[Closed] Attention Motorcyclists...

Why is acceptable for your to endanger me by forcably reducing my stopping distance so you can get somewhere quicker?

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren't looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before. So your safe gap has not changed.

You can also see that I'm not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you're looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate. 🙂

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren't looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before.

I never said I was "only" looking at the vehicle in front, but that's what dictates my safe stopping distance. It's the worst case scenario. If you're looking at the car 3 cars ahead and assuming everyone in between wont slam on you're a danger on the road. My safe gap has changed because someone may still run out in front of you, causing you to stop, and even if they only run out in front of the car in front of you I've now got no leeway if your brakes are better than my own as you're in the gap I was using. I don't see why you can't see this is unsafe. What worries me more is you have a license.

You can also see that I'm not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you're looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate.

Fraid not, the ability to see past you does not give me the right to drive up your arse endangering you. Maybe I'll try that next time, I'll just ignore the bike and pretend it doesn't exist. When you're flattened under my car but I've managed to stop short of the car in front we'll see who's laughing eh?

You really don't think thinks through it seems!

Effectively, yes

I'm now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

Who's just said, and I quote, "He's a crazy one, isn't he?"

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it's just basic driving skills isn't it?

I see the roads as a place that involves a bit of give and take from all users, hence why you might let someone waiting out of a junction despite it being your right of way or let that old dear finish crossing the road instead of running her down because she's not on a puffin crossing.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front... afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I'm now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

There's nothing crazy about what I'm saying, it's a simple extrapolation of the situation. If my road position stops you overtaking, yes you do have to wait for my permission. It doesn't mean I'm thinking "I won't let him past". But I think you know that and are just acting stupid for effect.

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

Really? Where did you get that from?

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it's just basic driving skills isn't it?

Yep, it is. Still doesn't make it right for the bike to force their way in.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front... afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I think you're mis-reading my friend. At no point did I say I wouldn't edge back. I just said cutting me up to make progress isn't on or acceptable. But so far I've had two bikers (at least) and a number of car drivers arguing that bikes have the right to cut people up and others should adapt. I'm pretty astounded by this point of view.

The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

While you might make generalisations, I think you'll find that most motorbike riders don't have any better planning and observation other than that afforded them by being higher up. Regardless of whether that's true or not, of course you need to adapt to the situation changing. No-one ever argued that you should just plough on.

Dear god, I do wonder if some people here can read.

Still doesn't make it right for the bike to force their way in

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it's "their right of way".

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

cut people up

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it's "their right of way".

No it's not. Not even close. Please stop jumping to conclusions based on your own biases.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

If people would stop forcing other people to compensate for their rush, the world would be a better place too. I'm very chilled and cooperative on the road, what I dislike (as I'm sick of pointing out now) is when people force me to adapt through blatent aggressive manouvres.

- this I don't agree with, but cutting someone up is an action that results in them having to take an emergency course of action, not just back off and be a bit miffed that they just filtered back in in front of you.

This is the crux of the matter, in your mind at least, then. I'm never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there's space. If they make me brake to maintain a safe distance they've cut in too close, too quick. It's cutting in if you fill a safety space and make other drivers take avoiding action.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

but I have no right to go forcing my way up the queue by cutting people up and expecting them to deal with it.

I think you might find driving a little less challenging if you imagined it to be a "flow" of traffic rather than a "queue".

You're either part of the problem or part of the solution and I'm pretty sure from your replies which category you fall into.

The group of bikers I allowed to pass me this morning by positioning myself as far on the left as was deemed safe were clear in their gratitude. If they had tried to push me around my reaction would have been different.

Thankyou, finally.

I think you might find driving a little less challenging if you imagined it to be a "flow" of traffic rather than a "queue".

I don't find driving challenging. And changing words makes no odds except in your head.

You're either part of the problem or part of the solution and I'm pretty sure from your replies which category you fall into.

