Avoiding plastics - is there any point?

It certainly feels like a pointless exercise a lot of the time. 

Pointless? No. Consumer choices shift awareness when you talk about them like this.

Making a big difference? No.

Chance to make some difference later this year with voting though!

However, I draw the line at paper straws. Useless.

I often ponder the same.  But I guess if everyone followed your example, it would make a difference.  One of the main reasons the average household has so much waste is the amount of difficult to avoid packaging.  To really tackle the issue we will probably continue to need more legislation and rules… which the industry and the anti woke brigade will resist.  Whilst I don’t think personal action will solve the problems alone, I think you are doing the right thing. 

I think you are doing well OP and I applaud your efforts.

as mentioned, if more people took the same stance, the world would be a better place.

so please don’t give up hope. It does make a difference and you are a shining example of what great choices we can all make.

Anyone else think along these lines and care to share your thoughts?

Yes. I go to the local Zero Packaging shop (on foot!) quite often.  And as I'm stuffing as many loose bog roll into my undyed cotton tote bag as I can manage, I think of my mate who took 152 flights and drove 40,000 miles last year, and I do wonder what's the ****ing point.

But I still keep doing it.

Have to admit that due to inflation my purchasing habits for food/household stuff has changed from previously considered choices. Currently have one or two bees in my bonnet so may well resurrect the SaveThePlanetTrackWorld (?) thread in order to hear what changes folk have made since, what works, what doesn't and generally share ideas.

Yes, please resurrect the save the planet thread. As a 63 year old that was into all this when my children were young (now 38 &35), I lost my way 10 years ago as I too thought “what’s the point” . However, I don’t fly or go on cruises (important), don’t do many miles in vehicles  and look after my garden for wildlife (I feel a thread coming on), but, if we share tips and encouragement it would help.

My experience is that lots of folk choose to make one or two changes for the environment. If you're doing nothing else, then carry on with the plastic avoidance. Or maybe consider something more easy to do that, overall, makes just as much difference. My personal fight at the moment is mostly about reducing travel, or at least making better travel choices. 

Having this discussion with the wife recently. We've made a lot of changes, some of which are making our lives a bit worse and in reality making zero difference in the big picture. I think there is a degree of "woke virtue-signalling Guardian-reading lefty stuff" in it; Carrying on our very wasteful western lifestyle while claiming to do our bit. I've been looking at other changes that in my mind are more sustainable than replacing one thing with another slightly less bad thing.

Yes there is but don't beat yourself up about slips is where I think we're at.
I our house we've now gone 3 1/2 years refilling the household soap bottles (had to buy a couple as the pumps die eventually) but at the rate we get through the stuff (a least one a week with the excessive amounts kids use) that must be getting on for a wheelie bin full of plastic not used! Before then there was no local refil shop.
So yes individual actions do make a difference and the more refilling of containers the more pressure for shops to provide that service and it can become a virtuous circle of that being the norm and the easiest thing to do.
We've also started separating plastic film, bags and wrapping from the supermarket as most supermarkets now accept it for recycling. The volume not going in the landfill bin is significant.
There is nothing perfect but small changes that you can stick to are still changes.

I agree, at times it may feel pointless, but small changes can make a difference if enough people make them.

re transport: i drive a bus, which averages 9.3-9.4mpg, so iirc, I only need 12* pax minimum at any given point in the day to beat even economical cars for fuel and co2, therefore if you’re nipping into town and public transport is possible please use it. <br />*I practically never have less than 12 pax. <br />I do long distance work, (megabus) a town bus will be somewhere between 6-8mpg. So will need more passengers to balance it out. 

re transport: i drive a bus, which averages 9.3-9.4mpg, so iirc, I only need 12* pax minimum at any given point in the day to beat even economical cars for fuel and co2

I am very much pro-bus and public transport, but this isn't quite accurate because busses often travel further than you would if you were driving.  The benefits of PT are much greater than simply carbon, but this is interesting nonetheless.

And we now have electric busses so even better.

Gave up on bamboo tooth brushes as I think I'm slightly allergic to them, persisted for about two years mind!

I do try to minimise plastic use, but no longer beat myself up too badly over it. We need to chance corporations not feel guilty using the stuff they push on us.

