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I know stoves kill baby robins, but I live in the middle of no where in an old house with no gas (mains or LPG) and an endless supply of firewood on site.
Now we're got that out of the way...
Just had a small stove fitted and it's a bugger to light without smoking. If I close the door immediately after lighting it snuffs out the fire lighters, if I leave the door open (as per instructions) then smoke escapes into the room. It feels like there is no natural draw on the chimney and I need to get some heat in there to create it. Which is hard to do without letting smoke into the room!
Stove is a dedicated wood burner (Mi stoves Skiddaw) with no grate or air intake underneath. It's twinwall through the wall and routed externally. I'm lighting it with "top down" approach and a couple of decent sized firelighters on top. Once it's up and running it seems ok but do occasionally get a bit of smoke / ash escaping when I add logs.
This isn't my first rodeo and we've had several stoves before, including a big 12kW one in the other room They have always been a doddle to light - single firelighter underneath, handful of kindling and a few larger logs on top and roaring away in no time. However, this is the first time I've had a) externally routed flue and b) a dedicated wood burner with no grate and lower air vent.
Anyone else with similar installations have similar? Is it just a combo of the type of stove and external routing of flue (which I imagine is colder and needs more warming than an internal flue up a chimney or is there something else wrong?
Is it any better not using the top down method?. I tend to leave the door with a 1/4" gap so that it pulls air in, creates a bit of a frenzy, then once kindling sticks are lit, only then do I close the door.
As you say, it could be that your chimney has a shit draw, mine is fine but can struggle if there's a northerly.
Most likely the external flue getting cold. Ours does much the same if the wall with the chimney gets cold enough (its brick, but on the exposed end of house). Once going it is fine.
The fix for ours, is to fill the thing with scrunched newspaper and let that rip for a few seconds before coming back and starting up the kindling and whatnot.
edit: inlaws used to have 2 identical stoves, one in the lounge, chimney not exposed at all, went up like a rocket, the other in the hall, external flue, complete pain to get going when cold.
Bad draw could be the cold flue or something else like the room is a bit air tight. Does it help if you open a window before you light the stove?
A sheet or two of newspaper is supposed to be a good way to get a little warmth into a flue to start the draw.
Aye, pretty much what I need to do to, the availabilty of newspaper is the main issue now!
@Nobeer - bottom up method is worse to be honest, it creates smoke from the kindling before any heat gets into the flue. Seems like you need some heat from the fire lighters to create the draw, before they start lighting the kindling and creating smoke.
Have tried opening the window (as it is a small room) but just the same result.
Sounds like the cold flue is the issue then. I do think the design of the stove doesn't help much either. The baffle plate directs the heat / smoke / any disturbed ash right out the front of the stove - presumably to make it burn as efficiently as possible when the door is closed. The older stoves we've had / got have more of a lip at the top of the door opening.
Will give the newspaper a go - cheers 🙂
Aye, pretty much what I need to do to, the availabilty of newspaper is the main issue now!
Not the most cost effective, but could you, on each shopping trip, buy up ALL COPIES of "the newspaper that shall not be named on STW", bring them home and burn them.
Bit of community service?
Interesting re: cold flue. Ours occasionally just fills with smoke but then suddenly clears - didn't realise this was the cause. On very cold days will just get some firelighters going then to warm it up a touch 🙂
Leave the door open for a bit to introduce some initial heat to the system? Place a candle in there for a bit for the same effect?
Yes, newspaper (and amazon boxes, and basically anything paper/card) is at the heart of our lighting method.
Not the most cost effective, but could you, on each shopping trip, buy up ALL COPIES of “the newspaper that shall not be named on STW”, bring them home and burn them.
Bit of community service?
The wife's gran gets said newspaper, she's my only source these days, so I can't be choosy!.
These are good too btw
https://www.lektowoodfuels.co.uk/products/firelighters-natural-wood
Not the most cost effective, but could you, on each shopping trip, buy up ALL COPIES of “the newspaper that shall not be named on STW”, bring them home and burn them.
Bit of community service?
My FiL used to bring us his copies of the paper that shall not be named for our fire when we lived near them. To be honest in the process of rolling it up into little nests, you couldn't stop yourself reading it. And then if you left copies by the fire visitors would think they were yours. Was not a win for me!
the availability of newspaper is the main issue now!