What problem is that? Nice platitudes, shame they're meaningless.

Hadn't noticed PP or TJ advocating aggressive or dangerous driving, which is the only reason I pitched in. I have no bias, I have owned a motorbike/car and bicycle.. not a horse tho! 🙂

Having realised you are at that defensive point in your replies to the posts on this thread I am going to bow out!

what I dislike (as I'm sick of pointing out now) is when people force me to adapt through blatent aggressive manouvres.

The thing is coffeeking, if I go for the overtake and have to pull in to the gap infront of you, and you don't react by increasing the gap to accommodate me, you are effectively trying to force me into oncoming traffic. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do?

Having realised you are at that defensive point in your replies to the posts on this thread I am going to bow out!

I'm only defensive when people make personal assumptinos about my driving and skills without knowing me and without looking at what's really being said/argued.

What happened in this thread was this:
1) OP posts, kinda got lost now...
2) I post 2 things that annoy me
3) TJ assumes all bikes have the right to fill any gap they see
4) I point out it's not safe to fill a safe gap
5) PP and TJ argue it is and try to re-target their argument on the way, trying to make it look like I'm anti-filtering and dislike anyone passing me
6) detritus gets picked up along the way arguing that clearly I don't like filtering

Chinese whispers. The point got lost long ago on most people who got overly emotional instead of looking at it plainly.

The thing is coffeeking, if I go for the overtake and have to pull in to the gap infront of you, and you don't react by increasing the gap to accommodate me, you are effectively trying to force me into oncoming traffic. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do?

I never once said I wouldn't fall back. Where are you getting this tat from? I suggest you re-read the thread.

What I AM saying is that if you go for an overtake and can't see far enough and get forced into the gap in front of me making me brake to maintain safe room, you're acting like an aggressive moron.

I don't find driving challenging. And changing words makes no odds except in your head.

Flow and queue have quite different meanings. Learn the difference, improve your driving experience and the driving experience of those around you.

So how big a gap is safe to overtake into?

When you are faced with a long A-road journey and a queue of cars (10+) travelling 20mph below the speed limit what do you do?

Personally I never try and force a gap, its dangerous and inconsiderate. But if someone is leaving a sensible gap in a queue of cars (10 car lenghts say) I'll use it to get two or three cars up the queue while I plan my next move up to the next gap.

If you don't take this approach you would just be resigned to joining the 40mph train as the opportunities to pass a 400 metre snake of slow cars is rare indeed

Flow and queue have quite different meanings. Learn the difference, improve your driving experience and the driving experience of those around you.

I'm sorry, but you really are talking [s]bollocks[/s] semantics now - it's a bit pointless. Either way it's a progressing line of vehicles with a safe distance between them. Whether you like to call it a flow or a queue or Phillis, I don't really care, it doesn't alter how the drivers react.

So how big a gap is safe to overtake into?

When you are faced with a long A-road journey and a queue of cars (10+) travelling 20mph below the speed limit what do you do?

Personally I never try and force a gap, its dangerous and inconsiderate. But if someone is leaving a sensible gap in a queue of cars (10 car lenghts say) I'll use it to get two or three cars up the queue while I plan my next move up to the next gap.

If you don't take this approach you would just be resigned to joining the 40mph train as the opportunities to pass a 400 metre snake of slow cars is rare indeed

Without seeing the speeds and distances involved that's hard to say, but one would assume that if you're not forcing a gap the gap is presumably larger than just the stopping distance of the car you overtake. Which seems sensible to me (and apparently you too)?

Very often if I see bikes a few cars behind in a long queue I'll leave a good few stopping distances ahead to let them get in and on, if I'm not planning to go myself. Why slow someone down if you don't have to? if I've not left that long distance I'm going to be cheesed off if they force me to move.

I never once said I wouldn't fall back. Where are you getting this tat from? I suggest you re-read the thread.

