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So Roger Waters is at it again and quite honestly its difficult not to totally give up on the guy - I mean really he has transcended ****dom and become downright nasty.
EXCEPT what was going on with The Wall - the whole point was surely it was a satirical play against fascism....and for anyone who is into guitar music you just can't ignore Floyd. I'm not the biggest Pink Floyd fan but some of the tunes have had such an influence on me - not lyrically (obviously lyrics were not strong with the floyd) but always there throughout my life.
But I really can I listen to them anymore with the same enthusiasm?
Its the same with The Smiths - literally the music that brought me to a lifelong love of music and then I find out Marr is a selfish git and Morrisey is another fascist
Anyone else of a certain age finding it hard to enjoy the music they grew up with?
I've never been a big fan of either of the bands you mention but totally understand the issue. Is it possible to separate the artist from their art?
I loved the first few series of the Netflix House of Cards series, but is it possible to still enjoy it knowing the history of Kevin Spacey?
I don't think either The Smiths or Pink Floyd can argue that they made their music in a different era when sensibilities were different (like Roald Dahl) - I think they (Morrissey and Waters) are just tw*ts.
….and for anyone who is into guitar music you just can’t ignore Floyd.
Sure you can.
It's not much of a problem for me, I have little knowledge and no interest in what they get up to outside of their music.
Pantera
On reflection they were always a bit dodgy, but there's only 2 of left and 50% of them are a massive racist
Interesting thing on R4 I think about this recently.
Doesn't have to be black or white*
(*pun intended).
Loads. The aforementioned Waters and Morrissey. Also Van Morrison, Clapton and (don't judge me) Ted Nugent.
Some good musicians are unfortunately bellends. Fact.
I like to consider that there's an alternate universe in which Morrissey joined the 27 Club in 1987 after the Smiths' last album. We could instead be imagining what he'd got up to if only he hadn't died so tragically young.
Ian Brown’s recent anti vax conspiracy ballcocks has totally ruined his stuff for me. What an absolute tool. I love his music: Music Of the Spheres is superb (as is the remix album that accompanied it) and at one time was my Andy-needs-cheering-up backing soundtrack. But this just ruined it, along with, in some ways, my love of the Stone Roses.
Gary Glitter's music would be ripe for re-appraisal...
Still listen to both bands lots. Try to avoid anything Roger or Steven have to say these days.
It's not exactly the same thing, but the guy from Right Said Fred is an antivax Putin apologist, which is odd considering the state-sponsored homophobia in Russia (and Chechnya particularly).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gay_purges_in_Chechnya
Imagine if you liked Lostprophets.
I never but, you know...
This is quite similar to the Scott Adams thread.
I must say that when I look at my records and cry bitter metaphorical tears over Pink Floyd, The Roses, Morrissey, Van the man and all the other musical heroes of my past who have chosen poorly…..the gap in my collection where Right Said Fred might have been is not causing me any angst…
I spent my college and Uni years going to gigs that featured a local band called Lost Prophets, they went on to become rather good. A few of my friends knew the band members pretty well so when the news about Ian Watkins came out it was a shock and has tainted many a memory of nights out, parties and even the odd festival. I used to have a full set of their albums all signed too, those went in the bin. Partly as I didn't want anything to do with them but also as there was a sick market for them immediately afterwards for weirdos who collect stuff like Nazi memorabilia etc.
I liked Lost Prophets, totally a band of my youth. Can't bring myself to listen to their music now though.
I just recently found out Afrika Bambaataa is a wrong'un. Didn't see that coming.
Gary Glitter’s music would be ripe for re-appraisal…
Imagine if you liked Lostprophets
In the main I listen to music without much care about the opinions of the artist but here are a couple of examples where even if I loved the music I wouldn’t play theirs or a cover if it put even a fraction of a penny in their pocket
I wouldn’t play theirs or a cover if it put even a fraction of a penny in their pocket
Lostprophets are more than just Ian Watkins, feel a bit sorry for the rest of the band tbh.
