[Closed] Barbell squats and dead lifts. How many reps and weight?

Seems reasonable, do you specifically need to get stronger?
You could mix in some different exercises, like Leg press, seated rows with a lighter weight if you know you will be going for a ride.

Seems reasonable, do you specifically need to get stronger?
You could mix in some different exercises, like Leg press, seated rows with a lighter weight if you know you will be going for a ride.

That's an interesting question. I think my motivation was more to try and build my chicken legs up as I did feel they were a bit too thin.

Maybe not riding the next day is just something that you need to do after a hard leg day?

Your asking the wrong questions .

The answer is to space out leg days.

Cycling is a leg day.

Yes you could lower the intensity but that will lower the effective of the build of muscle.

I think as you get older you have to plan exercise more thoroughly as recovery takes longer. What about a heavy session where you aim to increase weight every 8 weeks or so on a fortnightly basis and mix in a wide variety of other movements 'semi heavy' in the intervening weeks.

Edit - Very true trail rat, The planning would come in handy there. Personally I dont want to see cycling as part of my exercise routine even though it is, I want to view it purely as entertainment.

You might find a quality protein shake soon after the workout will ease the doms.

Also 8 reps of DL could be a bit much if youre near your 1RM. Maybe just build to your 1RM then two sets of three.

Squats and DLs on the same day can be overkill too. All depends how close to your 1RM you are though i guess.

Flanagaj I would like to know what your goals are. From your post I am presuming that you want to get stronger.

However, being on Singletrack it might also be reasonable to presume that you do a fair amount of long distance 'endurance' type riding. Skill and strength will help with your riding to some extent if this is the case. If you do mainly endurance type exercise this will actually result in loss of muscle mass. This is in itself a good (and healthy) reason to get stronger, especially as we lose muscle mass over the years and it ultimately leads to frailty (you are quite obviously a very long way off that).

Given that you want to get stronger and your numbers you need to be lifting weights far more often ie three times per week. You also need to be adding weight to the bar every session (not once every two months) at your stage of strength development. I would strongly suggest beginning by looking into Starting Strength and doing a novice linear progression.

I'm 44 and was probably at a similar strength level to you a couple of years ago. By following a linear progression I was able to almost double my numbers after several months. I now weigh about 84kg at around 17% body fat (not skinny by any means) and my deadlift is approaching 200kg, which would not be at all competitive for a powerlifter...

I do mainly BMX at the moment though so perhaps the improvement in strength is of greater benefit to me than it would be for a mainly endurance rider.

I’d whack the stronglifts app on your phone and go fro there it’s good for working/tracking the weight. Makes it simple and easy.

You may also be squatting too deep so get someone to check your style, also there’s no heavy session it’s always heavy, if it’s easy the weights too light :-), it’s effective use of weight and gym time this is where the app comes in.

I used to ride an gym four days a week(bit keen 3 would probably do )without Doms the riding seemed to help with active recovery but was also doing healthy eating and protein shakes/pancakes YMMV.

Thanks for the replies. Now I'll be honest and say it's confused me even more.

My main aim on the bike is long distance cycle touring. So during the winter months it's 2 - 3 rides / week of 2 hour duration and the one strength training session. I also switch to mountain biking when the trails are dry.

The strength training was originally started to improve posterior chain strength. It has really worked and the back and core feel really strong. I also feel the squats have built up the legs and improved my sprinting.

I just feel it's a catch 22 as training for endurance requires time in the saddle and that is difficult if the legs feel really tired from strength training.

If I ride 3 times / week with 2 hard gym sessions I start to feel pretty wacked after a couple of weeks.

What do you have post workout?
I found taking Maltodextrin post workout works well for my recovery. I stick it in a protein shake mixed with water and just chug it immediately after a session and it seems to kick start my recovery. It replaces depleted glycogen in your muscles and I have more energy the day after. Maltodextrin gets a bad press in processed foods etc but used correctly after an intense session and as part of a balanced diet it works for me.

You are right that you can't do everything, although I'm sure you would eventually adapt by increasing your work capacity.

