[Closed] Audiophile mains cables please explain?

I run my shit off a massive bank of lead:acid cells under the house

Recently, doubt has been cast over my hifi feng shui - I aligned it according to the direction the plates point in but some say it's the direction of travel of the electrons that matters 🙁

Is there any point Winston? Sounds like you're spoiling for an argument.

Reads like you are offering one 😉

fool and their money

See kashima coating and various other MTB upgrades

I can hear a difference between the cables I have.

I don't care if anybody else can't.

i tried cleaning the terminals on a plug with brasso once.
not sure i could really tell any difference if im honest.
i reckon there is an argument to be said for many upgrades, although it may be slight.
every component in a system degrades the quality of sound to a certain degree (compared to hearing the instrument played live)
however, amplifier A *might* degrade the sound a little less than amplifier B.
this would apply to every component in a hifi system.
my personal opinion= every hifi can be upgraded in about 20 minutes to sound 100% better with the application of a nice bottle of *insert your choice of alcohol here*

A friend of mine has about £20k of Naim kit, which sounds very nice. Another friend of his came round one evening with a different mains lead to try. I laughed At first, but the difference was astonishing.

geetee, I'm not looking for an argument, I am just a bit curious. Hoping to hear a few different viewpoints.

I have fairly decent hifi, Roksan processor/pre amp and Roksan power amp, tend to use a CA Dacmagic to play WMA/FLAC files.

I use mix of cables, nothing stupidly expensive but I do have Linn interconnects which came with a s/h Linn system I have since sold, I can't say I noticed any differences between cables. I do use spade connectors on my speaker wire as I think that a good "clean" connection is important.

I do believe that some things that many would consider snake oil make quite a difference, e.g. equipment stands - I had my first hifi on a cheap Ikea pine TV stand under the TV, I was re arranging the room and put the separates on the laminate floor, it made a huge difference, so I bought a decent stand.

At the moment my system is run from 1 socket and extension leads, I am thinking about adding extra sockets to the room as part of the house refurb. If I do I was considering making up some decent quality power cables, nothing stupid just about £15 - £20 a cable.

Any "analogue" signal components and interconnects are going to influence the sound quality/fidelity (a change of impedance changes the frequency response). BUT, mains cables, the bit that just supplies a 50Hz 240v sinusoidal voltage to the amplifiers power filters, er, no.

If you wanted to improve the DC link ripple, you'd be better off delivering your own DC link from a battery system, or generating your own clean AC source.

A £20k amplifer is going to have such a good filtered front end to the power stage that no difference in mains lead impedance will make any difference to the DC link ripple. Large inductors and capacitors for filtering the dc link are expensive, and hence usually for a budget system this is where compromises are made

OP - Could you stretch to £25?

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/529-mcru-diy-mains-lead-set.html

the equivalent of :

floating rotors
braided hoses
extra wide bars
tyres with more than one compound in them
etc etc etc

I guess

Made especially for a man with too much money and not enough sense.

FairPlay Winston. Apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick.

Given that the power coming into the unit is eventually going to be, at least in a round about way, the sound that you listen to, then the quality of the power in has the potential to impact on the overall, discernible sound quality.

However, it's unlikely that anything that can be done in a power cable alone over and above a slightly nicer oxygen free, thick copper cable, ferrite beads etc. which would cost at the outside £15 - if you want to improve the power supply, then there are ways of re-constituting a cleaner sine waveform which are much more worthwhile than investing a grand in a power cable - personally, I'd not bother with either, it's going to greater lengths than you will see in recording studios, and as such all you will do is make the noise which is inherent in the recording more audible.

I'm intrigued as to how a nice, pure power lead can make any difference when it's connected to a filthy, creaking national grid.

I'm also intrigued as to whether those that hear a difference between such things do so under a double blind test..?

The theory is that they filter out the crap that the grid puts onto it.

Like a Britta filter on a tap?

The theory is that they filter out the crap that the grid puts onto it.

Being a slightly [s]naive[/s] cynical electronics engineer, I'd have thought introducing a filter with a suitably defined passband, roll-off and ideally near constant group delay would be a better bet than a slightly more shiny bit of copper mains cable.
Having said that, even doing all that would all seem like wasted bollocks prior to having a DC power rail.

Hmm a mains conditioner containing the relevant inductors etc I could see providing some benefit. However a passive cable on its own isn't going to filter anything!

Yes Ian! Yes yes yes! I studied electronics years ago (as part of my audio technology degree) and am frankly getting flipped off by some Flippety hifi types and their erm.. Misunderstanding 🙂

The theory is that they filter out the crap that the grid puts onto it.

