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If you want to play with a pick I’d stop trying to learn to play with your fingers and concentrate on pick technique. Hardly any punk is fingerstyle so that would match better with your name here!
makes sense. i asked this on the course forum as the whole course is all finger-work, and the advice was do the course the way its supposed to be done first, then do it again but swap to pick. that also makes sense but im a bit impatient, and as you correctly assume by my username, most of what i play will be punky stuff id guess.
with that in mind, have you got any advice for playing with the pick? how not to hit the wrong strings, play economically etc. i guess its strum down for index finger, strum up for 2nd finger as a direct swap for 2 finger method. but with fingers, you obviously anchor your thumb, so have some idea where each string is in relation to that. i guess with a pick, your arms just hanging loose and its a matter of practice practice practice?
cheers
i guess its strum down for index finger, strum up for 2nd finger as a direct swap for 2 finger method.
Not really, as upstroke and downsides sound different. I’ve only just started using a pick and the videos I’ve watched recommend down only for anything up to 8th notes then use up and down for 16ths. They also tell you to keep your hand moving up and down all the time, which I’m finding difficult.
Like everything, getting comfortable is down to practice and repeating simple exercises until you get good. I get the feeling you’re going to struggle with that part. 🤣 🤣
I get the feeling you’re going to struggle with that part.
oh ye of so little faith.....
its a good course, and as ever, compromise may be the key. ive just tried a lesson but with the pick instead of my fingers and it went to ratsh1t, so i think ill still complete the course as per the 2 finger method, but also practice it with the pick afterwards. probably take twice as long but time isnt of the essence here.
I bumped into some friends in the pub on Friday night who all play together in their band. They invited me to come along and join in one evening. I got the fear and politely declined. Im no where near ready to try to join in with people who can actually play!!!!
Currently blundering through Atomic by Blondie - Ooooft!
Using a pick is a very different animal to using fingers, it's a whole world of techniques some of which like pick angle are a big deal but aren't part of fingerstyle playing (although fingerstyle we have other techniques that aren't part of pick playing).
In that SBL Jeff Berlin video he says that the essential purpose of a bass guitar is to play a note. But I'd argue that the essential purpose of a bass is to make a sound. And if you connect your right and left hand with making that sound, not just playing a note, I think it gets easier to make music.
I bumped into some friends in the pub on Friday night who all play together in their band. They invited me to come along and join in one evening. I got the fear and politely declined. Im no where near ready to try to join in with people who can actually play!!!!
as sh1t as i am, id have jumped at the chance if it was just an informal jam, as long as it was just playing something really simple and there were no expectations from them. id guess that would help no end.
Currently blundering through Atomic by Blondie - Ooooft!
Using a pick is a very different animal to using fingers, it's a whole world of techniques some of which like pick angle are a big deal but aren't part of fingerstyle playing (although fingerstyle we have other techniques that aren't part of pick playing).
I spent a bit of time on the billie jean rif, it is actually quite a cool bass line, and was definitely a finger twister, I think it is worth persevering with that one to at least the medium speed before moving on, you have to remember that if you were getting in person lessons, you would practise for a week between lessons, so I don't think it is a problem to keep at it for a few days or more. I think it was theotherjon that posted an article a few pages back about repetition and memory/muscle memory so don't be ina rush to move on too quickly, but at the same time don't spend too much time too get perfect.
I can't stand mj either, but wait till you realise that abba had some proper good bass lines as well to really get the internal conflict raging.
This is bound to piss some people off but a pet hate of mine is people calling a bass a “guitar” - not even bass guitar which is not so bad, but just a guitar. Bass or electric bass - if anyone asks me what I play, I tell them “electric bass and double bass”.
I think it is worth persevering with that one to at least the medium speed before moving on,
yep, as this is a benchmark song on there ill keep practising it til the end of the course.
I can't stand mj either, but wait till you realise that abba had some proper good bass lines as well to really get the internal conflict raging.
ooh id prefer some abba lines, cant see him introducing them into the course, id have to go find the tabs for those.
I think it was theotherjon that posted an article a few pages back about repetition and memory/muscle memory so don't be ina rush to move on too quickly, but at the same time don't spend too much time too get perfect.
ill have a look back later, see if i can find it. and no, as much as it pains me if i cant get the normal speed versions nailed, im happy to move on to the next lesson as long as ive got the slow version.
This is bound to piss some people off but a pet hate of mine is people calling a bass a “guitar” - not even bass guitar which is not so bad, but just a guitar. Bass or electric bass
noted. and apologies 🙂
I'm learning September by Earth Wind and Fire. Hated them when i was younger, but its a pretty good bassline. In fact there are some great funky, disco, motown type basslines out there.
Trying to find the tab for Getting Nowhere Fast by Girls at Our Best at the moment.
A couple of thoughts on bass playing. Firstly I would say the essence of getting good at bass playing, and often what’s needed in the bass playing role, is embracing the joy of doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, until you’re so deep inside it that you’ve gone way beyond thinking about it.
And also, I too used to get annoyed by it getting called a guitar, and even now it’s still very much a BASS guitar or a bass to me, but it is important to remember that it was based on the guitar and can be played very much like a guitar - chords, soloing, FX, etc.
Its dominant function in music tends to be in providing a bass line but it doesn’t always have to be that - you don’t have to have a bass line all the time in all music, sometimes it’s better for the music for the bass to be played more like a guitar.
All good points and well made - I’ve long said that one of the most important factors in becoming, and being, a good bass player is thinking like one, feeling like one and even knowing, long before you might be technically capable of executing it, what you want to actually sound like and what sonic and emotional impact you want to make in whatever musical genre(s) you choose to play within.
Long before I picked up a double bass or electric bass I knew (or felt, might be a better word) what I wanted my function to be, how I wanted it to make me, and hopefully others, feel. That, I was telling my eleven year old grand daughter a few days ago, is what gives you a massive head start in playing any instrument before you get down to the actual mechanics of doing it. I’d love her to become a bass player but I doubt it’ll happen - kids these days don’t “feel” music the way we used to, because it’s ubiquitous, it’s everywhere and yet at a superficial level. They don’t have real musicians that inspire them the way we used to have.