Consumer action can work, but not quickly enough IMHO...

Don’t give up! Plastic is utter shite. If companies were made to be responsible for disposing of their products before they make them they wouldn’t churn out the crap they do.

I think the UK is more plasticy than France- much more cardboard packaging and beer at gigs and fetes is in reusable ‘glasses’ here. This translates into us putting out fewer bin bags which is easier on the bin lorry etc not just landfill/recycling plants.

Please contribute:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/savetheplanettrackworld/page/8/

We're trying to do this too. I say trying as if you ever buy from a supermarket then most products are packaged in plastic.

Until it becomes financially viable and beneficial for the majority of people then plastic will reign supreme. But we can all contribute to buying plastic free products, if we can afford, and eventually the costs will reduce.

Manufacturers need to be held responsible to ensure any change happens.

Ultimately the best way to reduce waste is to use less.

I do my bit, but on my street about only ~30% of people bother to put thier recycling out in the designated containers.. the rest just chuck everything into the standard black wheely bins, so it feels like a loosing battle.

I'll keep doing it, and I'll keep trying to buy products with 'eco-packaging' - my card/paper bin and my plastic & glass bins are far more full than my non recyclable 'land-fill' bin, I think I only have to put my big black landfill bin out about once per quarter, rather than every two weeks for collection.

But people are lazy, so it feels a bit pointless.

Yes. I go to the local Zero Packaging shop (on foot!) quite often.

We used to and then it closed and then the other one a couple more miles further away closed as they weren't economically viable.and we gave up as there wasn't another option.  😞😞😞

OP I take the view that if it's functionally good enough then I will go down the non plastic route even if a little spendier.

Gave up on bamboo toothbrushes though.  Teeth never seemed as clean and went back to an electric thingy.

I think of my mate who took 152 flights and drove 40,000 miles last year, and I do wonder what’s the **** point.

This is why at domestic product level I'm probably more concerned about plastic waste in the natural environment than the actual oil consumption in plastics production.

I don't know how many plastic bags/toothbrushes you get from a gallon of petrol/diesel/aviation gas equivalent but when you look at some people's lifestyle and fossil energy use (as above) it kind of suggests to me that if we want to make a meaningful difference it isn't coming from cling film vs. wax paper at home.  Before anyone says we can do both I completely agree and refer you to my opening comments 😉

We recycle as much as we can and avoid single-use plastics as much as possible. Lucky enough to live on an island and regularly walk the coast and beaches - the worst culprits for plastic pollution are builders, farmers and fishing folk. The builders and farmers seem to think that leaving plastic pallet wrap and bags to blow in the wind is a good way of disposing of it, and walk the beaches here and 90% of the man-made waste is discarded fishing nets. Until we have environmental protection laws with bigger disincentives I can’t see anything changing in my lifetime.

It depends what you want to achieve. By most measures plastic packaging will normally be environmentally better than cardboard as plastics don’t require as much energy or water to produce. There are numerous analyses available on the web, and they all vary slightly based on the inputs. However there is some discussion in this guardian article (it’s old, but the fundamentals haven’t changed) https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2010/mar/31/plastics-cardboard

The one place that plastic is worse, of course, is that the waste doesn’t break down, so makes a mess if not disposed of responsibly. There is a bit of concern there as cash strapped councils may not always ensure that their decoying contractors are doing what they say, leading to waste being irresponsibly dumped.

where I try and avoid plastic packaging is in direct contact with food due to the issues with chemicals leaching into the food, but that is very hard to achieve for everything.

No point in doing anything as far too late to worry about it. We are now 100% into dealing with the issues man has caused so that should be the focus, i.e. flooding is now going to be more regular so deal with than rather than trying to stop it raining more by buying an electric car.

We try to be good with the following:

Smol products 

recycle everything - including all soft plastics 

community fridge - clothes and food to reduce waste/landfill.

I recognise our meagre efforts make zero impact, especially obvious as I work in manufacturing and the colossal plastic consumption and waste is utterly depressing.

Recent business trips to China and Japan really drove home how far we have to go.

Single use plastic crockery/cutlery was rife in Japan, wrapped in plastic film, was especially depressing. EVERYTHING was wrapped in plastic and utterly pointless.

