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I actually feel nauseous now.
Just avoid this:
https://groceries.asda.com/product/cat-kitten-milk/whiskas-kitten-cat-milk-bottle-3-x/2110661
It doesn't even state if it's Persian or Siamese, so I think we have to asume it's harvested from Moggies and alley cats.
TBH you do get used to UHT in the 'otter climes 🙂
I have found in date and tangy UHT milk so don't think it lasts forever.
How about they just actually deliver what they took her money for?
The service is what it is - and it is designed (and baked into terms and conditions) that it will work for the majority of people the majority of the time.
I use sainsburys. If they are delivering a shorter life product the will email me ahead of the deliver to say so. Same with substitutions. This is so I know what items to check when the driver arrives. I don’t know how they determine if something is shorter life, but it’s generally been a fair approximation.
Sometimes things are not available, or have a shorter date, this is an accepted reality of a delivery service which is offset by the convenience it offers. If the way the service operates does not work for an individual there are other services out there - including (but not limited to) going into a shop.
TBH you do get used to UHT in the ‘otter climes 🙂
Condensed milk was indespendable to British Empire building.
After a hard day's subjugating the natives a nice refreshing afternoon tiffin would not have been the same if that lovely cup of pick-me-up tea hadn't had a dash of condensed milk in it.
Although undoubtedly in that damn heat they must have dreamt of fresh British milk being delivered to their doorstep in pea green vans.
The poster said the person bought “in large quantities to sell at RRP+ at Christmas”. Also he’d done it often enough to be noticed and therefore banned from a number of stores.
I stand by my original analysis, worthless scalper parasite tosspot.
You do know how "shops" work, right? Or for that matter, shares?
IF he's hoovering up the entire stock of hard-to-find items (such as concert tickets, or hand gel and toilet roll a couple of years ago) and in doing so is preventing regular customers from buying them, I would 100% agree with you. But there's no indication that that's what's happening here, is there?
He's bought a product legitimately, it's his to do what he likes with. If its value has appreciated and he wants to sell it, then why not? Something is only ever worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. Some folk pay millions for a few daubs of paint on a bit of canvas.
IF he’s hoovering up the entire stock of hard-to-find items (such as concert tickets, or hand gel and toilet roll a couple of years ago) and in doing so is preventing regular customers from buying them, I would 100% agree with you. But there’s no indication that that’s what’s happening here, is there?
Well...
Only ever buying stuff on offer and in large quantities, to then sell at RRP+ on eBay in the run up to Xmas
Cougar
You do know how “shops” work, right? Or for that matter, shares?
IF he’s hoovering up the entire stock of hard-to-find items (such as concert tickets, or hand gel and toilet roll a couple of years ago) and in doing so is preventing regular customers from buying them, I would 100% agree with you. But there’s no indication that that’s what’s happening here, is there?
He’s bought a product legitimately, it’s his to do what he likes with. If its value has appreciated and he wants to sell it, then why not? Something is only ever worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. Some folk pay millions for a few daubs of paint on a bit of canvas.
Thanks for that, Mr Logic.
It is obvious the items are hard to find and/or limited quantities otherwise scalping is not profitable. Nobody would pay RRP+ 50% or more if they could simply walk into Smyths and buy one.
It's not someone looking for a Rembrandt or a Porsche GT3 RS it's a toy: many parents will be on the look out all year round for discounts on item they know their child will want for Christmas or their birthday, but they are otherwise unable to afford. So this gentleman (and many others doing the same) hoovering these up DOES prevent legit customers being able to buy them.
I couldn't care less if he's legitimately bought them, he's a ****ing tosspot, and I'm glad the shops banned him.
They were hard to find, yet he bought them quite readily in bulk from a retailer?
There's a lot of conclusion-jumping here. You could be right. But is there anything to suggest limited quantities or that the parents couldn't have planned ahead and done exactly what he did? They can't afford [toy] when it's on offer in July but they can afford to pay over RRP on December 20th? If as you say they're "on the look out all year round for discounts" then, well, that's exactly what he was doing, no?
Again. IF he's depriving people of legitimate purchases, I agree with you. IF he's selling stuff that was discontinued months ago then he's actually providing a service. From the information provided, neither of us know which is the case.
TBH you do get used to UHT in the ‘otter climes
We used to be able to get fresh milk in the supermarket in Saudi in the early '80s.
the online grocery services are actually subsidised by shoppers who go to the store,
This suggests that online shopping items are cheaper than in-store items?
This suggests that online shopping items are cheaper than in-store items?
I think it's more that they have to pay to bring it to you.
Dude, if you’re drinking Nescafe coffee you have absolutley no room to talk! 😀
That was the point. Even drinking that shite was better without UHT. Besides, it's difficult to pop out to the shops when you're 2 weeks from port in the middle of the Pacific. You might get a special luggage allowance but you still need to get it up the ladder and a cafetiere in your baggage is asking to be broken. (aeropress wasn't about then).
How much do you think she should be paying out of her state pension ?
How about they just actually deliver what they took her money for?
because there's a higher cost of doing that. The service, as offered, gives extremely cheap selection and supply of your groceries with the odd mistake/substitution. For the vast majority of the public, thats pretty much perfect. The alternate might be a service which costs 2-3x as much, and gets it bang on every time. That might be better for your mum, but worse for pretty much everyone else.
More UHT for me then! Milky milky! lovely.
Even drinking that shite was better without UHT.
You should go to the US, home of the long-life "non-dairy creamer." 🤮
the online grocery services are actually subsidised by shoppers who go to the store,
This suggests that online shopping items are cheaper than in-store items?
What it means is that what supermarkets charge for home delivery comes nowhere near the cost of providing that home delivery. It's simply not possible to pay a picker, a driver, run software systems, lease, repair crash damage and fuel a van for the price that supermarkets charge. Therefore the cost of providing that is included in the cost of every item in the store so shoppers who go to the store and pick their own shopping are subsidising the online shoppers.
The supermarkets could close down home delivery tomorrow, reduce their store prices and still make the same profit.
The only thing that stops a shop quitting home delivery is the fear that all the customers would go to a shop that continues to home deliver.