I assumed if I overtook when you hadn't "invited" me to it would either result in you not opening the gap or sitting there in your car getting worked up about the "maneuver" that had just been pulled on you. I may have come to the wrong conclusion there and I hope I have as neither result benefit anyone on the roads.

I'm sorry, but you really are talking bollocks semantics now - it's a bit pointless. Either way it's a progressing line of vehicles with a safe distance between them. Whether you like to call it a flow or a queue or Phillis, I don't really care, it doesn't alter how the drivers react.

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

I assumed if I overtook when you hadn't "invited" me to it would either result in you not opening the gap or sitting there in your car getting worked up about the "maneuver" that had just been pulled on you. I may have come to the wrong conclusion there and I hope I have as neither result benefit anyone on the roads.

Yes, you have. Apology accepted. Yes I get a bit cheesed off by the stunt you pulled, but not "worked up". All that is in your own imagination.

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

Again, that's just how you're imagining things. Please don't push your own assumptions on how wordings affect your way of thinking about things on other folk. I approach a queue of traffic in much the same way you approach a flow. Only I don't get worried about naming it in a friendly manner.

Again, that's just how you're imagining things. Please don't push your own assumptions on how wordings affect your way of thinking about things on other folk.

I think you have cause and affect confused here. Anyway, I'm sure it'll be a pleasure to overtake you.

There's nothing crazy about what I'm saying, it's a simple extrapolation of the situation

Indeed it is. You are correct. I shouldn't overtake without your express permission which I have to gauge has been given by the gap you deem to give me

But in actual fact I'll make my own decision as to what is safe and what isn't. If that means I sit in a gap you deem hasn't given me permission for 10 or 20 seconds, that's what I'll do. I'll make that decision based on experience and my training. I'll 'ride my own ride' and if you can't deal with that, tough.

That said, fancy coming out for a pillion ride? Just to give you an idea of what you're arguing against? Genuine offer.

I think you have cause and effect confused here.

Anyway, I'm sure it'll be a pleasure to overtake you.

I'm sure it will, I'm stuck in my diesel for now - it rarely has the guts to overtake anything so I'm generally found at the back of a flow just enjoying the ride. 🙂

What coffeeking seems to be saying (feel free to correct correct me, especially if you ARE coffeeking) is that you should only overtake and pull in front of a vehicle that has a gap in front of it of at least twice the stopping/thinking distance.?

Yep, it is. Still doesn't make it right for the bike to force their way in.

[b]I'M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b]

But in actual fact I'll make my own decision as to what is safe and what isn't. If that means I sit in a gap you deem hasn't given me permission for 10 or 20 seconds, that's what I'll do. I'll make that decision based on experience and my training. I'll 'ride my own ride' and if you can't deal with that, tough.

That said, fancy coming out for a pillion ride? Just to give you an idea of what you're arguing against? Genuine offer.

I'm not arguing "against" anything! An no ta, I dislike not having control over my own life/death situations as you might have guessed! But thanks for the offer (I have ridden bikes before though, though I can see the assumption is that I haven't). 😀

What coffeeking seems to be saying (feel free to correct correct me, especially if you ARE coffeeking) is that you should only overtake and pull in front of a vehicle that has a gap in front of it of at least twice the stopping/thinking distance.?

Not quite, if you wish to pull in at the far end of a gap that's a stopping distance plus some nominal amount then that's fine, you're only reducing your own stopping distance, not mine.

I'M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If stopped, yes you could fit a nice 44 tonner in there. At 40-50-60mph you've taken my safe stopping distance away (by force). I'm sure we've all done it at some point. Doesn't make it right.

I'M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

Its not that daft a suggestion

Queues only occur in specific situations, like behind a tractor.

Flow as you define it is closer to the reality of what happens.

