[Closed] Attention Motorcyclists...

Sorry, yes 4 and 2 although most of the braking is done with the front wheel(s).

Still reinforces how with modern abs and big fat tyres most cars can brake quicker and more safely on our dodgy roads.

Cougar - Member

I have a theory that many BMW drivers drive the way they do because of exactly this attitude; it leaves them no other choice. I had a Merc for a while, and found that the only way to make progress was to drive to the stereotype because no-one ever gives you a break or lets you out, ever. Indicating just tips people off so they can get the drop on you and block you in.

I drive a BMW and find that most drivers are okay to me (apart from Subura drivers for some reason :?)

However, I think the main reason why is because my BMW is an old 51 plate.

Ahhhh, reminds me of the old filtering thread...
Happy days, happy days indeed!

diesel alfa right?
not a real alfa
not a real alfa driver

nope - my 3rd petrol alfa - went for petrol over diesel as, although the low rev torque isn't as good, engine braking is better!

(I'm actually assuming you're joking here)

of course I am joking about BMWs, it is Audis that really boil my p1ss...

I take it that you don't actually drive a car much nowadays.

Currently doing 700+ miles in a 5 day working week for work.
Hampshire to Cumbria this week, for example. Currently in Carlisle.

Generally I'm a very relaxed driver. I don't rush.

Still reinforces how with modern abs and big fat tyres most cars can brake quicker and more safely on our dodgy roads

You know lots of bikes come with ABS now too ?

You know lots of bikes come with ABS now too ?

This is STW, why let the facts get in the way?

If you just dropped back a bit, there'd be more room for facts.

Rule 163 states:

move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking, once you have started to overtake. Allow plenty of room. Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in"

"Plenty of room" is undefined, but no mention is made of two second gaps or stopping distances.

Rule 168 states:

Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. [b]Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.[/b]

Therefore, re-spacing the deck once an overtaking vehicle has pulled in is expected and required.

Sorry to spoil the fun.

29ers suck.

Sorry didn't know most bikes have abs now too. Still dont think they can out brake a car though. You could argue reaction times might be better as riders can see further up road ( as long as no vans etc blocking line of sight etc) but still think that the risk of crashing due to heavy braking on a bike is higher than in a car abs or not.

Have vague memories of seeing abs hydraulic rim brakes on a mountain bike many years ago but dont think they caught on

most

is stretching it a bit Bruk, it's still the minority.

I've only crashed twice under hard braking.

Once was my first race, another was trying to outbrake a British Superstock racing mate. 🙂

Still reinforces how with modern abs and big fat tyres most cars can brake quicker and more safely on our dodgy roads

To be fair I would never doubt a car will outbrake a bike myself. Cars have everything going for them, electronics, grip, not being able to fall off, and very importantly, they don't lift the back end off the floor if you overdo the brakes in a straight line.

Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

So does this settle it then?

For sure.

So does this settle it then?

combined with

but do not cut in

then yes - not cutting in would preclude dangerously reducing my braking distance.

or cut in and risk that if you caused an accident then those Z2 Bombers would be coming out of my car boot...

So are we saying everyone should wait for a four second gap to slot into before overtaking?

I don't think TurnerGuy is saying that now - he's gone from this

If I have a 2 second gap in front of me then I might accept a bike/car overtaking and leaving me 1.5 seconds whilst I ease off the accelerator to adjust the gap, but any less than that is unacceptable.

then yes - not cutting in would preclude dangerously reducing my braking distance.

For sake of argument, at 50mph, a 2 second gap is approx. 50 yards, so even at half that distance, you still have 25 yards from the bike. Given that an 'average' car length is 15 feet (or 3 yards) long, that still gives you over 8 car lengths of a gap that is presumably still increasing by virtue of a combination of their additional speed and your deceleration!

Can we take it that you have come to the conclusion that as long as someone does not 'cut immediately in front' (which no-one condoned BTW and is very different to filtering as advocated by PP) that your earlier posts were not entirely correct and we have reached an agreement? 😀

So are we saying everyone should wait for a four second gap to slot into before overtaking?

no but they shouldn't reduce my braking distance to something that is dangerous for me, so maybe a second at the very minimum.