I thought it wasn't the grid that it was trying to filter - but your domestic stuff like fridges.

That is why some people use separate rings for their hifi.

The power supply of a good amp should filter this out stuff anyway...

I have a MOD power supply filter at home, although I have never yet used it. Blinkin heavy block of a thing.

It is supposed to filter out stuff well - including the EMP that might result from a nuke - at least my hifi will be safe 🙂

Yes Ian! Yes yes yes! I studied electronics years ago (as part of my audio technology degree) and am frankly getting flipped off by some Flippety hifi types and their erm.. Misunderstanding

Indeed!
If you're the sort of person who impressed to find out that your bike is made of 'aerospace grade' aluminium, then audiophilia is for you 😀

Yes Ian! Yes yes yes!

The best explanation that I've heard for alot of this Hi Fi "Voodoo", (and bike voodoo) is that as humans we are basically bored.

Our brains crave the new

So when you swap leads the sound changes and this sound is now new and your brain prefers it. (For lead you can of course insert damping, wheel size, no. of gears lens etc.)

Of course this won't work if its actually worse and new

I'd love to try a double blind test on a mains lead. All I can think is you'd want one with good shielding, but that doesn't seem to be on offer

when was the last time you heard that, Mr Munro ?

*puts down sandwich*

prawn mayonnaise ?

I don't know about mains cables, but last time I actively tried, I could hear the difference between speaker cables:
In order of brightness: Mains twin & earth, Mission Solid Core, Naim NAC-A4.

Not a blind test though as I changed the cables myself!

I've proposed a wager of £50.00 several times before on STW that I could still tell the difference between twin & earth & Naim cable.
Using my system and room, obviously.
No one took me up on it.

I've not tried it for ages, tbh, but I'll try it again sometime and if I can still tell the difference I'll happily do a blind test.
Wager to be arranged.
Be interesting to see if my ears are still up to it or not.

Speaker cable is a distraction here. I mean the signal actually goes through that doesn't it

Also tell the difference is not the same as one being "better" than the other

i have certainly heard a difference between interconnects (free to £20 quid and £50 to free)

But again a signal goes through the interconnect

But the mains lead?!!!

when was the last time you heard that, Mr Munro ?

😀 😀 😀

Are they not just to help eliminate ground loop induced hum?

[url] http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/aug94/groundloops.html [/url]

[img] [/img]

Assuming that your expensive mains cable is the single most perfect cable in existence, that last two feet is going to make fig all difference when you've still got the rest of your house ring main and the national grid backhaul behind it.

If it's claiming to be some sort of filtering system, be that a passive choke or some sort of active processing, that might be different; but then, what's it going to be doing that your supposedly 'hifi' amp's PSU isn't doing already?

If mains noise is actually an issue, your money would be better spent on a UPS that can provide nice clean inverted DC power completely isolated from the mains feed. And that's a big 'if'.

In order of brightness: Mains twin & earth, Mission Solid Core, Naim NAC-A4.

Out of interest what are the SI units of Brightness? Sunbeams per a second? Sorry! 😀 (that's a genuine sorry, I'm not intending to get at anyone), but presumably this could be measured with a brightness meter?

I could hear the difference between speaker cables:

Once you get beyond 'sufficient' grade, ie not crappy CAT2 bell wire, it shouldn't make much difference, outside interference notwithstanding. (Why isn't speaker cable shielded? There's an untapped market.) There's an adage that one of the best cables you can use for speakers is mains cable.

Analogue interconnects are a different matter. Cable quality makes a massive difference.

Digital interconnects are a different matter again. Is the signal intact [yes|no]?

The SI unit for brightness in musical terms would be measured by how loud the treble part of the audio frequency was relative to the rest of the spectrum. It's perfectly measurable.

And why do people think that just because a signal is digital its therefore infallible.

Your amplifer generates a + and - DC link, that is low pass filtered from the mains supply. Now the mains supply is ~50Hz, so that lo wpass filter must be suitably, er low, to turn 50Hz into DC (with a small amount of ripple). Hence, any "noise" on the mains cable which is higher than 50Hz (and there will be quite a bit in the average house with allsorts of appliances running in parallel) will also be filtered out, and the higher frequency it is, the more it will be attenuated. Any noise somewhat below 50Hz (lets say 10Hz for the sake of argument) that does get through the power filtering will indeed introduce a smaller (by the step down ratio at that moment in time in the main power stage transistors) 10Hz hum on the speaker outputs. No the question becomes, can you hear a 10Hz hum that could easily be only 5% of the output amplitude? On the typical household stereo, er, no you can't.