I was out yesterday evening just doing some playing with some old friends - the son of one of them, who is only half my age, plays drums with us and, as in my ideal world, can play like Ginger Baker better than anyone else that I know. Which is perfect for me - we can rip through all the Cream and BBM stuff and I never tire of doing just that. I can never play the 5/4 intro to “White Room” too often- the high register G/F, D/C (with some nice vibrato) and then the open A. But it’s the drums that make it - because he gets the whole “emotion” thing so well. Even the, on the face, of it simplest song ever “Sunshine of your Love” needs that depth to it, that’s what makes it work.
Before I pack all this in, I’d love to put an evening together of Jack Bruce songs - from Cream, his solo albums, West, Bruce and Laing and BBM. Mostly just guitar, bass, drums and some keys. Just because I can play this stuff well, because it’s been the soundtrack to most of my adult life, I’ve breathed it in. I’m no bass virtuoso, but I’m not that bad, I like to do things the best I can and make the rest of the band sound the best they can be too.
This is probably my last rambling about anything, because let’s face it, nothing I have to say has much relevance to anyone else. When I’ve decided what gear is going I’ll post it on the classifieds here first.
This is probably my last rambling about anything, because let’s face it, nothing I have to say has much relevance to anyone else. When I’ve decided what gear is going I’ll post it on the classifieds here first.
I completely disagree. I love hearing about other’s experiences and thoughts, even if they don’t have relevance to me yet.
Firstly I would say the essence of getting good at bass playing, and often what’s needed in the bass playing role, is embracing the joy of doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, until you’re so deep inside it that you’ve gone way beyond thinking about it.
so practice practice practice a song until the muscle memory is absolute you mean? then you can just enjoy yourself playing it without even thinking?
I completely disagree. I love hearing about other’s experiences and thoughts, even if they don’t have relevance to me yet.
i agree with your disagreement 🙂 please keep sharing @Andy-R.
When I’ve decided what gear is going I’ll post it on the classifieds here first.
I like your posts too Andy! I may be a generation younger but it was because of growing up on a diet of my Dad's Cream, Jethro Tull, etc records (I really couldn't stand '80s pop) that Jack Bruce was my first bass influence - I can remember panning to the side that had more of the bass so I could listen to what he was doing. That was my summer of '96 (avoiding last minute A-levels revision).
"so practice practice practice a song until the muscle memory is absolute you mean? then you can just enjoy yourself playing it without even thinking?"
Yes! It's like riding corners or jumps or drops on a MTB. You can't think fast enough so it has to be intuitive. You can think about where you're planning to go (bike or music) but you can't think about the details, the brain is too slow at that sort of conscious thinking. People call it "muscle memory" but it's just brain-training, that bit that elite sportspeople are so good at.
Yes! It's like riding corners or jumps or drops on a MTB. You can't think fast enough so it has to be intuitive. You can think about where you're planning to go (bike or music) but you can't think about the details, the brain is too slow at that sort of conscious thinking. People call it "muscle memory" but it's just brain-training, that bit that elite sportspeople are so good at.
"thanks, i guessed as much. sadly i think billy jean will be that song for me. cant get it yet so i try and have a few minutes on it each day but im still twanging wrong strings, getting fret buzz etc. its not helped by my fingers not being long enough to just hit everything without microshifting a little or adjusting my hand position a bit."
I was just the same, got small hands and arthritis in the fingers and figured bass might help(couldn't do guitar as i couldn't get the chord shapes), I struggled and thought i'd never get it. Been trying for 3 years now and can play along to various songs. i think the secret is to slow it right down then gradually speed up. It's a great feeling when you get it right. I also found it helped not to stick with one song but have a few on the go, that way i didn't get bored getting the same song wrong all the time. One other thing is that i love doing it, just wished i'd started many years ago.
I also got myself an audio interface and play through the pc with headphones on without annoying the wife.
Billie Jean is not an easy riff! It’s relentless and because it’s a perfectly produced pop song with Louis Johnson being his usual amazing self on bass (plus keyboard bass adding some bits), even if you can physically play it in time without mistakes, getting the tone and feel perfect is super hard.
I’ve just had a go at it and although most transcriptions have it around frets 2 and 4 I think it’s a lot easier to play (and the tone feels better on that bass) a string lower and 5 frets higher.
Re. the main Billie Jean riff - if you're playing it in 1st position don't bother with the whole "one finger per fret" thing and it'll seem a lot easier. It's just a rocking kind of motion between your index and little finger.
Don't get hung up on playing anything without what some call "microshifts". As long as it's reasonably ergonomic and you're not trying to do everything with one finger or something like that, don't overthink it. Even on fretless bass a lot of people don't adhere strictly to the so-called rules. It's more important if you're sight reading, but even then it's a rule often broken.
As far as learning a bass part until you can play it in your sleep goes - my view (and it's a personal thing) is knowing it inside out in your head is the most important thing. Once I'm there, unless the bass part is absolutely immovable (a few are like that) then it's rare for me to ever play a song (or even a verse) exactly the same twice. I like (for a live performance, at least) to have a slight edge of danger lurking somewhere, that if I don't pay attention, that fill or turnaround or harmonic could go wrong.....
It's like driving or riding fast, rather than just pootling along - your brain has to be anticipating, you have to be "telegraphing" your drummer so he knows what to expect, you have to be listening to everybody and yet still be aware of where you sit in all of this.
And, just like anything else, it can and occasionally does, go wrong but if your reactions are quick enough you can usually save it - same as riding or driving.
I've never really thought about this stuff much, you don't, you just do it. I think it's good for me though, as I get nearer the end of my playing days - it makes me appreciate how very, very fortunate I've been to be able to bullshit my way through over fifty years doing this - I still don't seem to have been found out either. I was at a local blues session a couple of weeks back, doing a bit of playing, and ran into a drummer that I worked with a few times fifty years ago - amazingly I'd never seen him since then. He spent the rest of the evening telling anybody who'd listen how brilliant I was. He was well oiled, mind you.
I'm invited back in a couple of weeks, it'll all go shit-shaped halfway through "Born Under a Bad Sign" or "Sissy Strut" and that'll be it, my cover will be blown......
