[Closed] Basic Income - Finland going for it.

I guess one benefit is it is probably much cheaper to implement. I'm guessing we spend hundreds of millions (if not billions) administering benefits in the UK.

No one knows. Experiments so far have been promising, and it's good that more are being run. If they're very successful, expect to hear a lot of "[country] is different because [thing]".

I totally get why it would work for those on low wages - the benefit of working s greater.
I get it would do away with huge bureaucracy and losses.

I suspect it may encourage those who want to slack / do as little as possible.
I suspect that a few will be disadvantaged, but can't work out who.

Pay for it with a Land Value Tax and we'll be getting somewhere

There is a risk that a whole bunch of people decide to subsist and/or top themselves up on the black economy thus reduced tax take (of course, people do this already). Not sure whether this is a real risk...depends on the level of the basic income I guess. Plus, you'll still need a bunch of other benefits, disabilities/children/housing perhaps. So it won't eliminate all the bureaucracy. I still think it's worth trying out though.

Confused - thread title says Finland but OP link is about Canada? Has the link content been changed?

Sorry, it was in the news that Finland's new govt is to implement it. The only research I could find was on that Canadian link...

@thecaptain - I think the point of it being that you won't pay extra in the vast majority of cases. It is for every person, from birth to death, with no requirements. The baby or child gets as much as the working parent, the same as the pensioner etc The only additional benefits are to those who need permanent extra costs - disabled mainly.

Surely not the same payment for babies and children? Pop out a couple and you're sorted...5 and you're positively rich (until they leave home).

but like I said, I do like the principle.

Yep, same payment for all.

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business/11243-is-finland-ready-for-a-basic-income-2.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Not read the link but what is to stop me turning up in Finland and claiming the money?

You get to sack 10s of thousands of civil servants.

matt_outandabout - Member
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business/11243-is-finland-ready-for-a-basic-income-2.html

Interesting read.

I suspect it may encourage those who want to slack / do as little as possible.

So what? they end up living on the basic. Their choice.

I like the idea, and it would kerb professional benefit applicants, so called red tape and admin. However, it would be tricky to regulate the attraction it would have on the outside world i.e. one thing the article mentions is that the only stipulation is that you live there. Not sure if it could work in reality.

edit - zippy's point-

matt_oab, most proposals are (quite reasonably) for a smaller payment for children, apart from the few cases where the payment is pretty negligible. Have the Finns actually agreed on a detailed proposal yet?

I think the Green Party (England and Wales) proposal was for children to receive less (similar level to current Child Benefit).

I'm a big fan, but I would be 🙂

I suspect it may encourage those who want to slack / do as little as possible.

There are a few such. But (hopefully) the talent, enthusiasm and creativity unleashed in loads of people who previously had to work endless hours in grindingly grim jobs to make rent would more than make up for it. Some people will take the piss, they always do. But so many people who could be doing more are wasted.

I suspect that a few will be disadvantaged, but can't work out who.

The IFS damaged UK greens pretty badly before the election by pointing out that there would be some people who get a lot in benefits who would end up with less under the Greens' basic income proposal. I can't recall, but I think it was to do with housing benefit. I suspect that if you abolish housing benefit then you do quite a lot to reduce rent inflation though.

So Finland is large and empty. I could go over there, build a cabin in the woods and claim the wage, and loaf around all the time..?

You could. But you'd probably do something else with your time, other than pure loafing.

And what you chose to do would probably either be economically productive or socially useful. Possibly both.

🙂

I suspect it may encourage those who want to slack / do as little as possible.

So what? they end up living on the basic. Their choice.

Yep. Even a load of highly paid professional jobs look likely to be replaced by software in a few decades. If we're heading for >50% unemployment, then we absolutely have to destigmatise it and find ways of coping without just letting a load of people starve. Letting corporations, startups and automation just continue concentrating wealth does not seem like a viable option, for anyone.

Letting corporations, startups and automation just continue concentrating wealth does not seem like a viable option, for anyone.

An unholy alliance of tech people and the rich are hoping most of us just die off.

🙁

An unholy alliance of tech people and the rich are hoping most of us just die off.

And what you chose to do would probably either be economically productive or socially useful. Possibly both.

Or neither. There'll always be a more or less fixed portion of society that's prepared to live on next to nothing so they don't have to work. If you account for them, then all the people who want to do something can do so.

It might result in a lot more charity or altruistic work too.. hmm..

Even a load of highly paid professional jobs look likely to be replaced by software in a few decades.

We've done this before. I'm intensely sceptical of that. These highly paid skilled people are unlikely to just sit around scratching their arses if their job gets replaced, imo. Enough of them will start new businesses in new areas to employ the rest.

With the level of basic income that is being mooted in Finland, I could see either me or the missus giving up one of our jobs. Save a bundle on the child care bill. Staying at home to look after kids, get the chores done, leaving more free quality time as a family (plus the odd bike ride of course). And with all that free time I can see at least some being used to benefit the community, at the very least parent helper at the kids school, and contributing more to the scout/guide groups. Things which we struggle to do as a family with young children and both working full time jobs.

They're talking about 450-650 €, I read. Just for comparison when I lived in Helsinki 10 years ago my decent 1 bed flat rent was 650 € and that was in a middling area.

2x that would about cover the mortgage, plus whatever % is classed as basic imcome for children, plus saving on child care and other associated costs of working. Would get by alright with just one income on top of that. Certainly worth the financial hit for the life improvements it would bring.

Interesting isn't it? Putting life ahead of profit!

It'll never catch on.

Even a load of highly paid professional jobs look likely to be replaced by software in a few decades.

We've done this before. I'm intensely sceptical of that.

They've been saying this since the 50s..

Most of the time, when we create SW tools to automate 'X', you just move on to looking at problem Y which was obscured by X. You never stop automating things / creating new things.

They've been saying this since the 50s..

The 1750s.

It's not a case of 'what're all these people going to do now?' it's more like 'we've now got all these spare people, what else can we get them to do?'

Live in a cabin in the woods like most Finn's?

[img] [/img]

Interesting idea. In terms of the future, technology has only just started to take away our employment - see https://medium.com/basic-income/self-driving-trucks-are-going-to-hit-us-like-a-human-driven-truck-b8507d9c5961 for a well thought through example. We need to come up with some other way of providing people with both money, and a purpose in life if traditional work no longer exists for many current jobs.

This idea is covered in a sci fi book I recently read. Set in the future where the earths population excedes the amount of possible jobs. It had some sort of testing after education to decide if you would go onto further education and employment or recieve "basic".

regarding "possible jobs", I never seem to have any difficulty thinking up more of them - roughly two new ones for everything I tick off the to-do list!

No need for Basic for you then thecaptain! You pass the test and can help contribute to humanities future 🙂

nach - Member

Yep. Even a load of highly paid professional jobs look likely to be replaced by software in a few decades. If we're heading for >50% unemployment, then we absolutely have to destigmatise it and find ways of coping without just letting a load of people starve.

Yup, this. The current system is, at heart, all about coercing people into doing things they don't want to do, by withholding the necessities of life if they refuse. But increasingly, we're finding better ways to get things done, which means it's no longer as necessary to coerce a large workforce. But we're not even thinking about the other side of the equation.