So, what sort of "super high quality" mains cable is going to help to remove say a 10Hz ripple? Well, it ain't gonna look like a normal mains cable that is for certain (hint, google: inductor size vs frequency for the answer!)

IanMunro - Member

Out of interest what are the SI units of Brightness? Sunbeams per a second? Sorry! (that's a genuine sorry, I'm not intending to get at anyone), but presumably this could be measured with a brightness meter?

I find it very difficult to believe you've never heard anyone refer to 'brighter' or 'darker' in relation to tone or timbre before, what with it being a universal concept.

So yes, you obviously are intending to 'get at' someone.

Shame, I was enjoying that.

And why do people think that just because a signal is digital its therefore infallible.

I didn't say it was infallible. I said it was either intact or it wasn't, which it is. It's perfectly possible for it to degrade, but you'd know about it sharpish if it did.

If mains noise is actually an issue, your money would be better spent on a UPS that can provide nice clean inverted DC power completely isolated from the mains feed. And that's a big 'if'.

Trouble is a UPS can't normally supply the current your power amps might want, but cool for other stuff.

I'll wager that's not true; I can check the output of one next time I'm in one of our data centres if you like. (-:

I didn't say it was infallible. I said it was either intact or it wasn't, which it is. It's perfectly possible for it to degrade, but you'd know about it sharpish if it did.

Good glad that's sorted out.

In fact, it's perfectly possible for a digital signal to degrade without a human being er, being able to tell. Take for example an 8bit serial data link, which encodes 256 different states into 8 serially transmitted bits. Depending on the significance (LSB to MSB) of the bit that is miss read (read high when it's low, or vise versa) the data value might be changed by as much as 128 (MSB) to only 1(LSB) out of a possible value of 256. Then take the fact that those bits will be sent down the cable with significant oversamplling (say 192kbs for example on a 44kbs raw data rate) and it's highly likely that a single or non repetitive error will be invisible to the human ear!

I find it very difficult to believe you've never heard anyone refer to 'brighter' or 'darker' in relation to tone or timbre before, what with it being a universal concept.

Yup, I've heard it, and I've also heard reflexologists referring to releasing healing energy by foot manipulation.
My point is that referring to something as brighter, or darker is a useful as referring to healing energy without some measurable metric. And with out such metric, you're pretty much in the realm of at best psuedo-science. If 'brightness' was measurable, then Naim would be able to put their cables on a network analyzer, and show the difference in result to some less 'bright' cable. Other manufacturer's would then be able to demonstrate if their cables were 'brighter' (and price them accordingly). If manufacturer's claim that a network analyser couldn't detect such things then they'd be asserting that physics isn't how we imagine it to be, and thus would be dealing in the supernatural.

The measurable metric is probably frequency response. Or dB in a given frequency range perhaps. The problem is that most people's ears don't have spectrum analysers built in.

Er, when did I say the changes weren't measurable?

You don't believe that people are able to differentiate changes in timbre between sounds of identical pitch and loudness?

How very extraordinary.

If 'brightness' was measurable, then Naim would be able to put their cables on a network analyzer, and show the difference in result to some less 'bright' cable.

This happens all the time in HiFi mag's, where they do a frequency response analysis of a given piece of equipment and then publish the graphed data to show where in the frequency the peaks and troughs may be.

The standard measurement is +-3dB for any given frequency as being detectable by the human hear.

The standard measurement is +-3dB for any given frequency as being detectable by the human hear.

I think it less than that - more like 1db:

http://www.dspguide.com/ch22/1.htm

I think it less than that - more like 1db:

http://www.dspguide.com/ch22/1.htm

Actually, it depends on the frequency, duration and intensity of the sound as well as the auditory context - some sounds can be significantly louder in difference than would normally be noticeable, but due to the sounds around them they are almost completely imperceptible.

It can be as low as 0.3dB - e.g. 1khz @ 80dB SPL but 1Khz at 20dB SPL is as high as 1.5dB.

Sound is one of the areas where Weber's law falls flat on it's arse.

I found that aligning the mains cables with a handy ley line produces a far more rounded and defined auditory experience.

You'll need to hire a druid to install one.

This guy should be available:

[img] [/img]

It's quite amusing if you work in telecoms - we have £100k plus measuring kit which is orders of magnitude more sensitive than any audiophile's ear, needs calibration kits which cost £10k + and still runs on a cheapo 99p mains lead.

I love these threads. Why don't you give your spare money to charity instead.

If mains noise is actually an issue, your money would be better spent on a UPS that can provide nice clean inverted DC power completely isolated from the mains feed. And that's a big 'if'.
Trouble is a UPS can't normally supply the current your power amps might want, but cool for other stuff.

We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage...