I’ve just had a go at it and although most transcriptions have it around frets 2 and 4 I think it’s a lot easier to play (and the tone feels better on that bass) a string lower and 5 frets higher.
just tried and i get what you mean about easier finger placements, altho on the lower string i then struggle to cock my wrist further around the neck to reach it so its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other 😀 i think i do actually prefer the 'original' but thatnks for the alternative suggestion.
Don't get hung up on playing anything without what some call "microshifts". As long as it's reasonably ergonomic and you're not trying to do everything with one finger or something like that, don't overthink it.
good advice, thanks.
by the way, have any of you got a link to a complete blitzkrieg bop tab? ive seen a few different ones, some start on open A, some on 5th fret on E string, but i dont think ive seen a complete one. i think thats one id like to just be able to rattle off if i ever get to jam with my mates sometime, so BB and BJ are 2 that ill just keep practising every time i pick the bass up for muscle memory.
thanks
Ultimate Guitar has supposedly the official tab. Starts on 5th fret of the E string. I doubt the link will work for you as its in my account, but you might be able to have a free trial and then print it off.
https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/ramones/blitzkrieg-bop-official-1944363
I don’t think I’ve seen a tab, but having played it on the six string I naturally go to the A on the E string fret 5.
This makes sense as those are the only notes he plays except the bridge where he plays D B D E , and the B is at fret 7 E string so the entire song can be played in a 5757 box.
Dee Dee played with a pick on a bass slung down to his knees with all downstrokes. Quite a feat!
those are the only notes he plays except the bridge where he plays D B D E , and the B is at fret 7 E string so the entire song can be played in a 5757 box.
ahh i see that now yes. id been dropping down to B on the A string (fret 2) but yes it makes more sense to keep it in the 5757 box, altho i still tend to play an open A from time to time. no real rhyme or reason for that but i dont suppose it matters too much.
i still tend to get a fair bit of fret buzz and poor finger placements even on something so relatively simple. my thumb keeps tending to gravitate to the top side of the neck rather than stay in the middle, and i find myself gripping the neck more than i should and it leads to achey fingers. i need to be more ergonomical with my grip and hand placement i think.
ill be interested in trying one of my mates guitars in a week when i see him next, see if it 'feels easier' to play. i think i mentioned before, my action would appear to be a couple of mm too high, so when i get chance im going to go through this bassbuzz youtube video on setting it up properly, trussrod, bridge saddles etc etc....
I doubt the link will work for you as its in my account, but you might be able to have a free trial and then print it off.
youre correct, doesnt work. had a fair bit of hassle just lately with signing up for things and trouble cancelling them later so i'll probably not put in my bank card details in on this one. thanks tho, appreciated.
Look at videos by people like Don Erlewine or Roger Sadowsky if you want information on bass (and for that matter, guitar) set-up. These guys have built more basses than you and I have had hot dinners and know what they're on about, without having to be all hip and "influencer-ish". I suspect they couldn't give a monkey's about that.
One of the most overlooked things about action is the string height at the nut over the 1st fret. In my case that's no more than twice what it would be if you capo'd at the 1st and measured over the 2nd fret......there's actually no reason, other than nut wear, for it to be any more than at 1st to 2nd but I always allow a few thou. extra. It's easier to remove material than to put it back.......
Nothing about set-up is remotely difficult or a black art - I always work in this order -
Set the nut height, as this affects everything .
Set the neck relief, with the bass tuned to pitch and with the strings that you plan to use (the make, version and gauge). Aim for around 0.2mm (with a capo at the 1st and strings held down at the 17th or 19th fret.) Slacken the truss rod to increase relief, tighten to decrease.
Set the action at the 12th fret, with a capo at the 1st, to suit your playing style and preference. Start with something like 2.0mm on the E and a bit less on the G and go from their.
Then set intonation - check for a perfect octave at the 12th fret and the 24th (if you have one) Or at the 17th for an A D G and C. It'll always be a slight compromise, because it's not a perfect world, but it'll be easy to get it close enough for jazz. Keep checking your tuning because one affects the other.
Humidity changes will affect neck relief- the higher the humidity the more the neck expands lengthwise, which is the same as tightening the truss rod - the relief gets less. The opposite for low humidity, relief increases. It doesn't take much - if a quarter turn on a 1mm pitch truss rod makes a difference, well, that's only 0.25mm or .010"..wood will easily change that much over a couple of feet
.It depends how fussy you are but be prepared to do some truss rod adjusting every now and then - think of it like fine tuning gears or trueing wheels. Once you know how, you know how for life.
Something extra to action adjustments - you might need to adjust pickup heights too, especially if you end up lowering the action a lot...a whole new subject.
I should write a book......
Great machining / bass video
thanks @Andy-R. just had a go and not sure ive improved it, if anything the higher frets were giving a bit of buzz post tweak if i played from say the 12th fret, so i had to reverse some of what id done.
i followed a roger sadowsky video.
Set the nut height, as this affects everything .
this isnt adjustable on mine so it is what it is.
Set the neck relief, with the bass tuned to pitch and with the strings that you plan to use (the make, version and gauge). Aim for around 0.2mm (with a capo at the 1st and strings held down at the 17th or 19th fret.) Slacken the truss rod to increase relief, tighten to decrease.
i dont have feelers but the video states that you can just lightly tap the string and aim for a little clicking sound to show theres a bit of movement still. i did tweak the trussrod which didnt feel right to me. firstly i wasnt sure if my allen key fitted correctly (decimal rather than imperial). i think it located ok tho and when i tweaked it i could hear the wood creak. unsure whether its supposed to do that or whether i was about to break it so i just rechecked that the string had a slight movement to it on 7th fret and left it at that.
Set the action at the 12th fret, with a capo at the 1st, to suit your playing style and preference. Start with something like 2.0mm on the E and a bit less on the G and go from their.
this was my largest tweak. dont have a capo but held down the fret (next time ill use something wedged between the strings to hold it down instead) and aimed for about 2mm on E. i used 2 credit cards together which seemed to be around 2mm. saddles had to come down quite some way. i found the middle 2 strings difficult to do due to sliding the cards in under either E or G and i couldnt really tell what the gap was.