I just recently found out Afrika Bambaataa is a wrong’un. Didn’t see that coming.
Well, that's pretty awful. One cool thing I did glean from reading his Wikipedia bio: Cowboy from the Village People was cool and invented the term "hiphop"!
We’ve got this far and nobody’s mentioned Michael Jackson?!
Imagine if you liked Lostprophets.
I did/do.
I liked Lost Prophets, totally a band of my youth.
Absolutely.
Can’t bring myself to listen to their music now though.
Took me a long time, but I do still listen occasionally.
I always thought Lost Prophets were like a corny metal boyband. They were like an own brand Linkin Park.
Came to the conclusion Roger Waters was a grade A **** years ago.
Isn't that why he left Pink Floyd in the first place?
We’ve got this far and nobody’s mentioned Michael Jackson?!
Tupac? David Bowie? Bob Marley? John Peel? Kanye (at least not for sexual exploitation reasons, for once).
Nick Cave shared some thoughts on this very recently.
@winston thankfully the following people just seem to become more amazing:
Shaun Ryder: naughty lad come good. Makes me smile whenever I hear him speak.
Eddie Vedder: the Richard Feynman of Grunge.
Tim Burgess: constantly outraged on Twitter. In a good / nice middle class way. No longer has crack blown up his star fangled….
Moby: yes a bit mad, but throughly decent with it.
Dave Grohl: is Dave Grohl. No more, no less. WYSIWYG
There are many more.
It’s not all bad.
You probably want to Google 'Moby and Natalie Portman'. All a bit suspect.
Because there's no such thing as rock stars
There's just people who play music
And some of them are just like us
And some of them are dicks
Francis Turner has a lyric for most things. I hope that he doesn't have any skeletons waiting to spoil things.
Only problem I have is Bono. His latter utter toolery put me right off one of my fave bands.
I understand the OP’s point. Personally I’m both a Floyd and Smiths fan and still listen to both. Liking the music doesn’t mean I align to their views and opinions, but it does taint the perspective looking back.
But …. Floyd having weak lyrics - That is tosh.
Watkins and Glitter, sadly their actions do prevent me from listening.
But I really can I listen to them anymore with the same enthusiasm?
Seeing as Pink Floyd are old hasbeens, you thought about moving on and listening to new stuff.. new bands?
Of the people mentioned there's none of them I like enough to care and even if I did, well, it's nothing like as bad as your best friend of nearly 30 years becoming an anti vaxer.
@desperatebicycle - that’s a great idea! Could you give me some pointers? Perhaps you could record me some cassettes.. make me a mix tape?
I don't generally mind if the bands I like are arseholes, I'd prefer they're not but I'm listening to the music not to their opinions. But there's definitely a line I don't want to cross and it's probably pretty complicated where it is. Lostprophets are an easy one (and for all anyone might criticise, they were an absolutely magnificent live band). The drummer that left to join Nine Inch Nails should give TED talks on perfect timing though...
But, Pantera... Phil is an absolute ****. But I'd still totally go and see 'em live. I might feel a bit bad about it... So yeah, wobbly line.
Seeing as Pink Floyd are old hasbeens, you thought about moving on and listening to new stuff.. new bands?
Too right. Folk bash on about that Mozart bloke, and some deaf git named after that massive dog in that film. I'm all like "get with the times, gramps"
Could you give me some pointers? Perhaps you could record me some cassettes.. make me a mix tape?
Do your own research! You must have access to that new-fangled thing called "The Internet". Have a look/listen on there.
What I don't get is getting all precious about any one band or artist... I've just had a quick look on my NAS and my music collection has over 3000 different bands and artists on it. So, if there's one I decide not to like anymore, it's no big deal to listen to something else... and that's without going and finding the millions I haven't yet heard!
Folk bash on about that Mozart bloke, and some deaf git named after that massive dog in that film. I’m all like “get with the times, gramps”
Not a clue why you've quoted me and said that. No idea what it means.