Never thought we'd miss the free paper/local rag but now i have to pay money for a paper for fire lighting duties, mumble grumble.
We had the same in our old house with external twin wall flue. Often needed something that burnt quick and hot to get the draw. I started saving all the bog roll tubes and used those.
These are good too btw
Natural Firelighters
Yeah, I love those too (after initially keeping away from them after the company seems to be spamming me on every social media platform going).
They are by far the best thing I have found for using with a chimney style BBQ starter as well.
We have the same problem, I have always assumed it is cold flue or a plug of cold air in the flue.
A couple of sheets of newspaper lit whilst door is open a notch sorts it out as they burn hot and fast. you can soon see when the draw is good as the flames from the paper get drawn up. If I forget then there is a mad rush to chuck paper in before the room fills up with smoke!
mumble grumble.
To be fair, that would probably burn quite well and be less embarrassing than being caught with the Daily Mail.
Leave the door open for a bit to introduce some initial heat to the system?
IME if the air is coming down the flue that will just let cold air into the room.
Need to get a mass of hot air in the fire before the flow goes back to normal direction (hence newspaper with the door closed).
I did actually wonder about leaving the stove door open overnight (it's in an office so fire burnt out by bed time) but couldn't figure out if the warmth from the room would beat the cold from outside... Certainly when you open the stove door when it's not been lit you can feel cold air coming down the flue so I imagine it'll not have any impact.
We have similar here, often think external weather pressure a factor too. Milder heavier air and can feel draught down chimney not a draw up it. Sometimes getting newspaper to light a challenge - just no draw and smoke backs up into room.
Tried various different approaches. The current and working well is a very loose ‘Jenga’ stack of kindling with newspaper in between ie plenty of gaps between layers of kindling so space for air.
Still a dark art and sometimes I just know from the down draught and sooty smell that the stoves best left alone as guaranteed a smoky room if even tried to light it. The only good news as above is tends to be milder damper days so can live without on those days.
My brother gets this with his wood burner, instead of firelighters he now uses a weed burner. Blasts the kindling for a minute to get the fire going and then a few seconds with the burner aimed up the flue. Seems to do the job nicely.
mumble grumble.
To be fair, that would probably burn quite well and be less embarrassing than being caught with the Daily Mail.
Well, quite.
I've been chopping the kindling sticks really thin recently as they light much quicker.
I can now light the stove with a single sheet of newspaper on top of two logs.
instead of firelighters he now uses a weed burner.
If you're feeling a bit hillbilly, judicious use of a lit spray of WD40 into the flue can provide a lot of flames in the right place very quickly.
External flue takes ages to get going in my experience. Need to start properly small to generate a small amount of heat in the chimney which you can then build up. We used to light a piece of paper or even sometimes a tealight and hold it close to the top of the stove inside... PITA vs internally lined chimneys I've had in 3 other houses where its dead simple to bang on some kindling and a firelighter and light it.
Get a flue liner installationed
Had exactly this issue with our £3k Clearview installation. Argued for months with the muppet installer who insisted it was due to us burning damp wood. Eventually he installed a stainless chimney liner which sorted the problem.
Essentially if there's not enough heat in the chimney then it stops convecting. The lack of heat can be resolved by powering through a load of newspapers as above, or by adding more insulation in the chimney to stop the stonework chilling the gases so much
Had years of trying to make our perform better but failed then bit the bullet and bought flue exhaust fan.
Chimney Fan
Works fantastic no smoke in room , more control over fire, whack it on full when cleaning out and all the ash and dust goes up the chimney. Just wish I had done it sooner.
Not the most cost effective, but could you, on each shopping trip, buy up ALL COPIES of “the newspaper that shall not be named on STW”, bring them home and burn them.
Bit of community service?
I'm not sure giving them extra funding is the best way about it, you'd better off buying copies of any other newspaper and burning those.
If you think the baffle is too restrictive take it out and see how the stove lights a few times. If they does make a difference then cut a bit off the baffle.
