[Closed] Badgers...

We'll find out when they've got rid of some.

The badger debate really is getting boring now, they should not be protected and need controlling, all species without predators get out of control, and for me, there is enough evidence to at least trial culling, though I accept it may not be THE answer in the long term, it needs to be tried, as there really aren't any viable alternatives at the moment.

Vaccinating badgers would be futile, and frankly a huge waste of resources & time, as you cannot guarantee to reach a high enough percentage of the population.

The compensation being paid out to farmers for TB infected cattle is millions, and increasing, so the situation needs sorting.

The long term, and best solution is cattle vaccination, but that is some years off as a synthetic vaccine that doesn't use the live virus is required in order to maintain exports. Current vaccines use a live virus component which tests can't differentiate from the actual virus. If we were to use that it would kill the export market overnight.

yes badgers are cute and cuddly & nice to see to the general population, and they don't appear to do any harm, but the truth is their numbers are spiralling out of control & they are the most likely carrier of TB.

It may not be ideal, but I don't see any better alternative to a trial cull, at least in the short - medium term.

Have lost all respect for (Dr) Brian May by the way, what a twonk.

Presumably the protestors, who seem to think that the natural world is a sort of Beatrix Potter fantasyland, aren't worried about the imminent loss of the British hedgehog due to predation by an out-of-control badger population...

& they are the most likely carrier of TB.

Apart from cattle, that is

It may not be ideal, but I don't see any better alternative to a trial cull, at least in the short - medium term.

That's fine, but is there any scientific precedent to suggest that it will be successful? My understanding of this is that it is just as likely to spread the disease due to badgers fleeing the area to other, non-infected areas.

Presumably the protestors, who seem to think that the natural world is a sort of Beatrix Potter fantasyland, aren't worried about the imminent loss of the British hedgehog due to predation by an out-of-control badger population...

If the trial was designed to reduce numbers to assist in population dynamics, as opposed to eradicate a virus for profit, you'd have a point.

What was proven to reduce bovine TB spread was reducing bovine spread- foot and mouth travel restrictions caused a massive drop. Cows pass it to cows, and we mingle our herds a lot. Meanwhile evidence for a badger cull is at best shaky and sometimes indicates that it'll increase the spread of TB.

I'm not going to come over all "badgerz is cute" because I like steak more than I like badgers, but to me it seems pretty obvious that the science is bad and that it's being done because the one thing that definitely will work is unpalatable.

all species without predators get out of control

[img] [/img]

If the trial was designed to reduce numbers to assist in population dynamics, as opposed to eradicate a virus for profit, y

Sound of a hair splitting. Win/win, if you ask me.

Farmers with "closed" herds still wind up getting BTV in their cattle. Where DOES it come from, I wonder (rhetoric alert)?

Next thing you know, they'll be whining about the return of hunting foxes with hounds.

Pfft.

I'm not going to come over all "badgerz is cute" because I like steak more than I like badgers

[img] [/img]

Sound of a hair splitting.

Not at all. The methods and experimental design to test the effects of reducing a (in British terms) large omnivore on the population dynamics of other mammals and the wider food web are quite different that those used to assess whether eradication of badgers = eradication of a virus.

If the money spent on this farce was spent on research for a vaccine, we might get somewhere.

The science says that culling increases TB initially as badger populations shift.

It also says that the cull will have an impact in 9 years, bringing about a 16% reduction.

It's not exactly a panacea.

Although vaccination sounds like a more intensive approach it doesn't have the initial increase effect and will bring down the number of badgers able to catch and transmit TB.

I like the work the Wildlife Trusts are doing -[url= http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/appeals/badgers ] if you're bothered. [/url]

I keep sheep and have huge sympathy for farmers seeing their herds destroyed, but I can't see that the cull will help.

youtube won't link, but this is worth a look "Run for your lives!"

[url= https://myspace.com/elwellinnit/video/trigger-happy-tv/5741873 ]https://myspace.com/elwellinnit/video/trigger-happy-tv/5741873[/url]

I see not much wildlife on the island in future ...

