[Closed] Athletics doping: Wada recommends Russia suspension

You put a paper chasing, ineffectual "spy" in charge of the country - an apparatchik of an unregulated, unmonitored secret service and for some reason the country turns to cack.

Well, it's beyond me how that happened.

Dark days for Russia. Sad days for proud Russians.

It added that there was “no reason to believe athletics is the only sport in Russia to have been affected”.

Given Katusha and Astana it may be cycling doesn't get off lightly either

Astana are registered in Kazakhstan.

Wonder whether the average Russian sees this and thinks:

a) "That rings true, I wouldn't put it past them the dirty cheating gits"

b) "Typical stirring from a Western controlled agency trying to discredit honest Russian sportspeople and officials"

State sponsored and approved doping - The Russian Sports Minister is alleged to have ordered samples to be manipulated, is a FIFA exec member and leads their World Cup Organising committee.
That the IAAF and FIFA could manage to 'overlook/hide' the wrong doings exposed of late is pretty staggering.

Put in will just send the 'troops' and annexe Brazil next summer.

Wonder whether the average Russian sees this and thinks:
a) "That rings true, I wouldn't put it past them the dirty cheating gits"
b) "Typical stirring from a Western controlled agency trying to discredit honest Russian sportspeople and officials"

Wonder whether the average Russian sees this and thinks:

a) "That rings true, I wouldn't put it past them the dirty cheating gits"

b) "Typical stirring from a Western controlled agency trying to discredit honest Russian sportspeople and officials"

i would venture c)

"yeah they probably cheated. But so did Lance Armstrong and all those Jamaican sprinters and they don't ban those countries..." etc etc etc

I'm struggling to see how Coe can take the moral high ground here when he was the vice President at the time, but it seems to have come as a complete surprise.

Oh well at least with Lord Coe in charge we'll get to the bottom of it 🙄 As not only does he refuse to give up his relationship with Nike, but he is a big fan of both dodgy Salazar and corrupt Diack.

Athletic is as bad a mess as cycling was under HV & LA, the whole thing is dodgy as ****.

If all this was happening on his watch then he's certainly got some serious explaining to do.

I've never been a fan of Coe and his whiter than white image that he projects. He just seems too polished for my tastes.

Its been said by many that cycling couldnt have been the only sport where doping had/has been rife. Its about time the IAAF, IOC and others had their blinkers removed. It will be interesting to hear which high profile athletes get investigated and are proven to be cheats. I bet there are a few out there bricking themselves.

I'm not surprised that the "cold war" attitude still apparently prevails in Russia (as per Dick Pound's quote in answer to a question....) now, the big question is just how rotten athletics and other sports are. I believe that almost every elite athlete (in any sport) sails as close to the wind as they can - Radcliffe, Wiggins, Froome, Hamilton, Murray etc I'm looking at you....

I think its safe to assume that every sport is up to it's neck in doping, the more money the sport makes, the higher up the chain coverups and kickbacks go.

Coe is either wilfully ignorant or complicit, it worked for Rebekah Brooks after all!
Im sure he wouldnt want the london olympic bid scrutinised too closely either

Russia will brush it off as a deliberate attempt to besmirch their good name, smug as Putin with a puppy that its too late to take the 2018 world cup back off them too

Is anybody actually surprised by this?

I'm not, all sports have been riddled with drugs, have been for decades and will continue to be so for decades to come.

I'm struggling to see how Coe can take the moral high ground here when he was the vice President at the time, but it seems to have come as a complete surprise.

He seemed to think it's all the media's fault. Wonder if he'll change his tune...

[i]When asked about the possibility of kicking Russia out of international competitions, Lord Coe told BBC Radio 5 live's Sportsweek on Sunday that his instinct was "engagement rather than isolation".[/i]

so that's no then...

Russia should be banned once every other country has been similarly scrutinised so that they can all be treated equally.