Reading this thread whilst watching Planet Earth III with my young kids (5 & 8) has made me very sad indeed.

Difficult one.

Without governments making changes all over the world, stuff like this isn't going to change enough.

Do what you are comfortable with.

Doing every tiny bit you can helps, I don’t agree with the “**** it, we’re all in now” approach to hasten the planets demise.  <br /><br />

Re straws, you can buy a pack of 10 plastic straws which can be washed and re used.  We use them repeatedly at home and keep some in the car if ever needed for a takeaway / fast food meal.  We keep the provided for paper straws and recycle them immediately when home.  

Every little helps, nothing is pointless. I used to work in an industry where they had a monetary value on 0.1% protein in the product and also for moisture content. It wasn't much but in 1000's of tonnes of production annually it all added up.

We need to apply that sort of focus to our lives. Not adding your effort to the cause is defeatist.

No point in doing anything as far too late to worry about it. We are now 100% into dealing with the issues man has caused so that should be the focus, i.e. flooding is now going to be more regular so deal with than rather than trying to stop it raining more by buying an electric car.

There are two separate issues thought.  There's the climate change issue caused by greenhouse gasses and we may be too far along to stop that although we can still slow down the effects.

The plastic issue is more to do with pollution. So much plastic ends up in the sea or blowing around the countryside getting into ecosystems and our food.  See last nights Countryfile with seals getting aerobee frisbees and plastic gaskets caught over their necks leading to horrific injuries and deaths. We absolutely can do something about that which makes a real difference.

However, I draw the line at paper straws. Useless.

I draw the line at straws. I'm not bed bound.

Consumer pressure does work.

I work for a large company that supplies retail chains. The chains stipulate our package should not contain certain things, to the point that all our new product is now in fully recyclable packaging (usually carton) where it would have been in a plastic blister.

Without this customer pressure the company would use the best material for the job, best often being cheapest as well as most durable, which was commonly plastic for our application. But if it doesn't sell it's not the best.

Keep at it.

Re straws, you can buy a pack of 10 plastic straws which can be washed and re used.  We use them repeatedly at home and keep some in the car if ever needed for a takeaway / fast food meal.  We keep the provided for paper straws and recycle them immediately when home.  

But you are still buying plastic straws which ultimately end up as unwanted plastic.  Just don't use straws at all, a much simpler and better solution if you care about these things.

We’ve also started separating plastic film, bags and wrapping from the supermarket as most supermarkets now accept it for recycling

We do as well, usually save up a carrier bag full before we drop it off - it's shocking how small the collection point is at the supermarket - shows how few people must also do it 😕

I am probably not thought of as one of the most eco-conscious people on this forum, despite owning a Nissan Leaf but here is my tuppence worth.

Using a wooden spoon instead of a plastic one won't save the planet but it will help influence peoples thoughts and raise awareness which might lead to change. 'Single Use Plastic' didn't really even exist as a term 10 years ago but now most people are aware of it, and most agree it is wrong. That was achieved one wooden spoon at a time.

Virtue signalling leftie bla, blah, blah can be both good and bad. If it improves peoples behaviour then, regardless of whether the have the same motivation as you, it is probably a good thing. If it encourages them to drive their 7 seat 2.5 ton SUV half a mile down the road just to drop 2 wine bottles in recycling then it is possibly counter productive.

I try to take a balanced approach. I am not wracked with guilt for my environmental impact but I do try to avoid unnecessary waste. I like cars and have several but they are all older cars that I mostly maintain and repair myself rather than buying new ones regularly. They already existed and I only drive one at and one time so there is no additional burden caused by this. I like bicycles but once I have bought a bike I tend to keep it until it gets broken or stolen (or both). Neither of these activities are necessary and both impact the environment but less so that the activities of others, such as people who deliberately have children.

If you want to minimise your impact on the planet, don't have children. There are more than enough people on the planet so more are completely unnecessary and serve no purpose other than inflicting environmental damage on the planet. That is a mildly provocative statement, I know, but also with enough of the truth to hurt. Anyway, I just thought I would share - always interesting to see how people react when I leave myself so open to attack.

I try to be environmentally aware in most aspects of my life. Then you look at what damage and resources are being used in Putin's war on Ukraine, it makes you feel like your are p1ssing in the wind.

