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can’t insulate a house you don’t own, the ones near me that do it are in houses still owened by the council. also there is no way to get that amount of insulation in a mid fifties block built house without losing a lot of space.
That's rubbish, you can easily insulate on the outside and roof, the Germans proved this with the 3 litre house.
https://neopor.basf.us/resources/case-studies/3-liter-home
https://www.kunststoffe.de/en/_storage/asset/580745/storage/master/file/6074054/download/The%20Three-litre%20House.pdf
Councils round here have been adding external insulation to housing stock all over the place, most of it paid for by energy commitment funds. I'd suggest your council needs to up their game.
how much would all that cost though.
the council here has just spent loads of money on there houses around me, reslating and redashing them, as usual for councils they didn't touch the stacks while they had scafold up which are all cracked and in need of repair
My alternative would be to burn more gas – rather than the waste products of industry and local gardeners – surely burning local waste wood is a good idea??
Using the wood is a good idea, but individuals each burning it in their homes isn't. A Biomass plant that produces electricity from it is a better idea. There's only one place where the pollution needs to be controlled (the Biomass plant) and it doesn't depend on the competency of individuals (with their stoves) to control it instead.
Electric heating is the future. I think wood burning will go soon, unless you have a very good reason to burn wood for your main heating source. Gas will follow soon enough though. However UK governments and administrations are very bad at enabling changes like this, in this case electricity prices will need to drop, or be subsidised for heating purposes, grants will need to be given for new heating etc.
Here's an interesting example. The houses on our street were built in 2015 and are on mains gas and are cheap to heat as they are well insulated.
Four doors down our neighbour built a single story extension onto the rear of their house and into this extension they put a wood burner. The burner is therefore completely cosmetic. It won't heat any of the rest of the house, only the small extension. This morning I noticed smoke coming from the chimney for the first time. I guess the stove isn't used that often. The owner would have been able to install it under permitted development. I think that they should have had to apply for planning permission for it, given the age of the house, them being on mains gas and them being in a supposed smoke-free* zone.
*Which literally means just that, no smoke. Fine particulates are ok.
in this case electricity prices will need to drop
While I wholeheartedly agree with this. Where's the mechanism or indeed the incentive for this.
Uk is not backfilling aging infrastructure fast enough as it is.
I agree with your statement so much I've put my money where my mouth is an having solar installed and have my name down for a battery install to allow this to be allowable in the future to ditch both oil and wood in a manageable fashion in my life time. .....at current rates and % increases you'd be 3/4 mental to go fully electric in all but a passive haus
Uk is not backfilling aging infrastructure fast enough as it is.
Inter-country electricity is going to be one answer. I briefly worked doing environmental impact assessments (noise being my speciality). One project I was involved in was an undersea electricity connector from Scotland to Norway. Power would go both ways. Wind power from Scotland and Hydro from Norway. Such connectors exist elsewhere, e.g. with France.
However this ran into issues as it was a private venture and Norway didn't like vital infrastructure being in the hands of a private company.... which makes sense and highlights how the UK operates. The state never gets its hands dirty, it's all done by incentivising and outsourcing. This will never get things right, is slow and cannot deal with any nuances. E.g.
We owned a flat. It was in a horrible concrete building that had cavity walls, but lots and lots of cold bridges. It was assessed for an insulation grant and external cladding was recommended..... then along comes the appointed installer and they put in cavity wall insulation.. completely the wrong thing. We were moving anyway so let it be, as it was an extra tick on the home report (another example!)
how much would all that cost though.
It's in the report but it's not an insurmountable sum. In fact the payback time was pretty quick IIRC.
So to sum up best practice (for those who simply have to do it)..
1.Only burn well seasoned dry wood
2.Make sure your house is well insulated so you don’t have to leave it on overnight
3.Minimise reloading so as to keep the doors shut, but be careful of overloading
4.Do not use wood burners in urban areas
Couple more:
5.build your fire with big logs at the bottom (going to try this)
6.warm the flue by sticking a page of burning paper up it pre lighting (works well for me)
7. Try and source locally produced wood, sustainably felled, or waste, not stuff shipped in from Europe.
8. Nothing is perfect, but make a choice and do the best you can
Nothing is perfect, but make a choice and do the best you can
This again and again.
