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I'll keep it short if that's ok, I have some speakers for my kitchen through which I'll listen to 90's EDM & hip hop mainly and two subs fit the bill, one is 24Hz/111db and the other 34Hz/105db.
I'm aware that we can't hear below 20Hz, and what I'm wondering is how much of the bass influenced music i Iisten too is needs a 24 or 34 Hz ability.
There's not a huge amount of difference in price or size.
Any thoughts welcome, cheers.
A kitchen isn't generally the optimum audiophile listening environment. So I'd probably go with whichever one fits your space and your wallet! There's unlikely to be a gigantic difference between the two IMO. Either one will make a big a significant difference to your sound.
subs are not for hearing bass, subs are for feeling bass.
What size are they? a 14" vs a 10" move a very different amount of air.
I have in ceiling and on wall speakers in my kitchen with a pair of floor standing subs. If I stand behind the island cooking then it sound amazing, if I am at the far end by the sink, there is a lot of island in the way and the bass drops off. I have suggested more woofers in the other kitchen corner, but this was frowned upon.
It's not much of a sub if it only goes down to 34Hz !!
It's 8" or 10" that I'm looking at, 34Hz may not "blow the doors off" but in the above genres how much is below 24/34Hz in the bulk of the listening, isn't "punch" more effective than depth (or a nice balance of the two). Might just go down the 24Hz route then.
I'll keep it short if that's ok, I have some speakers for my kitchen through which I'll listen to 90's EDM & hip hop mainly and two subs fit the bill, one is 24Hz/111db and the other 34Hz/105db.
I'm aware that we can't hear below 20Hz, and what I'm wondering is how much of the bass influenced music i Iisten too is needs a 24 or 34 Hz ability.
There's not a huge amount of difference in price or size.Any thoughts welcome, cheers.
Depends….but without writing a long essay.
Sub placement in the room will generate room modes and reinforce the bass in certain areas so simply plonking a sub down in one area, connecting to the speakers/amp without setting the low pass crossover and calling it a day is rather simplistic and in a highly reflective area such as a kitchen will sound extremely boomy/bloated.
Can you set the cutoff frequency for the speakers from the amplifier?, this is generally 80hz to 100hz and anything lower is fed to the sub
What speakers, what subs? -
My twin dual opposed subs are +/-3db for 16hz at 85db, it’s this figure that tells the true low range of the sub, not a figure such as 24hz/110db - this could mean that it is -/+6db down at 24hz and the db rating of 110db is rather immaterial
What he said. ☝
I'd be more concerned about the crossover between the high end of the sub and the low end of the existing speakers rather than absolute bottom end, you don't want a gap.
Also, if I was in any way concerned about audio quality then a) I wouldn't build a setup in the kitchen and b) I wouldn't be listening to that shite. 😁
Not an audiophile, but I'd suggest you want to be able to put Energy Flash on and have your drinks glasses move around by themselves
With it being a kitchen I would suggest looking at some sound deadening, be it foam traps in the corner or the picture things.
With it being a kitchen I would suggest looking at some sound deadening, be it foam traps in the corner or the picture things.
Wouldn’t work to retrofit such In a kitchen, foam does absolutely nothing except look “pro” on YouTube influencer videos , much easier to site the sub in a suitable place (if at all possible) that does not excite excessive room modes and then apply peq to lessen them as much as possible, using such a device as a https://www.wiimhome.com/wiimultra/overview is ideal for such a setup as it does everything for £270 (on Black Friday) , or there’s cheaper options.
Or just buy the sub you like the look of that fits in whatever space you have for it and enjoy the boom…boom….boom muddy sound
😉
Or just buy the sub you like the look of that fits in whatever space you have for it and enjoy the boom…boom….boom muddy sound
👍
Mine's in the corner behind the telly (no, not in the kitchen). It's the only acceptable place
apparently
34Hz is still useful.
I've been playing with a REL T-Zero mk111 that was cheap on FB marketplace and that's only 37Hz but fairly effective.
I did find that House of Pain - Jump Around was very useful when determining level/phase/positioning to ensure the best match with the main speakers.
subs are not for hearing bass, subs are for feeling bass.
that very much depends on your other speakers, and the cutover frequency
Also, if I was in any way concerned about audio quality then a) I wouldn't build a setup in the kitchen
It's might not be the best room, but I end up listening to a lot of music in the kitchen, so worth making it sound as good as it can.