The supermarkets could close down home delivery tomorrow, reduce their store prices and still make the same profit.
its not quite as simple as that. Home delivery and physical shop are co-dependent. The online shopping keeps some stores open by providing a need for it as a localised hub. Its a bit like business class and economy class seats on a plane. Business class provides all the profit, but you can't run an airline as business only because someone needs to fill the rest of the plane up so they can run regularly
They can’t afford [toy] when it’s on offer in July but they can afford to pay over RRP on December 20th? If as you say they’re “on the look out all year round for discounts” then, well, that’s exactly what he was doing, no?
I don't think you have kids but predicting what they'll want for Christmas any earlier than about 15th Dec is a total fool's errand. Now, you can counter-argue that in predicting and buying up in advance he's taking the risk that he's going to get it wrong but in breadline Britain that's not a luxury hard-up parents have, to buy stuff they aren't sure their kids want 6 months in advance.
And yes, the other easy answer is to say 'well just don't buy it then' but again, I don't think you have kids?
There’s always an alternative to UHT:
It says "long life" on the carton so presumably it is UHT.
I bet it doesn't taste half as nice as fresh camel's milk.
It doesn't apper to be in a fridge, so presumably it is UHT.
UHT Camels milk, I'm tempted to try some.
UHT Camels milk
Would that be one lump or two?
What it means is that what supermarkets charge for home delivery comes nowhere near the cost of providing that home delivery.
Can easily believe this. Was on holiday in probably the most difficult to get to part of the Lakes on holiday last week and got 2 ASDA orders delivered directly to our tent door for the princely sum of £2 picking fee plus £2.50 delivery.
It was a 1.5hr round trip to ASDA. Absolutely mind-blowing that you can get supermarket price and quality food delivered to a tent in the middle of nowhere with less than 12 hours notice for the price of a pint in the local pub.
Since we're on the subject of supermarket deliveries I'll leave this here
It was a 1.5hr round trip to ASDA. Absolutely mind-blowing that you can get supermarket price and quality food delivered to a tent in the middle of nowhere with less than 12 hours notice for the price of a pint in the local pub.
You wouldn't be the only one on the route.
Crazy Dutch would all drink fresh cows milk for lunch** but ask for it in your coffee instead of weird yellow creamer and you’d get some right funny looks.
** and eat bread with hundreds and thousands on.
** and eat bread with hundreds and thousands on.
Hagelslag is amazing by the spoonful - I never bothered with the bread.
UHT Camels milk
Would that be one lump or two?
Oh, jolly well done! 🙂
More milk
(I don't know how to get the youtube links in properly, sorry.)
Before I left in 2010, I was a home shopping delivery driver for a smaller Tesco. The sort that wasn't 24hrs so most of the stocking of the shelves happened after closing.
The pickers started before the store openned, so they near enough had first pick of the stock. So if something wasn't in stock for the pickers, it wasn't for any customers. So if something was 'missing' fromn your order, it was because there wasn't any in the shop (so the shopper would have had the same issue if they were doing their shopping in-store).
We did have some funny moaners though.
One woman was quite rude when the pink toilet paper she ordered was out of stock, so was substitued for yellow tilet paper. She sent it back after moaning about how it wouldn't match her bathroom in yellow.
One winters day (a week or so before Christmas), when delivering to one of the furthest houses from the store, in a valley, sinlge lane type place, it was snowing pretty heavily. I was maybe half a mile away from them, but couldn't get up a hill with my rear wheel drive Transit, van was nearly sideways going up a hill, so reversed to a safe place and called the customer. Told them I couldn't make it. They fairly moaned that I should make the delivery. They were a regular so I knew they had a 4x4, I suggested that I could wait and they could drive down to me to collect their shopping, they told me there was no way there were going to drive in this weather haha. They did phone the store to complain that I never delivered their shopping.
Another one, I had a weeks worth of shopping and about 12 bottles of wine to deliver. I arrive at the house, no adults about, only two kids (must have been about 7 and 11/12). Policy was to not leave alcohol with minors, so refunded the wine and took it back to the store. They also phoned in to complain that they never got their booze. Manager pointed out the policy and that they picked the time slot (told me later that he really wanted to also bring up the kids being left alone part, but decided they were irrate enough).
Lots of others, but that'll do for now.
Molgrips
You make it sound like they are not delivering things just because they can’t be bothered.
Either they can't be bothered .. and/or are selling things they don't have.
To STW it.. either it's "in stock", "in stock with supplier", "expected in stock on"...
Lets say you bought a bike from a LBS and paid up front to collect it or have it delivered the next week. Next week comes and they tell you "sorry it was out of stock because someone walked into the shop and we sold it to them instead" or it arrives with no rear wheel because in the meantime they sold the rear wheel to someone else?
Partly they can't be bothered do just take purchased stuff out of stock ... or they are selling stuff they don't actually have and are unwilling at the price to get it in stock.
Either they have a poor process or supporting systems... the question is really WHY perhaps?
I think wwpaddler sums it up ...
The supermarkets could close down home delivery tomorrow, reduce their store prices and still make the same profit.
The only thing that stops a shop quitting home delivery is the fear that all the customers would go to a shop that continues to home deliver.
Compare this with buying online bearings or seals/bushes..
They seem to manage very well and I have never had money taken for an item that wasn't delivered.
A full set of bearings might not be in stock but at least I know and they don't take my money just to find out later and have to order elsewhere because they have both the process and supporting systems in place. They don't sell me some 6902 bearings and substitute some 6903 I can't use.
When it comes to buying bearings I'll usually do baskets with 3-4 online retailers and my primary consideration is delivery and having everything I need. The retailers have the processes and systems and it all works and supermarkets could as well if they committed to it rather than do it 1/2 assed.
seriousrrisk
The service is what it is – and it is designed (and baked into terms and conditions) that it will work for the majority of people the majority of the time.
The thing here is then they/we etc. should stop pretending it's a service for anyone.
The overlap between people who can't go to a supermarket/shop and have dietary requirements is quite large and the most vulnerable almost by definition. (Unable to be vaccinated, co-morbidities, mobility etc. etc.)
Many of them live alone and have lost their friends or partners over the last 2-3 years
5lab
its not quite as simple as that. Home delivery and physical shop are co-dependent. The online shopping keeps some stores open by providing a need for it as a localised hub. Its a bit like business class and economy class seats on a plane. Business class provides all the profit, but you can’t run an airline as business only because someone needs to fill the rest of the plane up so they can run regularly
Both methods provide footfall, one is just virtual.