Makes a difference - probably not.

Pointless - certainly not.

Consumer pressure and awareness will drive the markets towards plastic free packaging and such like.

OP I’m in complete agreement. It all amounts to nothing in the global scheme of things. I’m sure it makes people feel better but does it move the dial. Not one bit. Just look at things like aircraft and container ship tracking websites to see how much stuff is being moved around the planet constantly. Just look at the folly that are EVs that no one can show that they are any greener that a diesel car over thier whole life.  

Makes mental note to inform my kids/nephew who work in the NHS not to repair worldclassaccident when he next appears at their door, as according to him they shouldn't exist.

Just look at things like aircraft and container ship tracking websites to see how much stuff is being moved around the planet constantly.

Stuff will always need to be moved around. Far better that the stuff being moved is biodegradable or recycleable.

The recycling of soft plastics by supermarkets wouldn't have happened if people hadn't pushed for it.

Our recycling bin is full every fortnight. Our regular waste bin is barely a third full, often a quarter full.

the UK and the west outsources its polution , it needs a global strategy that is seen for its benefit as opposed its cash generation iniatives, greed and corruption rule.

i recycle, but i wonder why my local council burn waste.

Stuff will always need to be moved around. Far better that the stuff being moved is biodegradable or recycleable.<br /><br />

agreed but the impact of moving it is huge and if reducing consumption, which is the only real answer, then it doesn’t really make much difference if it’s recycled or not

Hey there,

me too movement. We have done loads to reduce the plastic use, but it feels like they should do what France did quite a few years ago now and stop the super markets from using so much, because it get impossible to remove more. I do use Butchers and Greengocer to cut the veg and meat plastic though, but in cost conscious Britain it gets to the point that the government must be more encouraging to the super markets. This is because my local butcher doesn't use single use plastics nor my green grocer but the super markets still do!

JeZ

Makes mental note to inform my kids/nephew who work in the NHS not to repair worldclassaccident when he next appears at their door, as according to him they shouldn’t exist.

I always find people who point out there are too many people about are always keener to nominate others and their families for non-existence than themselves and their own 🙂

Some countries are facing an incredible drop in birth rate at the moment - South Korea is one of the starker examples. One of the factors that drives birth rate down surprisingly is wealth and the role wealth plays in making everything expensive - housing, eduction, maternity leave and so on, rather than just being able to feed a mouth. We've had a weird blip in our own birthrate as generationally women entered the workplace and consiquently had children later. My parents had their children quite unusually late compared to their peers - in their mid to late 20s - partly because my mum has always worked and had both porents had been in education/training before they started work, where as my generation has tended to wait until the brink of their 40s - until the had worked enough to be able to afford a career break for children.

As a contrast in birth rate terms I had 8 great grand parents and on my line of the family tree I'm one of 78 great grandchildren. I come from a family line where large families where a tool for survival rather than a luxury or burden - my ancestors were all either agricultural and industrial labourers and children could be sent out to work and your grandchildren's labour were your pension, if you lived that long.

"South Korea currently has a total fertility rate of 0.81. For every 100 South Korean great-grandparents, there will be 6.6 great-grandkids." Thats not not 6.6 per great-grandparent - that 6.6 in total

South Korea's fertility rate is expected to fall below 0.7 soon - in the capital its already currently 0.57. Thats going to leave an aging population with no workforce not to support them but to just run keep the country running.

Just to maintain a population the fertility rate needs to be 2.1, The uk's its 1.56 and the majority of new mothers in the uk are also between 30 and 45

It depends which bit of the environment you priorities. Compared to most people on here, I'm an environmental head banger and am one of the most committed of my friends in terms of reducing my environmental impact. However, to me, CO2 emissions and climate change is the number 1 priority. If that's the case and something you're buying must come in packaging, it's better for that packaging to be plastic than paper or metal - the carbon footprint of plastic is lower throughout its lifecycle.

If your priority is saving the oceans or reducing litter then paper is better - but there won't be any ocean life to save or people to produce litter if you don't do something about climate change first. It'd be better for you to minimise or remove your driving, take public transport or cycle where you can, get rid of your dog, change to an ethical bank and pension fund (the impact of that can be huge) and buy as little as you can.