Then set intonation - check for a perfect octave at the 12th fret and the 24th (if you have one) Or at the 17th for an A D G and C.
this was where i realised that all was not well and my saddles were probably too low now as when i pressed the fret for the octave, the higher frets were touching and buzzing. in fact it felt like the strings werent tight enough at first and were just rattling, until i twigged that i couldnt get a reading on the tuner because it was just picking up higher frets.
i didnt really know how to tweak the intonation now, so i just heightened the saddles until there was no more 'high fret buzz' when i pressed 12th fret. i retuned it and the octave seemed ok on tuner so ive left it at that. i guess my action is still a bit too high but thats enough fettling for now. at one point i wondered if id totally messed up and couldnt practice until checked over, but once id raised the saddles again and got it tuned i guess its all ok again. probably not much different from before 😀
thanks for your help. i suppose i need proper tools if im going to do it accurately, but i think id still struggle with the middle 2 strings.
cheers
Most basses don't have adjustable nuts, the slots have to be filed to adjust. What would you say the gap between the strings and the 1st fret is? The thickness of a typical business card is the most that you should ever have. If you've got a straightedge of any kind (steel rule) check to see whether the fretboard "kicks up" at around the 15th/17th fret. Some necks develop this over time and the truss rod doesn't do anything once you get to this area. If you try to.adjust this out you'll find the neck starts going backwards at around the 5th fret.
Sometimes you just have to compromise in this case, unless you dress the top frets and/or level the board itself. You can set the D & A with feeler gauges- just lift the G or E strings up out of the way slightly.
What would you say the gap between the strings and the 1st fret is? The thickness of a typical business card is the most that you should ever have.
using my trusty '2 credit card' measuring method, i goes in easily, 2 pushes the string, so roughly around 1.5mm? by a business card i assume you mean a bit of cardboard? maybe around 0.5mm or even thinner? so that implies my nut is a fair bit too high.
If you've got a straightedge of any kind (steel rule) check to see whether the fretboard "kicks up" at around the 15th/17th fret.
not noticeably. i used a steel rule across frets 1 and 20. at a rough estimate theres a gap of around 1.25 on fret 12.
i pushed the credit card along and it met resistance on fret 14 (so 1mm gap) and then closes towards 20, but then again it would anyway wouldnt it as fret 20 is 0mm.
thanks
Yes, a typical business card is around 0.3 or 0.4mm, whereas a credit card usually seems to be about 1.0mm.
If you use the steel rule across frets 1-20 can you then adjust the truss rod to bring clearance at the mid point (around 9th fret) down to next to nothing - in other words, hardly any relief?
Don't forget that as you reduce the relief, you may then need to raise the bridge saddles slightly - hold the bass and bend the neck back slightly and you'll see the string height reduce.....
The biggest improvement to playability around 1st position is getting the nut height down to a sensible figure - most basses leave the manufacturer with nuts cut far too high, they err on the side of safety, I suppose. If all strings are too high by a substantial amount it's softer easier to pop the nut out and remove most of what you need from the base then refit it and fine tune the depths one it's in place.
well, wouldnt you know it, talking to my mate and he says theres a guitar bloke round the corner from me, a couple of his band uses him. popped round on the off chance and he said hed look at it for me to see if im in the right ballpark or not, but itd be £50 for a proper set up. didnt fancy paying the same price as my bass actually cost me, so he just had a quick look for general advice which was good of him.
first thing he noticed was the neck was twisted, so strings were slightly to one side. he said its not a problem if everything else is set, its more aesthetic but he still loosened it off twisted it back then retightened.
looked at the trussrod relief and basically said the whole set up was a sack of sh1t 😀 trussrod need tightening due to too much gap, which i sort of suspected anyway. oh he also said the nut was a little too high but not worryingly so, and ideally the slots would need filing down a little.
so...... back home to meddle again 😀
If you use the steel rule across frets 1-20 can you then adjust the truss rod to bring clearance at the mid point (around 9th fret) down to next to nothing - in other words, hardly any relief?
as i mentioned before, for some reason my trussrod is really difficult to adjust. i can get the allen key in, but once ive moved it 1/8th of a turn its a right pain to get back out. i did it tho, tightened it a few 1/8th turns and got it so just a business card would slide in.
then re-adjusted the action to between 2 to 3 credit cards, so 2-3mm each string, moving the outer strings out of the way as you suggested.
tested intonation but no need for adjustment there.
just had a quick play and its definitely better. still get a bit of buzz on the higher frets if i really twang the strings, but thatll do me for now 🙂
thanks
as i mentioned before, for some reason my trussrod is really difficult to adjust. i can get the allen key in, but once ive moved it 1/8th of a turn its a right pain to get back out. i did it tho, tightened it a few 1/8th turns and got it so just a business card would slide in.
Fender truss rods usually use a 3/16” Allen key. You’re not trying to use a metric are you? Another thought, are you de-tensioning the strings before trying to adjust? If not, you are trying to adjust against the tension of the strings as well as the neck. You need to retune after a tweak anyway, so I always take a good bit of string tension off first to make it easier.
Fender truss rods usually use a 3/16” Allen key. You’re not trying to use a metric are you?
oops, yes, 4mm i think, good job you pointed that out to me.
Another thought, are you de-tensioning the strings before trying to adjust? If not, you are trying to adjust against the tension of the strings as well as the neck.
no, none of the videos show them doing that, and id have thought it counter-intuitive as you do actually want to adjust to trussrod to read a correct gap against the tight strings dont you? if you slacken the strings then youre measuring against what?
EDIT: i guess the saddle allen key also wants to be imperial too then i assume?
My main bass has a vintage style truss rod, so I have to loosen the strings to remove the neck to adjust it anyway. My beginner bass was a Yamaha and the only time I needed to adjust the neck, it made horrible noises even doing a 1/8 turn with it tensioned. Doing it with strings loose was much easier. With the truss rod, you’re not looking at massive adjustments unless the bass is completely ****ed.
was just thinking, 3/16" is bigger than 4mm isnt it, 0.188 vs 0.157? thought id have a quick look and as i expected, a 3/16 wont fit into the slot. 4mm was tight and took some doing, thats what made me wonder how a bigger key would fit. it doesnt. could squier be metric against fenders imperial maybe?
if you slacken the strings then youre measuring against what?
strings can still be 'tight' and straight without being taut, don't slacken off until they've gone baggy
Whenever I’m adjusting a trussrod I bend/pull/push the neck in the direction I want it to move, then turn the rod a 1/4 turn, and then leave it for a day before further adjustments. I may be paranoid because I snapped two truss rods in my youth!