There will be a limit to how quickly I can gain my 2 seconds distance back by just easing off the accelerator, so if someone takes too much of my braking distance away then I am going to have to brake, which is something the overtaker should not force me to do.

But you'll have seen him coming and already started to increase your braking distance in anticipation, of course.

What tyres for overtaking cars on a motorbike?

There will be a limit to how quickly I can gain my 2 seconds distance back

You seem quite obsessed with this 2 second 'rule'. Do you ever overtake anything on the open road? I'm wondering how you manage to count 2 seconds to the car about to be overtaken (reducing to zero at some point in the manoeuvre and presumably inducing considerable moistness in your undercrackers) while also trying to ascertain whether there is over 3-4 seconds between the car the car you are overtaking and the one you will slot in behind!

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it 8)

you will be able to see much further ahead than just the bike and car in front

except when they go over the brow of a hill, or round a bend, or the car in front is a van or something that I can't see through.

What tyres for overtaking cars on a motorbike?

I've fount that any round, rubbery ones will do the job time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time.

And that's just filtering through one small queue.

😀

then yes - not cutting in would preclude dangerously reducing my braking distance.

Actually, I'd forgotten one tinsy-winsy detail:

At our nominal 50mph/50yd gap I'll pull right to the front of that gap, near the car in front of you, reducing your space by 5 yards, maybe a tad more.
i.e. Bugger all difference to you

Where does that leave the "FORCING us to BRAKE" advocates now, hmmm?

Now that's checkmate again. I win 2 games to nil.

Note:
Remember, I'm making my decisions, I don't need you to make them for me.....

Crikey there are some grumpy jerks here! and some inconsiderate ones. Speaking from the point of view of a mororcyclist for 33 years, a car driver for 32 and a cyclist for 40 I reckon I have seen a lot.
tyhe m/c who slots into a space allocated by a driver as his stopping space is a t***. Some dimwit above reckons that as the car can see past the m/c the stopping space is still there. not when the deer that started the thread walks out , or you stall it, or you go onto reserve etc. All seen this summer. then the m/c or what ever stops dead. By doung such a thing you are dead selfish and just plain thick. ah well evolution may get you, sooner rather than later.
I do filter on my m/c, part of the reason for having it but I do not screw up other drivers. I do take great pleasure in ensuring that no one does it to me though by being deadly boring and playing by the book.
As usual the selfish sods come out to play.
It's easy, if you play by the rules, not the ones you want then you are correct. If not, rude word deleted as its a family forum
anyway, that deers, was it near Staunton? there is a lovely guts stain all over the road with signs of it being spread for yards.
Better to hit a deer than a boar though. the latter don't give

It's easy, if you play by the rules

I do. All the printed ones quoted above and the other, unprinted ones. 🙂

Well. Maybe I go over the speed limit a tinsy winsy little bit now and again. Hey Ho! 😉

Crikey there are some grumpy jerks here!

tyhe m/c who slots into a space allocated by a driver as his stopping space is a t***.

Some dimwit above reckons that as the car can see past the m/c the stopping space is still there.

As for being hit by a deer, shit happens (you could also be hit by a light aircraft) but going onto reserve or stalling and stopping dead? Have you not got a clutch??

I'll pull right to the front of that gap, near the car in front of you

perfect, just what is wanted - I will be only to happy to pull back, maybe even brake, in order for to adopt a safer position on the road, if I haven't already started doing so.

Who said that?

you - read your own post above.

Who said that?
you - read your own post above.

I thought it was me to be honest.

Do you mean this

But in the 'real world' with your all-round observation skills, you will be able to see much further ahead than just the bike and car in front, so will still be able to maintain a safe margin.

Interesting that you should take that so literally. By your logic, no-one should overtake and pull in until they are at least two seconds ahead of you. Surely staying on the other side of the road for that long presents a much more dangerous scenario than pulling in safely at the earliest opportunity without cutting across, as advocated in the Highway Code.

You might like to have a look at the video linked below and if you are really feeling anal, time the gaps between cars.

