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Almost immediately after the deadly stabbing attack in Southport, baseless rumours began spreading online.
While police and emergency services were still responding to the attack, a widely shared LinkedIn post claimed without evidence that "a migrant" was responsible.
But the most viral source of rumours so far has been a report published on an obscure US-based website which claims to cover "breaking news".
The report falsely claims that that the 17-year old suspect is an "asylum seeker" named "Ali Al-Shakati", who "arrived in the UK by boat last year".
Merseyside Police has confirmed that the suspect was born in Cardiff, and has yet to identify the 17-year-old.
The report also adds that the suspect was "on the MI6 watch list", despite the fact that it is MI5, not MI6, that deals with domestic counter-terrorism cases.
The name "Ali Al-Shakati" has since been widely shared online in posts viewed by millions.
Some other outlets, including Russia's RT news channel, have also reported this name, citing the US-based website.
Other variations of the report, including the claim that the suspect was a "Channel migrant", have also been widely circulated.
From the BBC regarding the horrific stabbing on young girls at a dance class yesterday. I'm not sure the BBC should publishing this either but maybe it will help counter some of the vicious claims being made.
We really need some social media laws to prosecute twitter and facebook et al for allowing the dissemination of such disinformation. I know many will scream about freedom of speech but it's the only solution because it does horrific damage. I've already had one mate repeating the supposed 'facts' from twitter who I've had to put right and seen others on local facebook groups having rants about immigrants in relation to it.
Do you think these sites just make up a story to fit a headline they've heard or is someone feeding them this shite? Perhaps they heard it from RT and filled in more gaps?
There are some very strange people out there, both on line and in the real world who have somehow built up a very distorted vision of the world.
I find it quite sad that this has been on the forefront of a lot peoples minds - religious persuasion. There is absolutely no doubt that certain 'communities' do have a problem with knife crime and with radicalisation (seemingly now branded as mental health problems).
I have noticed that on SM there seems to be very little empathy or sympathy for the families that were innocently caught up with some lunatic who deliberately targeted easy pickings. So sad to read about it all. Didn't something similar happen last year in Annecy?
I'd argue that there are some very clever, manipulative people preying on some less intelligent, frustrated, often scared people.
The internet is a prime example of something promising so much, but being so insidious in action.
It'll still play out like this over the coming weeks, 17 year old of Rwandan parents, you can see the usual suspects lining up, i'll wait for the actual information, but it is an absolutely horrific attack, having an 8 year old who does summer clubs just now, i won't be alone in following this one.
As for the BBC, they have published it as not verified and posted the police's statement regarding this as being false information, so can't see any issues, probably best to be done to have it out on a real website to counter the 'fake' news.
It's an absolute mess on X, things like this remind me of why I rarely go on there.
SM needs to be stamped on hard, it isn't capable of self regulation.
**************************
Utter tragedy, a third child has just succumbed to her(?) injuries.
I’d argue that there are some very clever, manipulative people preying on some less intelligent, frustrated, often scared people.
What's more scary is that they are also preying, and sometimes quite successfully, on quite intelligent, comfortable and confident people, who then go on and spread the hatred they are fed.
I have noticed that on SM there seems to be very little empathy or sympathy for the families that were innocently caught up with some lunatic who deliberately targeted easy pickings.
I'm fairness, there is a genuine outpouring of empathy and sympathy on X... it's just drowned out to a degree by people trying to promote their chosen bias on both sides.
Doesn't repeating these rumours just boost their Google stats?
is that helpful ?
We really need some social media laws to prosecute twitter and facebook et al for allowing the dissemination of such disinformation.
We already have such laws. From another STW thread just this morning:
https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/24481949.ramsbottom-man-sentenced-sharing-offensive-posts-online/
The issue here isn't social media, it's media in general.
I know many will scream about freedom of speech
Let them.
Freedom of speech flows in both directions and doesn't extend to stirring up terrorism.
Do you think these sites just make up a story to fit a headline they’ve heard or is someone feeding them this shite?
Putins propaganda machine and the "Bannon network" both do this all the time, it is just creating division and hate to divide and rule. The Czech were doing some good highlighting of this kind of misinformation and as far as I know were the only country that are even highlighting this propaganda to their citizens. Unfortunately while politicians in power are using the lies to further themselves then it will not be dealt with properly.
Just FYI, Google Translate says Ali Al Shakati means "I have to go to my apartment".
We already have such laws.
Well they're obviously not working. They need to be threatened with multi-billion dollar fines or complete shutdown if they fail to remove posts stoking hatred and social division. I'm as liberal as they come on issues around freedom of speech but on this issue we need some good old-fashioned censorship.
