love the bass so much. Some of the grooviest, downright dirty bass lines of all time only consist of a few notes or are just one line with little variations. Doesn’t need to be complicated and still sounds absolutely fantastic.
Interesting that that Victor Wooten guy up there ^^^ said playing the bass well was to make other members of the band sound good.
Yeah I've never been in a band but I've always thought that all music is drums and bass. Everything else is garnish. If the beats and the booms sound good, then that's the platform that everyone else builds on. Let them show off and hog the limelight. We know who's doing the heavy lifting!
This thread is great.
I'll introduce myself. I'm Sam and have played bass since mid teens... I all but stopped mid twenties but have recently (past three/ four years) got back into bass in a big way. My favourite bass players, in no particular order are as follows:
Jaco Pastorius
Les Claypool
Steve Bailey
James Jamerson and Caroline Kaye
Flea
Victor Bailey
Kinga Glyk
Bakithi Kumalo
(basically all the classics when you google 'great bass players')
I'm currently studying for my grade 5... in bass and grade one in vocals. Currently I'm looking to join a band in the Huddersfield(ish) area (I live in Holmfirth).
My gear is a follows:
Fender American Deluxe V Jazz
Yamaha TRB 1006j
Fender MIJ Limited collection Jazz
Squire Classic Vibe Fretless
Fender 1987 MIJ P bass
Trace Elliott GP7 SM head with SWR 1 x 15 cab.
I'm looking forward to many a discussion on here...
Waves to Sam 👋
Trace Elliott GP7 SM head with SWR 1 x 15 cab.
Sounds loud! I approve 🙂
It sure is loud...
I like this video by Victor Wooten....
I like how he emphasises the importance of feeling..... i've been trying to remember this mantra 'feeling is where it's at' ... 'play less techniques and more music'
I’m currently studying for my grade 5… in bass and grade one in vocals. Currently I’m looking to join a band in the Huddersfield(ish) area (I live in Holmfirth).
Hi @sam3000
I'm also studying for G5 bass. Which songs have you done so far? Heartbreaker is the one I'm on at the moment.
waves from Scapegoat Hill.....
Hi Scapegoat.....
I'm currently working through 'Get Lucky'- Daft Punk and 'September' - Earth Wind and Fire. I haven't decided on the other yet. I haven't entered for the other grades before, however I have the theoretical knowledge to pass 6/7/8 in theory), I just wanted to start within my comfort zone. I'm going to do the assessment with three pieces and theory content rather than 5 performance pieces.
If you're in Scapegoat, chances are we've ridden together, perhaps around the CVMBC route.
Is anyone on here going to the Uk Bass Guitar show in Liverpool in April?
I’ve never been..
is it worthwhile going?
I’m always in the market for a new bass, or two, or maybe a new amp/ cab.
Hi Sam
Must be a different syllabus.... I'm doing Led Zep's Heartbreaker and Tame Impala's Cause I'm a Man from the Trinity College Rock n Pop Bass book so far ..
Yeah, I did the CVMBC and the Holme Valley several times, so no doubt our paths have crossed.
Hi @sam3000
I’m currently working through ‘Get Lucky’- Daft Punk
How does this work in music grading exams - do you have to work out the base line yourself or play a pre written one, or what? I been playing on and off since 1976 and never done a music exam, but always wondered about it.
I've just had to play Get Lucky at gig last weekend and found there were loads of different tab, notation and you tube videos on it - all very diferent to each other and none of them that much like the acutal bass line. So what do you play to it?
Hi J-R
The Trinity College course comes with a book with a election of songs/pieces. Buying the book gives you an access code for the songs in the approved list. You can stream or download the backing track and a demo track to practise and then you need to play to the backing track in the exam.
The book comes with a score for each song, with musical notation and a tab version for each. The bass lines for each are kinda simplified for the exam.... for example Led Zep's Heartbreaker has a simplified passage where Jones in the original plays a series of slides A-C, with an occasional mixture of passing or grace notes on the way back down between bars, but in the Trinity track and score these are left as simple slides and a rest. They've also swapped an instrumental passage and the guitar solo around, and tell you to improv
The TAB is a bit naff. It would help a player who can't read music, sort of, but I do an amount of accompaniment which means I like to read the notes and decide where to play them depending on the most efficient or intuitive positions to play passages or riffs and licks.