It would, of course be much quicker and safer on a bike 😉

[url= http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/movies/single-veh-overtake.html ]Single vehicle overtake video[/url]

You might like to have a look at the video linked below

yeah, and when he pulled into the gap, he pulled in close to the car in front, thereby compromising the braking distance of the car behind as little as possible and taking more of the risk than he was imposing on the car behind.

Just like PP said above, and also when I overtake.

And if the car behind had been driving with a 2 second gap it would have been even safer.

I'd like to post this wee story as a reminder for car drivers/motor cyclists.

I wonder if the accused looked in her mirror but had one last glance up ahead before pulling out a split second after the biker decided to go for it? I just keep picturing the biker going for a really quick pass and the woman deciding to make the move roughly the same moment.. with it all ending with a death. Without seeing what happened its hard to put the blame on any of them but if any of you are out on the bike and see an overtaking moment ahead and decide to spurt past (and quite rightly too) just be aware of what some drivers can do up ahead and always remember that many drivers won't realize just how fast you can put a thought into practice. Remember,no matter how much power we have with bikes to 'quickly and safely' get past,there's other road users out there not expecting what bikes are capable of. So when things don't go to plan,there's not always going to be a time for arguing with the driver or motorcyclist over who was at fault as in this case,the motorcyclist was knocked/pinned/T-boned into the rockface by the sounds of things. Game over.

http://www.highland-news.co.uk/News/Three-year-ban-for-woman-who-caused-A82-death-crash-15052012.htm

From a drivers point of view, If you see headlights of a bike in the mirror, EXPECT it to be passing you within fractions of a second.

After reading this story I now think twice about passing as fast as I used to on the motorbike. In the right gear you could easily pass a line of cars without booting it. Booting it might get you past quickly (and supposedly safely in a motorcyclists mindset) but have a read of this story to view overtaking from a different perspective.

Woody, the clip shows a confident driver making progress but at the same time it makes me wonder what would have happened if the car he pulled in behind freaked a bit and lifted off.

On the type of road and how busy it is,this can often be a complete waste of time.

Not to mention Coffeeking wearing his brakes out far earlier than expected ;O)

What tyres for overtaking cars on a motorbike?

I can't believe that stuff is till going

Sad story Martin but it doesn't surprise me. I fully expect every car I overtake to pull out as it happens so regularly (at least 5 or 6 times on a shift at work) as people simply do not check their mirrors or expect another vehicle to be overtaking at speed.

EDIT: Martin TBH the driving in the video didn't impress me either as it highlighted how pointless an overtake in that situation was in a car. Personally, I would assume there was a nutter desperate to overtake if I saw someone weaving around like that and he may well have caused anxiety in the other road users. It did illustrate a 'normal' driving scenario however and showed that people generally drive far too close to the car in front, thus making overtaking even more hazardous.

Every biker who has overtaken me in the Highlands has been breaking the speed limit. Most have also overtaken several cars at once,several appear to have overtaken blind judging by the way they have had to cut back in into gaps that aren't really there and braked.I would estimate that several were in excess of 90mph and certainly some well over 100mph.They are endagering themselves and other road users. There are certainly bad car drivers too and although quite a few have overtaken me breaking the speed limit and a couple have overtaken more than one car at once but none have ever displayed the wrecklessness I see from practically every biker I have encountered.

nick1962 - Member

Every biker who has overtaken me in the Highlands has been breaking the speed limit. Most have also overtaken several cars at once,several appear to have overtaken blind judging by the way they have had to cut back in into gaps that aren't really there and braked.

Hang on a mo - we get slagged for overtaking more than one car at once and for cutting in between cars............. I guess we arenotallowed to overtake any more at all?

.

I would estimate that several were in excess of 90mph and certainly some well over 100mph.

slow riders then? 🙄

If overtaking it is best to get the manoeuvre over and done with as quick as possible. give any bike a handful in the middle gears and its gone from 50 - 90 in a few yards thus the overtake is done safely and well.

TBH the driving in the video didn't impress me either as it highlighted how pointless an overtake in that situation was in a car

I was going to say this but thought better of it - more ammo for someone to bash me with...