Would be nice if this thread had focused on 3 young girls, all under 10, killed in an absolutely horrific attack, and 9 others in critical condition, those parents of the children who have died must be going through hell, start of the summer holidays, send your kid off to a summer camp event and they never come home, should be the happiest times of their lives, and now, i don't even have a guess on how much pain and misery is running through their heads.
Anyway, i'll let you guys get back to caring more about daft posts and the likes that have been around since the internet was invented.
Just FYI, Google Translate says Ali Al Shakati means “I have to go to my apartment”.
I think that's the literal version, can also be interpreted as 'I'm tweeting from my Mum's basement'
Seriously, the platforms can hide behind free speech but I feel there have to be repercussions, on the platforms but also on the people that retweet this stuff. I know technically you can't slander 'individuals unknown' but it's barely dogwhistle level opacity, what the intent is here and it is slandering whole communities.
My kids have done these classes in the past, my son's at rehearsals all this week, my daughter now teaches classes at the weekends. The thought of an attacker in any of them just chills my blood, I can't imagine how these parents feel right now.
Would be nice if this thread had focused on 3 young girls, all under 10, killed in an absolutely horrific attack, and 9 others in critical condition, those parents of the children who have died must be going through hell, start of the summer holidays, send your kid off to a summer camp event and they never come home, should be the happiest times of their lives, and now, i don’t even have a guess on how much pain and misery is running through their heads.
Anyway, i’ll let you guys get back to caring more about daft posts and the likes that have been around since the internet was invented.
bit of a strawman there , and pretty nasty to insinuate people dont care about the deaths
bit of a strawman there , and pretty nasty to insinuate people dont care about the deaths
More a case of folk focusing on some internet garbage by the usual extremists, rather than even going into any detail of the attack
Would be nice if this thread had focused on 3 young girls, all under 10, killed in an absolutely horrific attack, and 9 others in critical condition, those parents of the children who have died must be going through hell
There isn't a person on this forum of any persuasion that doesn't think the same as I posted earlier, it's a ***** tragedy. To see it being used to further instill hated just compounds it further.
More a case of folk focusing on some internet garbage by the usual extremists, rather than even going into any detail of the attack
what details do you want?
because as a dad with an 8 year old daughter who sings along to Taylor swift, theres no detail of it I want to think about TBH
As others have said I didn't think we needed to dwell on the horror of what happened, we have no information on motivation so best not to speculate. I started the thread because the BBC was calling out the misinformation that was being furiously pumped into the internet which horrific as the incident is I thought was a bigger issue. I was also a bit surprised to see the BBC come off the fence for one.
Well they’re obviously not working. They need to be threatened with multi-billion dollar fines or complete shutdown if they fail to remove posts stoking hatred and social division.
Well, then you're also banning television, newspapers and communication in general.
I’m as liberal as they come
No you aren't.
No you aren’t.
Whatever. Can't be arsed having an argument off the back of this and you're clearly looking for one.
There is little to no chance of effective regulation anytime soon as that would need a worldwide collective effort and those that are using SM to manipulate already have too much power.
I think this is a very worthwhile thread. As I don't go to the online places where this bollocks is paraded, I was unaware it was an issue. At least I am now forewarned so when a nobhead in the pub or similar, pipes up I'm in a position to counter with some facts.
This type of misinformation is on all sides and there are plenty of threads on here where users will quote any old dubious source if it backs up their prejudice. For instance - a journalist on Twitter - has been used a few times. Having an account on a social media platform which has long since abandoned any standards, and is run by Elon Musk, isn't a good reason to be treated as reliable. No matter how much it reinforces your personal world view.
It is also not fair to suggest anyone commenting on this doesn't care about the incident itself. Whilst we don't know what is behind this attack, many similar have been fuelled by lies and hate spread across the Internet, so identifying that misinformation is being spread in this case is perfectly legitimate.
There's nothing to say about the facts behind the attack as so little is known, or at least able to be shared, so I don't have a problem with flagging obvious lies being shared to stoke up division and hatred.
Later this afternoon my 17 year old will be coaching junior gymnasts at her club, before training for a couple of hours with her squad. This kind of horrific attack makes you see things in a different context, especially as we are involved with other youth groups as well.
But what can be done? Horrific and tragic as it is, this is an incredibly rare event. Do we turn every dance school, village hall and Scout hut into a fortress and lock kids inside? Or do we hope that from this tragedy we learn to address the root causes of why these things (rarely) happen, whether that's family issues, mental health or social services failures or whatever, and as a society decide its better to invest in prevention, rather than leave communities to invest in funerals and memorials?