6. - going to try that. Stove has been struggling to get going a bit for the last week or so. Could be it needs a sweep (set ordered for a diy job) or it could be that it's not got above -2 outside for the last week.
7. - that's my reasoning behind burning mostly softwood. Very little commercial hard firewood here (highlands) that is not being imported from Sweden. Seems to tip the balance environmentally too much towards not great.
Just thought, what effect on particulates might different woods have? Eh a resinous pine Vs a dense hardwood. They burn quite differently so I'd imagine it could be quite different.
9. Which balances with 3, reload while you have a hot bed of coals big enough to heat the new fuel and achieve a 'clean' burn quickly
And bacon, that too shortens your life
I've never heard a rasher statement!
On the question of different woods the main thing is to have a stove that is intended to burn the type of wood you use. Scandanavian stoves such as Jotul with their double combustion design and high air flow allow burning pine at high temperature which is not only good for air quality but means you won't have a chimney dripping with kreosote and tar. Beach and birch will burn clean in almost any stove.
The latest research shows that domestic wood burning is now the main source of UK particulate air pollution, and wood burners triple the amount of particulate pollution inside homes.
Light hearted comment edited out cause life's too short.
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
It's the guardian what do you expect?
It’s the guardian what do you expect?
A summary of the research with links to the relevant articles for those who wish to get into the details. Which is what they've done.
Still, I expect folk will continue to kid themselves that their stove couldn't possibly be contributing to the problem.
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
Isn't that like trying to split car pollution figures into sectors for those that drive like a little old lady and those that 'make progress'.
For every person using perfect seasoned logs there will be loads chucking any old shite in them as long as it burns.
Isn’t that like trying to split car pollution figures into sectors for those that drive like a little old lady and those that ‘make progress’.
Well yes, they do that (although not as you describe, but similar) - VED penalises vehicles with higher emissions and people can make informed choices about their purchase.
Still, I expect folk will continue to kid themselves that their stove couldn’t possibly be contributing to the problem.
Well no, it isn't like that though is it. The point being that someone with a new and efficient stove using well seasoned fuel is not contributing as much as someone burning fence panels and fresh wood.
The point being that it isn't a case of having / not having a stove just as it isn't about having / not having a car, it's about having the information to make informed decisions.
and wood burners triple the amount of particulate pollution inside homes
Since the first article a few weeks back I've been looking at ours and everytime you open the door, you get a big gulp of smoke exit the wood burner into the room. The baffle at the top, which creates the secondary combustion chamber, directs smoke towards the front of the stove where it curls round the baffle and exits. This has the side effect of directing the exhaust towards the door. I can believe its dumping a load of PM10s etc into the room.
Well no, it isn’t like that though is it.
I believe it is. "Not contributing as much" is little more than an exercise in turd polishing.
It found almost half of those burning indoors were affluent and many chose a fire for aesthetic reasons, rather than heat.
This report is basically saying that for a large amount of wood burners the main utility is how they look rather providing heat.
The Car analogy would be buying a sportscar you don't need and driving it around in circles because you like the noise it makes.
Only in rural areas and the stoves should have the equivalent of the probe in the exhaust pipe MOT emissions test.
Probably a stop on new installations of them soon.
ie, not a ban, but regulated and phased out.
Since the first article a few weeks back I’ve been looking at ours and everytime you open the door, you get a big gulp of smoke exit the wood burner into the room.
What happens when you open the door a crack, then slowly open more and more to let the air flow react and redistribute?
“Not contributing as much” is little more than an exercise in turd polishing.
But without helpful information for users (like myself) it is difficult to make an informed decision because I know for a fact that my stove is efficient and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one. If I could easily find out how much (or little) compared to what is considered dangerous I may reconsider having it. Right now it is hard to find this level of information out other than knowing the obvious things like using well-seasoned wood (I do), operating the stove at a suitable temperature (I do), having adequate ventilation (I do). Am I at 1960s V12 Ford Mustang levels of emissions, 2020s 1.0T Ford Fiesta levels or somewhere in between?