I think one of the best features of satnavs is in showing an ETA, then you can see how pointless it is to drive around aggressively, better to save it and just wait for some decent corners to carve round.

TJ

I'm driving at the speed limit so no you aren't legally allowed to overtake.
And I should have added that all the bikers who have overtaken me have then shot off into the distance too well in excess of the speed limit.It seems to me they have overtaken just to get some open road to floor it.
How sensible.
Edit: And I forgot to mention those block white lines indicating no overtaking don't seem apply to motorcylists

Sorry didn't know most bikes have abs now too. Still dont think they can out brake a car though

The braking performance a bike has would blow your mind. To put it into perspectivemost bikes have font brake discs (ignore rear for car and bike, they don't provide signitifcant additional braking power), these discs are larger than the ones on your car (unless you have an M3>).

Furthermore these two gigantic discs (and it has to be said excellent minimum 4 pot calipers) have to slow down (even with rider) sub 400kgs, in the real world probably a lot less. Super bikes routinely weigh in at 250kgs. All you have to add-in then is the weight of a wreckless working class rider with a death wish and you can see that the weight versus braking power is immense. Furthermore they don't stand up on end like your Cotic hardtail, they have real grip. Very few things can out-brake a bike.

No - If they "floor it" they will be doing 180 mph not 80 mph

TandemJeremy - Member
No - If they "floor it" they will be doing 180 mph not 80 mph

Don't you mean they will be kissing Tarmac if one floors it

I was quoting a previous post.

Bikes don't 'floor it' anyway, mainly because they have no floor and no 'it' to put on said floor. The generally used term is 'cracking the throttle'

I'm driving at the speed limit so no you aren't legally allowed to overtake.

Yawn.

It's a fair point PP! Seems like the general attitude of the bikers on here is that if a bike can potentially do 180 then 100 is fine.. Cos you all know what you're doing.

I'm driving at the speed limit so no you aren't legally allowed to overtake.

Yawn.

Tool

Ooooh get you 😀

Point the bikers are trying to get across is that unless you have experienced what it's like to be on a bike it is difficult to appreciate the difference in acceleration and manoeuverability compared to a car.

It goes without saying that we know what we're doing, coz bikers are awesome 😉

Point the bikers are trying to get across is that unless you have experienced what it's like to be on a bike it is difficult to appreciate the difference in acceleration and manoeuverability compared to a car.

Always below the speed limit no doubt 😉

* note to self, must use smileys more.. 😛

This thread is ace. Good work fellas. My bike doesnt go over 100 by the way and runs out of puff around a true 85ish. It can still overtake very easily and quickly though.

Tool

Spanner?
Is this a guessing game?

And the speed limits too
FWIW I was riding motorbikes over 30 years ago

So it's "Do what I say, not do as I do" then, from another wannabe copper.... ?
😛

Point the bikers are trying to get across is that unless you have experienced what it's like to be on a bike it is difficult to appreciate the difference in acceleration and manoeuverability compared to a car.

Basically, I know what speed limits are, thanks. I've been done for breaking them in the past (clean license right now though) and I'm fully aware of all the ins and outs of breaking them. Getting on your high horse about them and going on and on and on about it bores me. I really don't give a flying chuff to be honest. Whats that Bible quote? "may the innocent man cast the first stone" or something along those lines? Just give it a rest, eh?

The thing is, riding like a tool (and thereby increasing the likelihood of you being involved in a KSI) does push responsibility onto everyone involved in scraping you off the road, out of a tree, back out of someone's windscreen. It is not simply the victim and his or her immediate family that deals with the consequences of biker's riding like tools. There's a ripple effect that ends up affecting scores of people. But yeah, keep treating the road like it's your racing track. You're awesome!

As I said earlier I'll ride like a tool, but I won't try and justify it or try and push the responsibility on to the car driver. Simples.