If you ever want to know how FIFA, IAAF etc. became so corrupt then it's worth looking into the history of Horst Dassler and even though he died in the late 80's his influence is still huge. For instance John Boulter one of his right hand men was hired as a consultant on the London 2012 bid.

Its been said by many that cycling couldnt have been the only sport where doping had/has been rife. Its about time the IAAF, IOC and others had their blinkers removed. It will be interesting to hear which high profile athletes get investigated and are proven to be cheats. I bet there are a few out there bricking themselves.

Operación Puerto had Spanish football teams and some individual tennis players in its sights, before the investigation was killed by the Powers That Be.

(Nadal, FC Barcelona, Madrid)

[i]Russia should be banned once every other country has been similarly scrutinised[/i]

Starting with Kenya...

An ex-athlete (missed the name) on radio 5 live has just said that 'Athletics is like banking, it's too big to fail'. They really should get some perspective, it's a bunch of people taking drugs so they can run faster. I think people will get over it.

I suspect if the russian sports minister is involved in covering up that sets the bar quite high in the international corruption league

I suspect if the russian sports minister is involved in covering up that sets the bar quite high in the international corruption league

been going on for decades in weight lifting, whole teams have failed drug tests for the same drugs and still come back 2 years later.

dragon - Member
Oh well at least with Lord Coe in charge we'll get to the bottom of it As not only does he refuse to give up his relationship with Nike, but he is a big fan of both dodgy Salazar and corrupt Diack.

Athletic is as bad a mess as cycling was under HV & LA, the whole thing is dodgy as ****.
Also supported, overlooked and never challenged.

^^ this +1

Taken a long time for them to start acting to clean up the sport, this is just the start I think

Raising the debate up a little, it strikes me that a lot of scandals, decades old, seem to have come out into the open in the last five years. Not just sport. Could it be we'll look back in time and see this era as the beginning of a new transparency?

After all, power corrupts, money is power and men have been corrupt since Roman and Greek times, it's human nature, so corruption has always been going on but now it seems harder to cover it up.

It seems to coincide with social media and widespread use of computers and email - I guess its much easier for investigators to find written evidence, much harder/impossible for perpetrators to destroy it, and much easier for whistleblowers to get the information out in the first place as well as public opinion being given a collective voice/able to take direct action...

A few spring to mind:
Armstrong finally confessing
All the BBC and MP paedophilia/Saville
News International - although you might debate whether that's actually been stopped!
Snowden
FA
Arab Spring (although now back under authoritarian control)
Bernie Madoff
Financial crisis in general - we know bankers sail close to the wind as normal activity but there was plenty of evidence for Libor and Forex which may have been easier to hide in the past
VW
Horsemeat
Tesco

Raising the debate up a little, it strikes me that a lot of scandals, decades old, seem to have come out into the open in the last five years. Not just sport. Could it be we'll look back in time and see this era as the beginning of a new transparency?

On a related point, social media has meant that protest and the reaction to scandal is far quicker and more coherent than it ever used to be. At times, the virtual pitchforks can be a tremendous force for good, at other times, it's a witch hunt.

Could it be we'll look back in time and see this era as the beginning of a new transparency?

No, its just the same old same old. Even in this case they have pulled a political trick, limited the scope of the investigation into the allegations about Russia, ring fencing the problem around the accusations that were already in the wild, while turning a blind eye elsewhere.

As many athletes have said today, not surprising but perhaps the scale is shocking and the fact that IAAF head took bribes to hush it up.

This will be a big challenge for Seb, he will be the one as Pesident of the IAAF to carry a vote of the council through to enact any ban. I believe the IOC will be the one to take a decision about the Rio games. I very much hope Russia is banned from Rio and all IAAF competition for quite some time.