If you want to monitor particulates there are cheap units on ebay. I bought this one: Air Quality Detector PM2.5 PM10 PM1.0 Detectors Portable Tester for Home Car and I've been using it in the workshop for dust. Seems to work, in that it goes up and down as I use various tools. Can't vouch for the accuracy but from a bit of youTube research they seem OK
What happens when you open the door a crack, then slowly open more and more to let the air flow react and redistribute?
It seems to release less if I let it fire at full gas before opening the door. Quite often all the air vents are at minimum and its cooling off when I open it to stick a fresh log on. In that scenario it burps the most soot. If I let if fire up for a few seconds beforehand, that seems to minimise it.
Although without a detector, it's all rather subjective.
I also notice that there's always a layer of ash on the mantlepiece.
I am half tempted to pull the tongue out, grind an inch off the front and stick it back in...
@nickjb
Ahh - I had no idea those were available. I shall be getting one. Thank you.
I also notice that there’s always a layer of ash on the mantlepiece.
We never really have a great deal of dust or signs of soot damage to walls/ceilings (despite it being used daily since late October even more than ever this year due to lockdown). Yes there is sometimes a little dust but nothing alarming.
interesting that the latest defra uk clean air pm2.5 research from december last year clealrly shows overall reduction in black soot pm 2.5, howver there is seasonal increas during winter, but the evidnece is not clear enough to link to single source as black soot pm2.5 also takes into account all industrial combustion and deisel particulate. interestingly there is also data within the report showing elevated nox levels tracking with the pm2.5 emission again linking to vehicle emission as a signoficant part of the emission. to claim that it is purely as a result of domestic solid fuel combustion is unfortunately not supported by the peer reviwed data. interestingly the seasonal variation can also be linked to weather conditons holding industrial emissions for longer rather than dispersion you see in the summer months and souces from mainland europe. its a really nice report showing all of tue errors estimates and assumptions. available as a free pdf.
@tazzymtb got a link for that?
The only DEFRA info that popped up when I did a quick Google directly contradicts what you seem to be saying. https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/02/21/government-takes-bold-action-to-cut-pollution-from-household-burning/ "With wood burning stoves and coal fires being the single largest source of the pollutant PM2.5 – emitting twice the contribution of industry and three times the contribution of road transport"
I'll stop using my wood burner when energy companies stop inflating their prices over winter.
I had no idea those were available.
But you just said in your previous post that you knew for a fact that your stove doesn't emit as much particulates. Either you know how much particulate it's pumping out or you don't.
I'm not trying to have a go here but this is how we got to diesel gate. Everyone took it in blind faith that everything was fine, they were told that it wasn't but ignored the evidence because it suited them until eventually a political authority (rather then actual scientists) bust it wide open.
I’ll stop using my wood burner when energy companies stop inflating their prices over winter.
Have you never heard of a fixed price tariff?
I'm not advocating banning them BTW, particulates are only a problem if you allow concentrations to build up. We should however be looking at where any why they are being burnt and addressing that.
We never really have a great deal of dust or signs of soot damage to walls/ceilings (despite it being used daily since late October even more than ever this year due to lockdown). Yes there is sometimes a little dust but nothing alarming.
This is us too. 10 cubic metres of wood has gone into the stove this winter and virtually no dust to speak of.
I too will look to get a meter though.
Broader point - environmentally we are still happy that sustainably managed wood burnt efficiently for heat is overall better than fossil fuels (in our case lpg)? Living very much in the countryside burning wood sourced locally (not shipped in from Sweden as it appears some local suppliers do) I have little concern about the particulate emissions through the chimney but it would only feel right to investigate the air quality inside the home too.
Footflaps - my stove behaves in the same way. I close vents right down then crack the door for 20 seconds, then slowly open to put a new log in. This minimises the smoke into the room but doesn't eliminate it. Never had it on other stoves so I was assuming it was because of the curved glass door.