[i]If the trial was designed to reduce numbers to assist in population dynamics, as opposed to eradicate a virus for profit, you'd have a point.[/i]

It's my understanding that this trail is to determine how effective shooting is as a method of control rather than effecting the outcome of further infections of TB

You used to see a fair few badgers around Devon, they were a regular sight.. I haven't seen any at all, not one, not even roadkill in the last 5 years..

numbers spiralling out of control my big fat hairy arse

It's my understanding that this trail is to determine how effective shooting is as a method of control rather than effecting the outcome of further infections of TB

Well, in that case, I can save them the bother.

In terms of controlling an individual badger, it's probably highly effective. In terms of controlling a badger population at the regional scale, it's probably highly ineffective.

yes badgers are cute and cuddly...and they don't appear to do any harm

I beg to differ

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDtTeH-DZK8kx8l5bRzVWwayWGMre6Tu5lS8FDzI-pRszHIxrOeQ [/img]

Useful information:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19637936

There have already been culls - articles like [url= http://www.badgergate.org/guest-articles/why-a-badger-cull-wont-work/ ]this[/url] by researchers who have already tried culling.

Culling is a 'we have to do something no matter how rubbish it is' response. It won't work very well overall, it'll make things worse in the short term.

What about beavers ? can you catch TB from them ?

Evidence from New Zealand would indicate that control of external Virus Vectors (in the UK's case, Badgers) does have an effect on control of the virus.

http://www.bovinetb.info/newzealand.php

Bernard Hinault is probably worried, what with the Tour coming to the UK next year.

Dales_rider - Member
What about beavers ? can you catch TB from them ?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-23332669 ]Beaver spotted in the Otter[/url]

yes badgers are cute and cuddly

I dare you to try, if so can you record it?

Its estimated by DEFRA scientists to reduce the spread of TB by what 15% or something. It is at best pissing in the wind and massive waste of time and money. Its a political stunt at the expense of wild life.

that NZ article is odd as if you go to NZ you cannot ****ing move for possums

I think the whole Badger cull thing is a bit weak minded and not likely to cure the problem, Badgers arent the only carriers out there, as has been said other cattle, deer, muntjacks all sorts.

The culling thing was tried in Ireland and apparently was sucsessful.

So, to summarise:
It's not likely to cure the problem but when they did it in Ireland it was succesful.
Okaaaaayyy then...

"apparently" Mr Sparkle as well as everyone else who has commented on this I am no expert 😀

I think they were judging success by the fall in new cases, stats can be manipulated to show anything.

There are four dead badgers within 2 miles of my house at the moment (road kill) and that's without looking for fhen. Can't recall seeing them alive in the wild when I was young or even much road kill. But regular sightings on lanes and main roads all around Surrey these days.

I've seen 2 dead ones on the roads near us in the last week so us motorists seem to be doing a pretty good job of culling them anyway.

Stopped by a dead one yesterday as my daughter had never seen one in real life,(yes another fun day with dad looking at roadkill)

Why can't farmers vaccinate their cattle? Oh yeah, silly me - because it would cost cash money... 🙄

[img] [/img]

there should be a grey squirrel cull - tree rats.

there should be a [s]grey squirrel[/s] Tory cull - [s]tree[/s] rats.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/oct/13/badger-cull-mindless

However, the scientists reject the idea of scientific support for the cull, which could wipe out 100,000 badgers, a third of the national population. The cull policy is "mindless", according to Lord John Krebs, one of the UK's most eminent scientists and the architect of the landmark 10-year culling trials that ended in 2007. "The scientific case is as clear as it can be: this cull is not the answer to TB in cattle. The government is cherry-picking bits of data to support its case."

I met the guy about seven years ago. He knows his stuff. The morons in government do not, and their own chief scientist backs Krebs' assertion

Why can't farmers vaccinate their cattle? Oh yeah, silly me - because it would cost cash money...

No because it would be illegal under EU and UK law to sell the milk or meat. The TB vaccine at the moment uses a live virus. This cannot be allowed into the food chain. Work is being done on alternatives but its some way of. Perhaps you'd have a different view if a little fury animal was going to put you out of a job. As far as I'm aware bovine TB can effect humans I'd like to see a lid kept on it's spread.

Given the apparent over population of badgers that these cull trials are suposed to be putting to the test, I'd also like the way modern dairy herds are kept to be tested. Are some of these herds "over populated" and kept confined (wintered indoors) for to long. I suspect (but don't know) that intensive farming has not helped the larger herds. We all need our cheap food though.