Although its more like this:

Head of queue(Mr 41mph or genuine slow vehicle)
Car up his arse
Car up his arse(they [i]look[/i] like they want to overtake but they can't be that serious about it because they can't see to overtake from where they are and if they really were going to overtake they would have already got on with it and there wouldn't be a big queue)

Car (leaving sensible gap)
Car up his arse
Car up his arse
etc
etc

Into this melee you arrive with 40 miles of unbroken single carraigeway to coomplete you journey.

I'm sure the sensible guy would rather I left his "gap" unmolested some of them might even resent me making progress and having to drop back a bit to maintain his sensible gap but going to make progress anyway and use the [b]safe and sensible[/b] gaps that are available to me.

I think you'll find that most motorbike riders don't have any better planning and observation other than that afforded them by being higher up

Mostly, yes, agreed. But that one simple thing is such a massive advantage it's hard to overstate. Vision is EVERYTHING. In a car I almost feel like I'm driving with my eyes closed 50% of the time, if you like. The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go. You can't do that in a car because you don't have half the overtaking squirt.
It's quite often you can be in a fast moving line of cars and someone slows to turn in maybe 10 or more cars ahead and you can slow (if necessary) before the 2nd or 3rd car back does, or plan an overtake of all or some of the cars inbetween if possible, whilst they are bunching up and slowing (shorter time over the white line, see?)

I'm sure the sensible guy would rather I left his "gap" unmolested some of them might even resent me making progress and having to drop back a bit to maintain his sensible gap but going to make progress anyway and use the safe and sensible gaps that are available to me.

And that's the crux of it. You're going to make progress whether anyone else likes it or not. By filling the sensible gap you're making it dangerous until the car has chance to back off and make it sensible again as you now clearly think he must do because you want to make faster progress?

Mostly, yes, agreed. But that one simple thing is such a massive advantage it's hard to overstate. Vision is EVERYTHING. In a car I almost feel like I'm driving with my eyes closed 50% of the time, if you like. The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go. You can't do that in a car because you don't have half the overtaking squirt.
It's quite often you can be in a fast moving line of cars and someone slows to turn in maybe 10 or more cars ahead and you can slow (if necessary) before the 2nd or 3rd car back does, or plan an overtake of all or some of the cars inbetween if possible, whilst they are bunching up and slowing (shorter time over the white line, see?)

At no point have I said it's not an advantage? What I've said is you've caused the person you overtook to be disadvantaged. You may be safer, but you're not thinking of others.

The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go.

Hasn't it already been agreed that this fifty yards gap is to provide a suitable braking distance and anything entering this gap is creating a danger for themselves?

No. I do not agree. Not do the IAM for what it's worth. The advanced instructors I went out with would use gaps that, frankly, didn't exist. I don't use gaps that small, I'm not in that much of a rush, but when you can see what's ahead, you can see that nobody is going to be stopping see? So, again, what looks unsafe from a car behind is all nice and relaxed from a bikes point of view. This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It's not like driving a car.

Sometimes when it seems its the rest of the world, it isn't, its you.

This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It's not like driving a car.

By filling the sensible gap you're making it dangerous until the car has chance to back off and make it sensible again

See this is what shows me you don't understand. It's pointless (but entertaining) arguing with you because you are so blinkered. Get out on a bike with a good safe rider for a while. Do it. Try and open your mind and learn. 🙂

No. I do not agree. Not do the IAM for what it's worth. The advanced instructors I went out with would use gaps that, frankly, didn't exist. I don't use gaps that small, I'm not in that much of a rush, but when you can see what's ahead, you can see that nobody is going to be stopping see? So, again, what looks unsafe from a car behind is all nice and relaxed from a bikes point of view. This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It's not like driving a car.

OK, you don't agree. If IAM members or instructors were using gaps that didn't exist I would suggest they were playing on their qualifications to claim superiority while acting like a fool. It's very common with IAM members.

Sometimes when it seems its the rest of the world, it isn't, its you.

Just a thought,

I'm never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there's space.