For long term health and happiness as well as well as efficiency strength is more fundamental than 'endurance'. I would spend 6 months getting stronger with Starting Strength (or Stronglifts) and reduce the amount of endurance work for that time if needed. You will benefit greatly in the long term.

If I ride 3 times / week with 2 hard gym sessions I start to feel pretty wacked after a couple of weeks.

Hmmm well you are getting on a bit now 🙂

Gotta make sure your getting enough sleep as well and perhaps make sure you have an extra rest day somewhere around when your whacked.

I’m assuming in your week you do have a rest day when you don’t train or ride. Its easy to overtrain if you get keen.

My main aim on the bike is long distance cycle touring. So during the winter months it’s 2 – 3 rides / week of 2 hour duration and the one strength training session. I also switch to mountain biking when the trails are dry.

Winters hard I commute so I get my training for free which then let’s me do longer rides in summer time when it’s enjoyable.(Enjoyment is key to all this)

What’s your issue with the long distance touring that’s holding you back?

I'm planning on mixing Stronglifts (only once or twice a week) with lots of riding, but I am planning to keep the riding very relaxed, zone 2 base miles on road mostly. I think this will work based on experience. I am going to to back off slightly from failure with the weights, since strength is not my top priority. So if I think I might fail next time I might repeat a weight next time.

My approach is to train legs every day. Don’t go anywhere near failure. Do less sets. Total volume will be higher than training once a week and you won’t be incapacitated.

Have a watch of this:

To be honest you would be able to manage 3 gym sessions and 3 rides per week (which is what I do) especially because you are not competing in long distance cycling.

You say:
"The strength training was originally started to improve posterior chain strength. It has really worked and the back and core feel really strong. I also feel the squats have built up the legs and improved my sprinting."

You will get a lot of well meaning but misguided advice about strength training on a cycling site. Why don't you have a look at how really strong people suggest that you start out with strength training. Look at Starting Strength and Barbell Medicine websites. Lots of evidence based information on strength, nutrition, rest, and also advice on conditioning/general physical prep on the latter site.

I think there's lots of good ideas on this thread. I used starting strength but switched to 531 as I found heavy squats and deads on every session quite taxing. 531 has many different templates by a guy called Jim wendler, he's an ex power lifter and now strength coach and is in some vids with rippoetoe who created SS.

Strength training will tax your biking and they will have to be programmed together but it can be done. I change my programming as we go through the seasons.

The answer is to space out leg days.

Does depend on which muscles you're training, the quads (primary squat and cycling muscle) has one of the fastest recovery rates e.g. 5x faster than hamstrings...

But I think it also depends on what kind of training is being done. Base training should fit in with weights I think but it's rather hard to keep the intensity low enough off road.

But probably also depends on how trained the muscles already are. 25 years of riding has made my legs pretty tough so I can do 5x5 at a high weight - I think I am able to activate them well, not sure how it works. After heavy squats my legs do feel tired.

But my arms particularly during overhead press are pathetic because I can't yet activate them very well. I struggle to press 35kg but since that's really not that heavy I don't really feel tired the following day.

If you're interested in more detail in the differences in muscles, Chris Beardesly has an excellent article on Medium:

https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/how-do-different-types-of-fatigue-affect-hypertrophy-and-recovery-4b5bd500bcb?fbclid=IwAR2hAkD7_qK6i665Z5nD_3zk7EvjZkAh_EVnZxuO6bEUdjzKGP-1XoUrV5k

He's well worth following on FB if you're into Strength and Conditioning research. However, if you're into Bro-science, I wouldn't bother 😉

That graph certainly rings true for me. Hamstrings and glutes are way more tender and for longer than my quads. It is still difficult to know what is the optimal balance of cycling / strength training when being a stick thin cyclist is not your number one aim.

It would be interesting to know how much strength training does help when doing multi day cycle trips compared with if you didn't and just spent all your time riding your bike.

I watched the video link and it was very interesting. I spend an hour at the gym and do leave feeling like I have worked every muscle to exhaustion. I should maybe split the gym session into 2 days with one day being squats / DL and core and the other day can be core / upper and lunges.