You don't believe that people are able to differentiate changes in timbre between sounds of identical pitch and loudness?

Given that the timbre of sound could only really reasonably be described as a function of pitch (or more accurately frequency) and loudness (or more accurately amplitude), how can they remain the same and the timbre be different?

Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users...

At Casa Woppit:

[img] [/img]

... plus a separate spur from the mains.

Sounds lovely. 8)

That's...

http://www.grahams.co.uk/hi-fi/hifiaccessories/naim-hydra.html

Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users...

Engineers design this stuff. They usually have some sort of technical understanding of the principles behind it, too.

Hi Fi users don't, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.

Of course, there are folks quite happy to perpetuate misunderstanding in order to sell stuff.

C'est la vie.

Bokonon, that's not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.

We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage...

would it fit nicely at home?

Hi Fi users don't, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.

Yawn.

They do listen to it, however...

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...

Yawn.

They do listen to it, however...

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...

Isn't it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments...

Isn't it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments...

what is the point of that?

Here's one that was made earlier:

Raindog - Member

A friend of mine has about £20k of Naim kit, which sounds very nice. Another friend of his came round one evening with a different mains lead to try. I laughed At first, but the difference was astonishing.

Bokonon, that's not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.

Given that notes are only very loosely defined, the comparison is meaningless.

The sound is a collection of different frequencies tones at different amplitudes - yes, each violin will have a different collection of these, but they are still just functions of frequency and aomplitude.

P.S. which tuning system is the violin using? you know that 440hz concert A is only for nazi's right? 😉

Late to the discussion....

A colleague of mine if absolutely 100% convinced his upgraded mains cables are the best thing since sliced white.

I also call "snake oil", but would like to verify for myself. This guy is not at all gullible (usually) and was initially sceptical about the idea himself.

He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he's done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.

He uses these: [url= http://tinyurl.com/abyehka ]Russ Andrews Reference[/url] at £225 each for 1.5m length.

[img] [/img]

Russ Andrews is also responsible for [url= http://tinyurl.com/ba28oj9 ]these [/url] at an eye watering £3k for only 1m 😯

[img] [/img]

They do listen to it, however...

But not impartially, and that is important.

(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...

Spite? You have the wrong engineer.

I call it "crap" because [i]even if[/i] it all does what it says it does, audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits. e.g. £150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing? Could be done for £5. Easily.

You're perfectly at liberty to spend your cash on audiophile products, it's your cash, this is the beauty of living in a free world.

But not impartially, and that is important.

how do you know?

audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits.

Quantify them.

£150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing

[i]That's[/i] gone up since I bought it at £80...

I think the prices of these accessories does start to get silly when you could upgrade something much more important for the same price, say, a PSU for instance.

Quantify them.

He did. In the bit you snipped.

Quantify [i]the benefits[/i]...

Similar to Mr Woppit I went down the separate spur and olde style round sockets and plugs. Sounds nice, (Standard Naim cables and amps here).

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?

Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you're ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you'd get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.

the equivalent of :
floating rotors
braided hoses
extra wide bars
tyres with more than one compound in them
etc etc etc

He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he's done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.

£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn't even operate at full 1080p.

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?

What about [url= http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/ ]this?[/url]

£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn't even operate at full 1080p

What exactly is he hoping this will improve about the Sky Box?

Sound "quality" ?
Picture "quality" ?
Amount of missed recordings per month ?

You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the [s]heads[/s] ears of HiFi users?

Not particularly.

Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you're ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you'd get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.

Interesting point. I daresay that much, if not all, consumer goods are overpriced (mountain bikes, anybody?). You might have a whole new market for yourself, there. If you can produce a hydra lead for a fiver that sounds as good as my £80-worth from Graham's, you've got my vote. There wasn't one available at the time when I wanted to maximise efficient power supply to my system, though.

It'd be interesting to do a blind test of these things.

The guy with the £225 power lead to his Sky box for instance. See if he'd leave you alone in the room with his new cables and a handful of regular mains cables; you hook up his kit with one set at random and he comes back and tries to tell you which is in use by listening to it.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that he can't tell reliably which is which. Which, y'know, is fine and all, I'm sure it's a "subtle" difference. But after spending a grand on kettle leads I'd want my socks blown off.

Incidentally,

What's all this "star earth" business?

EDIT - answered my own question.

http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/15364009042958819

Hmm.

http://www.lh-electric.net/tutorials/gnd_loop.html

What's all this "star earth" business?

You connect every appliance's mains earth, using an individual cable, to a single central point.

As opposed to, e.g. inside a cheap 4-way extension lead, where each appliances mains earth is connected to a metal bar inside the extension lead.