Have you considered leaving a larger braking distance between yourself and the vehicle in front? That way bikes can filter past and be on their way, you remain permanently unmiffed, and you can use the larger distance to absorb fluctuations in the speed of traffic flow which would otherwise cause you to have to inconveniently adjust your speed occasionally. You're happy, everyone else is happy, and the roads are safer all round to boot.

Some would call it inconsiderate

Understood. But I call it blinkered. Its lack of understanding not lack of consideration.

Have you considered leaving a larger braking distance between yourself and the vehicle in front? That way bikes can filter past and be on their way

Why should I leave a massive gap, when I have enough room to absorb fluctuations in traffic flow already? Just so that other road users can drive like idiots?

Understood. But I call it blinkered. Its lack of understanding not lack of consideration.

Im' not sure why you think that's any different?

The difference in performance and vision. Thats the bit you do not understand.

I filter ALL THE TIME. At every single available safe opportunity, without any hesitation whatsoever. The layout of the road has absolutely bugger all to do with it. If there's cars, and a safe gap, I'm in it. Filtering is at least 1/3 of the reason I got into motorcycling in the first place. Why do you even need to know what the junction looks like? You just don't. Look as far ahead as you can see at ALL times and make a decision based on that. If you can't get to the front, stop before you get there. If the traffic starts to move off, look for a gap opening up and slide into it (and wave or nod nicely if anyone lets you in) All it takes is practice. And not much at that.
As TJ will agree, you never need to 'know the road' if you know what you're doing. It makes no difference.

Understood. But I call it blinkered. Its lack of understanding not lack of consideration.

Thats the bit you do not understand.

See this is what shows me you don't understand. It's pointless (but entertaining) arguing with you because you are so blinkered. Get out on a bike with a good safe rider for a while. Do it. Try and open your mind and learn.

I see, so my disagreeing with your point means I don't understand? It can't be that I do understand and just have a different opinion based on the same evidence you see? You have an odd way of viewing these discussions.

The difference in performance and vision. Thats the bit you do not understand.

Again, the bikes performance and vision have sweet FA to do with whether or not you put me in danger if you cut in early. In fact it's a clear indication of the superiority complex many motorcyclists seem to have, yet at the same time clear indication of why such people don't think about anyone but themselves. You might be able to react and brake because you can see over the car in front. I won't have any gap to react to your braking, until I've braked and re-gained the safe distance you took away.

Get out on a bike with a good safe rider for a while.

Do you not get bored? Can you not form a cogent argument, leaving you with only platitudes to fill the void?

Nope. I'll be out there riding my bike. I'll leave formation of cogent argument for things that matter, not arguing with an internet warrior.

Going back to page one; the CG125 was designed for Asia to carry an average of 4 people 😯

Nope. I'll be out there riding my bike. I'll leave formation of cogent argument for things that matter, not arguing with an internet warrior.

And there we go, a hat-trick. 😆

Enjoy the ride!

Why should I leave a massive gap, when I have enough room to absorb fluctuations in traffic flow already?

Because

I'm never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there's space.

Why wouldn't you drive in a manner which ensures you never get miffed?

I've been thinking about this, and I'm finding it difficult to visualise how you're leaving a large enough space to absorb traffic fluctuations whilst still keeping sufficient braking distance, yet so small that a bike can't fit in without cutting you up. I appreciate that they're unacceptably decreasing your braking distance (for the few seconds they're there before moving on) but "cutting up" implies they're squeezing into a small gap which seems at odds with your description.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm finding it difficult to visualise how you're leaving a large enough space to absorb traffic fluctuations whilst still keeping sufficient braking distance, yet so small that a bike can't fit in without cutting you up. I appreciate that they're unacceptably decreasing your braking distance (for the few seconds they're there before moving on) but "cutting up" implies they're squeezing into a small gap which seems at odds with your description.