But how many of those 3000 bands actually mean anything to you? Which give a shiver down your spine when you hear the first bars of the intro? Do you remember the queue outside the venue and the absolute wall of heat from the mosh pit or the crystal clear strings of an acoustic guitar to a silent expectant audience?
3000 or 30000 doesn’t mean a thing if you don’t care.
What, so you reckon I'm so obsessed with music that I collect everything I love onto my own system, I sit here literally surrounded by vinyl and over there a few 100s CDs... but none of it means anything to me? Yeah, brilliant. Of course that's how it is. If only I loved something enough to still care what the pensioners who made it 50-60 years ago it say or do.
Not a clue why you’ve quoted me and said that. No idea what it means.
I think he is saying Mozart and Beethoven are 'old hasbeens' too, by your definition so equally worthless?
Discovering new music is great and there's never been a better or easier time to do it, but older classics don't lose their intrinsic value because of that.
On a related note, one of our Uni summer balls had a Gary Glitter Tribute act on the line up. Aside from the obvious regarding GG's victims, I feel sorry for the tribute act.
Yes - I bet those tribute acts are really feeling the lost profits...
Only problem I have is Bono. His latter utter toolery put me right off one of my fave bands.
I genuinely don't understand the venom for Bono. What is it that he has said that's so awful? Some very tepid and broad statements about the environment and genocide? The hate seems to be coming from Jeremy Clarkson types that are frothing to paint him (Bono) as some kind of woke warrior.
As for the music: some of the 1990s stuff is good. The rest is enjoyable pub rock (I have seen them live twice).
But I really can I listen to them anymore with the same enthusiasm?
It’s not difficult, just stop listening when you get to ‘The Wall’, it’s what I did. I bought the album when it was released, listened to it once, and never bothered after that. All too obviously Waters personal obsession, and of no consequence whatsoever to me.
Artists who turn out to be assholes after they’ve been producing work for an extended period of time I can live with, but people who are clearly dicks from the get go mean I can safely ignore them forever.
Someone has apparently written a book about such people who are problematic in one way or another, and Joni Mitchell’s name was listed, which caused raised eyebrows on my part, because I know of nothing that might make appreciating her music problematic. Unless the writer is getting sniffy about Joni getting pregnant accidentally and the father having nothing to do with her, so she chose to have the child adopted, because she couldn’t look after her alone. I find nothing wrong with that.
What I don’t get is getting all precious about any one band or artist… I’ve just had a quick look on my NAS and my music collection has over 3000 different bands and artists on it.
Is that all?
here for the Lost Prophets chat, however the court sentencing is online, maybe don't read it if you still want to play the songs eh
I've just come in from the Warrington Neighbourhood Weekender festival, having watched my all time favourite band, Pulp live for the first time. Just an aweome show. I'm going to be really upset if Jarvis turns out to be anything but a magnificent bastard for the rest of my life.
Power corrupts. It's a natural human failing to turn into an utter **** if you are successful. Some manage to avoid this fate, but it does seem to be the less likely outcome.
I speculate that it might be partly due to the inbuilt bias that people attribute their success to their genius and hard work, rather than luck and privilege. So they think that being successful makes them better people than the rest.
Being surrounded by sycophants all your life (once the money starts rolling in) can't help either. It must be genuinely difficult to maintain your sense of equilibrium and keep in touch with reality when people won't dare to take you down a peg or two no matter how much of a ****tish thing you say or do.
John Lennon was allegedly an emotional and physical abuser and he played in the biggest band of all.
I love guitar music/rock yet have never liked The Smiths or Pink Floyd. So it’s completely possible to love guitar music and not be remotely interested in the aforementioned bands. Both are just really boring to my ears. Johnny Marr was great when he joined Modest Mouse for a spell.
Josh Homme seems like a massive **** but I still like QOTSA.
@tthew was also there, and a very good show. He’s a magnificent performer.
Watched Paul Heaton last night as well, again fabulous, not sure who the young lady filling in Jacquie was, but she also did a great job.
Paul put money behind the local bars. Top man.
Francis Turner has a lyric for most things. I hope that he doesn’t have any skeletons waiting to spoil things.