I feel they are doing this so poorly simply because they are only doing it reluctantly for fear of missing out and if say Tesco stopped home deliveries then they would lose customers (virtual and real footfall) to say Sainsbury's.
Deliberately missing key items is a way to force customers to reorder/or go to the local and both are then likely to get them to purchase additional items.
Similarly they can sell out of date stock without having to reduce it in store.
danposs86
Before I left in 2010, I was a home shopping delivery driver for a smaller Tesco. The sort that wasn’t 24hrs so most of the stocking of the shelves happened after closing.
The pickers started before the store openned, so they near enough had first pick of the stock. So if something wasn’t in stock for the pickers, it wasn’t for any customers. So if something was ‘missing’ fromn your order, it was because there wasn’t any in the shop (so the shopper would have had the same issue if they were doing their shopping in-store).
Hence the point.. they aren't really trying. Why would they put stuff onto shelves that's already sold only to send someone to take it back off the shelves if its not purchased in the meantime?
One woman was quite rude when the pink toilet paper she ordered was out of stock, so was substitued for yellow tilet paper. She sent it back after moaning about how it wouldn’t match her bathroom in yellow.
Not that I personally care what colour but why sell something you don't have?
Not that I personally care what colour but why sell something you don’t have?
Maybe it was in stock at the point the buyer clicked "buy now" and by the time the picker had come to wander around the store getting it all, it was out of stock?
Hence the point.. they aren’t really trying. Why would they put stuff onto shelves that’s already sold only to send someone to take it back off the shelves if its not purchased in the meantime?
At a guess, because the effort to direct a percentage of the incoming stock to "over here where we store what we think is going to be picked in the next day or so" and the remainder to "out here on the shop floor where anyone can buy it" is far too much for the actual return on investment which, as noted, is not actually making the store any money.
Supermarkets also run a just-in-time system to ensure that food, especially fruit & veg, is not just sitting around - they'll know from the vast amounts of data-mining that goes on from loyalty cards etc stuff like seasonal produce and expected runs on things (eg hot weather = BBQ food, ice cream, beer all at higher than normal sales) but splitting online and in-store is extra work that they don't need.
Yellow toilet paper in place of pink is a fairly reasonable substitution I'd say.
An onion in place of a lemon probably isn't but it won't be a picker making that choice, it'll be a computer somewhere - when the picker goes to the aisle to collect X and it's not there, they'll tell the computer and it'll say "try Y or Z"
Compare this with buying online bearings or seals/bushes..
They seem to manage very well and I have never had money taken for an item that wasn’t delivered.
A full set of bearings might not be in stock but at least I know and they don’t take my money just to find out later and have to order elsewhere because they have both the process and supporting systems in place. They don’t sell me some 6902 bearings and substitute some 6903 I can’t use.
Because bearings are small and non-perishable. You can order huge quantities and have them on the shelf ready for customers.
Food is bulky and goes off. You can only order into the shop what you can sell before it goes off. Slightly underestimate that and you run out, slightly overestimate and you generate waste (which pushes prices up, you can't just order 10% more bread or bananas just in case).
Hence the point.. they aren’t really trying. Why would they put stuff onto shelves that’s already sold only to send someone to take it back off the shelves if its not purchased in the meantime?
There isn't a neatly ordered warehouse out the back of the supermarket, it IS the warehouse. The cages come in from the distribution centers loaded up with what the stock control system sees running out on each isle. Lorry comes in packed with cages, they get stored out back until there's a quiet time, then they get wheeled straight out to the shop floor.
Not that I personally care what colour but why sell something you don’t have?
Stock control isn't perfect. Wastage, theft, etc. Maybe the pink bog roll delivery got wet. Maybe it was in stock 3 days ago when the order was placed but had sold out by the time the pickers went out to collect it a few hours before the delivery slot.
I don’t think you have kids but predicting what they’ll want for Christmas any earlier than about 15th Dec is a total fool’s errand. Now, you can counter-argue that in predicting and buying up in advance he’s taking the risk that he’s going to get it wrong but in breadline Britain that’s not a luxury hard-up parents have, to buy stuff they aren’t sure their kids want 6 months in advance.
And yes, the other easy answer is to say ‘well just don’t buy it then’ but again, I don’t think you have kids?
I mean,
Yes?
But then that's the point, he's speculating. He could come out of it really badly if he gets it wrong. How much stuff did he buy that -didn't- sell at a markup?
You're saying that the parents can't "buy stuff they aren’t sure their kids want 6 months in advance" or even ten days before Christmas, yet he's a monster because he can seemingly do exactly that with stuff someone else's kids might want?
You're right, I'm not a parent, but if I had a kid who's present choice had a deadline window of a fortnight before they were no longer interested then I'd figure that they didn't really want it all that badly in the first place.
yeah, nah.
Either they can’t be bothered .. and/or are selling things they don’t have.
To STW it.. either it’s “in stock”, “in stock with supplier”, “expected in stock on”…
The way that online orders work for most supermarkets is that you place your order, and choose a date/time for delivery. Then, prior to the delivery time on your chosen day, a "picker" will basically walk around the supermarket doing you shopping for you.
Ask yourself what it is you are expecting here: not just for the supermarket to do real-time updates of stock availability (which would be virtually impossible given the scale you are talking about, but that you might also have hundreds of units in people trolleys but not checked-out at any one time) but you are wanting them to use a crystal ball to determine whether they are going to have a 200g pack of wafer thin honey roast ham, on the shelf at 2pm next Wednesday.
The alternative is what? That as soon as an order is placed (like instantly) somebody runs around the store collecting-up all the non perishables, which are then safety stored until next week. Then a second run done before the store opens on the day of the delivery in order to get all the perishable items (with the maximum use by date)? Even then, deliveries arrive at all different times of day - there are still going to be a few missing things. The cost of that service would be prohibitive.
I sympathise with your/your mothers position - but if 100% reliability/accuracy is critically important, then online food shopping is not the right solution. For 99.9% of people though - it's fine.
Back to the original OP..... I used to work in a HUGE sainsburys in the mid/late 90s, which is when they all started taking customer service extremely seriously.
People were demanding car valets because bottles of milk had leaked, returning items that they had dropped halfway accross the car park etc.
It was really noticeable that the majority of rude customers that I experienced were late-middle aged women. I'm aware thats become a stereotype recently, but it was very obvious at the time.