Kinda related.
Say if you lived in an old house, with fireplaces in more or less every room. 7 I think.
Can you sensibly seal these up, e.g. remove the chimney stack completely? As much as I appreciate the novelty of hail falling in the kitchen as it did a couple of days ago, it’s bloody noisy in here when the wind is up.
I have exactly the same problem.
I don't see what we can do, except get rid of it, probably down to ceiling level, then insulate.
Pretty much that. Seal the stack at the top and make sure there is a ventilation route for the remaining parts.
People really have burners that beltch visable smoke into the room?
I don;t run mine fully shut off like you are doing but even when on low I do not get anything entering the room that is visable to the naked eye, never mind smoke.
I assume these are old burners?
But you just said in your previous post that you knew for a fact that your stove doesn’t emit as much particulates.
It is a fact - it is a modern DEFRA approved unit (Parkray Aspect 4) which gets a ClearSkies score of 5 (5 being the highest score available).
But I would still like to see how it performs in our room. I don't see anything wrong in that.
But without helpful information for users (like myself) it is difficult to make an informed decision because I know for a fact that my stove is efficient and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one.
The informed decision is to stop using it.
The informed decision is to stop using it.
Are we back here again?
It's an inconvenient truth. The justification is no more than "my Euro 4 diesel is fine because some people drive a Euro 3".
It is a fact – it is a modern DEFRA approved unit (Parkray Aspect 4) which gets a ClearSkies score of 5 (5 being the highest score available).
Uh huh, and looping back to my dieselgate point, under what conditions were those certification tests carried out? What fuel? What moisture content? What cycle? Where were emissions measured from? What were the weather conditions?
The reality is you have no way of knowing what you're putting out, just because it passed a bench test on the day doesn't automatically translate to real world use conditions.
That site doesn't seem to have any informative links to testing criteria so how can you make a judgement on a subjective 5/5?
Can you sensibly seal these up, e.g. remove the chimney stack completely?
Easiest/cheapest to put a vented stopper (pepper pot) in each chimney pot, prevents rain ingress but allows a limited amount of ventilation through the chimney.
Uh huh, and looping back to my dieselgate point, under what conditions were those certification tests carried out? What fuel? What moisture content? What cycle? Where were emissions measured from? What were the weather conditions?
The reality is you have no way of knowing what you’re putting out, just because it passed a bench test on the day doesn’t automatically translate to real world use conditions.
That site doesn’t seem to have any informative links to testing criteria so how can you make a judgement on a subjective 5/5?
Here you go - the link was at the bottom of the page
It’s an inconvenient truth. The justification is no more than “my Euro 4 diesel is fine because some people drive a Euro 3”.
Not really, it's saying 'my Euro 4 diesel emits fewer harmful emissions than a Euro 3 does'.
Buy a new 2022 compliant woodburner and all will be well with the world....
Sadly not, that's quickly becoming the best way to increase emissions into the room. It may, arguably, make for a cleaner environment outside the house, but that's debatable too.
First off, there will be harmful emissions when humans in cold climates want to be warm. That's just a fact of life. See also transport, food and other essentials.
Doing what we can to minimise these is a good thing.
My tuppenceworth?
The cleanest way is to have a decent, fairly recent, stove with a hot air intake. Loads of these available going back at least twenty years. Clearview is a good example, there are plenty others.
Couple that with a decent chimney, (with a damper), proper fuel, and an educated / enthisiastic operator and you'll have a very good outcome.
What makes a SIA / 2022 stove that bit more efficient? In part, multiple baffles to help grab as much heat before it disappears up the chimney.
They burn really nice, so let's maximise the fire view by keeping the smoke hood part of it nice and minimalist.
When the lovely big dooris opened, the smoke has a choice of spilling out the door or taking the now tortuous route up the chimney. More and more often now, it will take the route straight out the door into the room regardless of how hard the chimney is drawing.
The test only takes into account burning, not refuelling. Go figure....
Getting back to the damper, HETAS now discourage the use of these. IT must be assumed that everyone is too dim to get their head round the concept so best just not go there.