If anyone is interested in an evidence based weight lifting program, try this app.

https://www.ebtofficial.com/drmuscle

NB Not tried it myself, but I follow them on FB and they talk a lot of sense plus reference everything back to studies.

That graph certainly rings true for me. Hamstrings and glutes are way more tender and for longer than my quads.

If you think about human lifestyles, we live a quad dominate existence, so you'd expect the quads to have a high work capacity and good recovery ability. Only sprinters / footballers really stress their hamstrings, so they're not a muscle that has evolved a high work tolerance.

It is still difficult to know what is the optimal balance of cycling / strength training when being a stick thin cyclist is not your number one aim.

They're really contradictory activities, to get big you need to follow a hypertrophy program, whereas cycling is an endurance activity, so completely different training protocol. As a general rule, only track cyclists have large legs and they spend a lot of time doing squats etc to build mass.

Regarding Starting Strength and 5/3/1, yes SS will get taxing once you have increased the weight significantly but it programmes reducing deadlift frequency and other alterations for the advanced novice.

The Starting Strength (or any other) novice linear progression generally only lasts a few months. The definition of Novice is being able to add weight to the bar every session (really encouraging times).

After this, an intermediate will only be able to add weight each week and it's time to add more volume and reduce the intensity slightly with something like 5/3/1 or another intermediate programme (I'm on my third template from Barbell Medicine).

There is no point deliberately reducing the intensity of strength training (unless you are a competitive endurance athlete perhaps) if you have never completed a novice linear progression. You will just be wasting time in the gym. It's only a few months in the whole scheme of things that you may or may not have to reduce your cycling. Having said that I still cycled 2-3x per week (mainly BMX and trail riding of an hour max) although it probably made it more difficult than necessary...

The OP stated that he struggles at reps 3 onwards, so that's why I suggested 531. Also, there are now 531 beginner templates. You may not add weight every session but you still add strength as you add reps.

Personally, I found the volume work in barbell medicine to be too high an intensity and I grinded.

Any good template will work, just depends what the priority is at the time.

Might sound a bit harsh, but a guy mid 40s doing a few light (less than bodyweight - heavy doesn't start until 2x bw) squats once a week, whilst doing some non-competeitive bike riding is going to struggle not to improve significantly if he starts any kind of training with a bit of intensity.

Your legs are meant to hurt the day after squats (and the day after that...) but it shouldn't stop you riding a bike. And at this level it's hard not to improve. Actually the previous two posters said it a bit more nicely 😀...

Your legs are meant to hurt the day after squats (and the day after that…) but it shouldn’t stop you riding a bike.

The problem is cumulative though. Squat one day, ride the next day with achey legs, then the next day in the gym your legs are even more tired so you struggle to do your weight.

I have found that high intensity riding is not compatible with several weight sessions a week, for me.

No need to squat more than twice a week, not saying there's no element of compromise, just that we're not talking athlete pushing at the margins here...

Might sound a bit harsh, but a guy mid 40s doing a few light (less than bodyweight – heavy doesn’t start until 2x bw) squats once a week, whilst doing some non-competeitive bike riding is going to struggle not to improve significantly if he starts any kind of training with a bit of intensity.

Harsh, but 100% correct. I am conscious what I squat and DL is pathetic when I look at other guys in the gym. Trouble is, I'm not sure how to slowly build it up as I have been around the 65-70Kg mark now for over 2 years and just cannot seem to progress it. At 70Kg my legs at rep 4 are struggling to get the weight back up and like I said previously my legs will feel tired for a day or 2 after the session and can really hinder the cycling.

The problem is cumulative though. Squat one day, ride the next day with achey legs, then the next day in the gym your legs are even more tired so you struggle to do your weight.

I have found that high intensity riding is not compatible with several weight sessions a week, for me.

I totally agree with this statement and this is what I find. Nutrition and extra protein intake does not seem to make much difference to me with regards to recovery time either.

My tuppence.