I would highly recommend a set of feeler gauges for neck relief measurements. You can really get precise measurements.
I would highly recommend a set of feeler gauges for neck relief measurements. You can really get precise measurements.
yeah i used to have a couple of sets from engineering days. ill have to go looking in the garage. anything else you can recommend for home fettling?
was just thinking, 3/16" is bigger than 4mm isnt it, 0.188 vs 0.157? thought id have a quick look and as i expected, a 3/16 wont fit into the slot. 4mm was tight and took some doing, thats what made me wonder how a bigger key would fit. it doesnt. could squier be metric against fenders imperial maybe?
just following this up and google implies that 4mm is indeed correct. i certainly couldnt fit the 3/16th key in.
My inner wince is still going after your report that the allen key was hard to remove. It is vital you seat it correctly, as it's so easy to damage or round off the head of the truss rod nut, and there's a lot of expense and faff to repair/replace it. I might even suggest you invest in a ball-end version.
If I might make so bold, 50 quid sounds like a lot of money, but it would be totally worth it, and a lot less than the cost of replacing a truss rod......
@sadexpunk - If you are looking for something easy to play with a pick thats immensely recognisable and fun i can fully recommend the Joy Division back catalogue. A while back i learnt Unknown Pleasures from start to finish. All the tabs are on ultimate guitar
My inner wince is still going after your report that the allen key was hard to remove. It is vital you seat it correctly, as it's so easy to damage or round off the head of the truss rod nut, and there's a lot of expense and faff to repair/replace it.
im pretty sure it seats correctly, its just difficult to remove once turned. im not sure if it might be because its then pushed against the A string which is applying pressure. my mates going to give me some feeler gauges, so when i get those ill have a proper measure and hopefully it wont need tweaking again.
If I might make so bold, 50 quid sounds like a lot of money, but it would be totally worth it, and a lot less than the cost of replacing a truss rod......
youre correct of course. i think i just see it as a 'disposable practice bass' tho, knowing that at some point if i stick with it (which im pretty sure i will now) ill be buying 'the one'. so ill just make do as thats £50 towards a new one 🙂
If you are looking for something easy to play with a pick thats immensely recognisable and fun i can fully recommend the Joy Division back catalogue. A while back i learnt Unknown Pleasures from start to finish. All the tabs are on ultimate guitar
ah thats good to know, love meself a bit of JD. been reading the bassbuzz forums a lot just lately and theres not a lot of love for UG, incorrect tabs, 'official' tabs which are nothing of the sort etc etc. are these available to non-subscribers (i couldnt access the UG link kindly supplied further up the thread)? bassbuzz itself has a decent library of correct tabs for songs, ill go have a root about, see if theres any JD songs in there. its also the only place ive found a correct blitzkreig bop tab of the whole song which im going to be practising today. its faster than you think when you look at the slider going across the tab 😀
thanks
We have a guitar in the office at work that one of my staff got for £10 in a junk shop. He spent £70 on a set-up with a new nut and it plays great. So I wouldn’t see it as money wasted. Bass is hard enough without the instrument fighting you unnecessarily.
are these available to non-subscribers (i couldnt access the UG link kindly supplied further up the thread)?
They are such simple songs these are certainly good enough. Just choose the highest rated versions
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/search.php?title=joy+division&page=1&type=400
Yes Peter Hook.
Next post; what reasonably priced chorus pedal?
So I wouldn’t see it as money wasted. Bass is hard enough without the instrument fighting you unnecessarily.
They are such simple songs these are certainly good enough. Just choose the highest rated versions
Next post; what reasonably priced chorus pedal?
Do you already have other pedals?
I haven't yet (other than a peterson tuner) and I keep thinking about where I will start, and I am leaning towards a multi effects pedal as probably the better long term value rather than starting a collection of individual pedals, bigger initial outlay rather than longer drawn out rapes of my wallet., I am probably not ready for pedals yet, but I have the itch already.
Electro Harmonix Stereo Clone Theory. If you find an offer... let us know here, I'm after one at the right price.
and to make a second attempt to give an answer to a question you didn't ask.
or a rather expensive alternative, a mate has a sabbadius tiny vibe 68 (copy of a pedal hendrix was using in 68), which is a guitar pedal, but also adds a glorious rich texture to bass. its not a chorus but I think a vibe is kind of in the same ball park, and they may not be around for long because there is problems with components supply. I really fancy getting one while I can but by god they are expensive.
I am leaning towards a multi effects pedal as probably the better long term value rather than starting a collection of individual pedals, bigger initial outlay rather than longer drawn out rapes of my wallet., I am probably not ready for pedals yet, but I have the itch already.
Its deffo the right way to go. As a 6 string guitarist i had an armoury of pedals all of which is now replaced by a much simpler single multi effects stomp box. A Line 6 M5 which cost less than most of my individual pedals.
For what little it's worth - I tried the multi-effects thing (Zoom B3 and B3n) but, although they're fine for playing about with at home I never got on with them for stage use - they just seemed like too much faffing. I much prefer physical pedals, as do.an awful lot of bass players. Of the two, I prefer the B3, as it has an XLR out, which, for some weird reason, was omitted from the B3n....both for sale, if anybody wants one.
All I'm using now, in the latest shuffling around of pedals is, in this order - Boss OC-2, TC Electronic Corona Chorus and Vortex Flanger and then lastly EBS Compressor.
I could probably do without the compressor if I'm going through my bass heads, because the RH series have excellent onboard compressors (and Tubetone too). An odd time I might be using someone else's rig though.
I'd actually agree with that. My mothballing of the individual pedals coincided with the winding up of my band during covid. But for home based messing about the M5 is all i need and is a lot less faff to hoover around.