My kitchen has ceiling speakers and a surround amp. The bass from the ceiling/in wall was pretty disappointing - adding a sub transformed the sound for the better. A wireless sub link box (theres a few options) meant I could actually place it somewhere reasonable. (but that does pretty much necessitate a surround amp as you need to compensate for the transmitter delay as well as the positioning)
You've not said what subs you're looking at. IME you can't beat https://www.bkelec.com/index.htm for value. Worth looking for used on eBay - even if they're a bit cosmetically battered a sub's more likely to be out of the way where you don't really look at it.
One of my BK XLS200's came from eBay for not a lot of money (the other was full price). I've got a MJ Acoustics Pro50 that's significantly more expensive than the BK's new (again, mine was an eBay bargain). It goes a bit lower, but just doesn't sound as good (iv'e tried it in place of the BK's in the kitchen and living room and ended up with it in the office)
This was my test playlist when I was messing about with them
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6SLqRhCew6gqkoEltq0Sp9?si=4e716b45967e4199
I wouldn't fuss over the lowest frequency... I have a 10" active sub with a 100w mono amp and I can just about hear it down to about 22hz... That's just not going to be suitable in a kitchen with all the reflective surfaces, it's a recipe (boom boom) for a wooly, unfocused and confused baseline.
It's also about 1.5foot cubed and weights about 20kg...
I can't help but feel you'd be better off with good quality full range speakers at a sensible volume in that environment.
I got a Q Acoustics QB12 as it was on offer a while back. Goes down to 28Hz apparently. Certainly enough to make things rattle. This is paired with a couple of Monitor Audio Bronze bookshelf speakers.
Angel is a great track for testing and also seeing if it's too loud
I’m just hoping that all you lot live in detached houses, otherwise your neighbours are living miserable lives! It’s not unusual for next door to not notice, but people a couple of doors either way to suffer a deep ‘thump thump thump’ without knowing wherever it’s coming from.
Why not just stick headphones on?
I’m just hoping that all you lot live in detached houses, otherwise your neighbours are living miserable lives! It’s not unusual for next door to not notice, but people a couple of doors either way to suffer a deep ‘thump thump thump’ without knowing wherever it’s coming from.
Why not just stick headphones on?
Nearest neighbour is 100ft away, and they're deaf (not my fault)
Headphones/iems are a very poor experience, and I have £1000's of the best, but still much prefer the visceral chest thump of a well tuned sub with actives in a treated room
I’m just hoping that all you lot live in detached houses, otherwise your neighbours are living miserable lives! It’s not unusual for next door to not notice, but people a couple of doors either way to suffer a deep ‘thump thump thump’ without knowing wherever it’s coming from.
Why not just stick headphones on?
Headphones just arn't the same, although I'm very responsible with my sub.. I don't often even power it up, In fact I mostly power it up when nextdoors music is too loud as they occasionaly forget I have a much more powerfull sound system, so a few hours of the most vicious dub step I can find, whilst I go out shopping for a few hours keeps them in line 🤗
The lowest note you're likley to hear is B0 (~31Hz) as it's the lowest note of a 5-string bass. You might also hear A0 (27.5Hz on a synth).
The thing about sub specs is that a lot of manufacturers won't tell you how well their speaker performs at the lowest stated frequency. -6dB is the most common point to use, but some manufacturs use -10dB (half as loud).
Another interesting thing is whether to get a ported or sealed sub. Ported subs go louder watt for watt, but sealed subs are more accurate, ie clearer notes and less rumble. As a rule of thumb, ported is more suitable for home cinema, and sealed is better for music.
I have a sealed sub that goes down to 16Hz (-6dB point) and is flat from about 25Hz up. My neighbours say they can't even hear it, but I don't run it loud. I just use it to hear all the low notes 🙂
It really helps to get the position right then EQ it for the room. This goes double if you want to put it in a kitchen!
When you get things set up - play Headphonics (1995-96) by Ryoji Ikeda
The lowest note you're likley to hear is B0 (~31Hz) as it's the lowest note of a 5-string bass.
Firstly… no. Secondly… music is more than just notes.
I bet qwerty is thinking "Jesus Christ...I merely wanted advice on what sub was best........., this place is full of nerds"
😆
He did ask a somewhat nerdy question and @benos is right, the cut off frequency is far more important than the maximum SPL.
I miss having a decent sub. I've only got a couple of wee Sonos 1s in the living room, they sound surprisingly good for their size but I'd love to get lower.
I've been trying to explain it to my 7 year old and we can just feel the mini subs tingling our ears.
The Skream version of in for the kill,
alec Reece pulp fiction
He did ask a somewhat nerdy question and @benos is right, the cut off frequency is far more important than the maximum SPL.