Tabs have the advantage of being very easy to write down/type even if you can read music. A good tab wil get you very close to a score.
Finding efficient intuitive positions is really easy on a bass where you have all four strings tuned in fourths. If you want to play a note on the next lower string it's five frets up. If you want an octave up it's two strings higher and two frets up, or just 12 frets up on the same string obviously. If you don't like the tab, modify it. I've been doing a lot of this recently as I've been playing tunes on a guitar with a 14th fret neck joint that I usually play on a guitar with a cut away. There's a limit to playing lead on bass because of the lack of octaves.
Neither tabs nor the music score are a substitute for listening to the original or a version you like. Better still, take the score/tab as a start point and make it yours. I'm no good at that myself but love it when an artist takes a piece and turns it into something else whilst using the same notes.
I'm using the Trinity books. I'm up to Grade 4, I like the mix of songs and that there are 2 versions of the backing tracks - with and without the bass parts.
Thanks Scapegoat, I never knew about that. I’ll get one of their books and have a go.
Neither tabs nor the music score are a substitute for listening to the original or a version you like. Better still, take the score/tab as a start point and make it yours. I’m no good at that myself but love it when an artist takes a piece and turns it into something else whilst using the same notes.
That's the joy of it. A lot of the stuff I'm playing was written for simple guitar chords and the basslines are often just the chord roots with a rhythm, or even simpler, all I get to see is the chord charts and the vocal score. That means I can find or set up a backing track and turn it into something more interesting.
Other scores however are written or arranged by a mate who will include a written bass line, and these are more fun/challenging. Even those can be manipulated ..... I can simplify them if he's got carried away beyond my skill-level, or I can play around and find a fun bridge, or a lick or fill that adds to the piece.
Tabs have the advantage of being very easy to write down/type even if you can read music. A good tab will get you very close to a score.
Of course, and I've learnt a whole lot of stuff using them. Musical notation has the advantage of rhythm, which a tab-only player would have to listen to the real thing to get a feel of. I've been sight-reading for voice since I was a child so feel perfectly at home with either method.
I sold my Fender Mustang Short Scale last weekend, and almost immediately regretted it.
I wanted to try something different from the usual Fender/Squire offerings in short scale offerings.
The G&L Tribute Fallout Short Scale from Andertons looks interesting, but the Lobster review isn't great. The Sterling shorty stingrays are hard to come by and not cheap at just less than £700. I'd really like a Chowny SWB signature short scale, but they are also OOS everywhere.
So I finally settled on a SIRE Marcus Miller U5 in natural from BAX who had a B stock (returned item) available.
Roll on Wednesday!
PS Anyone want to buy one of these at a reasonable price
https://www.fender.com/en-GB/electric-basses/jazz-bass/vintera-60s-jazz-bass/0149633304.html
One of these is also on the list - not sure I can get my head around the buttons though
A mate of mine has just announced that he has a gorgeous USA origin J-Bass in sunburst tha'ts sat there doing nothing, he says he's thinking of selling it but has offered to lend it to me.. sneaky bugger.
Will be interesting to see how it feels compared to my trusty Japanese P, suspect with my meaty paws and love of chunky thunderousness I'm a P-bass man at heart but it certainly can't hurt to have a go..... can it?
Defo can’t hurt 😀
So, I seem to have an escalating pedalboard situation! This is what happens when you have the bright/mad idea of not having a guitarist in your band and thus have a LOT of sonic space to fill with a bass guitar.
The current board is:
Barefaced Machinist (parallel fuzz/distortion with clean blend)
MXR M82 Bass Envelope Filter
Earthquaker Devices Grand Orbiter (phase/vibrato)
Earthquaker Devices Hummingbird (tremolo)
Barefaced Machinist (yes, two of them!)
However, I've found a Boss Delay pedal here, which I think might be good for more textural stuff, adding space etc. And I've got a Hamstead Subspace overdrive pedal here which could add some colour before the modulation pedals. And I've realised that I can't switch sound quickly enough without adding a loop switcher. So the next plan involves a DIY three way switcher, with the switches in a triangle so I can hit any 1, 2 or 3 in one go. And then buying some more pedals for textural (often chordal) stuff - having done a bit of hunting it seems these MXR ones are solid choices for bass chorus/flange/reverb but am open to suggestions!