Very well put MCTD.
But what can be done? Horrific and tragic as it is, this is an incredibly rare event. Do we turn every dance school, village hall and Scout hut into a fortress and lock kids inside? Or do we hope that from this tragedy we learn to address the root causes of why these things (rarely) happen, whether that’s family issues, mental health or social services failures or whatever, and as a society decide its better to invest in prevention, rather than leave communities to invest in funerals and memorials?
Well, practically speaking, seeing as this:
Do we turn every dance school, village hall and Scout hut into a fortress and lock kids inside?
is not possible and this:
Or do we hope that from this tragedy we learn ...
is, sadly, laughably optimistic, I think that only leaves one solution:
We go about our lives as usual, but allow adults to arm themselves with guns. Just in case, for self defence.
That may sound flippant but that's not the intention, just what came up while I was thinking about it. It's easy to see how people might start to think that kind of thing for real, and this only goes to bad places, as we might see from *ahem* certain other countries.
As for what really to do, learning as you say would be great, but how likely is 'society' to actually do it?
We go about our lives as usual, but allow adults to arm themselves with guns.
That would likely have ensured this guy didn't have a knife but a gun to go on the attack with. It's an escalation, the last thing we need.
Anyway, i’ll let you guys get back to caring more about daft posts and the likes that have been around since the internet was invented.
Really?, what you want is a virtual flower laying? - personally I think it’s of more importance to highlight the misinformation networks and out them.
That would likely have ensured this guy didn’t have a knife but a gun to go on the attack with. It’s an escalation, the last thing we need.
Exactly!
I just found the thought process interesting and it gave a (little) bit of insight on how this way of thinking starts.
Tragic, on so many levels. What sort of life has some had to have led to get to a point where this is a choice?
I'm not a parent, so I can't event begin to imagine the emotional torture of losing a child in such a way, or supporting one who has been attacked in such a brutal way.
In a week or two this will drift out of the news cycle but there will be people still wrestling with the enormity of this moment for the rest of their lives. Maybe if the talking heads on SM bore that in mind they might consider the impact of their words.
Tragedy doesn't fully capture the depth of this incident in the slightest.
Do we turn every dance school, village hall and Scout hut into a fortress and lock kids inside?
It doesnt have to be a fortress. Our scout hall had a simple bolt on the door and a doorbell. Occasionally you'd get a parent turn up early, and you'd just go out, see who it was through the glass screen and let them in.
We go about our lives as usual, but allow adults to arm themselves with guns. Just in case, for self defence.
This is a joke right? Please tell me this was a joke.
It doesnt have to be a fortress. Our scout hall had a simple bolt on the door and a doorbell. Occasionally you’d get a parent turn up early, and you’d just go out, see who it was through the glass screen and let them in.
I suspect that will be one of the likely consequences of yesterday. For a tiny level of inconvenience and cost I should imagine it will become the norm.
What sort of life has some had to have led to get to a point where this is a choice?
Captures my thoughts on the attacker perfectly. Utter tragedy.
This is a joke right? Please tell me this was a joke.
Not a joke. Not entirely serious either! I just found myself starting to think towards that conclusion in response to MCTD's post and found it interesting. I can see how people start that way and then get deluded.
There is absolutely no doubt that certain ‘communities’ do have a problem with knife crime and with radicalisation (seemingly now branded as mental health problems).
Presumably the welsh in this case?. Looks like a bad actor quite close to home
Would be nice if this thread had focused on 3 young girls, all under 10, killed in an absolutely horrific attack, and 9 others in critical condition, those parents of the children who have died must be going through hell, start of the summer holidays, send your kid off to a summer camp event and they never come home, should be the happiest times of their lives, and now, i don’t even have a guess on how much pain and misery is running through their heads.
Anyway, i’ll let you guys get back to caring more about daft posts and the likes that have been around since the internet was invented.
You can do both. It's not a binary choice to discuss one thing & not feel about the other thing.
Not a joke. Not entirely serious either! I just found myself starting to think towards that conclusion in response to MCTD’s post and found it interesting. I can see how people start that way and then get deluded.
Very few things scare me, but this is one of them. I'm very glad I live in a society free (in the most part) of firearms.
You can do both. It’s not a binary choice to discuss one thing & not feel about the other thing.
Would've been nice for the first few posts to focus on the horrific attack and how we've got here, rather than some fringe mentalist in the US who wrote lies that was reposted by right wing nutters, those freaks will do the same nonsense day in, day out, this type of attack thankfully only happens every few years, and is much more important than internet fantasists.
right wing nutters,
If it's even them. Interesting brief a few years back from some intelligence nerds on the sorts of occasions hostile state actors will capitalise on to sow division.