Yeah I know, that’s why I referred to such roll-off in my post above benos, (copied what I wrote in original post below)
“My twin dual opposed subs are +/-3db for 16hz at 85db, it’s this figure that tells the true low range of the sub, not a figure such as 24hz/110db - this could mean that it is -/+6db down at 24hz and the db rating of 110db is rather immaterial”
Any decent active sub will have a crossover dial, as well as a volume dial, on the back panel so you can tune the high end cut-off to blend in with the main speakers.
For example I can set mine anywhere between 50hz to 160hz.
The lowest note you're likley to hear is B0 (~31Hz) as it's the lowest note of a 5-string bass. You might also hear A0 (27.5Hz on a synth).
I produced dance music for a good while and the accepted wisdom in the 2000s and 10s was that E1 was about as low as you could go and expect to a) be reliably cut to vinyl, and b) come through on all club systems (as opposed to just the good ones!)
Certain sounds (notably kick drums) will go lower, as they basically have all bottom end frequencies in them, but for sustained notes we stayed above E1.
Anything that was being mastered for vinyl will probably be rolled off below 20-25hz, and mono below about 300hz.
The lowest note you're likley to hear is B0 (~31Hz) as it's the lowest note of a 5-string bass. You might also hear A0 (27.5Hz on a synth).
I produced dance music for a good while and the accepted wisdom in the 2000s and 10s was that E1 was about as low as you could go and expect to a) be reliably cut to vinyl, and b) come through on all club systems (as opposed to just the good ones!)
Certain sounds (notably kick drums) will go lower, as they basically have all bottom end frequencies in them, but for sustained notes we stayed above E1.
Anything that was being mastered for vinyl will probably be rolled off below 20-25hz, and mono below about 300hz.
Sure, but it's still a BS statement - I can play a 20hz sine tone through my sub and my ears can still just about detect it.
They say the best ears can hear down to about 18hz, I dunno what vinyl or 5 string basses have to do with it, they probably cant produce tones that low in the first place.
I think the poster was just saying that that's the lowest note you're likely to come across in a piece of recorded music , not that those are lowest notes the human ear can discern.
Exactly that, @Doris5000! I meant the lowest note you’re likely to hear in a piece of recorded music, EDM as per the OP. No point in considering what you don’t intend to ask of your system.
I believe there are pipe organ perverts who take it to greater extremes.
I've only got a couple of wee Sonos 1s in the living room, they sound surprisingly good for their size but I'd love to get lower.
Sonos make a mini sub to compliment the ones
I believe there are pipe organ perverts who take it to greater extremes.
Many years ago when I subscribed to Gramophone magazine (a gramophone grandad?), there was a for sale ad. for a house which had concrete bass bins built into the cellar.
Yeah I was at some church with a pipe organ for a wedding. They played "how great thou art" which we used to have at school and is usually a fairly dreary number, but on this organ there was a low note in there that absolutely shook the place. Couldn't help but pull a bit of a bass face 🙂
I did some reading after and apparently some pipe organs can hit 16hz! This felt more like ~30hz but still absolutely insane.
Listening to the frequency sweep at the link below, just on my laptop with some decent headphones plugged into the audio jack I find that a pulsing/clicking starts at about 15Hz but I can still make out the decreasing tone down to 8Hz. Is it unusual to be able to discern tones below 15Hz?
Incidentally, my laptop speakers roll off at 160Hz and speakerphone at 120Hz. Despite being basic small systems, I'm surprised how high they roll off.
https://onlinetonegenerator.com/subwoofer.html
I'd be very surprised.
I daresay what you're hearing there is harmonics at some multiple of the fundamental, introduced by the DAC or headphone output of your laptop.
On that sweep test I can get down to 20Hz both on buds (Cambridge Audio M100) and laptop speakers (MacBook Pro M4). On the speakers there is a distinct hump around 50Hz.
Playing the Mac through the hi-fi (via headphone out) with subs is about the same again with a similar hump around 50Hz. Of course it's not just your speakers you are testing, it's your ears. The other end of the scale is pretty awful for me - I'm not telling.
I'll have fish out the audio interface and try good phones on that and also through the hi-fi again.
I believe there are pipe organ perverts who take it to greater extremes.
Many years ago when I subscribed to Gramophone magazine (a gramophone grandad?), there was a for sale ad. for a house which had concrete bass bins built into the cellar.
many years ago my parents viewed a victorian TERRACED house in Edinburghs leafy leafy Trinity that had a full sized pipe organ in the stairway. the gubbins of the beast was in the cellar, organ halfway up the stairs and the pipes running the full height of the building. I expect the neighbours were delighted to see the back of the old boy!