Pedals are really fun (see my pedalboard pic earlier!) but they do suck up time in quite a distracting way, so there's pros and cons. Obviously if you want a certain effected sound then you'll need that effect so then there's an artistic requirement to use a pedal. I much prefer separate stompboxes (mostly for how you use them - each knob doing what you expect, no menus, etc) but that's a far more expensive route than many multi-FX and digital multi-FX have got a lot better in recent years.
On another note, I just saw a bit of a Janek Gwizdala / John Patitucci video talking about action on their main basses - 4.5mm and 3.5mm at the 12th fret respectively. They're both serious jazz / fusion players, so certainly getting around the whole neck at speed!
I started my pedal journey with a Line 6 Bass Express Bass multi fx. It was a fairly simple thing with limited adjustability, but was very simple to use and also worked as a digital interface for the computer.Apart from compressors, there was only one of each type of effect to choose from but gave a good idea of what each effect does. I love chorus and moved to a separate more adjustable chorus pedal (MXR bass chorus deluxe) which I still have. Didn’t like the octave on the line 6 and bought a POG. Last year I bought a HX Stomp in a sale and am still just scratching the surface of it. Lots of options but takes time to set anything up and can understand why it’s not necessarily the easiest to use in a gig situation, although I only play at home.
Keep an eye on eBay, pedals often sell for half rrp and hold their second hand value well.
This was my first foray into effects, in 1997:
It wasn’t very good at all but I had fun with it! Can’t remember if I ever gigged it - I’m sure it was quite tone sucking even when it wasn’t doing anything.
I then got one of these thrown in when buying a bass secondhand and apart from being a bit noisy it was great - absolutely mad chorus/flange/delay and a gnarly distortion with clean blend.
I had a 105Q bass wah, the white one that’s still popular, maybe before that Boss multi-FX. And a Trace Elliot Dual Compressor pedal, maybe that was the second pedal I got after the Zoom 506?
After that came the Fulltone Bassdrive I still use and my first Big Muff which I still have but was replaced on my board by our own Barefaced Machinist, a third of which is a hot-rodded Big Muff.
The Big Muff is probably my favourite pedal ever, I just love fuzz bass, it’s like a whole different instrument!
Had an interesting setup issue yesterday which I hadn't really noticed before. On my Fender Jazz I was asked to play a slow piece in Eb, so I dropped the E to D with the Hipshot, but playing the Eb at fret 1 D string the intonation was out, with the note being a smidge sharp (confirmed with the tuner, so it wasn't just my ears) . I then tried the same note an octave lower on the bottom E (now a D) string. If I fretted hard near the fret it went sharp too. If I fretted gently away from the fret it could play in tune. My conclusion of course is that the nut needs lowering, so I've ordered a set of files to sort it.
I've owned that bass for a couple of years now, and with my normal uptempo stuff I've not noticed the intonation issues, but that slow piece has exposed an issue I hadn't realised I had.
As for pedals.... well, I like to play a bit of Muse and various other raucous stuff, so I've got quite a collection of Ocatavers, Bass Drivers, Muffs, Mammoths, a Synth pedal, all played via an Aguilar ToneHammer preamp into the return side of my Orange Crush 100 or DI into the mixer. At home for fun I tend to run a second dry signal into my Ashdown 180 combo.
The Big Muff is probably my favourite pedal ever, I just love fuzz bass, it’s like a whole different instrument!
I hear other bassists using fuzz, but every time I try using it myself it sounds awful!
I tried 2nd hand Darkglass DFZ but had to turn everything right down to get a usable sound. I think I’m just not at that stage of my journey yet. As usual, trying to run before I can walk. It’s all a learning experience though. It’s as useful to know what you don’t like as to know what you do.
I do like layering it with an octave for a synth feel but that’s mainly just for playing riffs or fannying about with.
I did buy some of the Ian Martin Allison HX presets which, one of which contains a nice lo gain fuzz, but haven’t had a musical reason to really use it yet. His Montana patch is amazing though. Been using it for some slow blues and it’s perfect for that.
Had an interesting setup issue yesterday which I hadn't really noticed before. On my Fender Jazz I was asked to play a slow piece in Eb, so I dropped the E to D with the Hipshot, but playing the Eb at fret 1 D string the intonation was out, with the note being a smidge sharp (confirmed with the tuner, so it wasn't just my ears) . I then tried the same note an octave lower on the bottom E (now a D) string. If I fretted hard near the fret it went sharp too. If I fretted gently away from the fret it could play in tune.
When you drop the E string down to D, you release a little bit of neck tension, which causes a reduction in neck relief which in turn increases the tension on the other strings.
You'd have to be really fussy to notice this in the real world though. To get round the Hipshot issue set it up so that the open D is slightly flat but the D# is to pitch. They're a bit finicky at the best of times. If you tune the open E to pitch is the F sharp? If so, that probably is made worse by a too high nut.
On another note, I just saw a bit of a Janek Gwizdala / John Patitucci video talking about action on their main basses - 4.5mm and 3.5mm at the 12th fret respectively. They're both serious jazz / fusion players, so certainly getting around the whole neck at speed!
I'm assuming that height is for the B on a five string? If not, I'm surprised that they'd run that high. The lowest action that I've ever seen anyone use was at a Jeff Berlin workshop when he was using his Palaedium - that seemed insanely low at the time (early '90s) but then I think most people have the same opinion of the way I have mine set up now.
As Sly Stone would say " Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks" ....("Everyday People", in case you were wondering).
The sharp Eb is most noticeable on the actual D string. I’ll double check the intonation with the Hipshot dropped and undropped. The files are here and I’ll do a complete setup this morning.
I’m blessed/cursed with perfect/relative pitch so little intonation issues really make my teeth itch. It’s not too bad in fast stuff, but the bass was playing semibreves against a fingerpicked acoustic and was really exposed.
looks like my first foray into playing with a mate next weekend. firstly my bassist mate who says come round and have a jam, he'll play normal guitar. then next night a different guitar playing mate says come round and have a play.
not sure what to expect really, ive only got blitzkreig bop in my locker, and a slow one at that 😀 also trying to learn the billy ocean red light spells danger that was linked a few pages back. and just starting out with shes lost control by joy division.
so my question is...... how do we make the best of it? do you think itll just be noodling around aimlessly, them showing me chord patterns that i dont understand yet? or the odd youtube video to play along with? or is there a way of just getting the drums and vocals to songs and we add the bass/guitar?
just trying to visualise how itll pan out when he says do you know any oasis songs, er no, i say do you know blitzkreig bop, he says no, er..... shall we just put the guitars down then and have a drink 😀
If I'm remembering correctly, as a beginner bassist I did a lot of playing the root notes the guitarist told me to play under the chords/riffs. There's a lot of rock music that that works for, even though it might not always be what was on the original.