Like this:
Loop 1:
Barefaced Machinist
MXR M82 Bass Envelope Filter
Loop 2:
Hamstead Subspace (overdrive-distortion but has clean EQ too)
MXR Bass Chorus Deluxe (also has a flanger on it)
Earthquaker Devices Grand Orbiter (phase/vibrato)
Earthquaker Devices Hummingbird (tremolo)
Boss Delay
MXR M300 Reverb (I know, a reverb pedal on bass?!)
Loop 3:
Barefaced Machinist
As I've been writing everything on my acoustic bass guitar at home (and imagining the FX!) it's going to take quite a while for me to get used to pedalboard tap-dancing again!
Right, I marched into the local guitar shop this morning determined to buy this 70's style walnut brown P bass. I've wanted one for ages and this is the first time I've seen one in the flesh. Plays nice, sounds mint, and they offered me a trade in on a 20 year old Washburn which I had zero love for. Done deal.
The only problem was it was sitting next to this...
This picture was taken in my living room. I had to have it!
It's a 50's style whatever that means. Apart from the slightly wider neck I couldn't see a difference. The bold white paint and anodised gold plate totally sucked me in. It makes the brown version look a little pedestrian.
With the tone rolled off it makes an incredible fat, dull, thudding sound. With it on it makes an acceptable growl.
So yeah, pretty happy with it. Now that our new arrival is sleeping better and we don't feel like the walking dead every day, I want to get back into a regular practice routine. I might even go wild and post a video.
A couple of things...
How do you fix fret buzz? Is it purely related the string height, and do they just need winding up a little?
Also any tips on sanding the super glossy finish off the neck? They showed me a second hand Fender in the shop where the owner has sanded it down and it felt lovely. Mine is incredibly glossy and quite sticky but how hard is the finish? Just checking before I attack it with the scotchbrite or wet n dry.
I've successfully used 3M 784 P400, used wet very gently in line with the neck. It only takes a couple of minutes.
Edit: I tried it on other surfaces first!
Fret buzz on a bass, check neck relief first.
Fret buzz on a bass could be so many things, so check out the videos on Youtube telling you how to set it up. You'll need a string height gauge or a decent steel ruler, and the right allen key for the truss rod. Start with truss rod, then go onto bridge saddle height, check the nut height and finally go for the intonation and pickup heights. You should be able to find a list of "standard" measurements for your Squier, but if not go with Fender setup recommendations.
I went with this guy's 4 part videos.
When you're adjusting the saddles put some wood glue on the threads. Every Squier bass I've played has suffered saddles that descend when playing.
Nice wee beastie you have there.
Thanks to another 'Oh I have a bass I'm not using' conversation I've inadvertently obtained a 2nd bass in the form of a glorious mid-80's vintage USA Jazz bass in Sienna Sunburst.
It's a lovely lovely bit of kit but... here's the thing. I think I prefer my trusty Japanese P, the Jazz's dual pick-ups are fun to twiddle with and the bridge pickup gives a nice parpy tone for fingerstyle funk stuff. just can't seem to get the chunkiness that I can wring out of the P.
Adding to this; I took the flatwounds off the P and fitted Dunlop Lemmy stainless steel rounds, wow, huge difference in tone, much brighter and growlier, they take overdrive much better, a big step forward in what I was after, in a perfect world I'd have both and put flats on the Jazz bass but that may be grounds for divorce.
The tone from a p can never be under estimated. My American Pro Fender P is a beautiful thing with amazing tone through the rumble 500 amp. I just wish the neck was a little slimmer.
I sold my fender mim jazz bass and I’m replacing it with a sandberg tt Electra. If that’s as lovely as I’m expecting then I’ll be chopping the p bass in for the sandberg equivalent too.
The Sandbergs are lovely looking bits of kit, the Californias in particular, like the option for an added Music Man style bridge pickup.
I liked this post by Ed Friedland many years ago on the old Bass Player Mag forum:
“ To my way of thinking, the difference between a P and J bass goes way beyond the physical. Yes, P bass - fatter neck (usually), split pickup, chunkier tone, less highs. J bass - slimmer neck, easier to play, dual pickups, more note definition, more high frequency.