Indeed. Agreed. (although I wouldn't say I ride like a tool) Most of our riding is done 2-up these days anyway and I get a punch in the kidneys for being too daft (a small wheelie off the throttle over Ballaugh Bridge got me one of those 🙂 )
But I'll only really open it up when there's nobody around at all. I'm not into showing off or attracting attention (standard bike, legal plate, standard cans, all legal and nice and quiet) I just like to ride bikes for my own enjoyment.
But every car is just a moving road block. I'll be passing you soon enough, you can be sure of that. 🙂

But every car is just a moving road block. I'll be passing you soon enough, you can be sure of that.

There is a skillset to driving fast (or at all) on the road, it's mostly positioning, observation, and planning. When done right, it can make fast feel mundane.

Some folks do a race school or track day and take that skillset to the road, but it's completely unsuited. (An interesting context for Damon
Hill's recent comments?)

As for bikes seeming crazy fast; if everyone drove trucks but for a few odd cars on the road everyone'd think car drivers were nuts, zipping and nipping about at 'incredible' speed.

Swoon

Take the piss if you like, it's just a fact of life, and like I said earlier, one of the main reasons I got
Into bikes in the first place was because I was sick of being stuck in traffic. A regular journey we do of about 50 miles can be done fairly easily 15 minutes quicker on a bike, with no fuss at all.

300

As for bikes seeming crazy fast; if everyone drove trucks but for a few odd cars on the road everyone'd think car drivers were nuts, zipping and nipping about at 'incredible' speed.

That's a very good point actually

But every car is just a moving road block. I'll be passing you soon enough, you can be sure of that.

Anyway, I'm off to hospital with my GF who fractured her scaphoid last night, not in a bike accident BTW 😉

That's a very good point actually

Two wrongs do make a right then?

Ehh? What's that meant to mean? Don't see the relevance to Kumpys comparison, which was nothin to do with right or wrong at all.

*is bemused*

Would others have been critical if PP had worded it differently

I tell it like it is. I don't speak fluent bullshit. 😉

You are in font of me. Very soon you will be behind me

Does that sound any better??

And the speed limits too
FWIW I was riding motorbikes over 30 years ago

So it's "Do what I say, not do as I do" then, from another wannabe copper.... ?

Actually it was mainly off road.I also commuted on a road bike to school and yes I did break the speed limits and did wreckless things. I was 17 and I grew up.Clearly some haven't.

Actually it was mainly off road.I also commuted on a road bike to school and yes I did break the speed limits and did wreckless things. I was 17 and I grew up.Clearly some haven't.

OK, I'll rephrase.

[i]So it's "Do what I say" then, from a perfect driver and wannabe copper...?"[/i]

Better now?

Actually it was mainly off road.I also commuted on a road bike to school and yes I did break the speed limits and did wreckless things. I was 17 and I grew up.Clearly some haven't.

Doing silly speeds isn't necessarily inappropriate. It's the right time and place to an extent.

I think some people forget the speed of accelleration of a 1000cc sportsbike.

By the time you even react, my bike is 100m up the road.

Watch something like this... however honestly it doesn't really give a full perspective

It's nothing to do with "growing up" is it?
It's to do with people that cannot abide to see someone having fun, doing something they can't or just simply getting away with it. It's envy. It's blinkered. It's moral superiority. It's trying to force people to fit in, to do what they are told, to be wrong.

And that's why motorcycles have always succeeded in pissing people off. You see a freedom that you want to take away, to control, to batter down with a better point of view.

And that's why we do it. Because we can. 🙂

But I'll bet nobody, or very few people here feel like I do (I've asked this on STW before, so don't lie to me)
Its a bike. Weather it has an engine or not, weather you wear Lycra, leather, tweed or a suit, they are all one and the same thing to me. I see no difference at all, only minor details.
🙂

The clip of the R1 shows how good the lane discipline is in Germany.

I have a great idea, maybe we could all drive as per the highway code, now if only it would catch on!

Big bikes really have on place on the road these days, too powerfull too fast.

If I get another Sports bike again it will be track only, anything else is pointless. Unless you consider willy waving has some merit.

I had road bikes, I rode them like a "tool" I built a track bike I rode that like a "weapon" I got bored of track days and didnt fancy road racing. I bought an MX bike (again) I ride that like a "spanner"

I have push bikes I "pedal those"

Is there any point to this thread?