The exception was the Saturday before Christmas. Obviously it was always utter chaos, but more so because ****less husbands would be sent out with a list - terrified that Christmas would be ruined and they'd be in the doghouse because we'd run our of sprouts/chipolatas etc. We had some sensational meltdowns.
One year there were so many people in the shop that we ran-out of trolleys. So people were just walking in and pinching somebody else's from halfway around the store. I think we actually had a couple of punch-ups because of that. I ended up posted on the door (with a big tin of quality street) enforcing a one-in, one-out policy. One bloke actually tried to barge past me when I said he'd have to join the (admittedly large) queue.
Crazy times
IF he’s hoovering up the entire stock of hard-to-find items (such as concert tickets, or hand gel and toilet roll a couple of years ago) and in doing so is preventing regular customers from buying them, I would 100% agree with you. But there’s no indication that that’s what’s happening here, is there?
That’s literally what he was doing in some cases. One of the supermarkets did a ‘half price off all toys’ sale, he went in and bought every GoGo hamster toys they had/would let him have (before it was found they were toxic) amongst other stuff.
With the websites, I assume from his purchasing patterns, they didn’t want to supply what was effectively their competition.
He also did the buying and selling Lego thing, often ‘doing you a favour to get rid of it for you’ etc.
He got a reality check when he had to refund some Michael Jackson tickets, long after he’d spent the proceeds, cause the selfish sod died.
Compare this with buying online bearings or seals/bushes..
Bang on. Just last week I bought a set of bearings only to find they were three days past their sell-by date!
They seem to manage very well and I have never had money taken for an item that wasn’t delivered.
A full set of bearings might not be in stock but at least I know and they don’t take my money just to find out later and have to order elsewhere because they have both the process and supporting systems in place. They don’t sell me some 6902 bearings and substitute some 6903 I can’t use.
Wasn't a well-known bike components retailer notorious for doing exactly that?
That’s literally what he was doing in some cases.
Fair enough, then.
UHT
Mrs_oab used to work in Kirkcudbright Creamery.
The general order of grossness was:
- Fresh Milk
- Cream (for when the fresh milk was being separated as it was about to go off...)
- McDonalds thick shakes and dried milk power-like products (for when the fresh milk was about to go off)
- UHT (for when the milk was just about gone and UHT was last chance to sell a volume of near wasted milk)
- Those 'white lite' wee pots at motorway services. For the really rank milk.
Having heard the maggot stories from the UHT and White Lite lines, 🤮🤮🤮
crazy-legs
Maybe it was in stock at the point the buyer clicked “buy now” and by the time the picker had come to wander around the store getting it all, it was out of stock?
Perhaps .. though I don't get the feeling they are trying. If its ordered then they need to get it off the shelves or reorder a replacement so it can't be purchased by someone else.
I don't disagree the example is a bit trivial though.
At a guess, because the effort to direct a percentage of the incoming stock to “over here where we store what we think is going to be picked in the next day or so” and the remainder to “out here on the shop floor where anyone can buy it” is far too much for the actual return on investment which, as noted, is not actually making the store any money.
Supermarkets also run a just-in-time system to ensure that food, especially fruit & veg, is not just sitting around – they’ll know from the vast amounts of data-mining that goes on from loyalty cards etc stuff like seasonal produce and expected runs on things (eg hot weather = BBQ food, ice cream, beer all at higher than normal sales) but splitting online and in-store is extra work that they don’t need.
If you remember the Tesco Accounting scandal (2015) this was caused (apparently) because the individual store powers didn't account for warehousing as they thought online should foot the bill. (That's perhaps paraphrasing and from memory) because the online purchases made up a very significant portion of the warehouse.
According to
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252499325/Tesco-reports-online-sales-surge-advances-digital-platform
Online sales participation doubled to 15% for the full year, reaching a peak of 18% during the fourth quarter of 2020, according to Tesco.
Google tells me Tesco have 4,074 stores in the UK (including franchises) so that's a single entity shifting as much as 800+ "average" stores.
I'm not arguing that the process and system they have is in any way efficient (we are to an extent in agreement).
Where we differ (perhaps) is I see it as a tag on process due to a reluctance or otherwise to commit to proper process engineering. I believe because they are only doing it to stop existing customers switching loyalty.
I haven't done online food orders in an age but what I remember and my mum's is that I do it a week in advance.. this should give them plenty of time to be stocking both pre-purchased and speculative (from data mining and ML) items from the warehouses and use an optimizer for the deliveries.
I happen to know (from a previous life) fuel companies are major customers for optimizer software such as CPLEX / iLOG but not to my knowledge supermarkets. That doesn't seem to have really changed...
thisisnotaspoon
Well most of the above ^^^
Stock control isn’t perfect. Wastage, theft, etc. Maybe the pink bog roll delivery got wet.
It's a lot of maybe's... I think it's also maybe more likely they simply don't care about fulfilling an order they took the money for because they already have the rest of the order and it didn't go to a competitor.
The big difference is the bearing companies (my example) also deal with procurement departments and they would quickly be hit with fines and struck off the procurement list if they didn't deliver.
Maybe it was in stock 3 days ago when the order was placed but had sold out by the time the pickers went out to collect it a few hours before the delivery slot.
But (taking your 3 days) they still have time to make sure its delivered from the warehouse in time for the order... presumably the one in-stock on the shelves was there to be sold so why wouldn't they order the replacement item from the warehouse at that time? [sticking with the loo roll they expect to need 35 on the shelves .. someone orders one and they have that ADDED to the delivery of "pink puppy roll"
Food is bulky and goes off. You can only order into the shop what you can sell before it goes off. Slightly underestimate that and you run out, slightly overestimate and you generate waste (which pushes prices up, you can’t just order 10% more bread or bananas just in case).
This is my point ... it wasn't speculative (an estimate) it was already sold and paid for as would have been the 8 bananas and loaf of bread on the order. So again it's add an extra 8 bananas and a loaf of Hovis (with a fudge factor from data mining for customers that would have bought in store but aren't because its bought online)
Because bearings are small and non-perishable. You can order huge quantities and have them on the shelf ready for customers.
Again we are back to is it in stock or not (or even expected in stock on)
If I look at this as a customer it's the same thing. It's the supermarkets problem to do the logistics just as it's mine to order the correct items for the recipe. (I'm not disagreeing I'm saying as a customer not my problem)
As a process engineer they don't seem to actually be trying to do that though.