I accept a momentary slight shortening of my braking distance when absorbing traffic fluctuations, it's never more than a couple of metres as it's fairly easy to speed match. Plonk a bike in there at the half-way point and THEY need their stopping distance and I need mine, so it's not just the length of the bike or a few metres, but the added stopping distance they then slow down to aquire too. (i.e. for the sake of argument, two stopping distances, which at 50 as calculated earlier could be another 50 yards)

Why wouldn't you drive in a manner which ensures you never get miffed?

I'd get miffed at having to drive to accomodate other people's miff-inducing driving! Why can't people just drive sensibly, instead of forcing me to either drive with huge gaps or make gaps for them?

Sure. But that's not "cutting you up," is it.

Sure. But that's not "cutting you up," is it.

Forcing me to brake to get my stopping distance back isn't cutting me up?

Riddle me this. You're cruising down the motorway at 70, inside lane, someone comes past you and pulls in a couple of car lengths ahead of you waiting for the next exit. Assuming you sensibly brake to increase your stoppign distance do you a) congratulate him on his making progress despite forcing you to brake or b)raise an eyebrow at his leaving overtaking and pulling in to the last minute? I think I'm b).

I'd get miffed at having to drive to accomodate other people's miff-inducing driving! Why can't people just drive sensibly, instead of forcing me to either drive with huge gaps or make gaps for them?

Coffeeking

I really REALLY don't follow your logic or argument.

It has been questioned earlier but are you really saying that no-one is allowed to overtake you unless [b]you[/b] have had the foresight, immediately prior to being overtaken, to double the gap between you and the vehicle in front?

Surely that would cause you more angst than simply dropping back a bit once a bike or car has gone safely past. After all, especially with a motorbike, it is likely to be past the car in front quite quickly anyway.

Unfortunately when on a bike I will jump into these spaces and overtake quickly, but I wouldn't dream of having a pop at you because you consider me inconsiderate. I would apologise, go on my merry way and change nothing because I'm a __________ .

And I'd respect you for at least admitting it! 😆

It has been questioned earlier but are you really saying that no-one is allowed to overtake you unless you have had the foresight, immediately prior to being overtaken, to double the gap between you and the vehicle in front?

I'm not saying anyone isn't allowed to do anything. I'm just saying it's inconsiderate and dangerous to overtake where there isn't sufficient space to pull in without forcing people to brake. It's baffling me that people are arguing the contrary.

Surely that would cause you more angst than simply dropping back a bit once a bike or car has gone safely past. After all, especially with a motorbike, it is likely to be past the car in front quite quickly anyway.

Don't mistake my consistent defense of my point as angst or obsessive argument. I just don't change my opinion without reasonable evidence to the contrary, none of which has been presented. So far all that I see having been presented (apart from the mis-understanding folk who jumped in part way without reading fully) is bikers saying "you might as well drop back when I've forced you to, it's easy enough" and "Bikes and bikers are far superior, therefore my cutting in in front of you doesn't matter because we're safe". Paraphrased, of course.

If I can't (or don't want to) overtake the vehicle in front I'll often leave a large space for the faster/more motivated drivers.

What I have noticed recently is that motorcyclists are less likely to acknowledge when I pull over to the left to let them squeeze past, easing their overtake. When I was riding motorbikes, that sort of behaviour was both welcomed and thanked.

I'd get miffed at having to drive to accomodate other people's miff-inducing driving! Why can't people just drive sensibly, instead of forcing me to either drive with huge gaps or make gaps for them?

Interesting that you're arguing for consideration. Consider, who's most inconvenienced by other road users' inconsiderate driving?

1) The car driver who has to momentarily slow down slightly to allow a bike to pass safely before returning to his original position.

2) The bike stuck behind traffic that he could otherwise easily pass and be on his way but for the car in front being too close to the next one.

I'm not arguing in favour of driving / riding like a hooligan, I'm just struggling to understand why this is such an issue for you. It seems remarkably petty.

If I can't (or don't want to) overtake the vehicle in front I'll often leave a large space for the faster/more motivated drivers.