Just to clarify - not saying they shouldn't exist, just that if their parents wanted to have less environmental impact then they shouldn't have brought them into existence. Tell their parents not to repair me, the kids are just carrying the burden of the generation before. 🙂

@munrobiker - you'll have looked into this more than I have, so where does meat consumption sit in that list of climate friendly choices? I've reduced mine a little and tend to favour poultry over red meat, which I believe to be slightly better (though I'm also partial to a bit of local venison).

Just to maintain a population the fertility rate needs to be 2.1, The uk’s its 1.56 and the majority of new mothers in the uk are also between 30 and 45<br /><br />

Why from an environmental point of view is maintaining the population levels and fertility important? From an environmental point of view a lower fertility rate and population would be better. I accept that it will create the need to societies to change as there are a disproportionate number of elderly whilst it’s dropping. But if protecting the planet is the priority then its something that should be encouraged and a solution found.

@scotroutes - it's pretty important but I think a harder sell for a lot of people. The best thing is to be vegan, failing that being vegan before 6pm (even if you're eating meat for dinner), failing that being vegetarian and at the bottom of the pile is meat eating. But reducing the amount of meat you eat, and the amount of dairy you consume, will make a big difference if you can come to terms with it in your lifestyle.

so where does meat consumption sit in that list of climate friendly choices? 

If the world just stopped eating beef it would make a huge difference.  That is to me a very simple solution and not difficult to do but do you see many countries in the world doing so, no didn't think so.

Another one here who's not entirely convinced. That plastic = bad in general, maybe, but not that me personally changing much will, well, change much. I recycle as much as possible and try to limit it but yeah... not convinced.

It's not like I live somewhere where it'll end up in the sea - here in Manchester all the non-recyclable waste is incinerated and generates electricity.

The whole subject is tricky anyway. Also: what does "environmentally friendly" mean? Less pollution & microplastics? Or less greenhouse gas emissions? Sometimes it's one or the other. Wasn't it Morrisons who changed all their bags for paper ones a while ago, and when it was pointed out that they are actually much more energy intensive to make than plastic said something like "yeah we know, but hey that's what customers asked for".

You can't get rid of all plastic anyway. Take cucumbers, which go bad in a couple of days on the shop shelf if not plastic wrapped. Just stop eating them?

Even recycling... I generally recycle soft plastics but it could well be that it's better to bin them. If I bin them, they go 30 miles away and get burnt to generate electricity. If I recycle them, they get shipped around the country and then melted down and made into something else in a very energy intensive process. Either that, or shipped across Europe and then burned for energy... or just dumped somewhere on a Turkish beach. Who knows.

it’s better for that packaging to be plastic than paper or metal – the carbon footprint of plastic is lower throughout its lifecycle.

Do you have a reference for that? (I am asking for information, not saying "link or it didn't happen" )

Smol products

I see these are available in supermarkets now. Before when they were delivered by post they were (in my view) just a virtue signalling product..... as for a true impact everyone would have to use them and then everyone would be getting them delivered in the post*.

Also the detergent capsule concept, is it actually better than a bottle of liquid or (cardboard) box of powder?

*extra deliveries/journeys, packaging etc. compared to supermarket shopping or delivery

@DrJ - this is the most thorough reliable link I could find -

https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-offsets-credits/carbon-ecological-footprint-calculators/carbon-footprint-of-paper-vs-plastic/

This is also informative and from a good source, but doesn't have figures-

https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/expert/expert-article/#:~:text=The%20carbon%20footprint%E2%80%94%20that%20is,you%20would%20go%20with%20plastic.

I reached the same conclusion as ossify. Soft plastics and other things that aren't accepted with the plastics collected by the council go in the bin for local incineration to be turned into energy. This (to me) makes more sense than it being shipped to the other side of the world and incinerated of put into landfill. Maybe I'm wrong and our outsourced recycling is actually less harmful than the local option.

Used to recycle it all religiously but seeing the Hugh fearnley wittingstall program showing what happened to it changed my habits.

From an environmental point of view a lower fertility rate and population would be better.

Maybe in time, but lots of countries will have pretty unbalanced populations from mid-century onwards, with a massive increase in older people who use more heating, often live alone in multi occupancy homes, are less mobile so need transport, more care which is expensive and aren't contributing to an economy.