+1. He may be a middle class, Eton educated (admittedly on a scholarship) white boy, but he seems honest, decent and righteously angry. Helps he also has an ear for a melody and writes pretty good lyrics.
Plus, I think he's aired most of his skeletons himself already.
Could you give me some pointers? Perhaps you could record me some cassettes.. make me a mix tape?
I may know a guy...
Roger Waters has been an insufferable **** for decades now, I stopped paying any attention to him when the band split up.
The Wall was never in the same league as Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here. After those albums, I guess Waters just went off the rails and The Wall was self-indulgent nonsense, same with The Final Cut.
One of the things that is now becoming really obvious, following Waters' spouting pro-Putin propaganda is that he lacks the commonsense needed to distinguish between real fascists and people that he just doesn't like. His father was killed in the Battle of Anzio, i.e. by Germans. The song When the Tigers Broke Free was about that battle, and ends with:
And that's how the High Command
Took my daddy from me
Yes, Allied commanders made a lot of mistakes in the war and a lot of Allied soldiers died as a result, I once heard the Allied war effort described as, "a series of disasters, culminating in victory". Unfortunately, that's how wars go. However, that doesn't mean that the war wasn't worth fighting or that Germany wasn't responsible for the deaths of all the millions of victims. Ultimately, Hitler was to blame for the death of Waters' father.
If it was only that, you could write it off as a guy who lost his father and is upset about it, which is quite understandable. However, siding with Putin over Ukraine just shows that he is a deluded fool who has lost his moral bearings.
Nick Cave didn’t want to blow the cover of his STW handle by posting on this thread, so The Guardian wrote on article for him.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/may/28/nick-cave-speaks-out-against-boycotting-songs-because-of-creators-actions
But how many of those 3000 bands actually mean anything to you? Which give a shiver down your spine when you hear the first bars of the intro? Do you remember the queue outside the venue and the absolute wall of heat from the mosh pit or the crystal clear strings of an acoustic guitar to a silent expectant audience?
This certainly resonates, but I get a similar feeling when the roadie shines the torch to the sound desk, the PA sound drops out and a new band that you haven't seen before comes onto the stage, and you wonder what you're going to get.
Sometimes it isn't delivered - frequently even. But when it does.....
It suprises me that Gary Glitter songs are still played as stadium anthems, i would have thought that teams and corporations would think a little bit more about brand association.
John Lennon was allegedly an emotional and physical abuser and he played in the biggest band of all.
Pretty sure he wasn't, mate - there were only two guys in Wham, George Michael and Andrew Ridgely.
I’m pretty sure I’m not your mate.
Yes – I bet those tribute acts are really feeling the lost profits…
Oh well played sir!
MSP
Full Member
It suprises me that Gary Glitter songs are still played as stadium anthems, i would have thought that teams and corporations would think a little bit more about brand association.
Bangin' tunes innit.
Well this thread had had the opposite effect on me, read the Nick Cave article and linked articles and am now listening to a couple of his albums that I really meant to get round to listening to before now but never had the time.
Funnily enough was thinking about this the other day. Watched something in Kanye's early albums and why they are highly regarded. Some of it was very clever in lyrics and sampling.
But his recent past puts a big shadow over that.
Mentioned a few times is Gary Glitter, used in stadiums and films (Joker being a recent one).
Did Brian Ferry once make himself look a fool saying the Nazi's dressed well? (Hugo Boss)
Where does it stop? Porsche was associated with Hitler, how about the VW beetle?
Where does it stop? Porsche was associated with Hitler, how about the VW beetle?
Leaving aside the fact that Porsche is dead and companies aren't people...Volkswagen has acknowledged its role in the Holocaust (from using slave labour to equipping the military), supports commemoration, and has paid a large amount of compensation to victims. When Roger Waters does the same...
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/holocaust-remembrance-day-volkswagen-commemorates-the-victims-of-nazism-15420
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-sep-12-mn-21938-story.html
weirdos who collect stuff like Nazi memorabilia etc
Like Lemmy. But he never seemed a racist, quite the opposite. Just had an odd interest in a certain German era aesthetic.