As a customer I'll give my business to the bearing company/supermarket that actually has everything I want deliverable by the date I need. If its more than one I'll go cheapest for the exact same bearings or maybe make other decisions but the primary decision for me to use one company over another is if an entire order is in stock and deliverable.
Advertising something you don't actually have (or try very hard to make happen) to prevent someone buying from a competitor is misleading and dishonest and it just doesn't look to me that they are actually trying very hard at all and its more of an afterthought to avoid losing business.
So again it’s add an extra 8 bananas and a loaf of Hovis (with a fudge factor from data mining for customers that would have bought in store but aren’t because its bought online)
But surely you can appreciate how impossible that is. You can't predict exactly how many of an item will sell on any given day.
You could order Bananas on Monday for a Thursday delivery, they could order n+1 bananas on Wednesday where n is their normal daily order, and then Blue Peter* makes Banana Bread Wednesday evening and they've sold out.
*does Blue Peter still exist? If not substitute in TikTock influencer.
As a customer I’ll give my business to the bearing company/supermarket that actually has everything
Unlike the bearing supplier, they can't though. They can't tell if the last kilo of bananas in stock has gone off until they get to the shelf, several days after you ordered.
and it just doesn’t look to me that they are actually trying very hard at all and its more of an afterthought to avoid losing business.
How much would you be willing to pay for this guaranteed system?
Its doable but not under the current model where they use existing stores as the base. You would need completely separated systems for it to work in a guaranteed way.
Cougar
Wasn’t a well-known bike components retailer notorious for doing exactly that?
They still do as far as I know...
I only use them for replacement spares (like chains and pads) I want to keep in the toolbox/shed/van and then use the use google to find them and wait for the £5 off code.
I just checked and they seem to be saying "Hurry! Get This Deal While Stocks Last" inferring its in stock whereas I don't believe it is or isn't (schrodinger items)
It's the same as another company having "we are moving warehouse and have all these wheels taking up space to sell" then after you order telling you "we have to build your wheel"
But surely you can appreciate how impossible that is. You can’t predict exactly how many of an item will sell on any given day.
You could order Bananas on Monday for a Thursday delivery, they could order n+1 bananas on Wednesday where n is their normal daily order, and then Blue Peter* makes Banana Bread Wednesday evening and they’ve sold out.
*does Blue Peter still exist? If not substitute in TikTock influencer.
You don't need to .. its the same as the bike example. Oh we left it in the shop and someone bought it after you paid for it.
I'm really saying if someone has already paid for an item don't sell it to someone else or deliver the paid for items in addition to the ones on the shelf and keep them aside.
I think it’s also maybe more likely they simply don’t care about fulfilling an order they took the money for because they already have the rest of the order and it didn’t go to a competitor.
We get same/next-day Morrisons deliveries through Amazon - yesterday was, I think, the first time they EVER got anything wrong (white nectarines instead of yellow, and no spinach and rocket salad, which we ordered as no lettuce was available online - oh, the horror of modern life), super-easy no-quibble refund for missing or incorrect items.
I’m really saying if someone has already paid for an item don’t sell it to someone else or deliver the paid for items in addition to the ones on the shelf and keep them aside.
Not really workable for fresh goods for the reasons outlined above.
The supermarkets do not always receive the quantity they order from suppliers. Sometimes this is due to unforeseen circumstances or often become the supermarket has ordered more than the supplier is capable of producing.
For short shelf life products the supermarkets will not know of this failure to supply until a day or two before the product is due to reach store.
How much would you be willing to pay for this guaranteed system?
Its doable but not under the current model where they use existing stores as the base. You would need completely separated systems for it to work in a guaranteed way.
Me personally ?
It costs me a few quid to drive to and from the superstore where most stuff I want is in stock .. and if it isn't I know immediately and can replan etc. so assuming I wasn't getting the dregs and stuff they put at the front because it was about to expire at least that.
I think the thing is though taking the figures above the current model isn't scale-able and hence not sustainable with continued growth.
Online grocery shopping remains popular with consumers, with its share of sales rising to 13.1%, up from 11.3% in December 2021, the highest since July 2021. This is against a backdrop of a small slide in overall UK supermarket sales over the same period.
There's a PoV from McKinley here....
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/retail/our-insights/the-next-s-curve-of-growth-online-grocery-to-2030
How much you believe it in detail is debateable but overall the trend is clearly that online sales are catching in store... so a change in model is going to be needed anyway. It's not a given it would be more expensive either.
Implications for traditional retailers and their physical network
Incumbent retailers that are not currently playing in online might be at risk of losing market share, especially in urban areas. For example, in the aggressive market forecast for the United Kingdom, online scheduled grocery would be the largest channel in the country by 2030, overtaking supermarkets. Executives should consider several actions.
I’m really saying if someone has already paid for an item don’t sell it to someone else or deliver the paid for items in addition to the ones on the shelf and keep them aside.
Yes, but as I said, that's not how supermarkets are built, there isn't a big Argos style warehouse at the back full of stock. There's an area just big enough to unload a lorry load of cages into.
And the "item" may not even exist until a few hours before it's picked (e.g. Bananas again, ripened just in time to go out onto the shelves). So even if you did build the extra facilities and employ the extra staff to find those items in the cages* before they went out, you can't guarantee that the lorry with Warburton's didn't break down so you're getting Hovis instead.
*which in itself would be difficult, because you could be trying to find a bar of Dairy Milk, which is packaged inside a box of 40, in a cage underneath 100kg of biscuits and confectionary, and it's only there if the box on the shelf is running low so it might not even be there to intercept and you'd have to go out onto the shop floor and hope they weren't all in peoples trollies anyway.
It was really noticeable that the majority of rude customers that I experienced were late-middle aged women. I’m aware thats become a stereotype recently, but it was very obvious at the time.The exception was the Saturday before Christmas. Obviously it was always utter chaos, but more so because ****less husbands would be sent out with a list – terrified that Christmas would be ruined and they’d be in the doghouse because we’d run our of sprouts/chipolatas etc. We had some sensational meltdowns.
Identical stories to @batfink ! A Sainsbury's again and I recognise every one of those examples. I saw customers get into actual fistfights over the last scraps of turkey in the freezer aisles at 4pm on Christmas Eve.
And yes, many rude middle-aged women. Funniest one was a woman who literally grabbed me as I was walking through the fruit and veg section to get to my own shelfstacking area and saying
"young man - do these tomatoes have any genetics in them?"