Of course it's possible for Seb to have been unaware of the bribes, I am certain he was suspicious but also aware of the wada investigation so would sit tight and win the IAAF presidency and now he can act. Aside from his gold medals and the wonderful London olymlics this could be Seb Coe's legacy

The ex head of the Russian athletics federation is now running their football World Cup organisation, with a new FIFA president due in Feb there could well be pressure to take action around the award of the tournament and doping.

Bollocks! He attacked the revelations right from the off and claimed athletics was clean except a few bad eggs. He is at the top of an organisation desperately trying to keep a lid on the state of Kenyan, Jamaican and Ethiopian drug abuse and has shown no willingness at all to tackle the problem.

The legacy of the London olympics has been nothing but lies, and he will again prove his disdain for grass roots sports by working for the powers at the top rather than the sport as a whole.

What with all those money in sports?

Sports is rather overrated innit!

I think most people realised the measure of the man when he wouldn't give up his sponsorship with Nike.

Coe on C4 news now, seems to have taken his cues from Sepp Blatter

Of course it's possible for Seb to have been unaware of the bribes,

As a legal defence its got a 50/50 chance, bu

[img] [/img]
But his reputation is already ruined, as we've seen him try and burry his head in the sand, for years
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2002/feb/09/athletics
And up until a week ago he was calling the Times and others part of 'Malicious Media Campaign'

His response to the investigation last year was straight out of the Lance Armstrong book of integrity in sport

It is a declaration of war on my sport. I take pretty grave exception to that.

There is nothing in our history of competence and integrity in drug-testing that warrants this kind of attack.

We should not be cowering. We should come out fighting.

Nobody should underestimate the anger at the way our sport has been portrayed.

The fightback has to start here. We cannot be portrayed as a sport that is in any way dragging our heels.

Pretty damning the real issue will be whether they actually act or whether they do a FIFA /Blatter UCI to it

Putin press conferences should be amusing on this as he blames western lies for this

Ce has some credibility in that no one thinks he personally cheated but the organisation is clearly pretty close to unfit for purpose

Very good post MSP.

Somewhat gladdened by the lack of surprise in the posts so far.

Lord Coe's first instinct is towards politics and diplomacy. Smoothing the waters, being a convincing looking figurehead, effusive with praise for the establishment.

The guy has been second in charge for years, and had no idea, or no compulsion to investigate that this was going on? That alone proves that he's not the right man to be in charge going forwards.

Ignorance is not an excuse in this instance, it's just a measure of incompetence.

Looking at athletics as a sport? If this kind of scandal hit another Olympic sport, let's say Judo, then it would likely be chucked out for not being compliant with the IOC code.

Unfortunately the way it's looking this time is a few months ban for Russia to say they've changed things, and fire a few scapegoats, before taking their place at Rio.

“The idea that my sport sat there either covering up wrongdoing or just being incompetent could not be wider of the mark.”

At best Coe comes across as painfully naive, out of the loop.

It seems that the head of the uk anti doping organisation only thinks that it is something those foreign chaps do. Good to see we have such a relentless bloodhound on the case 🙄

Coe is doing a McQuaid/Blatter. First step, no, nothing to see here, all lies. Second step, blame a media witch hunt. Third step, we test more than anyone else but there are a few bad eggs. Fourth step, house comes down, ran away.

Where to start with voicing my opinions on all of this!? Money, power, corruption, greed, arrogance and unaccountability.

Sport in general, in this instance is seemingly riddled with self-serving wrong doers who believe themselves to be above the law. Politics, media, law enforcement, finance, industry and commerce are without doubt ducking and diving to the same tune as sport.

It's sick. It's ill behaviour. Immoral, unethical and incongruent. One big fat juicy lie.

Well, one of the other notable times in past human history that springs to mind, when the echelons of society went all big on themselves was around the time of the Roman Empire. That ended well.

I am however with this particular IAAF debacle, like the majority of posts already, am not in the least surprised; having watched all sport with significant financial investment over the last 20 years or so with growing cynicism, that is currently and frequently being proved correct.