Also, simple 12 bar blues, that keeps you busy for hours!
Also, simple 12 bar blues, that keeps you busy for hours!
That’s what I’d do. Learn the 12 bar chord progression and what a turn around is. It’s only 3 different chords and you can easily get to grips with that over a weekend. You can have fun together playing simple root notes or if you have time to learn the arpeggio pattern then great. Once you know the chord arpeggio pattern you can mix it up playing the notes in different orders. The pattern is the same for every note, so if you start on the root note then you always know where the other notes that work together are.
It sounds complicated but it really isn’t once you look at it. Blues is also a great subject to dive into as it had such an influence to lots of different genres.
thanks guys. currently watching 2 x bassbuzz videos on 12 bar blues and patterns etc 🙂
I’m blessed/cursed with perfect/relative pitch so little intonation issues really make my teeth itch. It’s not too bad in fast stuff, but the bass was playing semibreves against a fingerpicked acoustic and was really exposed.
In that case, my worst nightmare would be to have you in the audience if I had a fretless gig.
I don't think that my intonation is that bad - nobody's ever said as much over the last fifty years, anyway - but nobody, nobody, is ever perfect on a fretless instrument. Even Pino Palladino recounted a time when he'd just recorded a bass track and then the producer went through it (with a tuner) pointing out that he was so many percent sharp or flat on any given note......
Pretty unbelievable but it's true - anyway, vibrato is your friend here.
Do you play fretless, btw? If not, maybe you should. With such good inate pitch it would be ideal for you. I'm being serious, not facetious.
Also, simple 12 bar blues, that keeps you busy for hours!
That’s what I’d do. Learn the 12 bar chord progression and what a turn around is. Once you know the chord arpeggio pattern you can mix it up playing the notes in different orders. The pattern is the same for every note, so if you start on the root note then you always know where the other notes that work together are.
Yes - learn the pattern for both Major and Minor chords and then play about with them to your heart's content. There are different sequences you can use for the I,IV,V chords too. Then, come up with bass patterns not starting on the root note. It's endless....
fascinating stuff, and i do actually understand the videos, thats what ill get onto next when i get chance. these are the 2 videos ive been watching that explain it all in simple terms (for my future reference, you guys know it all already 🙂 )
now to keep practising those shapes so they become second nature hopefully.
thanks.
In that case, my worst nightmare would be to have you in the audience if I had a fretless gig.
It's not too bad in a mix, so no worries there, but for example I can't listen to amateur brass bands, 'cos my ears will nearly always pick out something like a euphonium that's not in tune with the rest and it grates.
Do you play fretless, btw? If not, maybe you should. With such good inate pitch it would be ideal for you. I'm being serious, not facetious.
Genuinely considering it. My relative pitch was first noticed by a violin teacher when I was 7 and I was always able to play perfectly in tune. I cannot stand hearing kids play strings unless they can do the same. Listening to kids scratching out even simple tunes on a violin is torture.
The good news this morning is that I've been through a complete setup. Neck relief and action height were bang on, but the D string was a pain to intonate. I realised after a lot of buggering about that I'd put on new strings a week or two ago and I'd managed to put the D string on the wrong part of the saddle, so it was angled from the bridge to the saddle, and not parallel to the other strings. The nut height was absolutely spot on at 22 thou on all four strings, so no nuts were filed! That Eb is near enough not to worry about now.
my heads hurting. can you help me get it around blues shapes please? i understand the I, IV,V pattern, both low and high.
i also assume that this 'blues box pattern' is well known to everyone?
so, using the 12 bar blues pattern i can either hit all root notes of I, IV, V as a beginner, so for one example....
CCCC CCCC CCCC CCCC
FFFF FFFF CCCC CCCC
GGGG FFFF CCCC CCCC
yes? but if i now want to jazz it up a bit using that box pattern above, id play each of those notes instead of just roots yep?
so....A string, high pattern.....
C G A# C C G A# C C G A# C C G A# C
F C oh..... i dont have another string across.....
which implies i can only do that pattern if i start on outside strings yes?
or am i answering my own question here as i type by seeing that id have to use the low pattern on the middle strings?
so 2nd line of bars would start.....
F C D# F etc etc so i can fit that shape in......
in fact is there only the E string that i could utilise for that 'high' pattern as it would need to cover all 4 strings? every other string would need to be low pattern?
hope i havent done your head in with that, its doing mine in trying to get it straight in my head 😀
You can move that pattern up five frets rather than up a string, or you can move it down a string and two frets.
So that F root note at 3rd fret D-string is also at 8th fret A-string and (an octave lower) at 1st fret E-string.
But would also ruin the pattern that I'd need in my head? 😁
Room in there for two patterns?
In your example, start on F on the D string then go up the D for the next note. This will put you in area of fret board to play the rest of the notes on the D and G, before heading back down the fret board to start again.
Remember you can also make simple lines more interesting using different rhythms. Instead of all quarter notes, you can play eighths or a mix of both. Shuffle 8th feel great to play.
Find a blues tab and look at how they use the notes, then play the same notes just in a different order. A fun an recognisable one is Green Onions, by Booker T and the MGs. It’s repeating pattern, just in different area of the fretboard. Take it slowly and memorise the movement and it’ll be easy to play.
Room in there for two patterns?
not much room in my head at all let alone extra patterns 😀
no i think id better get these dialled before starting to deviate. so i guess im right then in thinking that 'blues box' can only ever be played if root is on E or A string. and if its on E then it has to be 'high shape' (as IV and V need to be higher). and if on A then it has to be 'low shape' (as IV and V need to be lower).
have i got that right to get me started? its a right mind-bender isnt it 😀
thanks
That’s right, if you want to play your 578 pattern as shown in your pic. Keep it simple for the time being and concentrate on keeping in time. No shame in just playing roots and simple walkups, after all Dusty Hill made a huge career out of it! What he did best was absolutely nail the rhythm every time.