What she obviously meant was "are these tomatoes genetically engineered?" but that certainly wasn't what she asked. Where to begin...?!
I'm just curious who the bike retailer is.
thisisnotaspoon
Yes, but as I said, that’s not how supermarkets are built, there isn’t a big Argos style warehouse at the back full of stock. There’s an area just big enough to unload a lorry load of cages into.
Yep but if you believe the data and predictions ^^^^ they either adapt or die.
For my money Tesco would be killing it if they hadn't had the 2015 fiasco with accounting and the others could just close down now. Waitrose chucked Ocado and the others tried jumping in without doing a digital transformation and are doomed to fail unless they take the respite to adapt.
Just back from a walk to the local supermarket. Just as well I went in person rather than ordering online as some of the vegetables on my list were in an awful state, no doubt due to the unusually hot weather we've been having. I just bought alternatives.
What would people suggest the pickers for online orders do when faced with poor quality goods?
I don't shop online for fresh goods but sometimes use the drive service, in doing so I know that if they've only got soggy tomatoes I'll get soggy tomatoes.
I had a rant a the check out today because they've changed from weighing at the checkout to weighing yourself at the veg stand. This meant putting everything back in the basket, walking back to the veg, weighing and then requeueing. The rant went something like. "Sir this is nothing personal and you're doing your job perfectly, this is aimed at God up there, the fools who designed this supermarket and this crazy world we live in. If stuff needs to be weighed then stick a load of signs up, not just one 2.5m up in the air, because it really pisses people off and they'll go to Aldi or Lidl where they still weigh stuff at the check out"
The checkout guy and the people in the queue seemed amused.
Yep but if you believe the data and predictions ^^^^ they either adapt or die.
Yet, as you say, online supermarket sales are growing
Pondo
Yet, as you say, online supermarket sales are growing
Exactly my point along with Tesco (despite being crippled still to some extent in their IT processes) growing faster online than the others.
Whoever gets this right first is going to sweep the floor when people realise they can get fresh produce not just the left overs people didn't buy in store. I'm amazed how people think it's even acceptable to get missing items etc. and excuse gross incompetence at an executive level as "but the pickers/drivers. maybe they ran out or someone bought the item already paid for off the shelf.." but once people realise it doesn't need to be a shit 3rd rate service they aren't going to keep brand loyalty for everyday items.
If you believe McKinsey by 2030 it will be over 50% (perhaps that's optimistic but who knows 35% by 2030??) and it will be like Wiggle/CRC vs Tredz (Halfords) or Evans?
I had a rant a the check out today because they’ve changed from weighing at the checkout to weighing yourself at the veg stand.
Total side-track but I am sure I remember this being the norm in France in the late 80s or early 90s?
It depends on the supermarket, even within the same brand. The ones I use most; Proxi, Aldi, Lidl, Petit Casino are weigh at check out. Super U are the annoying ones with no idication just a scale with a sign up in the air. Leclerc have numbers on the goods in one supermarket to type in (it makes it more obvious) and weighing at the caisse at the other I go to... .
on the basis it's not owned until it's paid for, and booked out of stock, is it fair game for online pickers to plunder shopper's trolleys for items if needed, to satisfy the online delivery customers who have paid already?
Exactly my point along with Tesco (despite being crippled still to some extent in their IT processes) growing faster online than the others.
Great - so this "online shopping is a disaster" nonsense is just... Nonsense.
have you ever actually had an online shopping order? this is not my experience, at all! Why would pickers deliberately select poor items - they would just be rejected which would then reflect badly on them - just doesn't make any sense?Whoever gets this right first is going to sweep the floor when people realise they can get fresh produce not just the left overs people didn’t buy in store. I’m amazed how people think it’s even acceptable to get missing items etc. and excuse gross incompetence
Here's another question. Self scan - not the till points, the hand held things.
According to my checkout operator daughter the till randomly requests a check every now and then. Most of the time she'll have to scan a few items only and if they're all on the self scan then it's all good. If not, then a full rescan is ordered. Sometimes it'll just request a full rescan for S&G anyway.
She says that a surprising number of even the random 10 or so items checks turns up a missing item. Which of course is always a surprise to the shopper, who then gets pissy about the time involved....'I do self scan to save time, not waste it!'
The incidence of missing items on rescans acc to her is increasing, and is to her non-scientifically gathered data, more frequent than the frequency of scan requests per shop.
It's not stats and IANAS but seems like the odds are way stacked in favour of the shoplifter and they know it, given the incidence of getting found out. Most of the time you won't get rescanned anyway, but if you are most of the time it'll only be a random scan which might miss what you nicked. And if it doesn't and you get a full rescan, you only pay for what you are taking away anyway, there's no penalty.
I wonder how much indignant Karen's are thieving, which in the end we all pay for?
Great – so this “online shopping is a disaster” nonsense is just… Nonsense.
If its a disaster for you will depend if your bonus, dividend, salary or pension have invested in the losers.
Is it a "disaster" that Tandy, Radio Shack or Blockbuster no longer exist? I guess only to those lost their jobs and pensions due to the executive incompetence?
I'm sure there was another reason why Blockbuster had to close 🤔 Some emerging technology? Can't remember.Is it a “disaster” that Tandy, Radio Shack or Blockbuster no longer exist? I guess only to those lost their jobs and pensions due to the executive incompetence?
If its a disaster for you will depend if your bonus, dividend, salary or pension have invested in the losers.
Hang on a minute - I thought you labelled it a disaster because sometimes not everything turns up (in a not disimilar way to sometimes not everything I want is in the shop), what's this other crap got to do with it?
have you ever actually had an online shopping order? this is not my experience, at all!
Not since lockdown when I got deregistered from Sainsbury's due to GDPR or something, never bothered reregistering as they wanted a new eMail as the main one was already in use though they had no records of me ... ???? or shopping in a Sainsbury's superstore since. I do use the local but that's just because its a convenient ride away..
My mum does at least weekly.. I've never seen her get what she ordered without out of date or going out of date items.. hence she often ends up doing a second one.
Why would pickers deliberately select poor items – they would just be rejected which would then reflect badly on them – just doesn’t make any sense?
As a minimum because the stackers put/move the out of date and stuff about to go out of date at the front...