Can't be a surprise to anyone surely.
Given the issues with cycling, fifa etc.
Then add on the Jamaican sprinters, Kenyan runners, etc.......
It all pointed one way, the only surprising bit is that doping seems to be even more organised than in cycling

Good piece on Velonews:

[url= http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/11/news/seven-things-track-and-field-can-learn-from-cycling_388899 ]http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/11/news/seven-things-track-and-field-can-learn-from-cycling_388899[/url]

They say Coe = McQuaid.

Tl;dr
But basically no pudding for Russia?

Putin press conferences should be amusing on this as he blames western lies for this

https://www.rt.com/politics/putin-position-plant-foreman-570/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8957748/Vladimir-Putin-sets-record-for-live-phone-in-as-he-is-confronted-over-democracy.html

Seb Coe getting a pasting on newsnight

I do remember when all the revelations were coming out over the Summer that Coe was in the middle of an election for President of the IAAF and remmeber the press were saying he had to tow the party line of nothing is wrong here to get elected. the thought was that after he was in he could do something about the drug allegations .
I suppose I am ever hopeful that he is a reformer rather than a steady hand for the druggies, but I didnt realise he has been vice-pres for the last 9 years - wasnt he running London 2012 for a fair few of them ?

In the balance of things, athletics are screwed aren't they

This is Jon Snow interview with Coe

"either you were asleep on the job or part of the corruption"
https://twitter.com/SSbike/status/663824681733091328

In the balance of things, athletics are screwed aren't they

Depends what you mean by that. As a sport, it'll be fine. There's too much money and interest for them not to be at the Olympics I reckon.

I suspect that Coe knew what was going on (by rumour if not fact) and in his mind planned to get elected to try and sort things out from the inside but knew he wouldn't get elected if he appeared to be threatening the status quo. Whether that's the right approach and works for the long term better good is debateable.

See that WADA have also called for a ban on Kenyan athletes if they don't improve testing.

Interesting to hear also UKAD complaining about cuts in government funding meaning a reduction in testing. A bit surprised that the level of testing required for a nation to participate isn't mandated by WADA.

"either you were asleep on the job or part of the corruption"

Must watch that interview. You really can't be vice president of an organisation and not be aware. Time for some straight talking by Coe if he wants to come out of this with any credibility.

I suspect that Coe knew what was going on (by rumour if not fact) and in his mind planned to get elected to try and sort things out from the inside

If that is the case why come out with statements about the outgoing president being his "spiritual leader" etc. You'd have expected him to be a lot more cautious.

[quote=MSP opined]It seems that the head of the uk anti doping organisation only thinks that it is something those foreign chaps do. Good to see we have such a relentless bloodhound on the case

You are Putin and I claim my topless picture of you crocodile wrestling

It's politics, isn't it. People get swept up in it and think they're playing the game right and forget that it's not about IAAF but rather about the people actually doing the sport.

Going back to the late seventies/early eighties the east Germans on their state-organised doping programmes spent lots of time in Africa training with the best African runners. Some Finns have admitted to blood doping at the time and the Italians were also known to be blood doping. The yanks were knee deep in dope too. Against all these talented doped-up athletes who dominated middle-distance running at the time?

You are Putin and I claim my topless picture of you crocodile wrestling

junky still in denial I see, at least you actually do have a 100% record on that. Couldn't be our british boys and girls, they just run on pluck and courage.

OH how you persuade me with your excellent use of logic and reason 🙄

FWIW the report also mentions Kenya in the report - I suppose that will allow you to say they are still racist and only targeting "darkies" as well as Commies

I dont doubt there are other issues and other offenders [ inclusing certain sports and countries] but to just claim its a report solely motivated by racism[ and this is why others are not reported] is , frankly, ridiculous and will be likely the Russian position if they bother to deny the overwhelming evidence.

Your the only one mentioning racism, just a sad attempt to deflect from how rotten the sport is to the core.