Incidentally,

those block white lines indicating no overtaking

No. Solid white lines don't mean "no overtaking," they mean you're not allowed to cross them (except when you have to, say to turn right or pass a stationary obstacle).

PeterPoddy - Member

It's to do with people that cannot abide to see someone having fun, doing something they can't or just simply getting away with it. It's envy. It's blinkered. It's moral superiority. It's trying to force people to fit in, to do what they are told, to be wrong.

And that's why motorcycles have always succeeded in pissing people off. You see a freedom that you want to take away, to control, to batter down with a better point of view.

And that's why we do it. Because we can.

But I'll bet nobody, or very few people here feel like I do (I've asked this on STW before, so don't lie to me)
Its a bike. Weather it has an engine or not, weather you wear Lycra, leather, tweed or a suit, they are all one and the same thing to me. I see no difference at all, only minor details.

I think all that bit is true, as to the growing up bit, having quite literally grown up and to some folks perspective grown old riding all manner of bikes, I'd tender the following personal observations.

I always feel safer on a bike with an engine rather than one without, and the advice I give any younger person taking up the idea of biking on the road is to assume your invisible, whatever you ride, the difference however, the bigger the bike (and its engine) the more road space you can command, none would tolerate you riding either your road or atb down the centre of the road whereas things like Harleys for example can command that by their size & presence. Scooters, mopeds and the like very often can't or get edged over, by bastards in cars.

As to growing up, that gets forced upon you with the years, your reflexes and 'bottle factor' or slightly less of it. They are for risk takers and mostly young men, who will have their thrills, as long as they are prepared for the inevitable (I don't know anyone who hasn't stacked at one time or another) and that it is survivable and hopefully doesn't involve any innocent party, then it's life, live and let live it's their choice.

My first encounter with death was with a motorbike rider.

I was following a transit in my car up a high hedged tight two lane side road (the sort you can get past each other but it's a squeeze) just off the A272. A motorbike came up from behind and overtook me then went to overtake the transit. Sadly the transit was getting towards the end of the straight and to a blind bend. Sods law of course meant a car turned up at exactly the wrong moment, the bike rider braked heavily and flinched across in front of the transit to avoid the car which promtly ran him over. He ended up wrapped around the transit's rear axle with his bike - a horrible mess of contorted limbs. I crawled under the van to be with him until the emergency services turned up but there was no extracting him without heavy machinery or space to check airways or do cpr. No idea if he could hear me or not (I kind of hope not) but he was pronounced dead when the emergency services turned up.

No idea what the point of the story is - it was this guy's judgement that killed him not the machine but since then my thoughts of coveting one diminished rapidly because bluntly I'm not sure I'd trust myself not to do something as ideotic and the cost/benefit ratio don't stack up for me any more. I'm a bit thick skinned/lacking in emotions so dealt with the experience fine - the transit driver was a mess for a while apparently.

My first encounter with death was cancer....

I'm still confused what your point is 🙂

Fair play for doing what you did there convert :S

My first encounter with death was cancer....

My 2nd was cancer - and since then I've taken steps to improve the healthiness of my lifestyle to reduce the chance of that coming too soon - I guess this was a bit the same, kind of!

I'm still confused what your point is

I'm not sure either! I think it was, having seen the consequences of poor riding first hand it helped me make the decision that for me the potential pleasure of owning a bike was not worth the potential risk of me using one like an ejjiot - which knowing my personality I might well do!

The following recipe can be followed to make one generic motorcyclist..

Take a generic pedal cyclist which jumps red lights, hops onto / off pavements as it suits.

Take general "motorist" from car normally having lack of patience, hatred of all other road users.

Add bike with engine, allow modified cyclist to now also travel at twice the highest UK speed limit..

da da.. a motorcyclist..

ps. not all cyclists or motorists fit "general stereotypes" given than many do its no wonder that many motorcyclists are also complete twunts..

Fair play for doing what you did there convert :S

That bit was nothing - it was meeting the wife later and telling the little white lies about him being very peaceful and not looking like he suffered and her just sobbing about telling the kids and how she was going to bring them up on her own that was the hard bit. No idea how the emergency services do that as often as they do.