But... I think P or J bass is a lifestyle choice as well. Committing to the P means taking on a set of preferences, and inherent parameters. You can't or at least shouldn't try to play a P bass like a Jazz. That would be missing the point. The P bass is a fat, chunky-butt animal that likes to take up space. It demands a high level of attention to what you play, because every note hurts - or helps. There ain't no takin' it back with a P bass. You better mean it, or be very good at making it work. You can play fast on a P, but it's not nimble like a Jackrabbit, more like a Grizzly doing 60mph to catch something to eat. Slap on a P? Sure, it's chunkfunk, think Boz Scaggs "Lowdown". The pop on a P is not as sharp as a J. It's like getting sliced with a serrated steak knife. Ouch! Use only when you gots to cut through some tough meat. Classic P guys... Jamerson, Rainey, Rocco, Bob Glaub.
The J is a sleeker machine. Being a Jazz guy means having a little more wiggle room. It takes up less space in the mix, so you can get more active without squashing people. With great power comes great responsibility. Just because you CAN move around, does that mean you should? And if so - how to, how much, and why? The J is a bit skinnier, so you have to learn how to use that texture to fill it up, and how to play it fat when it needs to be fat. Soloing? Sure. Slap? You bet. Passive it cuts like a well honed Buck knife. Active with a good pre amp, more like a barbers razor. Classic J guys... Jerry Jemmot, Larry Graham, Jaco, Marcus...
Some people make a choice early on and stick with it. Their entire style is built around that early decision, whether it was conscious or not. You may know some of these people. Players that would no sooner pick up the other axe than they would deliberately eat rotten food. There's honor in this I think, it certainly makes your life simpler when it's Friday night and you're trying to decide which bass to put in the bag.
I think it behooves (love that word) a professional bassist to have both and spend time cultivating the characteristics of each instrument. You need to make each one speak it's native language. There are some gigs that just naturally call for one or another. Not to say you couldn't switch around. You learn alot about the nature of the P and J when you try to make one do what the other does naturally.
Personally, I'm more fascinated with the P because I've always been a J guy by first nature. The J thing is in my DNA, but the P has gotten into my blood. I love chunkin out some fat ass P bass. It feels like I'm on vacation. The J still feels like home even though I've spent years getting used to the 5 string. I am definitely a confirmed 24 fret guy now. I always wished Fender would come out with a killer 24 fret J bass. I know.. the Urge bass.... Like I said.....
On most of my gigs these days, there is the expectation that I'm going to solo. If I wasn't so damned attached to what happens between frets 21 and 24, I'd bring a J, but.... Luckily I've found something with 24 that does it for me. But I still miss the opportunity to play my Fenders. I actually go out of my way to cultivate Fender gigs. No solos please!”
And from a subsequent thread I said this:
“Difficult...
As a main bass I prefer the Jazz neck, no question. But as an alternative instrument that I play differently then the big fat Precision neck helps me change my approach.
I like the look of both, though they seem rather big bodied, short necked and lacking in frets compared to my bass.
I like the big fat loud sound of the Precision pickup. I like the growly farty aggressive sound of the Jazz bridge pickup. I like the slinkier sound of two pickups and their handy 'sit in the mix' phase differences. I haven't done enough experimenting to come to a definitive conclusion on the 'best' two pickup sound.
If I'd been playing in the '60s or '70s I imagine a Jazz would have been my main bass. As it is, I prefer the even more versatile, clear and responsive sound of my '87 Warwick. So I doubt I'll ever need to own a J-bass. On the other hand I would really like a P-bass with big old flatwounds and high action, for greasing it up and laying it down like they did back in the day. Maybe one day I'll get one - but a RIM Custom will come first...”
I did get that RIM Custom 5 and played it a lot! 15 years on my position is definitely different - I prefer the P width neck (preferably not super deep front to back - the StingRay neck is basically perfect). My left hand seems to be happier even with fast complex stuff on a fatter neck, fewer aches and pains. I can live without a full two octaves of fretboard but please don’t make me have to fight with a big square neck joint when playing chords up high, give me one of those new ergonomic ones. And make sure it balances - this is where the Jazz usually beats the P.
Tonally the P attitude is more my thing, it’s so much more of a sledgehammer. I struggle with the lack of highs on a lot of passive pickups - I like older strings (partly because replacing strings often seems so horribly consumptive) and it’s worse with a P than a J. I like the Jaco etc bridge pickup funk thing.
Sacrilegious though it may sound, I’d rather have a P/J bass with EMGs - which I do though it’s a reverse P and the pickups are closer to the bridge than on a Fender. Or indeed a StingRay, which I also do!