The damper does what that extra baffling does in the new stoves, makes it much more controllable and efficient. The key thing though is that you open it before opening the door, then close it again after.
I have one on my own stove and it transformed the burn. No smoke escapes into the room, and there's no extra dust in the vicinity. Open the stove door with the baffle closed and smoke will pour into the room.
Burley had a go at making a stove which had a moveable baffle and a door operated hood which dropped into place when the door opens. It was a bit clunky and crap though. It was close to being good, but just needed a bit of tweaking.
Some of these new stoves are totally unfit for purpose as sold but manufacturers seem to be burying their heads in the sand passing on blame for poor performance to installers. This will ultimately backfire though as installers refuse to fit their stuff.
Off the record, they will just tell customers to remove the top baffle. Not much chance of getting that in writing though..
Modern woodburner with well seasoned, locally sourced wood, burnt efficiently to provide heat (not just decoration) to a well insulated house. On balance, better or worse than cranking up the gas central heating? Not just particulate but overall environmental impact...
Need to look into this. Bought ours last year, a stove that met what were the future changes.
A stove was also factored into our house renovation.
My missus has been working from home, and the stove has been superb. We've had our heating right down and restricted as much as possible.
I also noticed that when I was building our dormer at no time could I see or smell smoke? Only a haze was visible.
I bought one batch of top quality wood. But I've accumulated at least three years worth of oak and ash that has all been free. The local tree surgeon would rather someone collect the big stuff, so he can simply shred the small stuff.
People really have burners that beltch visable smoke into the room?
I don;t run mine fully shut off like you are doing but even when on low I do not get anything entering the room that is visable to the naked eye, never mind smoke.
I assume these are old burners?
Yep, it's a modern Defra approved one. Stovax Stockton 5.
It seems to be a side effect of meeting the clean air regs, the tongue which creates the secondary combustion chamber restricts the exhaust path, which is what I assume is causing the smoke to escape when you open the door.
According to the studies referenced above it's a very common thing with wood burners polluting the room when you open them.
Yep, it’s a modern Defra approved one. Stovax Stockton 5.
It seems to be a side effect of meeting the clean air regs, the tongue which creates the secondary combustion chamber restricts the exhaust path, which is what I assume is causing the smoke to escape when you open the door.
Does it make lighting it and getting it to draw when the chimney is cold harder too? We have a next Stove coming in the next 12 months when we renovate. Our venerable old thing is easy as anything to operate but is cracked and bodged. Moving the whole chimney is part of the development so it's inevitable it'll be time for a new stove too.
and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one.
Might not be releasing as much as an old one, but still releases loads. I can taste woodsmoke in the garden whenever anyone in the street has their wood burner going and they're all DEFRA approved 'clean' ones. They still pump out a load of particulates.....
Might not be releasing as much as an old one, but still releases loads.
I fully accept that - and it is EXACTLY that information I would like to know, not just 'LOG STOVE BAD. If it turns out I am pushing silly levels of pollutants up the chimney and inside the house I may well rethink my use of one but I am not about to incur the cost of replacing it if it turns out the levels are relatively small. Either way I know I won't be installing another if we move / ours fails.
The only time my stove door is closed is when I leave the house, never had an issue with blowing down or soot/particulates building up but I do have a 904 liner and decent pot on top - recently had it's first sweep since being fitted in 2013, got less than a dustpan of debris out of it. Every house/cottage I lived in as a kid (argyll/galloway) had open fires in every room (no such thing as central heating nor gas) that were used constantly in winter, it used to be my job before school to clean them out set and light them, along with the splitting of logs/kindling. Always been drummed into me to only burn well seasoned wood which is where I imagine the majority of issues comes from.
Does it make lighting it and getting it to draw when the chimney is cold harder too?
Sometimes it struggles a bit, but always lights ok. I guess occasionally the chimney will be full of cold air sat there and it just takes a while to shift it.
Always been drummed into me to only burn well seasoned wood which is where I imagine the majority of issues comes from.