I'd consider how your training fits in over the week, month and year. It looks like 4/5 sessions a week are your max to allow a bit of recovery time, I'd consider seasonal training where at this point of the year do more gym stuff and less biking. I'd also consider a periodised training where over 4 weeks you build up and factor in a recovery week. As you approach the time where your tours are happening switch to more biking. I'd also say that whilst stronglifts and stuff is great and I've enjoyed a few blocks of it, if you are looking for cycling gains and a wee bit of size in your legs then a hypertrophy type range will be better and I'd think of some classes which work the full body. Imo there is better crossover to cycling with this type of training.

You've not mentioned how you progress with either the strength session or the 2hr cycling sessions. Does vary?

I'm a hair younger than you (44), and a chunk lighter(64kg). Have been doing a cycling dedicated strength session once a week for about 4 years now.

We tend to do 4 sets of 6 or 8 reps. For me that's generally around bodyweight for squat, 1.5x for DL and bodyweight for hipthrusts (like a glute bridge but starting from a sitting position, back against a bench)

I'd say if you're struggling after 2 or 3 reps, then you need to back off the weight. Maybe go a lot lighter and a lot more volume to build up the capacity to work? (its how we started - eg goblet squats at 12 reps for 6 weeks or so)

DOMS? Yep, and? Ironically the least I've suffered was when I was doing the 16 mile 1000' of vert round trip to the gym by bike. The ride home was initially horrible, but over the course of 6 months it got easier and more enjoyable and it spun my legs out lovely. Ace conditioning too (both physical and mental). Felt like I could ride for ever last summer, as nothing ever hurt as much as the first climb on the way back from the gym.

Body weight for hip thruster makes my 25kg really pathetic. I find the current hip thruster of 3 * 12 reps hits the glutes weigh harder than the 70Kg squat.

On reflection it might have been an idea to have worked with a strength and conditioning coach who could have put together a plan for the winter with the aim to be feeling really fit and strong for the 80 - 100 mile back to back days that I do when I cycle tour.

Although I have done plenty of cycle tours without issue you do always wonder how you can improve things so that your training on the bike and in the gym is as optimal and actually making your stronger and fitter.

I should also say that we tend to do hipthrusts OR squats, not usually both in the same session.

The coach reckons HT's work the same muscles as squats, so you should end up moving around the same weight. Once I'd got my head round them, actually adding weight went pretty easily.

(BTW - you are using a pad on the bar aren't you? Be reet nasty without...!)

At the moment my wight training consists of 2 sessions a week.

Workout A

Squats
Bench press
barbell row
kettlebell swings

Workout B

Deadlifts
Shoulder press
pull-ups
kettlebell swings

For Oct/Nov/Dec I basically follow the principle of adding weight progressively at every session doing 5 sets of 5 reps (plus warmups for each exercise, which is important), if i fail to do 5x5 then add no weight but try again next week, if I fail 2 weeks then deload and build up again.
During those 3 months I tend to find that pretty much fries me, and cycling, running ect takes a back seat.

Once that 3 month period is over I deload, and basically stick to the same weights for the rest of the year, but just adjust volume ie 2 weeks of 3 sets x 5 reps, 1 week of 4x5 and 1 week of 5x5, then repeat. I find this does not negatively affect other exercise too much. Also if I know I have a big week of riding ahead (or maybe a race) then I would not lift weights in the week beforehand.

I am 49 now, and there is no way I can lift heavy and cycle as much as I want to, something has to give. I think 3 months of decent effort in the weight room is enough as long as you don't give up for the remaining 9 months.

I also think lifting weights is really good for general health and longevity, since starting back lifting weights I have far less joint and back aches.

Another thing is, train for health and strength not for size, some people just have chicken legs, don't let it worry you (look at Jon Jones UFC champion steroid muncher).

What muscles are used predominately in a squat is affected by how you squat. Some are very hamstring dominant with a wide stance and some people do it with a narrow stance and use more quads. This is somewhat down to hip structure and mobility. My ankles have awful mobility so I box squat to get a more quad active squat without the back stress that limits my squatting.