I think you are doing well OP and I applaud your efforts.

as mentioned, if more people took the same stance, the world would be a better place.

so please don’t give up hope. It does make a difference and you are a shining example of what great choices we can all make.

I'm concerned that the "plastics are bad" mantra means there's a simple bit of greenwashing for people who want to make an "eco" claim.   The alternatives may not actually be better.  Bamboo sounds good - but its been shipped around the world, was it grown somewhere at the expense of wildlife habitat? does its cultivation involve the use of fertilisers, pesticides etc? What's the waste from cutting bamboo to handle shapes rather than moulding plastic with near zero excess?  Presumably the bristles are still nylon or similar? does a decomposing bamboo brush actually release loads of bristles into the environment?  Presumably they don't go into composting but rather into landfill (where it may actually decompose into methane which is a greenhouse gas?).  The problem with plastics was never really the material it was the disposal - both consumer "carelessness" and waste managers "recklessness".  Plastic straws kill turtles - but only if they end up in the sea.  The vast majority of those straws don't get there from beachgoers.

You can apply the same logic to a lot of plastic - stuff like vegetables wrapped in plastic seems pointless, but someone chose to spend that money so there must be a reason.  Possibly because it increases the shelf life - will food waste increase if you simply remove it.  Everyone knows plastic bottles are bad right - but glass takes more energy to make it, weighs more (so requires more energy to ship) and is fragile.  Perhaps tetrapack style cardboards are better?  But they are generally much harder to recycle than plastic bottles.  None of it is quite as clear cut as plastic is bad; the public can't/won't evaluate the options which means we fall into a few high profile "campaigns" and some "greenwashing"...

Some countries are facing an incredible drop in birth rate at the moment – South Korea is one of the starker examples. One of the factors that drives birth rate down surprisingly is wealth and the role wealth plays in making everything expensive – housing, eduction, maternity leave and so on, rather than just being able to feed a mouth.

I strayed onto a podcast about this recently.  South Korea and Japan both have problematic birth rates, they were not suggesting it was a wealth issue at all.  Rather they were saying it was very much a cultural one - whilst many other countries have moved into a society where children outside marriage is not at all uncommon, in those two countries it is very rare for people to have children out of wedlock BUT actually getting married has become less popular.   Culturally they still have a society where to a large extent women make a choice of family or career, don't conflate career and wealth.  BUT the analysis on that podcast was (if I remember rightly - I was driving and it autoplayed so not actually sure what it was to go and check!) that this wasn't just a "women" issue, there were many men choosing not to get married and accordingly keeping out the parenthood cycle.

My Aldi recycles film and plastics.

I try and recycle as much as I can and although it feels like small fry, it's the collective action if we have lots of us doing it

in Bury we have 4 wheely bins and the black bin goes out every 3rd week, the paper and plastic/glass on the other weeks (garden bin fortnightly, thankful that bury council send an email reminder of which to put out!) - this is better that a weekly bin that would have been the case historically, and we've been part of bury council for 15yrs now.. that adds up especially if you do stretchy plastic at Morrisons

I think it is worth it - the principle to hold is a mental benefit on the whole

And yes, driving less, fewer holidays are massive hits, every bus ride, bike ride is a massive win

My Aldi recycles film and plastics.

Same here... and most (all?) bigger supermarkets do. But it's what they actually do with it is the issue. There isn't someone sitting in the back room weaving new bags out of it!

Generally for the supermarkets, recycle means give it to a third party who "says" they recycle, then forget about it.

Bamboo sounds good

Sometimes it isn't

It's clear to me that tighter and stricter rules are needed, especially if something is claimed to be green or eco. Also green/eco/carbon-free/climate friendly gets conflated with healthier/safer. Electric cars are not actually very "green", but are a lot better for people in terms of local air pollution.

No point in doing anything as far too late to worry about it. We are now 100% into dealing with the issues man has caused so that should be the focus, i.e. flooding is now going to be more regular so deal with than rather than trying to stop it raining more by buying an electric car.

It will be far, far cheaper to address the root cause than the effects.