Why would they select it? Because then the supermarket can get rid of it without having to discount. If its sent back they can just send it to someone else or put it back on the shelves for someone with poor eyesight until someone doesn't notice.
As per thread title you presumably can't complain without being banned so what's the comeback?
I mean, how can a barcoded out of date item even be still on the shelves without gross incompetence?
We're in fantasy-land now - I'm out of here.
Hang on a minute – I thought you labelled it a disaster because sometimes not everything turns up (in a not disimilar way to sometimes not everything I want is in the shop), what’s this other crap got to do with it?
Did I say disaster? Well it is if t means my mother can't eat because of the gross incompetence of supermarket executives.
I'm pretty sure those losing their jobs will see it as a disaster ...
I’m sure there was another reason why Blockbuster had to close 🤔 Some emerging technology? Can’t remember.
Would that be the emerging technology they decided not to buy when offered Netflix or otherwise invest in? (and that was pre-streaming) They decided people didn't want posted films and would prefer to drive somewhere, pay parking and find what they wanted was already out.
Looking back it seems so obvious .. someone came up with a far superior service that they refused to acknowledge but they refused the rather small at the time offer to buy in.
The same will happen to supermarkets that refuse to change their delivery models to use what is already established technology.
do you know what, I'm prepared to bet this bottle of lemon washing up liquid (substituted for lemon juice - the bastards, ruined my pancake day completely) that we don't see supermarkets failing over the failure to adopt this fantasy model.
For the vast majority of people it works just fine. Your Mum is an outlier, just as mine is. She realises it and has to keep some frozen stuff as back up to compensate for the odd time when it creates an issue.
I’m amazed how people think it’s even acceptable to get missing items etc.
Shit happens™
This is the JIT model, isn't it. As a retailer you either sell what you know you have in stock, or you do it speculatively trusting that your suppliers will fulfil orders. What point is there in looking on the shelves for a box of strawberries which have been ordered for delivery a week Thursday? And that's all a bit ducked now, thanks to brexit your strawberries are still in Kent.
Here’s another question. Self scan – not the till points, the hand held things.
I use these things almost exclusively when in-store. Whilst I don't doubt that some people take the piss, it's really easy to screw up. Sometimes things don't scan, sometimes you're distracted. They're better now at locking out until you acknowledge an error message, at least.
I'm fairly sure as well that there will be an algorithm. If you fail a random check, the frequency of 'random' checks will increase.
In the interest of balance, I should mention I got an unsolicited multipack of raisin snack boxes in this weeks online shop today 😀
theotherjonv
do you know what, I’m prepared to bet this bottle of lemon washing up liquid (substituted for lemon juice – the bastards, ruined my pancake day completely) that we don’t see supermarkets failing over the failure to adopt this fantasy model.
For the vast majority of people it works just fine. Your Mum is an outlier, just as mine is. She realises it and has to keep some frozen stuff as back up to compensate for the odd time when it creates an issue.
Cougar
Shit happens™
This is the JIT model, isn’t it. As a retailer you either sell what you know you have in stock, or you do it speculatively trusting that your suppliers will fulfil orders. What point is there in looking on the shelves for a box of strawberries which have been ordered for delivery a week Thursday? And that’s all a bit ducked now, thanks to brexit your strawberries are still in Kent.
The thing is blockbusters worked "perfectly fine" etc. or "well enough" etc.
People put up with not having what they wanted in because it was a new alternative.
Those of us remember it probably remember the idea of going and seeing of they had anything you wanted to actually watch.. and of course there were highstreets back then as well.
It's not "shit happens" though, it's "shit is allowed to happen because we can't be arsed".. just like any LBS might have a shit happens and fit the forks backwards ... Shit happens is "flash floods" .. a motorway collision etc. ships getting stuck in the Suez canal ???
A bit of an illustration from extreme to less .. someone driving an articulated lorry ploughs through a line of cars whilst texting... (I think we can agree it's not "shit happens" or "accidental") .. at the other end I'm wandering round the supermarket and someone rams me with a trolley whist texting ... It's not an accident or shit happens though is it?
The made a conscious decision to continue pushing the trolley about whilst texting...
This is where I see the supermarkets .. they made a conscious decision to maintain their delivery, distribution and logistics for online shopping rather than rethink how they can benefit they did it because they don't want to lose market share to some other supermarket. So long as they deliver the same sort of shittyness its "just good enough".
This is the JIT model, isn’t it.
Nope ..and that is really my point (it could be but they didn't embrace it or digital transformation)
(First google but it's pretty authoritative so.. https://www.ifm.eng.cam.ac.uk/research/dstools/jit-just-in-time-manufacturing/ )
`Just-in-time' is a management philosophy and not a technique.
It originally referred to the production of goods to meet customer demand exactly, in time, quality and quantity, whether the `customer' is the final purchaser of the product or another process further along the production line.
If I was to give it a name then it's "just good enough", its certainly not "exactly, in time, quality and quantity". It's "just good enough to stop people switching"
It has now come to mean producing with minimum waste. "Waste" is taken in its most general sense and includes time and resources as well as materials. Elements of JIT include:
Putting stuff onto shelves to be removed to expire etc. etc. is all just poorly reusing their logistics model.
They have a "pre-order" - practically guaranteed not speculation as they do with "click and collect" type stuff. The customer actually already paid... so its as close to guaranteed as possible. (Look back at the definitions of JIT)
as a minor point "Whilst I don’t doubt that some people take the piss, it’s really easy to screw up." .. and they avoid this as well.
Supermarkets exist in a protective bubble... they essentially have the size to set the market price so they can put small stores out of business or make up such a small part of the market it isn't worth fighting for.
It's not like someone can just start "Cougar's" and have the footprint and reach. Take Booths they are still more expensive than Sainsbury's/Tesco for the same items most of the time (5p for a can of beans)
That said they could also do deliveries due to their restricted area. I think basically everything is centralised around J31a ...
The other part of my point is we shouldn't feel we can't complain .. its not the drivers fault it's the executives that embraced the "Just good enough model and I still think when a major supermarket does it right they will wipe up.
Take a look at market share and then say Tesco got 80% of the online market whilst in store shrinks to 50% or less...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/280208/grocery-market-share-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
mattyfez
In the interest of balance, I should mention I got an unsolicited multipack of raisin snack boxes in this weeks online shop today
I got haribo's but that's not why I ordered from Wiggle/CRC ... it's because I knew delivery would be as ordered.