Snap, as said about two pages ago 🙂

What I have noticed recently is that motorcyclists are less likely to acknowledge when I pull over to the left to let them squeeze past, easing their overtake. When I was riding motorbikes, that sort of behaviour was both welcomed and thanked.

And I'd respect you for at least admitting it!

I'm just saying it's inconsiderate and dangerous to overtake where there isn't sufficient space to pull in without forcing people to brake. It's baffling me that people are arguing the contrary.

I'm not saying anyone isn't allowed to do anything. I'm just saying it's inconsiderate and dangerous to overtake where there isn't sufficient space to pull in without forcing people to brake

I think you are being a bit over-zealous on this one and don't appear to know the difference between braking and lifting your foot off the accelerator for a few moments in order to safely restore the gap in which you feel safe. I would also question that by braking immediately to restore the gap you are probably far more likely to cause an accident by forcing cars behind you to also brake.

Interesting that you're arguing for consideration. Consider, who's most inconvenienced by other road users' inconsiderate driving?

1) The car driver who has to momentarily slow down slightly to allow a bike to pass safely before returning to his original position.

2) The bike stuck behind traffic that he could otherwise easily pass and be on his way but for the car in front being too close to the next one.

I'm not arguing in favour of driving / riding like a hooligan, I'm just struggling to understand why this is such an issue for you. It seems remarkably petty.

I'm not arguing about being slowed, I'm arguing about having my safety compromised for someone elses progress. I don't feel that's petty, do you?

I do quite a lot of driving and riding in a 'making progress' mode and if I followed your 'advice' it would be quite a challenge to overtake anyone on certain roads.

We all find it a bit of a challenge to make progress on some roads, be it a car or a bike. Again, what you're saying is you'll compromise basic safety to make progress faster.

I think you are being a bit over-zealous on this one and don't appear to know the difference between braking and lifting your foot off the accelerator for a few moments in order to safely restore the gap which you feel safe.

That's your opinion, next time I'll let off the throttle rather than dabbing the brake lightly and hope that in the 15 seconds or so it takes for me to drop back to a safe distance you don't come acropper and end up as paste under my wheels. Should I make that assumption of all bikers? Someone inform the lawmakers that all bikers are willing to turn the laws around and not blame cars who run into the back of them. If you want to pull in on the bumper of the car in front of me, knock yourself out - I won't complain.

I would also question that by braking immediately to restore the gap you are probably far more likely to cause an accident by forcing cars behind you to also brake.

Only if it actually was in any significant degree - it isn't.

I think you are being a bit over-zealous on this one

no, I think it is you that is wrong here - it is fine to overtake and then pull it as long as it is your braking distance that is compromised, not the guy you have just overtaken.

If you overtook me and pulled in, cutting my braking distance short, and then something happened and I had to brake and ended up hitting you then it would be seen as my fault for not leaving enough gap - which is clearly not the case.

I doubt that you would 'fess up to the insurance either to accept liability. If you would then I would have thought that you would be in the minority.

Only if it actually was in any significant degree - it isn't.

how do you know it isn't - pray?

If he had to brake to keep safe distance then it was significant.

Forcing me to brake to get my stopping distance back isn't cutting me up?

Well, yes, it is, but is that what we're talking about? You're pootling along minding your own business, with plenty of braking distance between yourself and the car in front, a bike overtakes and slots in front of you, and you have to hit the middle pedal? Really?

Either you're changing what you're describing, I'm totally misunderstanding you, or you need to work on your observation.

Riddle me this. You're cruising down the motorway at 70, inside lane, someone comes past you and pulls in a couple of car lengths ahead of you waiting for the next exit. Assuming you sensibly brake to increase your stoppign distance do you a) congratulate him on his making progress despite forcing you to brake or b)raise an eyebrow at his leaving overtaking and pulling in to the last minute? I think I'm b).

I'd think b) of course, but this seems to be an entirely different example all of a sudden.