UKDA could and should have just said that this shows how vigilant they must be, but instead they fall in line with the ring-fencing of the problem and state what good clean boys and girls the brits are. It seems they believe their role is to prove innocence instead of catching the cheats. Just another display of denial, like coe and yourself.

Still not sure what you are accusing me of denying shall I say again i think others are cheating?Perhaps you could be specific?

As for racism you said they only thought "foreign chaps " cheat so you brought it up.

Seb Coe: Ex official of FIFA, ex VP and now Pres of IAAF, ex member of Tory government, last race was alleged to be fixed so he could win...and it's a surprise he's not the wind of change to blow away the stench of corruption?

I'm particularly liking Cookson offering to share the UCI experience on how to clean up a sport. A sport that has never had a doping positive free year, even in the World Tour teams.

A sport that has never had a doping positive free year, even in the World Tour teams

I do remember when all the revelations were coming out over the Summer that Coe was in the middle of an election for President of the IAAF and remmeber the press were saying he had to tow the party line of nothing is wrong here to get elected. the thought was that after he was in he could do something about the drug allegations .
I suppose I am ever hopeful that he is a reformer rather than a steady hand for the druggies, but I didnt realise he has been vice-pres for the last 9 years - wasnt he running London 2012 for a fair few of them ?

IIRC Cookson was around during all the doping too but didn't stop it, but he was overt when bidding for presidency that he was going after the corruption e.g. the minute the vote came through I believe they walked into UCI headquarters and seized all the computers.

So slightly different approach but similar circumstances - get in someone who's been close to the corruption but not actually involved in it, to replace the corrupt leadership. Has to be done by stealth and political means. Time will tell but it's possible Coe had to go very gently to hide his real agenda from the people he was out to get. You never know, he may have secretly commissioned WADA to do the investigation and report, knowing his reputation would take a hit as it was the best way to undermine the incumbents without outright conflict which they may win by playing extremely dirty.

All guesswork on my part but IIRC there's never been a shred of rumour that Coe has ever doped or taken part in any corruption when competing, so his previous character is 100% good?

@kimbers yes I saw Newsnight and Channel 4 news, Coe got an even tougher grilling from Snow than Davies. The interview with the German journalist who broke the story last year was very interesting.

I am of the view that the majority of the wrong doing took place in Russia / other countries with the link to the IAAF being quite limited and specific. I have no doubt Coe had his suspicions about Russia but I also believe he is totally clean. If you are on a path to become IAAF president then there is little incentive to make accusations unless you have evidence or until you are president, then you are in a position to do something about it.

We can judge Coe by how he handles this from this moment forwards. A ban on Russia including the hosting if the World Student Games, participation in the World Indoor Championships and Olymlics and permanent closure of the testing facility in Russia would be a good start.

EDIT

he minute the vote came through I believe they walked into UCI headquarters and seized all the computers.

Xenophobia isn't the same as racism, or even nationalism for that matter.

British cycling sides with the cheats finding excuses for them rather than applying the rules and banning them. An athlete had strange blood hematocrit results including over 50% which meant the rider couldn't race and they whitewashed it. An official stated the rider didn't use drugs when there was no way he could have known unless he'd personally guarded the rider under lock and key and allowed him no visits for the previous month.

Eedit:JUst
because
something
is true
doesn't
mean you
won't
get doen
for libel

An unknown French athlete was very upset when he was declared positive, not because he wasn't but because his elite team mates who had received the same positive result hadn't had their names given to the press and weren't being punished.

The east Germans had a testing programme that was there to make sure that their doped athletes never tested positive in competition. When the wall came down the people running that programme were employed as coaches in Africa, Australia (rising to the highest rank in Australian cycling), The US and who knows where else. The national labs aren't there to stop athletes doping they are there to stop them testing positive in competition. And even if they do test positive there's the plan B of paying off an official to shred the results. The BBC did a programme about this after Atlanta (where many of the US medal winners would have tested positive if an IOC offical hadn't shredded the results - according to the BBC and I have the video somewhere) but developed memory loss when the games were held in London.