For population control, how about everyone gets a lottery ticket and every month a group of lucky winners get moved on to live in 'paradise' which is this great place that normal people don't get to visit. The randomness of an enforced lottery would help keep population profiles balanced and any regional anomalies could be resolved by 'adjusting the randomness' of tickets in that area. Keep this up until we drop the global population to the required environmentally balanced level.

Of course, I would need an exemption from the lottery, just so I can oversee the fairness of it all.

Failing that let Putin & Trump (or the Chinese, the Koreans or whichever group you assume have big =weapons and a wobbly view of survival) kick off with the big hot bombs and reduce the population significantly in a short time and also reduce the means of production of 'stuff' to rubble. Not sure that promising a nuclear war for environmental purposes will get anyone elected though.

It will be far, far cheaper to address the root cause than the effects.

Yes, but that needs a massive collective effort and political will. Simply not not going to happen anytime soon. In the shorter term people will be displaced and will die from things we can do something about far more easily (but not easily).

Its not an either/or situation, though.

Just to clarify – not saying they shouldn’t exist, just that if their parents wanted to have less environmental impact then they shouldn’t have brought them into existence.

Well I've already told my kids that I'd like c & h for my 80th birthday & if that doesn't do the trick a sea kayak for my 81st..

My job is about the environment and climate change and in answer to the original question, I borrow a slogan from Tesco; "every little helps".

In terms of the big picture, it is rather complex, highlighting the inability of political systems to deal with anything long term. My own view is that we need more climate related catastrophies before the political will is there, but my fear is that those catastrophes could escalate very quickly into full blown global food and water crisises, which will generate a completely different set of political priorities (including war).....

bought the "eco, big pack" of baby bubble bath, only to find that instead of two recyleable plastic bottles, its one, larger, wholly un-recylable tetrapack.

Plastics are not bad. Plastics are great. a group of absoloute miracle materials, light, hard wearing , waterproof, easy to shape into anything you can imagine and cheap too.  I just think we (manafacturers, producers, and consumers) dont give nearly enough thought to end of life plan for all our stuff. Is it better to use 10 times more plastic in a bottle, than you would in a card/foil/plastic laminate, if you can recycle it at the end of it life?

It will be far, far cheaper to address the root cause than the effects.

It is far, far too late to be dealing with root cause as the effect has already happened whilst government/countries around the world sat and watched.

Fossil fuel dependence will stop naturally when it runs out but beef eating probably won't.  Who do you think is going to make a difference big enough on any continued effects?

This is the "why aren't you out catching real criminals" argument isn't it. It's wooly logic to conclude that we should ignore small stuff because big stuff exists.

Will your recyclable toothbrush change the world? In isolation, of course it won't. But that's not really what it's about, it's about making a lifestyle change and giving some consideration towards your actions. What's an avalanche if not a lot of snowflakes?

It’s wooly logic to conclude that we should ignore small stuff because big stuff exists.

Not really, unless you think countries/governments will ever start to tackle the big stuff.  I don't think they ever will so it is a case of tackling the effects but unfortunately those same governments are responsible for that too, so pretty ****ed aren't we.  Still, keep those teeth clean with that recyclable toothbrush of yours.

None of it is quite as clear cut as plastic is bad; the public can’t/won’t evaluate the options which means we fall into a few high profile “campaigns” and some “greenwashing”…

Arguably, the public shouldn't have to. Governments, manufacturers, recycling companies etc should be trusted to provide sound advice and take the choice away from the great unwashed. Of course, "should" is doing some heavy lifting here...

It’s wooly logic to conclude that we should ignore small stuff because big stuff exists.

In terms of not doing anything as an individual when businesses cause so much trouble then yes, you're right. Changes by the individual will hopefully, eventually, force business and governments to change. Less so if we're talking about doing fiddly little things when there's lower hanging fruit.

Changing your bank account to one with Triodos for example will save more CO2 than not flying to the US and back twice (or at least for me, with my relatively paltry savings, it does). And you won't notice any difference in your day to day life. I tried two bamboo toothbrushes and both cut my mouth. So I gave up.

Maybe in time, but lots of countries will have pretty unbalanced populations from mid-century onwards, with a massive increase in older people who use more heating, often live alone in multi occupancy homes, are less mobile so need transport, more care which is expensive and aren’t contributing to an economy.

i agree with your point but your solution is the same old kick it down the road as it might be easier to fix then.