If you overtook me and pulled in, cutting my braking distance short, and then something happened and I had to brake and ended up hitting you then it would be seen as my fault for not leaving enough gap - which is clearly not the case.

How about anticipating the manoeuvre and start dropping back as you are being overtaken by a faster vehicle? That is common road sense.

Ah, but that's inconvenient remember.

How about anticipating the manoeuvre and start dropping back as you are being overtaken by a faster vehicle?

Ah, but that's inconvenient remember.

How about chilling out and waiting until you can overtake, all the vehicles that are slowing you down, in one go?

How about anticipating the manoeuvre and start dropping back as you are being overtaken by a faster vehicle? That is common road sense. There are things on cars called mirrors and if you use them it is fairly easy to anticipate and take appropriate action to ensure both your own and other road users safety.

you must be taking the p1ss now...

Much safer DS, I shall try that next time I'm on the A68 stuck behind 2 camper vans, a truck and Doris and Fred out for a Sunday drive and attached to each others bumpers by an elastic band

How about anticipating the manoeuvre and start dropping back as you are being overtaken by a faster vehicle? That is common road sense.

If something wants to overtake me, it's fine, I can live with it, and my ego normally recovers after a good sing-song to the radio. I do tend to maintain my road speed though, as the manoeuvre is the overtaker's - it's up to him to get past. If he's overtaking, then changes his mind and goes to pull back in, and in the meantime I'm displaying "common sense" by slowing down too, then we're a both a ****ayed aren't we?

Having said that, if a donorbike comes up behind me, I'll normally wander to the left so he can get past - if he gives me a little wave of his nicely power-rangered up little bootie, then I give him a smile, a cheery wave and a wink if I think he might fancy me. Everyone's happy, and someone else can live with the consequences of scraping him up - I'd rather not thanks.

We all have to share the tarmac, we just need to chill out a bit. 🙂

there are countless dozens of idiots on crotch rockets who are not.

If you want to be taken seriously in a debate with motorcyclists, using the term 'crotch rocket' will win you no points. It just makes you sound like a Daily Mail reader.

Unless you've ridden bikes, you simply don't understand the contemptuous ease with which you can get past [i]anything[/i] with four wheels, unless you happen across a Veyron on a regular basis. So the question is, why on earth would any sane person sit there in a queue of badly-driven econoboxes all doing 48mph in a 60 zone, when you can do one or two overtakes and get past all ten of the trundling diesel Golfs.

OK, they're not all diesel Golfs (quite often it's a Hyundai, driver comatose at the wheel). But just because [i]they[/i] don't want to go any faster, why should everyone else wait? If you're in a car you may well not have the acceleration or visibility to get past, but just 'cos someone with a faster vehicle does have that power, why get all grumpy over it? I leave additional space if I look in my mirrors and see bikers, precisely because I drive a 3 tonne truck and can overtake very few people - so I assume that others will want to get past me and the mobile chicane blocking my way.

The idiots who flash past at 120mph leaving no margin for error are fools, obviously, but all of us, regardless of the number of wheels used, can agree with that.

you must be taking the p1ss now...

nickf, you start with this little preach:

[i]If you want to be taken seriously in a debate with motorcyclists, using the term 'crotch rocket' will win you no points. It just makes you sound like a Daily Mail reader.[/i]

Then your next paragraph mentions "contemptuous ease"; then there's "badly driven econoboxes", whatever TF, "econobox" is supposed to mean. Then there's the implied insult of drivers of various models, etc. etc. A bit "Top Gear" I'd say.

Which part?

that I have to keep an eye out in case you are going to overtake me - I don't remember this being taught in the highway code.

Please show me the section.

I rather think that if you passed me and caused me to brake because of your driving, it would be you that failed your driving test, not me.

I remember trying my best not to overtake when doing my driving test. 🙂

that I have to keep an eye out in case you are going to overtake me - I don't remember this being taught in the highway code.