If I was to give it a name then it’s “just good enough”, its certainly not “exactly, in time, quality and quantity”. It’s “just good enough to stop people switching”
But this is how most sectors are. You can have 'good enough' or you can pay extra and have 'very good' or even 'perfect'. And the vast majority of people choose 'good enough', and that's why Costa Coffee and McDonalds and Primark are so enormously successful and dominate the high streets.
If I was to give it a name then it’s “just good enough”, its certainly not “exactly, in time, quality and quantity”. It’s “just good enough to stop people switching”
But no-one is going to change that because every other model costs far more in actual ££, time, resources and/or space to do.
Boeing don't have 200 massive Rolls-Royce engines sat out the back waiting for them to build some planes cos they don't have space for them, the engines would rust or seize, they might not use them all etc...
Once they have an order book for the next tranche, they'll order a run of engines from RR who will use the same JIT delivery method to order in all the parts from their own suppliers and so on. That way no-one has spent ££ on vast quantities of engine bits that might never be needed and will sit there filling valuable warehouse space.
Same across the industries - car and bicycle manufacturers, food...
It's why, if you order a niche artisan product that is made by hand it costs a fortune cos the supplier of said product has to order in all the raw materials at whatever they might cost at that moment (rather than hedging and buying a long way in advance), fire up all the facilities to build it and then ship one product. It's incredibly inefficient, even if you do get a "perfect" product out the other end.
Way to ruin a stories of customers being dicks thread stw...
I used to run supply chain forecasting for a chemical co. I know how it works, from customer forecasting through stock holding and cost /value of inventory and WoH, to plant scheduling and manufacturing and RM ordering and stock holding.
The analyses we ran on the amount to hold in at each step enabled us to set levels to hold enough to make sure we could fill all forecasted orders and then a safety net. Or we could set it where we could fill 100%, 95, 90, you set it ..... and accept that there would be customers who we'd let down, by short or delayed deliveries. As long as you didn't always short the same customer every time and shared it round by an allocation process, each customer might get a delayed delivery once every couple of years, which they'd complain about at the time but overall say our service was good.
The COST of holding enough to cover the peak demands and some was substantially more than the cost of holding say 95%. The benefit was virtually non-existent. We did it product by product from time to time as well - some we didn't want to be short of (eg: beer filter aid in summer - if we couldn't fill the order they'd have to go elsewhere, you can't just leave it in the brew vessel until next week for the delayed order)
So - parallels to the supermarket question. As well as cash tied up in stock, they also have the issue of short shelflife and no chance to actually run FIFO inventory beyond putting the nearest use by dates at the front of the shelf. I'm sure they've modelled increasing stock against benefit and realise that being short and substituting or chucking in a £5 voucher if the customer really rants is way more efficient. They will also have probably modelled store cupboard type inventory against fresh - and expect their customers to not be waiting before the last knockings of the tommy k before reordering, so if it doesn't arrive this week, no real harm. Worst case they'll get a bottle from the corner shop, if they don't accept the own brand i.o Heinz first.
I realise our Mums are outliers to this but the model is there for the average shopper, not the 0.5 or 1%
As for the supermarket that sorts this out will put the others out of business. Sorry, just won't happen. Not least, if one does it and the additional cost doesn't cripple them (remember, most supermarkets are running on 1-3% net margins) then everyone else will do the same, they won't 'miss the boat' like your very true Blockbuster example which was revolution, not evolution.
And everyone will rebalance at about where they were, fighting for a fractional market share gain or loss based on comparing till receipts, and BOGOF's and all the other things they do to win share. Except they'll all now be burning more cash and margin on holding 'excess' stock that 99% of their customers don't really care about. And they'll all increase their prices to compensate.
In fact I'd counterbet that the cost of a supermarket going to the service everyone OTIF all the time model would mean having to increase prices, that would then LOSE market share against the others that didn't. They might get 100% share of the 1% that need that service level though.
doris5000
But this is how most sectors are. You can have ‘good enough’ or you can pay extra and have ‘very good’ or even ‘perfect’. And the vast majority of people choose ‘good enough’, and that’s why Costa Coffee and McDonalds and Primark are so enormously successful and dominate the high streets.
Fair point though how much this is "people" vs "Brits" ??
Domino's didn't release their reasons for pulling out of Italy (last week?) for example.. but cultural differences aside I find Brits are just happy to "eat shit" when it's convenient (in both the wider and more literal sense.
Almost like we're stuck between America and Europe but got the worst off the venn diagram?
Chucking cultural differences back in and taking the "nation of shopkeepers" I don't find it amazing that Italians would just reject Domino's...
When I lived in France anyone I asked about banks more or less said the same thing ... paraphrased "they are all equally crap so just choose whatever is nearest"
crazy-legs
But no-one is going to change that because every other model costs far more in actual ££, time, resources and/or space to do.
I'm struggling to see this because the current process is so inefficient.
Boeing don’t have 200 massive Rolls-Royce engines sat out the back waiting for them to build some planes cos they don’t have space for them, the engines would rust or seize, they might not use them all etc…
Once they have an order book for the next tranche, they’ll order a run of engines from RR who will use the same JIT delivery method to order in all the parts from their own suppliers and so on. That way no-one has spent ££ on vast quantities of engine bits that might never be needed and will sit there filling valuable warehouse space.
Except not supermarkets ... which is the point.
"Traditional" supermarkets (if that isn't an oxymoron) are estimating or otherwise modelling demand and ordering in advance because they put stuff on shelves for people to put in trolleys to be scanned. Anything pre-ordered and paid for is as close to an actual sale as makes little difference.
If you believe multiple predictions (such as the one I linked) then something like 50% of food will be delivered by 2030.
Delivering to supermarkets, putting it on the shelves to be picked if it's still there doesn't sound anything close to efficient nor does it look like it will scale.
Way to ruin a stories of customers being dicks thread stw…
So instead of calling out people who after they paid for something didn't get it I'm calling out the executives of supermarkets who think we should STFU and just put up with their poor service?
I’m calling out the executives of supermarkets who think we should STFU and just put up with their poor service?
I think a reading of this thread suggests that on the whole we are satisfied with the service in general, we don't want to pay any more for it, and consequently we're happy to 'STFU'
Remember too, the CEO's of the supermarkets have a different set of customers - namely investors. That's who they have to keep happy. Rightly or wrongly.