You'll still pump out particulates even with well seasoned wood. I suspect in a commercial furnace with exhaust filters etc you can clean a lot of it up, but compared to Gas etc, it's always going to be much worse.
Seeing as the air source heat pump that was fitted to the house back in 2013 does the grand sum of ****-all heating wise despite being on for 24hrs day then ill continue to use my wood burner.
@johndoh cheers, I'm on my phone so couldn't find anything useful. It still doesn't seem particularly proscriptive nor does it explain what emission levels equate to each tier. I'm still sceptical because at the end of the day it's a trade body scheme. I'd bet on them using optimal fuel for the tests, whatever burns best whilst meeting the conditions (less than 25% moisture is a lot of leeway, my table says <20% for air dried and 0% for kiln dried).
That think about baffles and such makes sense, again, increase the efficiency of combustion and something else will pop up to ruin your day (in an ICE's case NOx).
Wow in the UK wood burning stoves release more small particulates than all the cars on the road!
*shrugs shoulders and tosses another log on*
I have always assumed that anyone living in a UK city burning wood was breaking the law.
Aren't all UK urban areas smokeless zones?
The list of exemptions is extensive. As George Monbiot says, if this was mainly a "working class" thing, it would likely have been banned completely.
Not all urban areas are smokeless zones.
Wow in the UK wood burning stoves release more small particulates than all the cars on the road!
There is more to this quote than our man George says. But he never lets context, or details get in the way of a good antagonistic story
There is more to this quote than our man George says. But he never lets context, or details get in the way of a good antagonistic story
And neither do you, by the looks of this 27 word takedown
Be interesting to see the research to support both sides of this claim. Anyone seen any?
The research is there, any energy system involving combustion releases CO2, SO2 and NOX as well as, yes, particulates. Most of these can be controlled and in a regulated environment they mostly are. As soon as Mr Smart 2 doors down gets involved all bets are off.
I would have thought that smoke is bad for your health was a given. As is the claim that smoke isn't generally good for the environment.
I can't imagine any research suggesting otherwise.
It’s amazing how attitudes differ when it come to super polluting wood stoves compared to say, fracking. Absolute hypocrisy.
It’s amazing how attitudes differ when it come to super polluting wood stoves compared to say, fracking.
I think you're making your own conclusions up here.
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad. Urban, slow burn, crap fuel and poorly used stoves are.
Of course they are polluting, it's inevitable when burning carbon! What's important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2. Local conditions can be mitigated with proper controls and regulations.
What’s important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2.
By using wood for fuel you are still creating CO2, wood is far better used in construction so the CO2 is captured.
Wood burner yes, a double combustion jotul, and I'll continue to use it until there's an excess of decarbonned electricity in Europe or I'm incapable of using an electric chain saw.
Our local swimming pool and Madame's school just connected to an urban heating network which runs on waste most of the time with supplementary wood burning boilers in peak demand periods.
Camper vans no
2nd cars - two between three adult drivers
3rd cars no
Hot hatches no
4WDs no
Motor bikes no
Spare rooms - no but working on one in a self-build super insulated extension
Hot tubs no
Mancaves no
Dogs no
Motorbikes no
Plastic grass no
Block paving no
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad. Urban, slow burn, crap fuel and poorly used stoves are.
Of course they are polluting, it’s inevitable when burning carbon! What’s important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2. Local conditions can be mitigated with proper controls and regulations.
The issue seems to be whether they are used properly, what % are not? And the documents (Whitty, etc.) seem to suggest that even the good ones are still polluting and it's NOT just the net CO2 that is important but small particle pollutants as well.
There does seem to be a bit of defensiveness among the stove users, which touches on the Monbiot point. I know it's a different thread but I'll ask again here - I like the idea from an aesthetic pov as much as the energy efficiency or whatever else but these reports are putting me right off. Has anyone installed and regrets it now (and is big enough to admit it!)
This guy ^ does some particulate testing in his video. No idea if any use to anyone but it was interesting.
it is - thanks. The particulates section is labelled in the video timeline and although he is clearly a pro woodburner, the data from his counter is interesting as is the (independent) data from the air quality monitoring.