Given the commercial issues, the cuddly animal issues I'd say the government are handling it resonably well.

Given the [s]commercial issues,[/s] tory voting famrers and the labour voting conservationists[s] the cuddly animal issues[/s] I'd say the government are handling it [s]resonably[/s] very well.

just a shame about the lack of scientific rigor

If the Tories are our economic saviours, why are they ignoring 50m-worth of government funded research?

As far as I'm aware bovine TB can effect humans I'd like to see a lid kept on it's spread.

I think you'll find the scar on the top of your arm that you received when you were about 14 is pretty effective at that.

Excuse my ignorance, I have done zero research. Why can't they vaccinate the cows?

Zokes you do know that a bcg is only about 80% effective and only lasts 15-20 years don't you. Plus the increase in resistant strains of tb meam that it may well be on the increase again

Excuse my ignorance, I have done zero research. Why can't they vaccinate the cows?

From page 1 of this thread ....

Current vaccines use a live virus component which tests can't differentiate from the actual virus. If we were to use that it would kill the export market overnight.

Zokes you do know that a bcg is only about 80% effective and only lasts 15-20 years don't you.

So... presumably 1 in 5 should have TB (I know more than four people, none of us have TB, and I'm fairly sure this is a common story), and people 30+ should be even more likely to contract it. I know plenty people over 30, and none of them have TB either.

Yes, I know that's a misuse of the statistics, but it's much less of a misuse than the government is responsible for in its interpretation of the science on this.

Thats answers my question then - thanks irc, zero research means not even read the whole thread properly 😳

We seem to import alot of meat (horsemeat scandal?). Become self sufficient, dont bother exporting meat and eat the stuff that has been vaccinated against TB maybe?

It's all pointless anyway, we're all gonna get the black death and die.

[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23843656 [/url]

And this map is interesting

[img] [/img]

There's badgers pretty much everywhere TB has broken out in some very distinct areas, and we're killing badgers in completely different areas.

Well I'm sold. What a crock of shit.

Zokes, that's a rather blatant disregard of how population immunity works but hey you have a point you want to make so don't let science get in the way. You only have to look at the increase in measles as a result of the mmr scare and reduction in group immunity leading to an increase in viable disease vectors to see. Anyway shooting badgers, not a fab idea but immunisation of the badger population won't work as the total percentage of the population that would need to immunised to effectively break the transmission cycle is unfeasible....not a simple answer really.

Zokes, that's a rather blatant disregard of how population immunity works

I admitted as much, however, this:

but hey you have a point you want to make so don't let science get in the way.

is also true of the government and the present 'scientific trial'.

Thankfully I'm only making a point with a semi-spurious interpretation of statistics on a cycling forum. The government is doing it on a vast scale in real life, in direct contradiction to the research and advice it paid for. I'd aim your scorn at them if I were you.

Anyway shooting badgers, not a fab idea but immunisation of the badger population won't work as the total percentage of the population that would need to immunised to effectively break the transmission cycle is unfeasible....not a simple answer really.

Hang on, you say immunising them so they can't pass TB on won't work, but killing them (presumably so they can't pass the disease on) will. I are confuse.

Nah I was saying that shooting them is a dumb idea but so is immunising them. Unless there is going to be a mass badger genocide to wipe them out as a vector or to reduce them to isolated pockets it'll never work. Now if we could turn them into a food source or have badger wool and badger milk the farmers could get rid of the cows and have badger ranches instead. No more bovine tb issues. I should be prime minister. .I think of solutions that'll help the world 😀

According to that map theres no badgers where I live (Cornwall, and not in one of the little pink spots) I rode my bike near a big badger sett tonight. There is a path over the hedge accross the road from my house that is at least decades old made by badgers, we cannot leave the bins out overnight before collection day because the buggers rip the bags open and I have seen four run over out on the road in the last six months (thats right outside, see many more when driving further afield) If there's no badgers in the cull area how do they manage to find the reported 100+ a night to shoot?
I still don't know if I agree with this cull or not but that map is wrong.

It's my understanding that this trail is to determine how effective shooting is as a method of control rather than effecting the outcome of further infections of TB

Next weeks Telegraph headline

"TB Outbreak, Strain Carried by Fox"