At the moment I'm getting success with 2 hard squat sets on 2 different days. One is a 15-20 rep set (aka widowmaker)@ 60-70% of 1rm, and the other is a heavy set at around 80-85%. Both these sessions have warm up sets. Mentioned just to show there's a range of approaches.

Also, I've noticed that my friends who can knock me out the park on endurance and eat far less than me, have trouble bringing their strength up in the gym. Less calories for building.

I can manage far more, and I feel better if I eat lots of carbs. However I know I'll never get any lighter if I do that, which is why I'm trying to find a balance. Sounds like tailsmtb is similar to me. I'm good at eating!

If you can't progress using low reps, you probably want to move to a more hypertrophic rep range eg 8-12 and do sets, of lighter weights, to failure. Combine this with eating more protein and you should gain some mass (genetics permitting). However, I'd recommend doing this in your cycling off season as gaining mass whilst doing endurance cycling is much harder!

The reps you do and number of sets depends entirely on where you are in your routine (your routine does include periodisation, right?) for your current goals.

You can read more around periodisation here:
https://www.strongerbyscience.com/making-your-novice-strength-training-routine-more-effective-two-quick-tips/

Lack of proper periodisation is the biggest downfall of beginner routines like SS, 5x5, etc.

> 1. What sort of weight should you ideally be lifting. Should it be a percentage of your max 1 rep?

Well, every lift ever will be a percentage of your 1 rep max. What percentage depends on your rep ranges (read article above)

> 2. Would hitting legs more than once a week help or just make them even more tired?

I hit legs twice a week following an upper/lower split routine. I use Lyle McDonalds Generic Bulking Routine, but there are many others. The current thinking is that hitting groups twice a week is most efficient and provides ample recovery time if you give a 2 day rest for each group.

ie: Upper,lower,rest,upper,lower,rest,(rest or repeat Sunday). This has you hitting upper Monday, and then you'll hit upper again Thursday, allowing Tues, Weds rest for that group.

I hit legs twice a week following an upper/lower split routine. I use Lyle McDonalds Generic Bulking Routine, but there are many others. The current thinking is that hitting groups twice a week is most efficient and provides ample recovery time if you give a 2 day rest for each group.

How can you give 2 days rest if you also want to factor in 3 * 2 hour cycle rides / week?

Quite frankly, i'm not cycling at the moment - training only.

3 sets * 5 reps 70 Kg barbell squat (I do have to pause at 3 to 4 reps as I’m struggling and I do do a very deep squat)

If youve been training for a while and you're stuggling at any point (regardless of depth) with 3 x 5 sets of less than bodyweight, then you need to go back to the drawing board somewhere. I would expect an inexperienced lifter to possibly struggle but I suspect youre not a beginner.

If be looking to mix the program up. I'd look at starting a program with higher reps and lower weight and work down from there over the weeks to get to that 3x5 comfortably.

I get 3 PT coaching sessions a week and Monday is squat night. My programme gets changed every 6 weeks and it tends to follow the setup above. We're back at the start and this week it was 10/10/8/8 squats with the sets of 8 at 90kg (also my bodyweight). Over the coming weeks we'll start to drop the reps and increase the weight, going for a very heavy 2 in the last week (160kg ish) then repeat the cycle.

I've found that to be a much better approach than just banging out the same sets and reps every week

Probably the most overlooked part of getting strong doing the big compound lifts is thoracic mobility, worth putting some mobility exercises in the mix to avoid future injuries.

Tailsmtb I highly recommend squat shoes. Do-win are good if your feet are on the wide side and cheap.

Starting Strength doesn't have periodisation because it is for novice lifters. There is a lot of good advice in here but I suggest simplicity for the OP:

Do 3 months or so of Novice Linear Progression. Back off the cycling a bit if you have to or just accept a bit of soreness when it starts to get more intense. You need to learn proper technique as well (no you don't need a pad for heavy low bar back squats in fact that's a bad idea). You will double your lifts and significantly improve your life.

After 3 months or so of this you will be in a position of much better strength, knowledge about training and how your body responds. If you don't do a period of linear progression you will very likely always be a novice lifters, which is fine, but 3-4 months is nothing in the scheme of things.

All the best!