No shame in just playing roots and simple walkups,
well i know what you mean by the roots, CCCC FFFF etc, and ive been practising the 'blues box' pattern on I, IV and V too, but what are walk ups with regards to 12 bar blues?
You can have fun together playing simple root notes or if you have time to learn the arpeggio pattern then great. Once you know the chord arpeggio pattern you can mix it up playing the notes in different orders.
by arpeggio do you mean that 'blues box' pattern?
Yes - learn the pattern for both Major and Minor chords and then play about with them to your heart's content. There are different sequences you can use for the I,IV,V chords too.
i dont know my chord notes yet, only the 'major' pattern. so do you mean that by learning the minor chord then thats a different pattern which would give a different I, IV, V pattern? or have i got that round my neck? think i need to walk before i can run and not get too far ahead of myself 😀
my mates told me he can play guitar on blitzkreig bop, teenage kicks, pretty vacant, bad moon rising, stuck in the middle with you and a few others, so they can be my practice songs to keep me going (oh and billy ocean of course for my wife 😀 ). just songsterr and ultimate guitar to choose from for tabs am i right?
and for those of you that can do teenage kicks, songsterr uses E10, UG uses A5. whats your preference? keep it tidy with less hand movement, or 'more punk' sliding up and down the string? 😀
"and for those of you that can do teenage kicks, songsterr uses E10, UG uses A5. whats your preference? keep it tidy with less hand movement, or 'more punk' sliding up and down the string?"
For practice purposes, both. My favourite warmup tune is Gigantic by The Pixies, but varying where on the fretboard I play it. Helps me learn the fretboard, practice sliding, if thats what I want, jumping strings and muting too, if thats my aim.
But aye, theres a definite punk vibe with keeping everything on E.
Edit: HTF does the block quote work? Its probably simple.
No
Yes - learn the pattern for both Major and Minor chords and then play about with them to your heart's content. There are different sequences you can use for the I,IV,V chords too.
i dont know my chord notes yet, only the 'major' pattern. so do you mean that by learning the minor chord then thats a different pattern which would give a different I, IV, V pattern? or have i got that round my neck? think i need to walk before i can run and not get too far ahead of myself 😀
No shame in just playing roots and simple walkups,
well i know what you mean by the roots, CCCC FFFF etc, and ive been practising the 'blues box' pattern on I, IV and V too, but what are walk ups with regards to 12 bar blues?
You can have fun together playing simple root notes or if you have time to learn the arpeggio pattern then great. Once you know the chord arpeggio pattern you can mix it up playing the notes in different orders.
by arpeggio do you mean that 'blues box' pattern?
Yes - learn the pattern for both Major and Minor chords and then play about with them to your heart's content. There are different sequences you can use for the I,IV,V chords too.
i dont know my chord notes yet, only the 'major' pattern. so do you mean that by learning the minor chord then thats a different pattern which would give a different I, IV, V pattern? or have i got that round my neck? think i need to walk before i can run and not get too far ahead of myself 😀
If you were playing against C Major, for example, then root, 3,5, would be C,E,G.
But for C minor, it would be C, Eb,G. - that E doesn't have a place..... So, once you work out a pattern for that you can transpose it to any key as long as you're not using open strings.
That's all I meant, I probably wasn't very clear though.
well i know what you mean by the roots, CCCC FFFF etc, and ive been practising the 'blues box' pattern on I, IV and V too, but what are walk ups with regards to 12 bar blues?
Use the bar before any chord change to play the four notes below the next chord, to land on the new chord on the first beat of the bar. If we play a G blues for example we'd play three bars G, then in the 4th bar play G, A (open A), A# (fret 1 A string) B (fret 2 A string) then land on the C at fret 3 for the first beat of the next bar. It's a way of making it more interesting. As a newcomer give it a go on the bars when you have plenty of time to think, so just the change from I to IV, then as your confidence grows try it from I to IV or break up the monotony of the first four bars by walking up from underneath on the second bar, open E string, F,F# so 3-0-1-2-
and for those of you that can do teenage kicks, songsterr uses E10, UG uses A5. whats your preference? keep it tidy with less hand movement, or 'more punk' sliding up and down the string?
The original video shows Mickey Bradley playing a Rickenbacker with a pick, playing the D on the A string. The rhythm guitarist plays all bar chords with the root on the E string, which is how I learnt it, but as franciscobegbie says, try both.
I hate playing with a pick as I have paraesthesia so tend to drop them
i dont know my chord notes yet, only the 'major' pattern. so do you mean that by learning the minor chord then thats a different pattern which would give a different I, IV, V pattern?
By happy coincidence a minor blues pattern is identical to a Major one. Am for example is Am, Dm, Em. The shape is the same, but the roman numerals are different- vi-ii-iii as they are the sixth, second and third triads in the key of C major, and lower case because they are all minor chords
By happy coincidence a minor blues pattern is identical to a Major one. Am for example is Am, Dm, Em. The shape is the same, but the roman numerals are different- vi-ii-iii as they are the sixth, second and third triads in the key of C major, and lower case because they are all minor chords
nope, totally over my head, just not that advanced to know enough theory yet.
without wishing to turn this into a tutorial (ive got bassbuzz for that), i just tried working something out and its obviously wrong 😀
ive just got teenage kicks sussed now, so will keep practising to improve my rhythm, stick to the beat. however, i thought ok, i know the notes, let me see if i can work out if the root note (starting note) is the 'key'. 10th fret on E is a D, so is it in the key of D? right, lets see, what notes am i playing... looks like D C# B A G G#. ok, so are they the notes in a D scale?
turns out theyre not, looking at the scale pattern for D ive got D E F# G A B C# D
so, my working outs wrong 😀 like i said, not wishing to derail this thread with a load of boring theory posts which i can get eventually from my course, but thought id just ask what the flaw was in my thinking.
Ive watched lots of bass buzz vids but that 2nd blues video is exceptional!
I owe you a pint mate! cheers 🍻