U2 are probably in my top 3 bands and I'll always listen to them. I think Bono is a bit of a tit but won't stop me listening.
My belief is that anybody at the top of their game in whatever field they are in, has put so much mental energy and effort into their chosen subject - that they are 'different' to the majority of other folk.
Doesn't matter whether it is a singer/songwriter, sportsperson or business person, the best are generally slightly unhinged in one way or another.
Unfortunately some are unhinged in ways that are disgusting and far away from what is considered acceptable behaviour.
I find listening to Ian Brown difficult after his statements regarding COVID19. I loved his work with The Stone Roses and so much of his solo work.
Despite loving Cream, his racist pro-Enoch Powell views were distatesful, but his recent outpourings have made made even listening to Cream pretty awful.
I refuse to go to any Bluetones live shows or buy any replacement music by them following the abusive, and indeed gaslighting behaviour.
Although I love U2 and agree with many of Bono’s publicly articulated beliefs, the loud proclamations can irritate. It doesn’t affect me buying their music, listening to them or seeing them live.
Adoration never ends well.
Leaving aside the fact that Porsche is dead and companies aren’t people…Volkswagen has acknowledged its role in the Holocaust (from using slave labour to equipping the military), supports commemoration, and has paid a large amount of compensation to victims.
Going way off topic, but not - some of the medical techniques that enable heart surgery nowadays were developed by german doctors who went on to be Nazi party members. There's certainly evidence they performed mass forced sterilizations, and some potentially furthered their research on unwilling volunteers from the concentration camps. Should we not use these techniques because of what their inventors turned out to be - or worse because the development wasn't ethical?
Morrissey turning out to be an utter roaster should've come as no surprise to anyone.
Roger Waters I find just weird. I don't understand the issues with Palestine well enough to have an opinion on the matter, but surely anyone with an ounce of sense must realise that rocking up in Berlin wearing a faux-Nazi uniform "as a protest against fascism" might just possibly be ill-advised.
Bono always struck me as a pretentious nob, but I'm not aware of anything that would put him in the "wrong 'un" bucket.
I think there is a bit of a difference between typical rockstar posturing (Bono), ****tery (Ian Brown, Eric Clapton) and downright nasty bastardness (Waters) - then you have actual criminals like Glitter and the guy from Lost Prophets. I tend to draw my line after ****tery.
I also don't get the hate for Bono - I mean he shoots his mouth off about things he doesn't understand but then who doesn't, its just that more people listen to him than most of us so it gets the airtime. Its hardly abusing kids or dressing up as a Nazi to perform on a holocaust site.
Even the anti-vax rantings, I mean its a point of view isn't it? A point of view thats not supported by science or facts but its not illegal to spout nonsense
Also, I disagree that The Wall is crap. It might be overblown but there are some absolute barnstormers on there - Sides 2 and 3 are exceptional.
I don’t think the internet has been kind to a lot of musicians. What’s the saying? Never meet your heroes or something? I came up on the UK rave club scene, I loved all these guys when they were the mysterious cool figure up in the DJ box. When they’re in your face on Facebook every day begging for likes, not so much. I think as an artist it’s important to keep your mystique. Hi Kate Bush 😍.
For this reason I don’t follow or connect with any musicians or artists online. This way I can listen to my old Pink Floyd and Michael Jackson LP’s unsullied. Not that in the latter’s case he was even proved to have done anything wrong. And even if so, when someone is that talented can’t they be forgiven a spot of light noncing?
Easy for me to say though, I’ve never been into Garry Glitter and hadn’t even heard of Lost Prophets until it all came out.
Ian Brown’s recent anti vax conspiracy ballcocks has totally ruined his stuff for me.
Him being a prick isn't a recent thing. He went to prison in the late '90's for threatening staff on a plane.
Also, I disagree that The Wall is crap.
It's not crap, let's face it, it's still better than anything Billy Joel ever did. However, it's not in the same league as Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
That’s your opinion. In my house DSOTM and TW get about equal time on the decks. Just realised I don’t own WYWH. Need to rectify that. Amazing album.