But people leap on it and engage, I bet if you climbed into the ****ter analytics that sort of bile has higher engagement than sensible, measured discourse. It's all quite sad really.
I think we should change the libel laws to make organisations who circulate libellous material partially responsible for them. It would open the opportunity for individuals or groups harmed by these recirculations to take their case to court.
That would likely have ensured this guy didn’t have a knife but a gun to go on the attack with. It’s an escalation, the last thing we need.
This deserves more introspection.
In the UK we have a Knife Crime problem. The reason for this is because criminals and thugs have little reason to carry guns. Other gangers probably don't have guns, the popo aren't carrying guns except as an extraordinary response, so if you're someone predisposed to walking around with your pants falling down thinking you're the cock of the walk then you don't need a gun. Gardening implements and a bad attitude will suffice.
It's awful of course, but on balance I think I'd prefer living in a society where going "tooled up" involves actual tools, and some teenager with a blade is shocking headline news rather than them strolling into a shopping mall to exercise their constitutional rights with an assault rifle.
Would’ve been nice for the first few posts to focus on the horrific attack and how we’ve got here, rather than some fringe mentalist in the US who wrote lies that was reposted by right wing nutters
If the thread had been 'Southport tragedy' and then people jumped straight on the who's to blame for spreading false dogwhistle rumours I might agree, but 'Bad actors stoking hate' kind of encapsulates what is being discussed.
Argue that we should have had 'Southport tragedy' first and then this one if you want, but there's not a parent, not a decent human* that isn't shocked and saddened by this.
* inevitably there will be some ****s that even though they'll outwardly be saying the right stuff, will actually see this as acceptable collateral damage in their war to stoke up division and hatred. Hurts me to say it but there will be. That's who we're up against, make no mistake.
The reason for this is because criminals and thugs have little reason to carry guns
“The reason for this is because criminals and thugs have reasonably poor access to firearms” would be more accurate.
National Strategic Assessment that criminals and thugs will use them if they have them: Urban street gang activity accounts for most firearm discharges, including those that result in injury. The key drivers for firearms enabled serious violence is the drugs trade, ‘turf wars’, criminal debt and feuds. Some of these criminal feuds are long-standing and result in periodic escalations of violence.
I have to say this terrible act has hit me harder than I realised. Most probably I guess because I'm local, less than a mile away with children around the same age but still, not used to feeling so emotional over an event in the news. Just the senselessness I guess. Mood is very sombre here. One of the kids goes to the same school as mine. Just can't compute it right now.
Stevet1
Full Member
I have to say this terrible act has hit me harder than I realised. Most probably I guess because I’m local, less than a mile away with children around the same age but still, not used to feeling so emotional over an event in the news. Just the senselessness I guess. Mood is very sombre here. One of the kids goes to the same school as mine. Just can’t compute it right now.
That's a very human response mate and I think being physically close to where an atrocity happened makes it even more impactful.
Would be nice if this thread had focused on 3 young girls, all under 10, killed in an absolutely horrific attack, and 9 others in critical condition, those parents of the children who have died must be going through hell, start of the summer holidays, send your kid off to a summer camp event and they never come home, should be the happiest times of their lives, and now, i don’t even have a guess on how much pain and misery is running through their heads.
Anyway, i’ll let you guys get back to caring more about daft posts and the likes that have been around since the internet was invented.
The thread was specifically about how the crazies of the internet will do whatever they can to provoke hate and division.
If you don't like that, maybe instead of sneering at people who do wish to discuss that, you could go and start a threads which is specifically about the tragedy itself.
You are well wide of the mark on this one.
rogermoore
Full Member
Looks like the bad actors have stoked up trouble. Desperately sad, all of it.RM.
Oh dear, yeah. Why did I have to look on X again. Time to knock it on the head again for a few months.
Plenty on there fueling the "protest" tonight. I despair.
relapsed_mandalorianFull Member
right wing nutters,
If it’s even them
Rioters are currently shouting "Tommy Robinson"
I think we should change the libel laws to make organisations who circulate libellous material partially responsible for them. It would open the opportunity for individuals or groups harmed by these recirculations to take their case to court.
Can you imagine the scale of the 502 Club appeals if STW were liable for some of the bollocks we spout on here?
(Consider this a winking humour emoji)
You are well wide of the mark on this one.
Yeah, lets talk about changing the legislation for idiots posting on the internet like they have since the 90s, instead of focusing on a horrific knife crime that's resulted in 3 deaths and many serious injuries.