Arguably, the public shouldn’t have to. Governments, manufacturers, recycling companies etc should be trusted to provide sound advice and take the choice away from the great unwashed. Of course, “should” is doing some heavy lifting here…

Everyone of those has some vested interest or is not that smart and liable to be lobbied.  I don’t even know that academics could come up with an eco score that they could all agree on for one thing like drinks packaging: glass, plastic, waterproof card, aluminium can, steel can etc - that considers the original production impact, recycling/reuse impacts, long term disposal, transport impact, product waste/damage, etc   Then if you could agree it for say drinks would it apply to cleaning materials? Or to other products in different form factors.

I don't know about the other supermarkets but Tesco made quite a big thing about soft plastic recycling when they started doing it. Apparently they have a deal with a firm in Derbyshire that washes the plastic and turns it into bin bags and the like. Seems a logical recycling step to me.
https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/tesco-and-berry-strike-soft-plastics-recycling-deal/
I'd also note that although I haven't been to Tesco for a while they used to just use one of those 2 metre tall steel cage trolleys for collecting the stuff so no fancy plastic bin with a too small post box and being a standard delivery trolley will presumably go round the Tesco delivery system for years. Seemed a sensible and sustainable approach.
Anyhow reduce, reuse, recycle still applies. A bit more of each of those is a bit more so we should try not to lose heart and try to mainly improve, even though we inevitably lapse quite often.

I don’t think they ever will so it is a case of tackling the effects but unfortunately those same governments are responsible for that too, so pretty **** aren’t we. Still, keep those teeth clean with that recyclable toothbrush of yours.

So what's the alternative? Gallic shrug and leave it for our grandkids to worry about?

On the main road round the corner from me, the pavement is absolutely covered in cigarette butts discarded mostly by the shops' staff and patrons. At some point someone must have dropped the first one, probably thinking "what does it matter, it's only one cigarette butt." Then more people do it and there's a tipping point where the thinking becomes "what does it matter, it's only one more cigarette butt amongst loads." Possibly with a side order of "the place is a tip, why doesn't the council sweep the streets?" Monkey see monkey do, all of a sudden antisocial behaviour is normalised and it's somehow someone else's problem to deal with.

So yes, I might have a virtue-signalling toothbrush (I don't, it sounds grim TBH), but there's 67 million people in the UK and many of them have teeth.

Tesco made quite a big thing about soft plastic recycling when they started doing it

Tesco likes spouting greenwashed codswallop.

25-30 tons per month is 360 tons per year. Tesco say they've reduce plastic packaging so far by 4500+ tons per year. Regardless of how they achieved this, and how good this might be, it goes to show that any fancy announcements about 360 tons is pretty meaningless.

https://archive.is/R3KfY

That said, there is a bit more info here: https://www.tescoplc.com/sustainability/planet/packaging-and-plastic

If you can believe them.

/cynic

I work in the plastic injection moulding industry and for us it works out cheaper to send waste product to landfill, than to recycling. We do try and reuse what we can  (by regrinding) but a lot of the plastics properties change once moulded once.

Personally at home we recycle everything that's possible, buy most of our meat, eggs and vegetables from within a three mile radius.

Unfortunately I also have to travel 80 miles a day to work and back, though I do usually run a car into the ground and it's not worth anything.

I do agree that if everyone did a little bit it would add up to a large amount. Think more needs to be done on educating the population.

I work in the plastic injection moulding industry and for us it works out cheaper to send waste product to landfill, than to recycling

And this is because the financial costs don't account for all of the impacts of the waste product. Likewise with many other impacts of the way we live day to day. And it has been so ever since people started shitting in rivers so it would wash downstream from their drinking water.

So what’s the alternative?

There isn't an alternative that will make any noticeable impact which is why I don't think there is any point. The world is run by people who don't give a shit and they are elected by people who also don't have it as a priority.

If enough people cared the Green Party would have a lot more presence in government as they are the only party that would even start to really address anything but they have been in pretty much same position for as long as I can remember while a party like Reform comes along and is now polling ahead of them.

So yeah, we can do what we want but we are just moving those deckchairs around. Notice I said we because I actually do care (recyle, have low carbon footprint etc,.) but I still think it is pointless.