It's 8" or 10" that I'm looking at, 34Hz may not "blow the doors off" but in the above genres how much is below 24/34Hz in the bulk of the listening, isn't "punch" more effective than depth (or a nice balance of the two). Might just go down the 24Hz route then.
Research the concept of Yamaha NS-10 Studio monitors, and the "Disco Smile"... Then consider that this era music was produced almost entirely on Yamaha NS-10 monitors, with a quoted frequency range of 60Hz-20KHz
90's dance music (FFS don't call it EDM! You're not an American Teenager! 🤬 ) will mostly have broader frequency ranges than most modern stuff (most modern stuff is only listened to as crap quality Mp3's and on terrible equipment), but even then, most of it still likely won't go as low as you'd think it does...
When I was busy both DJing and also well into my HiFi kit back in the late 90's and early 2000's, I used to have a couple of reference tracks that I'd use to test the low end frequency response of equipment, because most tracks wouldn't drop much below 50Hz, but a few did...
It's 8" or 10" that I'm looking at, 34Hz may not "blow the doors off" but in the above genres how much is below 24/34Hz in the bulk of the listening, isn't "punch" more effective than depth (or a nice balance of the two). Might just go down the 24Hz route then.
Research the concept of Yamaha NS-10 Studio monitors, and the "Disco Smile"... Then consider that this era music was produced almost entirely on Yamaha NS-10 monitors, with a quoted frequency range of 60Hz-20KHz
90's dance music (FFS don't call it EDM! You're not an American Teenager! 🤬 ) will mostly have broader frequency ranges than most modern stuff (most modern stuff is only listened to as crap quality Mp3's and on terrible equipment), but even then, most of it still likely won't go as low as you'd think it does...
When I was busy both DJing and also well into my HiFi kit back in the late 90's and early 2000's, I used to have a couple of reference tracks that I'd use to test the low end frequency response of equipment, because most tracks wouldn't drop much below 50Hz, but a few did...
FWIW I started doing an HND in Electronic Music Production a few years ago (didn't get to complete it sadly for reasons out of my control, but anyway), and going into the science behind the sounds and the production of the music, was really eye opening!
I'd recommend reading more about the "Loudness Wars" too, which will reveal a hell of a lot about why this kind of music has mostly not been designed for huge dynamic range, but for maximum effect on a broad range of equipment...
@mboy - username almost checks out! 😉 😇
A rare example here of where a remix actually improves on the original... From memory, even Moby himself was hammering this when it came out around 2005...
That Alan Parsons quote is absolutely bang on!
Forgot to ask the OP @qwerty what sources you are using for the music...? Anything below CD quality audio, then just give up, your sub will be doing pretty much nothing anyway... Most lossy (MP3 et al) conversion formats either completely cut everything below around 50Hz anyway, or drastically reduce it.
On that sweep test I can get down to 20Hz both on buds (Cambridge Audio M100) and laptop speakers (MacBook Pro M4). On the speakers there is a distinct hump around 50Hz.
I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to call BS here... To get down to 20Hz audibly would require a pretty serious driver size, even 50Hz audibly would require MUCH larger drivers than are in your laptop let alone your ear buds...
I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to call BS here... To get down to 20Hz audibly would require a pretty serious driver size, even 50Hz audibly would require MUCH larger drivers than are in your laptop let alone your ear buds...
I was wondering that myself, I can just about get 20hz out of my 10" subwoofer, and it's not happy about doing it.
Unless the laws of physics have changed since I last checked, that's just not happening on tiny laptop speakers or ear buds.
I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to call BS here... To get down to 20Hz audibly would require a pretty serious driver size, even 50Hz audibly would require MUCH larger drivers than are in your laptop let alone your ear buds...
Unless the laws of physics have changed since I last checked, that's just not happening on tiny laptop speakers or ear buds.
I don't know what the mistake is here, but there is a mistake. Many earbuds measurably produce output far below 50hz, lots down to 20hz
Go and look up headphone frequency response graphs on e.g. crinacle
Laptop speakers yes, that's probably distortion the user is hearing
I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to call BS here...
I'll let Mrs. Slow know she was mistaken too - she got the same results as me. As for top end, don't ask. My ears are very old.
even 50Hz audibly would require MUCH larger drivers than are in your laptop let alone your ear buds...
Nonsense. That's mains frequency and easily reproduced. Double bass goes lower than that and the bottom note on a full size grand piano is 28Hz.
In the kitchen though 😎 .