Well wide of the mark focusing on the tragedy that occurred rather than someone in the US posting todays dose of fake news.
Just had to drive across town and it's kicking off big time. The whole tragedy is being hijacked.
Well wide of the mark focusing on the tragedy that occurred rather than someone in the US posting todays dose of fake news.
And yet as a result of the hare being whipped up the 'patriots' are trying to burn down a mosque, are attack a police and have set a police van on fire.....
Rioters are currently shouting “Tommy Robinson”
JFC. This the same bloke who has done a runner out the country because he was about to be lifted? My response was more directed at the online misinformation, no doubt in my mind that it's being enhanced by some proper shitheads as well as the wobbleheaded bigots.
You know they're going to view themselves as 'heroes' & 'patriots' for 'taking a stand'. All the while some families are in absolute turmoil trying to process a very vivid version of hell that's just been visited on them.
Shit c***s.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."
- A public order instructor, 2004.
What a way the honour the memory of the poor dead school children. Aghast.
What a way the honour the memory of the poor dead school children. Aghast.
Sadly it's not about that in the slightest. This is a deliberate and selfish act with zero consideration for those little kids and their families.
They're so full of fear and hate that logic has left the room (if it was even there in the first place).
And yet as a result of the hare being whipped up the ‘patriots’ are trying to burn down a mosque, are attack a police and have set a police van on fire…..
And they wouldn't be doing that if some fake report last night in the US was released, i don't think the actual child of Rwandan parents press release has lessened the EDL and all their hatred!
What an absolute horrific of a thing to do to little children.
One thing is guaranteed is that he wont lasr long in prison with a big X on his baxk. Lwts hope he suffers.
They’re so full of fear and hate that logic has left the room (if it was even there in the first place).
I am not sure in some cases it is "fear and hate" vs deliberate stoking. I am guessing some people are very happy with the results so far as depressing as it is to write that.
If its anything like the mosques round here they have now terrified some more poor kids. I would like to think some of those involved will feel shit about it...
Probably a caustic mix of the two elements I'd imagine. With some third party stoking to boot.
Typical bigoted pricks believing any old nonsense.
Some of the emergency services that responded to yesterday's attack are now being attacked by the mob.
WTF goes through the mind of these people. As I said earlier
inevitably there will be some ****s that even though they’ll outwardly be saying the right stuff, will actually see this as acceptable collateral damage in their war to stoke up division and hatred. Hurts me to say it but there will be. That’s who we’re up against, make no mistake.
- and already it has started.
Listened to Radcliffe and Macony on catch up on the chain today.
the woman on the chain was less than adorable to Southport. Says she is under her bed eating her words
The Police should name the suspect, as it has been done with Huw Edwards.
By not giving all the facts, hearsay and speculation starts.
Huw Edwards is over 18.
I can follow the thought process that someone who had been deceived by online misinformation that this was an Islamic terrorist plot and decide to go attack the local mosque.
(I obviously neither support nor condone it, but I can see the logic from the hard of thinking population).
But what is their reasoning between attacking police and general rioting? What is the idiots logic behind either of these actions?
And this is why I thought the thread title more appropriate to discuss than the actual horrific events. What's now transpiring is doing so much damage to our social cohesion. I despair.
State of southport is unreal.
My neice is the same age and lives close to the area and does activities there.
Everyone is in shock then the racist coked up gobshites get the train on and riot... ****s sake
The Police should name the suspect, as it has been done with Huw Edwards.
Leaving aside the fact the person who has been arrested is 17 Hue Edwards was arrested in November of last year and charged last month. Hence the rather stupid headline saying he had kept it secret from friends, ermmm no shit sherlock. I think its in the news now because he is due to appear in court tomorrow.
But what is their reasoning between attacking police and general rioting? What is the idiots logic behind either of these actions?
Because they view the police as part of the establishment enabling what they perceive as an 'attack on our values' or some such shite.
And this is why I thought the thread title more appropriate to discuss than the actual horrific events. What’s now transpiring is doing so much damage to our social cohesion. I despair.
They know who the 17 year old is in the area, the press have interviewed their old neighbours and so on, yes they cannot name the person, but nobody in that area believes it's al araki who arrived on a dinghy last year, they know it's a 17 year old born and bred in the UK, to Rwandan parents, you think the BNP, National Front, etc cared much about the false flags on the internet when they knew the realiy?!
.... and this person is a multiple child killer.
Attacking the Police is unacceptable, as those did at Manchester airport and now it seems in Southport.
you think the BNP, National Front, etc cared much about the false flags on the internet when they knew the realiy?!
It's the false flags that gave them the excuse.