@edukator - yes I remember the East European thing very well, the Chinese hired the swimming coaches and suddenly won plenty 😥

If you are on a path to become IAAF president then there is little incentive to make accusations unless you have evidence or until you are president, then you are in a position to do something about it.

Because the second most senior person in the organisation has no power at all. 🙄

Face facts: it happened on his watch.

I have no doubt Coe had his suspicions about Russia but I also believe he is totally clean. If you are on a path to become IAAF president then there is little incentive to make accusations unless you have evidence or until you are president, then you are in a position to do something about it.

his very aggressive attacks on those trying to unearth the corruption dont come across that way at all

exactly the same as we've seen time and again, in football, cycling etc

Nasty, nasty Russians and yet we are Persil white. No really...

I know, crazy that some people who know where cycling has come from will claim that's the case for athletics.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting all UK athletes are doping but I'd be amazed if there aren't a good number who are.

I'll be amazed though if the IAAF doesn't go through exactly what cycling did while ignoring all the potential lessons. Especially as it seems likely that doping is still happening to some extent in cycling.

You've got to admire Dick Pound, he doesn't take many prisoners.

BBC news website headline:

Athletics doping: Kremlin says claims are 'groundless'.

🙂

Kremlin says claims are 'groundless'.

The hilarious thing is the Kremlin's reasoning: Other countries have had just as many +ve tests, so why pick on us?

Erm....

The issue is that you're covering up doping Russia. That's probably behind why the amount of people you have that test positive isn't crazily high.

You've got to admire Dick Pound, he doesn't take many prisoners.

[url= http://www.wired.com/2007/01/pound/ ]This might have something to do with why Dick Pound isn't as naive as Seb Coe and has the fury.[/url]

Nasty, nasty Russians and yet we are Persil white. No really...

Who's saying that?

Regardless, there is a difference between the actions of individuals, and a state-sponsored programme of cheating.

IIRC Cookson was around during all the doping too but didn't stop it

Citation needed please.

and

Because the second most senior person in the organisation has no power at all.

Face facts: it happened on his watch.

So Coe disagreed with his boss but not openly accusing him of cover ups because he would have lost his job.

In context - some years ago my boss was a complete arse, he got found out, I got his job...Sorted out the problems and handed over the business to someone else. It's not that difficult to understand.

great article hugo

Ross Tucker has pulled a lot of interesting bits together [url= http://sportsscientists.com/2015/11/shock-plus-denial-divided-by-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-a-recipe-for-mistrust/ ]here[/url]

IIRC Cookson was around during all the doping too but didn't stop it
Citation needed please.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cookson ]Wikipedia[/url]

Cookson previously served as president of British Cycling from 1997 to 2013, after becoming a member of an emergency committee to rescue it from insolvency in 1996.

I'm not suggesting Cookson did anything underhand at all - just that he was in the governance of cycling and had a relationship with UCI but didn't come out shouting about the corruption which he must have at least had a suspicion of - he was more political than that and playing a long game - almost certainly necessary when you consider what he was up against. The possibility I'm suggesting is that Coe has played a similar game - essentially don't warn your enemy you're coming, keep your cards close to your chest, sneak up quietly and trip then up when they least expect it...

I think that Ross Tucker article nicely sums up how bad it looks on Coe, his actions to date have been shameful, not just biding his time quietly till hes in a position to fix things, but actively trying to dismiss investigations
hes got a lot of work to do to prove he's not been complicit in it all along

If you are on a path to become IAAF president then there is little incentive to make accusations unless you have evidence or until you are president, then you are in a position to do something about it.

If he did not know then he is incompetent if he did know then he id complicit

Which option are you picking for him whilst supporting him?

Nasty, nasty Russians and yet we are Persil white. No really...
Who's saying that?