Thats your opinion, I find WYWH a bit dull (though its obviously better than anything Billy Joel ever did). DSOTM is OK but I like the Flaming Lips version almost as much!
Apart from the Wall, I actually prefer PF in their early days - I'm more See Emily Play than Money
It’s all subjective 😉
Should we not use these techniques because of what their inventors turned out to be – or worse because the development wasn’t ethical?
No-one is suggesting either of those things. If you were thinking about offering Dr Mengele a job or wanted to pay royalties on a patent that originated in death camp experimentation - then that might raise similar questions.
I must admit, I’ve not really played any Ryan Adams since his sexual misconduct/emotional abuse accusations as, well, he’s tainted for me. Ditto M. Gira and Mark Kozelek (aka Sun Kil Moon).
But then I’ve cooled on Bill Callahan and Will Oldham (not that they have been accused of similar just to point out!) so maybe that’s just me shedding another musical skin.
I’ve not listened to the Smiths in an age (more out of personal embarrassment I used to like them so much🤪) but Morrissey definitely helps me not want to even try.
People like Van the man have displayed their colours for years (I remember seeing him at a gig where he spent pretty much all the time facing the stage/band rather than the audience…) just means I’m not going to listen to anything ‘recent’ (i.e. since the early 80’s 😂). John Lydon’s support of both Trump and Brexit means he’s ‘rested’ for me.
There are always going to be issues with some people (i.e. weren’t there rumours about the (under)age of a ‘girlfriend’ of Jimmy Page’s back in the 70’s) and for that era you would have to have been a saint as what was deemed ‘normal’ behaviour then when viewed through a modern prism is not acceptable these days.
I also remember reading recently that a member of an upcoming K-pop girl band Le Sserafim was dropped over schoolmate bullying accusations… plus ca change (or something).
for that era you would have to have been a saint as what was deemed ‘normal’ behaviour then when viewed through a modern prism is not acceptable these days.
It was the 1970s, not the 14th century! Of course paedophilia was unacceptable then. If it had been socially acceptable, they wouldn't have hidden it.
metalheart Free Member
There are always going to be issues with some people (i.e. weren’t there rumours about the (under)age of a ‘girlfriend’ of Jimmy Page’s back in the 70’s) and for that era you would have to have been a saint as what was deemed ‘normal’ behaviour then when viewed through a modern prism is not acceptable these days.
"It was a different time" is often a tricky defence. It seems to come up a lot when people are defending folks who were actually still pretty bad even by the standards of "their" time. For some reason the (non-musical) one that sticks in my mind is HP Lovecraft. Yes the early 20th century had a lot of racism but Lovecraft was bad by the standards of the time and seems to have been challenged about it back then.
In the cases of people who are still alive and their behaviour in earlier eras it may come down to how they respond or reflect on it now. Has Jimmy Page publicly commented on his activities in the '70s?
"of its time" is complicated yep but, genuinely feels like things were different in the 70s for a lot of people. Lots of casting off of old rules, lots of experimentation and basically saying "we were repressed and drowning in it and we had to smash all that but equally we haven't figured out where the line actually should be".
ChrisL
Full MemberFor some reason the (non-musical) one that sticks in my mind is HP Lovecraft. Yes the early 20th century had a lot of racism but Lovecraft was bad by the standards of the time and seems to have been challenged about it back then.
The thing was, Lovecraft was defined by his phobias- he was also terrified of and hated fish, curved walls, the growth of the universe, the cold, open spaces, closed in spaces, old books, windows with one pane broken, the countryside and the passage of time, and loads more. Broadly speaking you can take any theme or horror in the writing, and shrink it down to its normal real world equivalent and you'd find something that Lovecraft was terrified of- the noneuclidean geometry stuff is totally from the curved walls frinstance. Poor bastard. The racism and antisemitism stands out but is it fair to treat that like it was a rock solid life decision while everything else was him being scared out of his mind since he was a kid?