Depends on the design of the flu & how many bends/elbows are installed. The draw can be pathetic to non existent as the small amount of convection during lighting isn't enough to move the combustion gases and air up the flu if it's too kinky! My flu has a 90deg elbow out of the stove & a couple of small offsets to clear the eaves & draws as soon as there's flames. Is it twinwall or a flu liner you had installed?
Sounds like a cold flue problem. Is there any way you could insulate your flue against it?
A good ,quick and hot way to get a fire started, or to at least prime a flue that i use is to get dedicated kindling wood and put it in an airing cupboard or similar for a few days beforehand. Shave , or if youre good with an axe, chop little shavings off this and stack in the grate. Build a little jenga tower around it from similar dry splittings, and light. Burns hot and smokeless after about 10 secs when i do it in my stove and in my open fireplace. The injection of top air also clears any smoke, as it aids in secondary burn.
Do you have firebricks around the sides of your stove? These will aid immensely in keeping the heat in the firebox where you want it. If there is too much spare space in your firebox maybe you could put another layer of firebrick in there to reduce the amount of free space you have to heat before the stove starts to heat.
The weed burner up the flue trick sounds like it could be a winner too, you could light a small bit of cardboard to smoke test it to see if the draw is sufficient before lighting the fire proper, that would avoid the flue belching a real fires' worth of smoke back at you .
I haven't tried this but directing a hairdrier at the kindling might help things start nicely
I have tried a hairdryer on coal, and basically you get a forge capable of heating steel up to slippery heat.
Bushcrafters use a little telescopic stainless pipe to blow air directly into the embers of a fire . Same principle, air flow will differ though. It definitely works to get a smouldering fire to burst into life.
Thanks all - learning to live with it but definitely sounds like it's cold flue. It's twinwall, out through the external wall at chest height, 2 x 45 degree bends through the wall then 2 more higher up to clear the guttering.
Fitter has installed an extra 500mm of flue to try and help with draw and it's made a little bit of difference but still nowt like the internally routed flue lined chimneys we've got or had in the past.
As well as the flue being cold, especially if not insulated in any way, it might not be tall enough either. Ideally a chimney will be above the ridge line so that the prevailing wind is always blowing over it, causing a disturbance that helps the draw (doesn't work during very calm winter inversions but good the rest of the time). So also consider if your flue meets building regs and sits well-exposed.
4 times 45 degree elbows is at the limit of flu construction & design. Does it have a 90 deg elbow out the back of the stove or does the flu exit the top? Neil's idea about modifying the damper at the top of the stove might be worth investigating to see if this yields a result. It's there to keep the heat in the stove and stop it disappearing up the chimney. Are the air vents ate the bottom of the stove definitely open? It might be worth experimenting with different ways of lighting. My experience is the same as yours. Bit of firelighter & some kindling and off it goes.
Ours has similar problems but is very dependent on the outside conditions.
Those natural firelighters mentioned above plus a sheet of newspaper (The Times I’ll have you know) help no end. And to improve things further I untwist one of the firelighters so the surface area is massively increased - light that first, then the paper and it heats up the flue really quickly.
(I put 2 medium logs as a base creating a little valley, then tuck firelighters in there, then kindling and a smallish log on top, door open a little until there’s a good base of embers then add a big log and shut the door).
Textbook cold air column in the flue preventing a draft forming. Use more kindling and leave the door open a crack to create a good draw.
Remember if you have a bathroom extractor fan or cooker hood running, this can seriously hinder getting a good draw. If we are running both with the fire unlit you can sometimes smell the smoke.
We don't generally have problems but occasionally I need to crack open a window to help get the flue drawing properly with some newspaper.
I've heard that a quick blast with a hair dryer before lighting will get the flue drawing quickly, but I imagine the risk of blowing ash every where is likely...a more practical option could be to stick a large candle or oil lamp in the grate for 10 minutes.
We have a stove in the house that behaved exactly as you described. Russian roulette as to whether it would draw or not - sometimes there would be hope, then it would hit cold air near rte top and all come back down again, handy for kipper production.
Basically warming the flue in advance - with some device or another - was the only way to guarantee performance.
It was a north facing wall, initially just a stone lined flue, it wasn't until a flue was fitted, and *then* lined as well with the vermicelli beads, that the stove started to behave properly.